Brexit discussion thread II

Water John

Both Press Reviewers on Sky, very supportive of Irish case. Good to hear reasonable voices.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

According to the Telegraph story Ireland wants "regulatory convergence" between north and south written in stone.

British govt sources annoyed - say Ireland has put on the table something no British govt could ever agree to.

Paper says UK officials very pessimistic about prospect of deal.

So what is their alternative?

The Rape of Lucretia

Samaris wrote: »

I can't agree that it is a good strategy. Because everyone's back is against a wall and Britain has most to lose.

Ireland loses out both economically and socially if there's a hard border on the island. It is the worst case scenario. NI loses out on the same as well and the DUP propping up the Tories is a complication. Britain loses out to some extent, mostly through the damage it will cause NI.

Not really. The point of a game of chicken is that you are betting the other guy will blink first. In this case, that the EU, faced with the decision of denying the UK free access to the single marked, and by consequence a border on the island of Ireland, will baulk, and not do so. Citing peace, stability, economic impact on Eire, the peace process and GF Agreement, a desire to work positively in the future with the UK in trade, yadda, yadda, yadda. And so give the UK a good deal.
Yes, the UK overall has the most to lose - that why it has little choice but to play a high risk game like this one.

Panrich

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what is their alternative?

This is where Brexit meets reality. The DUP/Some Tories will not countenance a sea border so May cannot offer that up even if she wanted to. Ireland cannot relent on the border as it would be political suicide for the party that agreed to a hard border.

Junkyard Tom

I suspect the British have one eye, and both hands, on Scotland when they're negotiating about the north's future. The British don't want the Scots to see the north getting something that the SNP could use as a basis for pushing to leave the UK.

Panrich

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Not really. The point of a game of chicken is that you are betting the other guy will blink first. In this case, that the EU, faced with the decision of denying the UK free access to the single marked, and by consequence a border on the island of Ireland, will baulk, and not do so. Citing peace, stability, economic impact on Eire, the peace process and GF Agreement, a desire to work positively in the future with the UK in trade, yadda, yadda, yadda. And so give the UK a good deal.
Yes, the UK overall has the most to lose - that why it has little choice but to play a high risk game like this one.

No Irish politician will agree to a hard border. It is simply politically ruinous to do so. If it comes about because they will not agree to allow the UK move on, then that is the least worst scenario. This is a point that is lost on UK politicians and analysts.

The Irish position is simple. If the UK want a hard border, they are going to have to be the ones that call it. If the UK Government think that this is brinksmanship or a game of chicken, they are mistaken.

Bit cynical

Panrich wrote: »

No Irish politician will agree to a hard border.

Problem is that disagreement also equals hard border. Our veto can only be used to stop an agreement. It can't be used to force an agreement favourable to us.

Panrich

Bit cynical wrote: »

Problem is that disagreement also equals hard border. Our veto can only be used to stop an agreement. It can't be used to force an agreement favourable to us.

If a hard border arises from our stance, then it is through a pursuit of a soft border. If we capitulate and agree to move the talks on then a hard border or indeed the shape of any potential border will fall outside our control.

The Rape of Lucretia

Panrich wrote: »

No Irish politician will agree to a hard border.

Exactly ! Thats why the UK can play it this way, calling the EU's bluff that it will draw a border. It knows Ireland/the EU wont. So it can keep bouncing this one back to them. Effectively forcing and free trade agreement.

The UK negotiators are pretty dumb. But not quite as dumb as some would like to make them out to be.

Panrich

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Exactly ! Thats why the UK can play it this way, calling the EU's bluff that it will draw a border. It knows Ireland/the EU wont. So it can keep bouncing this one back to them. Effectively forcing and free trade agreement.

The UK negotiators are pretty dumb. But not quite as dumb as some would like to make them out to be.

How are they going to get past phase 1?

Blowfish

Panrich wrote: »

No Irish politician will agree to a hard border. It is simply politically ruinous to do so. If it comes about because they will not agree to allow the UK move on, then that is the least worst scenario. This is a point that is lost on UK politicians and analysts.

