Brexit discussion thread II

breatheme

To be fair... most tourists are able to drive in a foreign country. Driving commercially is a different thing, however.

First Up

breatheme wrote:

To be fair... most tourists are able to drive in a foreign country. Driving commercially is a different thing, however.

This is trivia that can be sorted at the stroke of a pen.

There are far bigger issues.

Nate--IRL--

First Up wrote: »

This is trivia that can be sorted at the stroke of a pen.

There are far bigger issues.

It will become more than trivia if the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" principle is applied to the exit talks. Or a No-Deal Brexit occurs.

Nate

First Up

Nate--IRL-- wrote:

It will become more than trivia if the "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" principle is applied to the exit talks. Or a No-Deal Brexit occurs.

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

Nody

First Up wrote: »

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

NDLS webpage wrote:

All countries in the EU benefit from a 'mutual recognition' agreement in respect of driving licences.

Want to guess what happens if you leave a group that has "mutual recognition agreement" without an agreement on recognition after leaving of said licenses? Hence yes it is a Brexit issue and it is simply another among a myriad of small things that are piling up in the "hard brexit will be no issue as we trade on WTO terms" pile that's UK press simply don't discuss but will have a direct impact on day 1 on a hard "no deal because WTO terms is fine" Brexit which so many Tories started to push for. A no deal brexit goes so beyond trade deals and WTO terms it's not even funny how much stuff that's ignored about it and the implications it will bring.

Or do you perhaps want to discuss the Astra Zenica pills sold to China under a EU trade agreement instead and what happens after Brexit seeing how the department of international trade has only ONE person with any noticeable trade deal experience?

Really Interested

First Up wrote: »

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

I would think you are correct

https://www.global-regulation.com/translation/switzerland/2976597/rs-0.741.11-international-convention-of-24-april-1926-relating-to-vehicular-traffic-%2528with-annexes%2529.html

Requirements for car drivers to qualify internationally to drive an automobile on the public highway art. 6. the driver of a motor vehicle must have the qualities that give a sufficient guarantee for public safety.
Regarding international traffic, no person shall drive an automobile without having received, for this purpose, an authorization issued by a competent authority or by an association empowered by it once he has demonstrated his ability.
Permission may be granted to persons under

The UK is signed up to the conventions on Road Traffic 1926 1949 and 1968, as are most if not all of the EU27.

Really Interested

Nody wrote: »

Want to guess what happens if you leave a group that has "mutual recognition agreement" without an agreement on recognition after leaving of said licenses? Hence yes it is a Brexit issue and it is simply another among a myriad of small things that are piling up in the "hard brexit will be no issue as we trade on WTO terms" pile that's UK press simply don't discuss but will have a direct impact on day 1 on a hard "no deal because WTO terms is fine" Brexit which so many Tories started to push for.

Or do you perhaps want to discuss the Aztra Zenica pills sold to China under a EU trade agreement instead and what happens after Brexit?

There are other treaties in existence

https://www.global-regulation.com/translation/switzerland/2976597/rs-0.741.11-international-convention-of-24-april-1926-relating-to-vehicular-traffic-%2528with-annexes%2529.html

https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsV.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-1&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg5&clang=_en

https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&clang=_en

Nate--IRL--

First Up wrote: »

Who can drive where on what licence is not an EU/Brexit issue.

It is is very much a EU/Brexit issue. One of the millions of "tiny" issues that are the whole bloody point of the exit talks to resolve before they leave.

Since the UK will be leaving the EEA, you'll find that Directive 2006/126/EEC no longer applies to the UK. So, there will be no agreement on the validity of UK licences in the EEA, or vice versa, in the event of a No-Deal Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence

EDIT:- I see above, that I'm wrong, it is not the only treaty applicable.

Nate

Really Interested

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It is is very much a EU/Brexit issue. One of the millions of "tiny" issues that are the whole bloody point of the exit talks to resolve before they leave.

Since the UK will be leaving the EEA, you'll find that Directive 2006/126/EEC no longer applies to the UK. So, there will be no agreement on the validity of UK licences in the EEA, or vice versa, in the event of a No-Deal Brexit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence

Nate

Did you even bother to read my previous post?

Nody

Really Interested wrote: »

I would think you are correct

https://www.global-regulation.com/translation/switzerland/2976597/rs-0.741.11-international-convention-of-24-april-1926-relating-to-vehicular-traffic-%2528with-annexes%2529.html

Requirements for car drivers to qualify internationally to drive an automobile on the public highway art. 6. the driver of a motor vehicle must have the qualities that give a sufficient guarantee for public safety.
Regarding international traffic, no person shall drive an automobile without having received, for this purpose, an authorization issued by a competent authority or by an association empowered by it once he has demonstrated his ability.
Permission may be granted to persons under

The UK is signed up to the conventions on Road Traffic 1926 1949 and 1968, as are most if not all of the EU27.

Sorry but you are wrong; it is up to each EU country to decide which non EU licenses they recognise or not.

Recognition of EU driving licences issued in exchange for a non‑EU licence

If you have an EU driving licence that was issued in exchange for a non‑EU licence, and you wish to move to another EU country with your converted licence, you should be aware that your new licence may not be recognised there. This is up to each EU country.

You need to check with the local authorities in your new country what the conditions are for recognising non-EU licences.

Directly from EU itself. Hence short of every single EU country implementing rules to recognise it by Brexit the UK license is not valid for any vehicle category.

Nate--IRL--

Really Interested wrote: »

Did you even bother to read my previous post?

No - I was typing mine.