The Irish position is simple. If the UK want a hard border, they are going to have to be the ones that call it. If the UK Government think that this is brinksmanship or a game of chicken, they are mistaken.

Indeed, I don't think they realise that any Irish politician who doesn't fight as much as possible to prevent the hard border will immediately become unelectable and may even sink their entire party for a long time.

Bit cynical

Panrich wrote: »

If a hard border arises from our stance, then it is through a pursuit of a soft border.

If the end result of our actions is a hard border, does it really matter what we have been ostensibly pursuing?

It seems to me that the easiest way for Ireland to ensure a hard border is to veto anything that changes the way things are at the moment knowing that no matter what sort of Brexit occurs, short of the UK remaining in the single market (which they are not going to do), things must change.

If we know that things must change, then vetoing anything other than the status quo wrt the border is, in effect, bringing about the hard border. We haven't really been pursuing a soft border; only pretending to do so.

Our actions in these negotiations only makes sense if we actually want a hard border despite saying otherwise.

The Rape of Lucretia

Panrich wrote: »

How are they going to get past phase 1?

By mutual fudge, and pushing the line that the border solution is intricately bound in the trade agreement (and there is an undeniable argument on this line, despite an understandable opening position from the EU, that there isnt).

The Rape of Lucretia

Blowfish wrote: »

I don't think they realise that any Irish politician who doesn't fight as much as possible to prevent the hard border will immediately become unelectable and may even sink their entire party for a long time.

They do realise this !
Its this very knowledge that gives them leverage to force a good trade deal.

Panrich

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

By mutual fudge, and pushing the line that the border solution is intricately bound in the trade agreement (and there is an undeniable argument on this line, despite an understandable opening position from the EU, that there isnt).

Our biggest fear is not a hard border although it is a big fear. Our main concern is the GFA and upholding the progress that has been made. There is a sizeable number of nationalists in the North that are not being represented by their government who voted to remain in the EU.

We MUST not let the UK fudge on this issue and then let them subsequently use it as a tool to blackmail the EU during phase 2.

We have no ultimate control of whether the UK will not come to their senses on the border issue. Their red lines make regulatory divergence a given and therefore a border seems inevitable.

We cannot be seen to acquiesce to that.

It seems that as you predict the UK is banking on us being more afraid of the consequences of a hard border than trying to protect the GFA with all the means at our disposal.

Bit cynical

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They do realise this !
Its this very knowledge that gives them leverage to force a good trade deal.

I think the UK politicians overestimate the extent to which the border in Ireland is an important issue in the EU as a whole.

sink

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Exactly ! Thats why the UK can play it this way, calling the EU's bluff that it will draw a border. It knows Ireland/the EU wont. So it can keep bouncing this one back to them. Effectively forcing and free trade agreement.

The UK negotiators are pretty dumb. But not quite as dumb as some would like to make them out to be.

No agreement is an unstable situation and will not last long. Any agreement will be permanent.

The Irish government can never sign an agreement that would still require permanent border controls. Even though border might be more limited than an no deal scenario, any border controls whatsoever are politically unacceptable as the risk of sliding down a very dark path is far too real.

If negotiations fail and the UK leaves without a deal and a border is imposed. The UK will suffer serious economic damage which will cause the collapse of the government. There will be elections and a new government led by Labour will sign an agreement with the EU that allows the border to be open.

If the Tories/DUP are really willing to beak away without an agreement if they don't get their way, we can either choose between a lot of pain in the short term but with a better settlement in the long term or we can bow to their demands a lose out permanently.

Blowfish

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They do realise this !
Its this very knowledge that gives them leverage to force a good trade deal.

I'd say the opposite. If Irish politicians allow any fudge that results in a noticable border, then they are finished. This means that they have to be completely inflexible in phase 1 and not allow any compromise of a 'soft border', to the point of vetoing it all the way to the leave date if they must. If it gets that far and the UK still haven't agreed to a 'no border' proposal and end up with no deal, I don't see the Irish population punishing the politicians for it.