Nate

Really Interested

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but you are wrong; it is up to each EU country to decide which non EU licenses they recognise or not.

Directly from EU itself. Hence short of every single EU country implementing rules to recognise it by Brexit the UK license is not valid for any vehicle category.

Yes that is EU law for EU members, but that does not do away with the international conventions that most if not all of the EU are also signed upto.

There is EU Directives on for example mobile telecommunications, but once UK gone they no loner apply but all the other internation rules will apply same for air travel and sea travel.

Really Interested

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

No - I was typing mine.

Nate

Well you can see there are international conventions that will apply which the UK has signed upto.

Rain Ascending

solodeogloria wrote: »

I seriously doubt that British standards in respect to driving tests are more lenient than other member states.

Moreover I doubt it could be applied retrospectively to licenses issued while the UK was still a member.

I think inventing fear stories or Armageddon scenarios without citation to a reputable source is just empty fearmongering.

This raises a number of interesting points. Firstly, that the UK continues to apply relevant standards that meet, say, EU specs is irrelevant. Post Brexit, the UK is a third country as far as the EU is concerned and meeting EU standards does not grant automatic recognition. It has to be renegotiated again.

Secondly I'd be highly surprised if overseas recognition of driving licenses is a permanent thing attached to a license at the time of issuance, as you imply. A UK license remains a UK license and the UK becomes a third country on Brexit and the license is no longer recognized within the EU. That's the simple logic.

Now like everything else, I could be wrong because I've missed some detail -- because your last point is correct: citations are needed. But the general principles outlined above hold unless you can show a contrary citation to say otherwise.

Speaking of citations, the good news is that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit there is still some mutual recognition of licenses, not by EU law, but by the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic.

This is not fear-mongering, but analysis.

Really Interested

Rain Ascending wrote: »

This raises a number of interesting points. Firstly, that the UK continues to apply relevant standards that meet, say, EU specs is irrelevant. Post Brexit, the UK is a third country as far as the EU is concerned and meeting EU standards does not grant automatic recognition. It has to be renegotiated again.

Secondly I'd be highly surprised if overseas recognition of driving licenses is a permanent thing attached to a license at the time of issuance, as you imply. A UK license (it's not an EU license by the way, the UK is the issuer) remains a UK license and the UK becomes a third country on Brexit and the license is no longer recognized within the EU. That's the simple logic.

Now like everything else, I could be wrong because I've missed some detail -- because your last point is correct: citations are needed. But the general principles outlined above hold unless you can show a contrary citation to say otherwise.

Speaking of citations, the good news is that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit there is still some mutual recognition of licenses, not by EU law, but by the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic.

This is not fear-mongering, but analysis.

There are 3 conventions 1926, 1949 and 1968. Which deal with the licences of each country that has signed up.

Nody

Really Interested wrote: »

Yes that is EU law for EU members, but that does not do away with the international conventions that most if not all of the EU are also signed upto.

There is EU Directives on for example mobile telecommunications, but once UK gone they no loner apply but all the other internation rules will apply same for air travel and sea travel.

And the EU law states that each EU country can choose which non EU licenses they wish to recognise and under what requirements. If UK is not on the list of approved countries then by definition UK licenses is no longer valid. As an example here's Ireland list of recognised countries to get an Irish license which is a legal requirement after living 1 year in Ireland. If UK is not on that list they have to redo the driving test in Ireland and a UK resident stays over a year their license is no longer valid even as international driving license (which those treaties refer to).

If you are not from any of the above countries, (for example The United States), and you hold a national driving licence or an international driving permit from your own country, you may drive in Ireland for the duration of your temporary visit (up to 12 months).

If your stay in Ireland will be more than 12 months you can apply for an Irish driving licence but you will need to go through the full driver licensing procedure. You must first pass a driver theory test , apply for a learner permit, complete a course of Essential Driver Training(EDT) and pass your driving test in Ireland. If you pass your driving test, you can then apply for a full Irish driving licence.

So no deal no driving. If they get an international driving license they are limited in what they can do and how many drivers do you think will have it ready in time for a hard brexit to continue to drive between application time, cost etc.? Personally I can already see the Sun headlines about EU punishing UK drivers over foreigners if it kicks in which is also why this is very much a Brexit related issue.

Really Interested

Nody wrote: »

And the EU law states that each EU country can choose which non EU licenses they wish to recognise and under what requirements. If UK is not on the list of approved countries then by definition UK licenses is no longer valid. As an example here's Ireland list of recognised countries to get an Irish license which is a legal requirement after living 1 year in Ireland. If UK is not on that list they have to redo the driving test in Ireland and a UK resident stays over a year their license is no longer valid even as international driving license (which those treaties refer to).

So no deal no driving. If they get an international driving license they are limited in what they can do and how many drivers do you think will have it ready in time for a hard brexit to continue to drive between application time, cost etc.?

Have you even read anything about IDP, EU law first there after the International conventions, UK and most if not all the EU27 have signed up which means they recognise a IDP once it is issued by the relevant body and covers the vehicle you are driving, its extra paperwork, but the law as it stands any driver from UK with IDP can drive in any country that are party of the 1926, 1949 and 1968 conventions.

A IDP can be got within hours.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driver-documents-required-for-international-road-haulage

"International driving permit

The International Driving Permit (IDP) shows the details of national driving licences in other languages. It allows foreign officials to confirm the identity of the permit holder, the driving category entitlements held and their validity periods. The IDP supports, but does not replace, your photocard or paper driving licence. You should still carry your full UK driving licence and passport with you at all times.