Bit cynical

Blowfish wrote: »

I'd say the opposite. If Irish politicians allow any fudge that results in a hard border, then they are finished. This means that they have to be completely inflexible in phase 1 and not allow any compromise of a 'soft border', to the point of vetoing it all the way to the leave date if they must. If it gets that far and the UK still haven't agreed to a 'no border' proposal and end up with no deal, I don't see the Irish population punishing the politicians for it.

Even though in such event we end up with the hardest of hard borders? I think in such a scenario, the Irish politicians might be able to get away with blaming the Brits for a while, but eventually it will become apparent that Irish politicians have played a part in screwing the country over.

But I do understand the dilemma Irish politicians are in. If they agree to something even slightly harder than the border we have, they will immediately be blamed for that slight hardening. So they have no choice really but to go on vetoing anything that is put forward even while knowing full well that the end result is a much harder border than would otherwise be the case. Their hope, presumably, is that they will be drawing their pension by the time blame gets attached to them.

sink

Bit cynical wrote: »

Even though in such event we end up with the hardest of hard borders? I think in such a scenario, the Irish politicians might be able to get away with blaming the Brits for a while, but eventually it will become apparent that Irish politicians have played a part in screwing the country over.

But I do understand the dilemma Irish politicians are in. If they agree to something even slightly harder than the border we have, they will immediately be blamed for that slight hardening. So they have no choice really but to go on vetoing anything that is put forward even while knowing full well that the end result is a much harder border than would otherwise be the case. Their hope, presumably, is that they will be drawing their pension by the time blame gets attached to them.

Do you honestly see the UK government not signing any kind of trade deal with the EU as permanent state of affairs? They just barely had support to pull out of the EU when it was all going to be all roses and sunshine. As soon as the screws starts turning every politician in the land will be facing a very angry electorate and will be sent back to the EU to get any sort of deal they can.

The Rape of Lucretia

Blowfish wrote: »

I'd say the opposite. If Irish politicians allow any fudge that results in a noticable border, then they are finished. This means that they have to be completely inflexible in phase 1 and not allow any compromise of a 'soft border', to the point of vetoing it all the way to the leave date if they must. If it gets that far and the UK still haven't agreed to a 'no border' proposal and end up with no deal, I don't see the Irish population punishing the politicians for it.

'no deal' is a border.

I dont seem to be making myself clear. Ireland doesnt want a border. The Eu doesnt want a border. The UK doesnt want a border. So, through whatever machinations, posturing, and last minute brinkmanship, a means will be found, essentially by concession on the EU side, that the UK will remain in the single market.

The EU will concede, because it thinks the UK is bats enough to go ahead with the border / no deal scenario. The UK is affecting this position at the moment : "look at us. We're crazy. We arent even coherent as a cabinet let alone as a parliament. We are trying to keep all colours of crazy in check here and find a workable solution. But we are crazy enough to go no deal/borders. Just try us if you dare".
And so the EU will back off and give the UK a good deal. There will be an open border. Johnson and Co, however unpalatable to many here and in Europe will also claim vindication having gotten a good deal for the UK, maintained the promise of an open border, etc.

The Rape of Lucretia

sink wrote: »

Do you honestly see the UK government not signing any kind of trade deal with the EU as permanent state of affairs? They just barely had support to pull out of the EU when it was all going to be all roses and sunshine. As soon as the screws starts turning every politician in the land will be facing a very angry electorate and will be sent back to the EU to get any sort of deal they can.

Exactly. And in that scenario, do you honestly see the EU not giving the UK a deal that has open access to the EU ? While the UK is still arguing politics yet has most as stake economically, the EU is playing economics but fundamentally has more to lose politically. It will not preside over a border going up on this island. The economic hit it could take. The political hit, the EU, could not.

sink

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Exactly. And in that scenario, do you honestly see the EU not giving the UK a deal that has open access to the EU ? While the UK is still arguing politics yet has most as stake economically, the EU is playing economics but fundamentally has more to lose politically. It will not preside over a border going up on this island. The economic hit it could take. The political hit, the EU, could not.