IDPs are issued by the major motoring organisations and the Post Office:

read about and apply for an IDP on the AA website
read about and apply for an IDP on the RAC website
read about and apply for an IDP on the Post Office website

You don’t need to be a member of either organisation to apply for an IDP, but you must be resident in the UK, over 18 years of age and have passed a driving test."

Nate--IRL--

Really Interested wrote: »

Well you can see there are international conventions that will apply which the UK has signed upto.

Yes - I had edited the post as soon I saw yours

Nate

Rain Ascending

Really Interested wrote: »

There are 3 conventions 1926, 1949 and 1968. Which deal with the licences of each country that has signed up.

And, just to be a pedant, Ireland hasn't signed up to the 1968 convention. According to Wikipedia, the UK abides by this one, but as a non-state party, whatever that means!! Luckily, the provisions of the '49 convention seem adequate to be for basic recognition of at least the International Driving Permits.

Coming back to the Brexit debate, this highlights just how convoluted things will get with even simple issues like this one. There will be a number of unforeseen or ignored consequences, resulting in some nasty surprises. Dealing with them gets infinitely worse in the non-deal Brexit scenario, because they generally will take both sides to sort out.

Walking away from negotiations is not an option.

Really Interested

Rain Ascending wrote: »

And, just to be a pedant, Ireland hasn't signed up to the 1968 convention. According to Wikipedia, the UK abides by this one, but as a non-state party, whatever that means!! Luckily, the provisions of the '49 convention seem adequate to be for basic recognition of at least the International Driving Permits.

Coming back to the Brexit debate, this highlights just how convoluted things will get with even simple issues like this one. There will be a number of unforeseen or ignored consequences, resulting in some nasty surprises. Dealing with them gets infinitely worse in the non-deal Brexit scenario, because they generally will take both sides to sort out.

Walking away from negotiations is not an option.

https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetailsV.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-1&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg5&clang=_en

Ireland is a Accession state since 1962

UK ratified in 1957

Reservations
Ireland
"1. Annexes 1 and 2 are excluded from Ireland's application of the Convention.
"2. In relation to annex 6, the number of trailers drawn by a mechanically propelled vehicle may not exceed that permitted under Irish legislation."

I agree it is complex, but the UK has made its choice and due to certain people actully wanting no deal and many of those people are in serious positions i worry it will be no deal.

ambro25

The problem is not the validity of UK licenses in the EU (and reciprocally) post-Brexit by virtue of some treaty or other, for transient visits. It will be their treatment by national authorities and insurers for foreign-qualified residents.

Yes, you can drive a hire car in the UK for a week on a US license. But try relying on your US license to drive once you reside in the UK. Same issue for UK license holders in the EU post-Brexit (and reciprocally).

FWIW, the informal off-the-record advice in Lux atm, is for my wife to swap her UK license stat once we've moved over there (by Jan 18, after spending this past week over there meeting the future boss and team), so she'll benefit from whatever grandfathering effect is implemented in due course, retroactively. Same advice came from the Prefecture over the border. So whichever side of the border we end up living on, her UK license is going. Quick.

Firblog

Nody wrote: »

A

So no deal no driving.

Surely you are not correct here, you posted the rules regarding recognition of non EU licences earlier in the thread.

You need to check with the local authorities in your new country what the conditions are for recognising non-EU licences.

Surely going by this, deal or no deal, the driving licences will not be recognised?

ECO_Mental

Fratton Fred wrote: »

barely and only a recent occurance

But isn't that the whole reason behind the EU.....40 years ago ireland was in the **** a backwards dump! We took the EU for billions and billions built roads improved our infrastructure etc etc. Our standard of living is miles and miles better we trade freely with the rest of Europe, go on holidays with out any hassle.

I really don't see why you think we would be better off than err.....nobody (Switzerland Norway etc still pay into the EU)

Peregrinus

The driving licence issue is an example of a much more general problem.

It seems to me that there are actually two different ways in which a “no-deal” Brexit could eventuate.

If there is a Brexit deal, there will be big headline issues (like the exit payment, like continuing reciprocal rights for one anothers’ citizens, like the Irish border) that get dealt with, but there will also be some catch-all clauses that say, basically, for all the matters not explicitly dealt with above things pretty much continue as they are until one side or other changes them. So, mutual recognition of driving licenses will continue until somebody stops it. This will be the Brexit deal counterpart of the UK’s misleadingly-named “Great Repeal Bill” which will provide that the bulk of EU law continues to apply in the UK unless and until the UK changes or disapplies it.

Those catch-all clauses do an enormous amount of work, and if there isn’t going to be a grand deal with catchalls like that, then you need to have a whole host of mini-deals to continue various existing arrangements that will lapse on Brexit.

In other words, you need a no-deal deal, addressing by agreement the consequences of the fact that there is no grand Brexit deal.

So, if the UK (or indeed the EU) decides in, say, March 2018 that there will be no Brexit deal, then both sides can turn their energies and their attentions to a no-deal deal, dealing continuing recognition of driving licenses, landing rights for aircraft, etc, etc, etc - there will be hundreds of issues to be addressed like this.

But if both sides remain focussed on a Brexit deal up to the last minute, and then talks fail or break down, there will not only be no deal, but there will also be no no-deal deal and, yup, hundreds of perfectly satisfactory and uncontroversial arrangements will lapse, with resultant confusion, uncertainty, dislocation, etc.

Rain Ascending

Peregrinus wrote: »

It seems to me that there are actually two different ways in which a “no-deal” Brexit could eventuate.