The point immediately after the UK has shot itself is when they will be weakest. The will take any deal the EU puts on the table just to stop the bleeding.

Leroy42

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

'no deal' is a border.

I dont seem to be making myself clear. Ireland doesnt want a border. The Eu doesnt want a border. The UK doesnt want a border. So, through whatever machinations, posturing, and last minute brinkmanship, a means will be found, essentially by concession on the EU side, that the UK will remain in the single market.

The EU will concede, because it thinks the UK is bats enough to go ahead with the border / no deal scenario. The UK is affecting this position at the moment : "look at us. We're crazy. We arent even coherent as a cabinet let alone as a parliament. We are trying to keep all colours of crazy in check here and find a workable solution. But we are crazy enough to go no deal/borders. Just try us if you dare".
And so the EU will back off and give the UK a good deal. There will be an open border. Johnson and Co, however unpalatable to many here and in Europe will also claim vindication having gotten a good deal for the UK, maintained the promise of an open border, etc.

The problem with that scenario is it fails to take into account any of the other countries. Why would Ireland, for example, continue to operate under the rules of the EU when the UK are basically given a free deal with none of the costs. Ireland would have to leave the EU in order to compete with a UK freed from the constraints of the EU.

And if Ireland leaves, after the UK, then why not others. So the EU would effectively be signed its own death notice.

The Rape of Lucretia

sink wrote: »

The point immediately after the UK has shot itself is when they will be weakest. The will take any deal the EU puts on the table just to stop the bleeding.

I really cant see this happening. The problem is that the EU knows, should the UK pull that trigger, the bullet will hit Europe after it hits the UK. The EU can afford to pay the economic price when all is said and done. And so will be the one to concede the deal. All dressed up in win-win partnership speak of course. But concede it must.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Exactly. And in that scenario, do you honestly see the EU not giving the UK a deal that has open access to the EU ? While the UK is still arguing politics yet has most as stake economically, the EU is playing economics but fundamentally has more to lose politically. It will not preside over a border going up on this island. The economic hit it could take. The political hit, the EU, could not.

Has anyone else figured out that this is the UK strategy, bar yourself?

Junkyard Tom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The EU will concede, because it thinks the UK is bats enough to go ahead with the border / no deal scenario.

I think you believe the EU cares as much about what the British do as the British think they do. I'm a nationalist but I'd accept a hard border as a consequence of the CONs/DUP shooting themselves in the head. At least the people in the north have a road map out of the mess that would be left in the wake of a cliff-edge Brexit.

The DUP know the latter point too.

MPFGLB

This is a good article from the Guardian on the sorry state of affairs and how the solution is obvious but blocked by those geniuses the DUP

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/03/solution-irish-border-blind-ideology-dup-brexiteers

Heaven preserve us ...but when you look at the voices of Brexit ...Farage, Rees Mog, Johnson, Davies, Gove and the DUP....you cant help but wonder how did the lunatics take over the asylum

Where are the voices of Brexit that are reasonable ...and if they exist why are they not on the BBC, etc
Any politican I do see from the government just says the same old same old

" The British people voted to leave the EU"
" We will be leaving the EU"
"Brexit is Brexit"
" We will uphold the will of the people"

Thats about it...thats the script

sink

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I really cant see this happening. The problem is that the EU knows, should the UK pull that trigger, the bullet will hit Europe after it hits the UK. The EU can afford to pay the economic price when all is said and done. And so will be the one to concede the deal. All dressed up in win-win partnership speak of course. But concede it must.

That makes no sense. You admit the UK will take the brunt of the damage and even acknowledge that the the EU can take the damage and still carry on. But somehow in this scenario with the UK bleeding on the floor and the EU still standing it will be the EU that will ask first for help? I don't see your logic.