If there is a Brexit deal, there will be big headline issues (like the exit payment, like continuing reciprocal rights for one anothers’ citizens, like the Irish border) that get dealt with, but there will also be some catch-all clauses that say, basically, for all the matters not explicitly dealt with above things pretty much continue as they are until one side or other changes them. So, mutual recognition of driving licenses will continue until somebody stops it. This will be the Brexit deal counterpart of the UK’s misleadingly-named “Great Repeal Bill” which will provide that the bulk of EU law continues to apply in the UK unless and until the UK changes or disapplies it.

Those catch-all clauses do an enormous amount of work, and if there isn’t going to be a grand deal with catchalls like that, then you need to have a whole host of mini-deals to continue various existing arrangements that will lapse on Brexit.

In other words, you need a no-deal deal, addressing by agreement the consequences of the fact that there is no grand Brexit deal.

So, if the UK (or indeed the EU) decides in, say, March 2018 that there will be no Brexit deal, then both sides can turn their energies and their attentions to a no-deal deal, dealing continuing recognition of driving licenses, landing rights for aircraft, etc, etc, etc - there will be hundreds of issues to be addressed like this.

Here's my take on this, which may or may not match your perception, but what you term the "grand Brexit deal" can have really only one model, namely something very close to the Norwegian EEA model. The current UK government position appears to be very close to this for the transition period, but rejects it outright as the long-term landing zone for the UK.

Labour, on the other hand, seem to be angling for a long-term Norwegian/EEA-like arrangement, but with modified terms around freedom of movement. I doubt that would fly, but you never know, some fudge might be possible.

Coming back to the current government's position of rejecting the EEA, then what you describe as the "no-deal deal" looks the more likely option. There is talk of a 1000+ page agreement taking the full length of the transition period to negotiate.

It is also clear that many no-deal Brexit proponents are also assuming that a no-deal crash out of the EU will rapidly result in a (perhaps slimmed down) no-deal deal. Quite how this will come about without the EU gently reminding the UK of the outstanding Phase 1 issues that need to be cleared up remains in the realm of fantasy.

solodeogloria

Rain Ascending wrote: »

This raises a number of interesting points. Firstly, that the UK continues to apply relevant standards that meet, say, EU specs is irrelevant. Post Brexit, the UK is a third country as far as the EU is concerned and meeting EU standards does not grant automatic recognition. It has to be renegotiated again.

Secondly I'd be highly surprised if overseas recognition of driving licenses is a permanent thing attached to a license at the time of issuance, as you imply. A UK license remains a UK license and the UK becomes a third country on Brexit and the license is no longer recognized within the EU. That's the simple logic.

Now like everything else, I could be wrong because I've missed some detail -- because your last point is correct: citations are needed. But the general principles outlined above hold unless you can show a contrary citation to say otherwise.

Speaking of citations, the good news is that even in the event of a no-deal Brexit there is still some mutual recognition of licenses, not by EU law, but by the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic.

This is not fear-mongering, but analysis.

Good morning!

This isn't analysis but baseless speculation.

A British licence at present is an EU licence. It is issued in the same format as other licences within the EU. Here's an example:


It is also at the discretion of a member state as to which non-EU licences it recognises (on a cursory glance Ireland has a different list to the UK). There can be exchange relationships set up. I doubt two things. Firstly that automatically that this will be revoked because it is in the interests of both parties to see this maintained, or moreover that most countries will actually remove the UK from the list of non-EU licences that can be swapped.

At the moment the trajectory is moving towards a deal between both parties. This is why we should simply keep calm and let the negotiators work and try not to contrive fear stories when there isn't even the slightest shred of evidence that this is a likely outcome.

I know it's Halloween tomorrow but we really should hold off on this type of baseless fearmongering.

The onus is on the one making the claim to back it up.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mickoneill31

For once, I slightly agree with Solo.

If there's no deal and licenses are a casualty then I'm sure it's up to the individual countries to update their lists. We have an agreement with Australia for license exchange for example, we didn't involve the EU.
Like the page I linked to many posts ago anybody can drive in Ireland with a valid driving license for up to 12 months.

I'll quote the NDLS page as I think many people didn't read it.
"As a visitor to Ireland you can drive on a driving licence from any state outside the EU/EEA for up to a year provided the driving licence is current and valid."
So I think that this covers the truck drivers that the original post alluded to.

And our Gardai barely enforce the laws we do have so having somebody driving on a legal UK license is probably not going to kick off an investigation to see if the driver has been here for > 365 days.

As for the licence exchange program I presume that all that requires is two beaureaucrats sitting down and saying if our citizens can exchange our license for an Irish one we'll let your citizens do the same. It's not Brexit level negotiations here, it's exactly the same level benefit for both recipients.
I'm sure I'm simplifying there. Real world and beaureaucrat world are two different things.

Peregrinus

mickoneill31 wrote: »

For once, I slightly agree with Solo.

If there's no deal and licenses are a casualty then I'm sure it's up to the individual countries to update their lists. We have an agreement with Australia for license exchange for example, we didn't involve the EU . . .

Yes. I think the point is that we will have to do it. We will have to make whatever statutory instruments or regulations, or do whatever official acts are necessary, in order to reinstate the recognition of UK licences as a matter of Irish law. And 26 other EU member states will have to do the same. It won't happen just because we want it to happen, or because we recognise that it ought to happen; some Minister will have to make it happen by having the appropriate instrument drawn up, and executed, and published in Iris Oifigiuil, included in official circulars, or whatever.

It's not a big deal, but it is a deal. And it will be one of many, many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of similar steps by each of the EU-27 and by the Commission that have to be taken to keep things running smoothly if there isn't a treaty with an overarching provision of EU law to do this in general terms.