Samaris

Options on the varying levels of soft border, Bit_cynical? How does that work? Does that mean checks at the ports? Is NI in an alternative-but-identical regulatory situation, or is it within the Customs Union? Does that mean checks at the border of RoI and NI territory?

It is no good saying that there are all these options, or a varying level of softness if there is no explanation of what that means, particularly taking into account the red lines regarding what to be part of. What, in your view, should be used to create a "softer" border while not moving the regulatory border to the sea?

joeysoap

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

At least the people in the north have a road map out of the mess that would be left in the wake of a cliff-edge Brexit.

The DUP know the latter point too.

Now wouldn’t that be a laugh. UK goes hard Brexit and hard border and there’s an referendum in NI.

CrabRevolution

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

'no deal' is a border.

I dont seem to be making myself clear. Ireland doesnt want a border. The Eu doesnt want a border. The UK doesnt want a border. So, through whatever machinations, posturing, and last minute brinkmanship, a means will be found, essentially by concession on the EU side, that the UK will remain in the single market.

The EU will concede, because it thinks the UK is bats enough to go ahead with the border / no deal scenario. The UK is affecting this position at the moment : "look at us. We're crazy. We arent even coherent as a cabinet let alone as a parliament. We are trying to keep all colours of crazy in check here and find a workable solution. But we are crazy enough to go no deal/borders. Just try us if you dare".
And so the EU will back off and give the UK a good deal. There will be an open border. Johnson and Co, however unpalatable to many here and in Europe will also claim vindication having gotten a good deal for the UK, maintained the promise of an open border, etc.

The EU can't give them the cake-and-eat-it deal the UK wants, as that would be the EU signing its own death warrant.

If the UK gets to keep all the benefits of the EU while also having no responsibilities, you'll have a queue of countries leaving and demanding the same deal the UK got. The EU would be finished.

jm08

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I really cant see this happening. The problem is that the EU knows, should the UK pull that trigger, the bullet will hit Europe after it hits the UK. The EU can afford to pay the economic price when all is said and done. And so will be the one to concede the deal. All dressed up in win-win partnership speak of course. But concede it must.

Rees-Mogg and his cronies plan on removing tariffs (food in particular). If that happens Northern Ireland farmers in particular will be wiped out because they won't be able to compete.

The UK has to be accepted into the WTO (which they might find a bit difficult). The EU can block their membership for starters if they act the maggot too much.

Junkyard Tom

joeysoap wrote: »

Now wouldn’t that be a laugh. UK goes hard Brexit and hard border and there’s an referendum in NI.

I think the DUP know this all too well too. They, my goodness I can't believe I'm writing this, might even be the the more mitigating factor in preventing the lunatics from burning down the asylum.

I can't see what the DUP would think they could achieve by enabling a cliff-edge brexit except the end of the union and a pro-UI vote within several years.

Maybe they want to make the north such an utter basket-case impoverished dependency that all the nationalists will move south?

Kermit.de.frog

Being reported in the Guardian...

Theresa May fails to strike border deal with Irish government

Bit cynical

sink wrote: »

Do you honestly see the UK government not signing any kind of trade deal with the EU as permanent state of affairs? They just barely had support to pull out of the EU when it was all going to be all roses and sunshine. As soon as the screws starts turning every politician in the land will be facing a very angry electorate and will be sent back to the EU to get any sort of deal they can.

No, I could see them approaching the EU for a trade deal, much like the FTA with Canada and the Irish government could certainly block that too if (as indeed would be the case) such a deal did not remove the hard border.

But where I disagree most with posters here is the extent to which the EU regards the Irish border as a central issue in negotiations. It is only an issue to the extent that Ireland is in the EU and Ireland has a veto. Therefore Ireland stall the talks fairly easily.

What if the EU itself doesn't particularly want to do a deal with UK perhaps to send a message to other future discontents? Then the Irish strategy falls apart.

In that scenario, we're left with the hard border. We can blame the Brits for a while but we still suffer because of it. Politically the EU does not suffer because Ireland is only a tiny part of the EU. No politician in mainland Europe is worried about their job over it. Economically, most countries in Europe won't be affected by Brexit and some may even benefit slightly.

MPFGLB

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think the DUP know this all too well too. They, my goodness I can't believe I'm writing this, might even be the the more mitigating factor in preventing the lunatics from burning down the asylum.

I can't see what the DUP would think they could achieve by enabling a cliff-edge brexit except the end of the union and a pro-UI vote within several years.

Maybe they want to make the north such an utter basket-case impoverished dependency that all the nationalists will move south?

You give the DUP too much credit ...I dont think they have coherent thought that can constitute a strategy

Maybe NI would vote out of UK ? Afterall being in the UK has been a financial disaster for NI ...since the GFA things have looked up but stayign with Britian could reverse any gains

MPFGLB

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Being reported in the Guardian...

Theresa May fails to strike border deal with Irish government

Well that is going to be the case as long as the DUP holds sway
Mrs May should never have gone to the polls this year

sink

Bit cynical wrote: »

No, I could see them approaching the EU for a trade deal, much like the FTA with Canada and the Irish government could certainly block that too if (as indeed would be the case) such a deal did not remove the hard border.

But where I disagree most with posters here is the extent to which the EU regards the Irish border as a central issue in negotiations. It is only an issue to the extent that Ireland is in the EU and Ireland has a veto. Therefore Ireland stall the talks fairly easily.

What if the EU itself doesn't particularly want to do a deal with UK perhaps to send a message to other future discontents? Then the Irish strategy falls apart.

In that scenario, we're left with the hard border. We can blame the Brits for a while but we still suffer because of it. Politically the EU does not suffer because Ireland is only a tiny part of the EU. No politician in mainland Europe is worried about their job over it. Economically, most countries in Europe won't be affected by Brexit and some may even benefit slightly.

That assumes the UK will not back down, even after their economy crashes. Or that the EU will not accept a deal with the UK even after they make a humiliating climb-down.

I think you place too much faith in the UK's resolve. They are so utterly divided and weak, they will not find political stability without a deal.

You also attribute too much malice to the EU. It will take any deal which benefits all it's members without causing damage to the integrity of the single market and customs union. It's impossible for the the EU to be vindictive in that way. Self interested and stubborn certainly, but vindictiveness is not a trait beneficial to the health of a multilateral organisation based on cooperation and trust.

Samaris

Just to take the whole other scenario for a moment - the EU backs down from the UK's cunning chaotic incompetence ploy and says fine, you can talk about it during trade. Even say for the moment that Ireland cannot veto and it goes ahead.

Then what? What does a trade deal that is good for the UK look like for the border? What will it mean in terms of regulations? Say the UK gets a wonderful trade deal, given that whole Britain verbally pinky-promising no hard border, does that mean that they are staying in the Customs Union? Northern Ireland? Regulatory divergence, etc. Looming issue of WTO and international trade on both parties. We still need answers.


Even from the sidelines, I much prefer knowing this sorta grand scheme stuff before moving into the nitty-gritty of trade talks. Everyone's at least in the same universe. But for the sake of argument, if anyone could give an answer to how to solve it before calling it a good solution, that'd be great. Same for the sea border though. It solves more, but there's still some holes to be addressed.

MPFGLB

Looks like the Scots are riding to the rescue

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15698814.Scottish_government_vows_to_help_Ireland_fight_hard_border_after_Brexit/


Not sure what they can actually do that is practical ...but I suppose solidarity is not to be sniffed at

J Mysterio

MPFGLB wrote: »

Looks like the Scots are riding to the rescue

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15698814.Scottish_government_vows_to_help_Ireland_fight_hard_border_after_Brexit/


Not sure what they can actually do that is practical ...but I suppose solidarity is not to be sniffed at

Welcome development.

The Herald got their facts wrong right from the start of that article though:

THE Scottish government has ramped up pressure on Theresa May's wounded Tory administration over Brexit after it vowed to help Ireland fight a hard border with Ulster.