In other words, "no deal" is a lot of work - low level work, perhaps, but a lot of it. It'll have to start well in advance of Brexit day if there is to be any hope of its being done by Brexit day, which I why I think there's a distinction between a "no deal" either adopted as policy or recognised on all sides as likely months ahead of Brexit-day, and a "no deal" which is the result of the UK crashing out when talks break down late in the piece.

Calina

For me, the whole question of licences aren't directly important in themselves. It's that they are just one item on a list of things which need to be looked at at some point.

The wider problem for me is that sometimes, you get the impression that the UK doesn't have an overview of all the things which are likely to be affected here. It's very easy to get that impression when you remember, at the outset, David Davis thought the UK would be able to negotiate individual trade deals with individual member states of the EU.

The number of things that just weren't thought about or examined in detail at the outset is just very high. Things like driving licences are tangible to most people who own a car.

What is interesting is that when you raise these thing, people say "well, international driving licence" for driving, or "visas" for freedom of movement. The point they miss is that this introduces as layer of friction. Sure you can go down to your post office and pick up one if no one wants to let you drive on your holidays without one, and you know, if the driving licence system is adequately digitised maybe you can even do it online. But it's one more thing to have to deal with when recently, you didn't have to worry about it at all. I don't have to exchange my Irish licence here any more. This is how frictionless the whole process is getting for being a citizen of an EU member state. The UK is going the other way, arguably because a few of them want to but at no point have I ever had the impression that anyone even thought about these kinds of ramifications during the course of the debate.

Multiply that by tens of thousands of small things which individually sound simple and small and remember that somewhere someone needs to be making a complete list of them. Per various reports this week, UK ministers aren't even reading their own impact reports.

The issue is how many other driving licence type questions are there that someone needs to look at and go, that's okay, that's not okay.

I'm all

murphaph

Really Interested wrote: »

Well you can see there are international conventions that will apply which the UK has signed upto.

These conventions cover temporary use of your domestic licence whilst abroad. The person holding a UK licence and living elsewhere in the EU should seriously consider exchanging it for a local licence before Brexit day because it will not be valid as the holder does not live in the UK and is not a temporary visitor to the country they live in.

Think of any 3rd country licence that retains validity after the holder moves to the EU. There aren't any. You generally have 6 months max after arriving to get a local licence. The UK licence will be a third country licence after Brexit so the clever thing to do is apply beforehand for a local one.

It's trivial to agree mutual recognition but if nothing is agreed until everything is agreed...

ambro25

solodeogloria wrote: »

I doubt two things. Firstly that automatically that this will be revoked because it is in the interests of both parties to see this maintained,

The recognition of a UK license to have effect as any other EU(27) license will be automatically revoked by operation of law in case of no-deal crash-out, is the point.

Meaning that, come no-deal Brexit day, any UK license-holding EU27 resident would cease to be entitled to drive and cease to be insured (-subject to respective insurance contract clauses), until and unless the EU27 member State in which they reside implements relevant updating/amending legislation restoring that recognition.

There is nothing to preclude any EU27 Member State from taking pre-emptive action in the matter, of course, and updating/amending legislation early. But I guess they are not going to get started until the UK's position about reciprocal EU/UK nationals rights (of which driving licenses is a part, I expect) is settled one way or the other.

solodeogloria wrote: »

or moreover that most countries will actually remove the UK from the list of non-EU licences that can be swapped.

The UK is currently an EU Member State and not included on those lists by reason of same. It cannot be removed from a list in which it is not included.

The UK would need including on those lists in the absence of an agreement (encompassing the issue, amongst so many others)prior to March 2019, which is exactly what Peregrinus and others explained.

Incidentally, and just to compound Calina's post above, it is the exact same issue (EU law ceasing to apply, meaning EU law-embedded mutual recognition of qualifications and other EU-mandatory conditions ceasing to apply) which would result in my removal from the respective official registers of qualified professionals maintained by the Irish patent office and the EUropean IP Office, if I stayed in the UK come Brexit day (and in this case, unlike driving license, regardless of whether there is a deal or not by that time, or afterwards). Just another real-life example amongst so many others (hundreds, if not thousands, of them indeed).

Which is now, thankfully, a redundant personal issue. Just got to get moved and my British Mrs settled with all procedural t's crossed and i's dotted before crash-out day. So long as it happens after Q1 2018, we're good

First Up

ambro25 wrote:

The recognition of a UK license to have effect as any other EU(27) license will be automatically revoked by operation of law in case of no-deal crash-out, is the point.

EU licences are mutually recognised. When the UK leaves there may be some paperwork needed for Brits residing in an EU country but I don't expect them to be treated any differently or any worse than Swiss, Norwegian or any other non-EU country. They certainly won't be thrown off the road.

LeinsterDub

The British government’s attempt to lobby individual EU leaders in the run-up to the recent crunch EU summit, where member states were to judge the progress of the negotiations, actively damaged Theresa May’s hopes of a better outcome, the Guardian has learned.

A secret plan had been drawn up under which the EU leaders would have made the surprise and highly symbolic move of stating in their conclusions on the day of the European council meeting that they would take into account Britain’s positions as they announced their intention to scope out their ideas on a post-Brexit transition period and trading relationship

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/29/uks-pre-summit-push-to-divide-and-rule-eu-27-impeded-brexit-talks

An other own goal for team Brexit. Surely they would of known the united front is a core EU strategy and to undermine it was silly. At the end of the day even if it worked every member state has a a veto a divided EU actually doesn't benefit the UK.

ambro25

First Up wrote: »

EU licences are mutually recognised. When the UK leaves there may be some paperwork needed for Brits residing in an EU country but I don't expect them to be treated any differently or any worse than Swiss, Norwegian or any other non-EU country.