Junkyard Tom

MPFGLB wrote: »

You give the DUP too much credit ...I dont think they have coherent thought that can constitute a strategy

I think their strategy went a bit like this (try humming circus music while you read this it will add to the effect)

DUP Strategy Head Quarters.

Let's support Brexit so we can out-British the UUP and prove how super-British we are. Sure it's not going happen, Lol.

Oh shit, they, I mean we, won... okay we'll just be leaving the EU, not much will change we'll stay in the CU and all that. God save the Queen!

Oh, a Westminster election. Grand job... Yay we won the UUP seats for Westminster and hold the balance of power. Cool! That was probably God, sure doesn't Big Ian have his ear these days.

Look at us, we're the men. Look how British we are over here in Westminster being bought off with British money.

Right, now that we have May over a barrel what could possibly go wrong. Okay.. the lunatic fringe are pushing a hard Brexit agenda. We'll be damned if they think they're going to thrown us under the bus WE'RE THE SUPER-BRITISH!

Be grand, we'll eat our big Union flag cake and it'll still be in the fridge in the morning. Hurrah! Anyone heard from Sinn Fein lately? Why the silence? ... ah sure they're just a bunch of regional nobodies, who cares about Stormont.

What now? The feckers in the Dail have a veto on us getting our eat-and-have-a-cake super-British strategy? Who do they think they are? :mad: They need to wind their necks in. :mad:

Wait a second lads, do you think maybe we're facing a no-win scenario here? We can either have our super-Brutishness or risk destabilising our beautiful union...

What a pickle we've found ourselves in, drat!

To be continued....

MPFGLB

Nice one Junkyard

Just thought today ...Brexit is comedy gold

But no 'In the thick of it' or no 'Halls Pictorial Weekly' or no 'spitting image' ....what happened to political satire ?

Even Apres Match ...is anyone doing anything ???

Kermit.de.frog

MPFGLB wrote: »

Looks like the Scots are riding to the rescue

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15698814.Scottish_government_vows_to_help_Ireland_fight_hard_border_after_Brexit/


Not sure what they can actually do that is practical ...but I suppose solidarity is not to be sniffed at

Not sure Scotland, as a region of the UK, wields any influence in this tbh.

Unless they had a party propping up a Westminster govt. Unfortunately they don't.

Junkyard Tom

It's very important to Westminster, and the DUP I guess, that the north doesn't get a deal that Scotland will use as a blueprint for leaving 'Greater England'. I'm not sure how the hell they're going to square that circle.

England base-jumping out of the EU hoping to grow wings while they fall would probably be the end of the UK as we know it because the Scots and Nationalists in the north will blame the CONs/DUP for their woes with the resulting consequences.

J Mysterio

There seems to be no news on this! Very little info to be found right now.

Kermit.de.frog

Word is no deal tomorrow but London may request more time on it.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ireland demanding defacto sea border according to the Irish Times tomorrow

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-seeks-firm-british-guarantee-on-border-1.3314366

Not having a subscription, I can only read the first three lines of the Irish Times Report, but FWIW the first three lines do not reflect the summary you give.

Far be it from me to encourage breach of copyright, but could you sort of beat around the bush a bit as to the gist of the rest of the article?

Kermit.de.frog

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not having a subscription, I can only read the first three lines of the Irish Times Report, but FWIW the first three lines do not reflect the summary you give.

Far be it from me to encourage breach of copyright, but could you sort of beat around the bush a bit as to the gist of the rest of the article?

Not going to post whole article obviously but the key point.

Ireland is sticking to its position that there should be no “regulatory divergence” between the North and the Republic, and this is understood to be the main point of negotiation.

Anything less than a commitment to no regulatory divergence, it is argued, will mean the return of a hard Border.

Sources said the exact wording of the deal was not as important as what it would actually contain. This is a commitment to the same regulations applying across the island of Ireland even in a potential “no-deal” Brexit, which means the Border would not be tied up in contentious phase two talks.