Which is exactly what I posted

First Up wrote: »

They certainly won't be thrown off the road.

They will be, if their UK license ceases to entitle them to drive and/or voids their insurance cover as a result of voided recognition (i.e. under a no-deal Brexit scenario), whilever there is lack of legal certainty about the recognition of that UK license in the EU27 country in which they reside.

Same as seen in innumerable UK TV cop shows wherein third party nationals (usually, from some African or Middle Eastern extraction) stopped at the side of the road get told by police officers that their foreign non-EU27 driving license does not entitle them to drive in the UK whilst residing there, their driving without a valid UK license is a voiding condition of their UK insurance contract, and that they are therefore guilty of driving without a valid UK insurance.

I have reasonable first-hand idea of the issue: I've lived in the UK and Ireland for over 2 decades and driven and been insured all along on a French driving license (cumulatively, I've probably driven RHDs for longer than LHDs by now :pac:), and walked my US brother-in-law through exchanging his US license for a UK one (automatics only) last year. He used to drive artics long-haul in the US before he immigrated into the UK, yet he was not allowed to exchange his US HGV into a UK one (without a full retest).

No fearmongering in that at all, just bog-standard analysis of context-specific causes and consequences.

First Up

ambro25 wrote:

They will be, if their UK license ceases to entitle them to drive and/or voids their insurance cover as a result of voided recognition (i.e. under a no-deal Brexit scenario), whilever there is lack of legal certainty about the recognition of that UK license in the EU27 country in which they reside.

There are procedures for foreign licence holders to use their own licence temporarily (usually a year) and to exchange it for - or otherwise acquire - a local licence. These procedures will be available to British licence holders after Brexit.

Nate--IRL--

First Up wrote: »

EU licences are mutually recognised. When the UK leaves there may be some paperwork needed for Brits residing in an EU country but I don't expect them to be treated any differently or any worse than Swiss, Norwegian or any other non-EU country. They certainly won't be thrown off the road.

Just a note that the relevant laws apply to the EEA not just the EU.

Nate

Calina

First Up wrote: »

There are procedures for foreign licence holders to use their own licence temporarily (usually a year) and to exchange it for - or otherwise acquire - a local licence. These procedures will be available to British licence holders after Brexit.

I think you're missing the point. These are the kind of details which need to be agreed and written down rather than anyone taking it for granted that it'll be grand. They are details which need to be ironed out.

Taking it for granted that these details will be ironed out is a huge risk in the context of a discussion which also includes crashing out with exit or transition agreements.

These procedures exist because they were agreed. But many of the agreements underpinning things like driving licences may disappear in March 2019 if people don't actively look at them. So the question is "on what grounds can you state categorically that these procedures will be available", not just in terms of driving licences but mutual recognition of qualifications (amongst other things) and arrangements to export pharmaceuticals to name just 3 examples which have cropped up as areas where people have a very real concern that they will be facing a vacuum.

What we are discussing is the need to ensuring that agreements continue to exist. It's not just about driving licences. It'ss about thousands of things which you and I may not have thought about because we don't know about them. Ambro25 has mentioned several times the impact Brexit has on him directly. One of my qualifications is a UK qualification as well and I do not know what happens to mutual recognition of that post Brexit because there are no indications.

The UK voted out to be out, to set its own rules etc etc etc. If those rules and regulations do not align with EU related rules and regulations, then it will be very difficult to make a case for regulatory equivalence

You're getting hung up on driving licences. But it's just an example of many, many things which I strongly suspect haven't even occurred to the Liam Foxes and David Davises of this world. After all, the idea that the UK might be out of Erasmus came as a metric shock to people last year. And the response was "oh we'll just negotiate back into that".

How many things have to be renegotiated and reagreed?

ambro25

First Up wrote: »

There are procedures for foreign licence holders to use their own licence temporarily (usually a year) and to exchange it for - or otherwise acquire - a local licence. These procedures will be available to British licence holders after Brexit.

As already long explained by others before me, these procedures are contingent on the inclusion of the third party country that issued the driving license on a list maintained by the EU27 Member State.

In the absence of relevant legislative provisions inherent to a 'deal' (which is the scenario originally posited in this whole driving license thing), then "these procedures will be available to British licence holders after Brexit" if the UK gets put on the relevant list of non-EU/non-EEA countries, to the license of which such a facility is made available, by each EU27 Member State.

Example (France) and the current list is here.

The UK ("Royaume-Uni") is not in that list, currently it falls under the 'EU Member State' entry.

If the UK crashes out with no deal, and thus becomes a third party country, it would need a new agreement and then including the list.

Between Brexit day and then, UK driving licenses would be deemed invalid, UK driving license holders would have to take the full French theory + practice tests within 12 months, with carrying a personal liability risk all along.

Exchanging a foreign driver's licence in France

France has reciprocal arrangements with a number of countries – including Switzerland, Australia, South Africa and some states in the US and provinces in Canada. These allow citizens of other countries who have lived in France for less than one year to exchange their existing driver’s licence for its French counterpart, without having to pass a test in France. Here’s a list of countries with agreements in place. You can also check with the French consular authority for your country to confirm.

If your country doesn't have an agreement with France, you will have to get a French licence after 12 months by passing both the practical and theoretical French driving tests.

For certain vehicle licences, such as heavy vehicles, check with your region if it's excluded and will require a test to get the French licence equivalent.

Many insurance companies can issue you a policy with a non-EU driving license. But be aware: if you have an accident and the company verifies later that you were driving with an invalid license, you may be liable for damages.

I really don't understand why the above (which is all posited in the context of a no-deal Brexit) is causing so many issue-taking posts. It's just plain common sense, in the context of very long-established systems.

If there's no crash-out Brexit, then it's all redundant of course.

First Up

Calina wrote:

I think you're missing the point. These are the kind of details which need to be agreed and written down rather than anyone taking it for granted that it'll be grand. They are details which need to be ironed out.

There isn't a point to miss. No country's licence holders are banned from driving in the EU.

As EU citizens, UK licence holders have reciprocal rights in other EU member states. When they leave, they will simply revert to the terms that already apply to foreign nationals from non-EU countries unless both sides agree to keep things as they are.

The worst that will happen is UK licence holders are treated like other non EU nationals.

Calina

First Up wrote: »

There isn't a point to miss. No country's licence holders are banned from driving in the EU.

As EU citizens, UK licence holders have reciprocal rights in other EU member states. When they leave, they will simply revert to the terms that already apply to foreign nationals from non-EU countries unless both sides agree to keep things as they are.

The worst that will happen is UK licence holders are treated like other non EU nationals.

First, read ambro25's post directly above yours.

Secondly there isn't a generic this is what happens if you are nonEU. Some countries are privileged and some are not. You could expect that the UK might get privileged treatment from its past friends in the EU - because this is not an EU competence - but this needs to be written down and agreed. You cannot and should not take it for granted.

And this is true for a lot of different things which have hitherto been agreed at an EU level for EU members. The UK ceases to be a member, then a lot of details about a lot of things need to be sorted out.

Ireland has special conditions for 14 countries regarding driving licence exchange. There are significantly more than 14 non-EU countries and those countries that are not from those 14, well they have to do the driver training procedure. The UK needs to be added to that list by agreement. This is not necessarily an EU level agreement btw. Of course if they stay in the EEA, that would sort a lot of problems out but they don't seem willing to consider that in the UK atm.

First Up

Calina wrote:

And this is true for a lot of different things which have hitherto been agreed at an EU level for EU members. The UK ceases to be a member, then a lot of details about a lot of things need to be sorted out.

There are things that are entirely connected to the UK's membership of the EU and it is correct that all of these have to be addressed on a case by case basis.

Driving licences is not one of them. There are agreements, conventions and procedures for people driving in countries other than their own. After Brexit, the UK may move to a different procedure than at present and EU drivers in the UK will do the same.

That's all.

Calina

First Up wrote: »

There are things that are entirely connected to the UK's membership of the EU and it is correct that all of these have to be addressed on a case by case basis.

Driving licences is not one of them. There are agreements, conventions and procedures for people driving in countries other than their own. After Brexit, the UK may move to a different procedure than at present and EU drivers in the UK will do the same.

That's all.

But this needs to be agreed. At present it is not.

breatheme

Can we please stop talking about licenses?
Non-EU licences are actually not EU policy and every member state is free to deal with them as they wish. The UK will probably have to agree with the EU-27, deal or no deal.
As tourists, they'll definitely be able to drive.

Sam Russell

breatheme wrote: »

Can we please stop talking about licenses?
Non-EU licences are actually not EU policy and every member state is free to deal with them as they wish. The UK will probably have to agree with the EU-27, deal or no deal.
As tourists, they'll definitely be able to drive.

Driving licences is just a typical issue that will arise following an ill thought out exit. Much more pertinent will be insurance for drivers. The UK will be back to the old Green Card.

ambro25

breatheme wrote: »

Can we please stop talking about licenses?

Personally, I never mind stopping to talk about any point, once it has been conceded or has lost its topical relevance in the course of the discussion.

But, personally still, please do not expect me to ignore any hand-waving or diminishing "ah it'll all be grand"-type replies, to posts raising genuine Brexit-causes issues, be they big or small.

Because that's exactly how the whole clusterf*** started in the first place, that's exactly what needed combatting in anger from the get-go of the campaign before the referendum, and what (obviously) still needs combatting in anger to date.

Which, hopefully, is fair enough

First Up

ambro25 wrote:

Because that's exactly how the whole clusterf*** started in the first place, that's exactly what needed combatting in anger from the get-go of the campaign before the referendum, and what (obviously) still needs combatting in anger to date.

Brexit will be a nightmare and a disaster but driving licences are not going to be a problem. There is plenty of real stuff to look at, without such distractions.

Gerry T

And when will the UK let their negotiators start their work. The UK knows it needs more progress on the 3 brexit items before negotiations can start, but the UK keeps stalling. Which must be a tactic they fell gives an advantage, for the life of me I can't see it.

As for driving licenses I don't see it as a large ticket item and it's something that will be sorted quickly. 6 or 7 months should do it.

murphaph

First Up wrote: »

Brexit will be a nightmare and a disaster but driving licences are not going to be a problem. There is plenty of real stuff to look at, without such distractions.

Driving licences are a real issue. You're looking at it from the perspective of a UK tourist visiting the EU, which to my mind should not pose any problem.

The issue is UK licence holders who will be living elsewhere in the EU on Brexit day. The legal framework that recognises their UK licences as equivalent to a domestic one will vanish overnight. The UK licence will immediately be a third country licence.

The individual 27 member states and the EEA states will need to amend their domestic legislation if they wish to allow licence exchange with the UK.... among a whole host of other things.

Even if they do, very few EU countries allow a straight exchange for anything other than simple category B from third countries. HGV licences for example are rarely if ever accepted for exchange by any EU country I know.

ambro25

Calina wrote: »

What we are discussing is the need to ensuring that agreements continue to exist. It's not just about driving licences. It's about thousands of things which you and I may not have thought about because we don't know about them. Ambro25 has mentioned several times the impact Brexit has on him directly.One of my qualifications is a UK qualification as well and I do not know what happens to mutual recognition of that post Brexit because there are no indications.

That may (may, not will) be resolved either through-

• an UK-EU deal, if there is one and if that deal has the relevant statutory scope (encompassing your qualification, and activity sector if relevant); and/or
• your host country's own regulatory regime and due process

In my case, I was actually facing two unknowns-

• Ireland: Sections 106 and 108(2) Patents Act 1992, and Rules 8(1)(c) and (d) Register of Patent Agent Rules 2015; and Sections 86 and 88(1) Irish Trade Marks Act 1996, and Rules 5(1)(a) and (b) European Communities (TM Agents) Regulations 2016 (SI 47/2016); and
• European institution: Articles 92 and 93 EUTMR and Articles 77 and 78 EUCDR

These provisions govern my capacity to practice respectively -and complementarily- before the Irish Patent Office and the EUropean IP Office.

The fundamental theme in both, is EEA domiciliation. For instance, for the EUTMR/EUCDR ones, the text is basically "any natural person can be entered on the list of authorised representatives before the EUIPO, who fulfils the following conditions:

• is a national of one of the Member States of the European Economic Area; and
• has his or her place of business or employment in the European Economic Area; and
• is entitled to represent natural or legal persons in trade mark/design matters before the central property office of a Member State of the European Economic Area. (Note: that central industrial property office does not have to correspond to the place of business or employment. However, it must be within the European Economic Area).

These tests are cumulative, and since the UK Brexiting out of the EEA automatically voids UK-based attorneys' capacity to meet these tests (since they cease to meet the second test above and, for UK nationals, the first test as well), so the UK Brexiting out the EEA automatically takes them off the EUIPO Register (and, for the few UK-based ones, off the Irish Register(s) as well).

It's something we (as a regulated profession) immediately saw the second Brexit was mooted, never mind put to a referendum; something which we warned and talked to the powers-that-be about before the referendum, and since (and which, I anticipate, features prominently in the yet-to-be-publicised HMG sectoral report about our industry). It's also why there's never been more UK solicitors applying for entry onto the Irish Roll of Solicitors, nor more UK applicants to sit the Irish IP qualifying exams, than since June 2016 (I don't expect it will make much of a difference for them if the UK does Brexit outside the EEA, but well, better to have it and not need it, than the reverse eh?)

And it's also something about which, as in your case, there still isn't the slightest bit of noise, officially or not, to this day. Whether from HMG, from the UKIPO or from any other stakeholder. It's still fog central, 16 months on, with about 18 months to go tops.

For me, moving to the EU27 before Brexit cancels these unknowns completely (because I now escape the possibility of falling outside the legal tests inherent to the above-quoted provisions through Brexiting outside the EEA).

But, and of course, it creates a new problem in the UK (in view of my UK qualification).

Pragmatically, it is a 'lesser' unknown, because unlike the Irish Patents Office and the European institution, there is no statutory requirement of professional qualification to act as a representative before the UK Patent Office. The UK badge is a good one to have for marketing and fee level-justifying purposes, both at home and abroad, but strictly speaking it is not needed to do the job, unlike the Irish badge to work before the IPO and the <EU27> badge to work before the EUIPO.

So unless the UK Patent Office was to shut down direct access to non-UK applicants and representatives post-Brexit (a protectionist measure which would run counter both to the UKIPO's policies of the past 20 years and May's "Global UK" aspirations), that new problem is a non-problem.

Driving licenses are a small side issue in the grand scheme of things, I fully agree. But the fundamental problem is that this grand scheme of things is made up of a myriad such small side issues as the driving license and my own (example-) small side issues. Calina is absolutely spot on about this, but I guess many detractors and wing sprouters do not see it, because they have never faced such situations, nor their consequences.

And the fact of the matter is that, for all the constructive forewarning done and pushed and trumpeted by 'experts' like me about their own small side issues, there still isn't the faintest clue yet, that anyone in HMG has grasped the fact that what is needed to Brexit at least possible pain requires considering and grasping with the full scale (or, well, as fully as possible) of these small side issues before March 2019. After that time is too late, because automatic operation of law (and then we'd be into the worst possible form of crisis management context: ad hoc firefighting, often as not creating more problems medium- and long-term than it solves short-term).

Nody

Well since people requested a new topic here's a popular one; flying. May's secretary for transport stating:

But the transport secretary, Chris Grayling, told delegates: “It is inconceivable that planes will stop flying. It is not going to happen.”

Speaking to The Independent, Mr Grayling said: “I’m hoping for a positive open skies arrangement with the European Union.”

Which of course goes against what Daniel Davis was saying last week in parliament but expecting May's government to speak with one vision is of course in lala land these days. There's only one minor problem of course which is the ECJ is the arbitrator for the Open Skies agreement which is a red line for May (supposedly) which may be why they stated it with "hoping". Of course without Open skies UK planes can still fly to Europe (and vice versa) but they have to be a single city and then leave he European union and land somewhere else ; they can't go between cities in Europe (or UK) which will hurt all UK airlines a heck of a lot more than European once as it greatly reduces flexibility in planning.