Brexit discussion thread II

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yes, that is very true.

It is equally true that someone could bung the respective minister enough money to reword it so that one legged lesbians from Peru are allowed free access to the UK football and rugby leagues and no one else.

You can say what you like about the UK parliamentary system, but it is very good at weeding out those that accept bungs.

It's a different point, but one of the principle objections to the Great Repeal Bill is that it gives ministers unprecedented power to make and remake the law with no effective parliamentary scrutiny. I'm not really serious about the bungs, but the system is designed to give lobbyists and party donors far more influence than parliamentarians over how the UK actually uses its new-found freedom to depart from the norms of EU law.

(The freedom to employ foreign soccer players is, however, one norm from which I doubt they will be departing.)

Blowfish

Fratton Fred wrote: »

seeing as Rugby and football teams currently recruit players from Fiji, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Japan .....

I can't see this being a significant issue, can you?

Actually, it is. I know it's an odd source, but given how relevant Brexit is to their game, the makers of Football Manager worked it out and found out that roughly 150 or so first team EU regulars in the Premier League/SPL would not have qualified for Work Permits under the points based system that's in use for non EU players.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/18/want-to-know-how-brexit-will-work-play-football-manager

Peregrinus

Blowfish wrote: »

Actually, it is. I know it's an odd source, but given how relevant Brexit is to their game, the makers of Football Manager worked it out and found out that roughly 150 or so first team EU regulars in the Premier League/SPL would not have qualified for Work Permits under the points based system that's in use for non EU players.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/18/want-to-know-how-brexit-will-work-play-football-manager

There's a points-based system for non-EU players? :eek:

Blowfish

Peregrinus wrote: »

There's a points-based system for non-EU players? :eek:

Indeed, it's based on things like number of International appearances, FIFA ranking of the country (think they only will allow players from the top 50), transfer fee being high, wages being high, current club being in a top league, how much they've played for their current club, if they've played in a continental competition etc. It's pretty much designed to only allow already proven (so no grabbing young prospects) and reasonably well known players to join.

If it ends up with no deal and/or they don't sort out exceptions for Football etc. in time, it's going to massively affect the Premier League as the pool of players they can pull from will be far lower. This will cause even more hugely inflated prices for English players, plus will likely devastate the SPL, NI and (assuming CTA etc. stays in place) the League of Ireland as anyone in those leagues won't need a work permit, hence all the half decent players will be pulled into the English leagues as that's where the money is.

Fratton Fred

Blowfish wrote: »

Indeed, it's based on things like number of International appearances, FIFA ranking of the country (think they only will allow players from the top 50), transfer fee being high, wages being high, current club being in a top league, how much they've played for their current club, if they've played in a continental competition etc. It's pretty much designed to only allow already proven (so no grabbing young prospects) and reasonably well known players to join.

If it ends up with no deal and/or they don't sort out exceptions for Football etc. in time, it's going to massively affect the Premier League as the pool of players they can pull from will be far lower. This will cause even more hugely inflated prices for English players, plus will likely devastate the SPL, NI and (assuming CTA etc. stays in place) the League of Ireland as anyone in those leagues won't need a work permit, hence all the half decent players will be pulled into the English leagues as that's where the money is.

the current system is based on there being no restrictions on eu players joining the premier league, so it is most likely overly restrictive on players outside of the eu. I would imagine there will be a certain amount of relaxation of these rules over time.

The idea is that with the money the premier league has, there is little or no incentive to develop home grown talent. It is much easier to just spalsh the cash and buy players at will, so there could be an argument that this will benefit UK football in general.

The premier league will no doubt be protected though, as it is a big export for the UK and in particular a certain Brexiteer called Rupert Murdoch.

Blowfish

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The premier league will no doubt be protected though, as it is a big export for the UK and in particular a certain Brexiteer called Rupert Murdoch.

The clubs are looking for exceptions to be made, the problem is that the FA, who were the ones that agreed the points system with the government in the first place, seem to be implying that they would be happy enough if the points system were to apply to EU players post Brexit: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/04/06/brexit-premier-league-fa-odds-immigration-exemptions-foreign/

Dont be at yourself

The same forces that resulted in Brexit are the same that continuously lobby for more home-grown talent, restriction on foreign players etc -- these are generally also favoured by FIFA, UEFA and the FA, but their hands have been tied by EU employment law. The current arrangement (of clubs requiring x amount of 'home-grown' players in their squads, and restrictions on recruiting younger players outside their catchment area) are a fudge agreed by all parties.

I imagine once they're free of EU law, there'll be renewed emphasis on restricting the number of non-British soccer players in their leagues. I expect this conversation to begin again in earnest after England crash out of Euro 2020 at the quarter final stages to Germany on penalties.

Roanmore

Does this mean the Bosman ruling would no longer apply to the UK?

What would that mean for players in the last year of their contract?

Fratton Fred

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

The same forces that resulted in Brexit are the same that continuously lobby for more home-grown talent, restriction on foreign players etc -- these are generally also favoured by FIFA, UEFA and the FA, but their hands have been tied by EU employment law. The current arrangement (of clubs requiring x amount of 'home-grown' players in their squads, and restrictions on recruiting younger players outside their catchment area) are a fudge agreed by all parties.

I imagine once they're free of EU law, there'll be renewed emphasis on restricting the number of non-British soccer players in their leagues. I expect this conversation to begin again in earnest after England crash out of Euro 2020 at the quarter final stages to Germany on penalties.

I doubt very much if Rupert Murdoch wants a restriction on home grown players. It is in his best interests for an unlimited number of foreign born players in the premier league to make it more attractive to Asian markets.

ArmaniJeanss

Roanmore wrote: »

Does this mean the Bosman ruling would no longer apply to the UK?

It would still effectively apply I think. FA/SPL etc will be remaining in UEFA/FIFA and the rules of these governing bodies obviously now cater for Bosman and indeed a myriad of similar rulings.

The UK leagues will lose some small advantages of EU memberships though, currently they can sign sprogs from anywhere in the EU. After Brexit they can't.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

seeing as Rugby and football teams currently recruit players from Fiji, South Africa, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Japan .....

Who need work permits.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

Who need work permits.

yes, that was the point.

There are players of many sports in the UK from lots and lots of countries outside of the eu. I doubt there are any overseas cricketers in the county championship that are from eu countries (with obvious exception to Ireland).

there is a whole world out there, it doesn't end when you hit the med or the Atlantic.

ArmaniJeanss

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yes, that was the point.

There are players of many sports in the UK from lots and lots of countries outside of the eu. I doubt there are any overseas cricketers in the county championship that are from eu countries (with obvious exception to Ireland).

there is a whole world out there, it doesn't end when you hit the med or the Atlantic.

Lots of those county cricket players from SA and Caribbean are in the UK under the Kolpak ruling though. That's an ECJ ruling so isn't going to apply post Brexit.

Water John

The DUP boys wouldn't want to be drawing too much attention to themselves. There might be a bit more investigation of Brexit funds running through their accounts.

steddyeddy

Just to defend the English for a minute. Most people are disgusted by the Tory-DUP pact. The only people who defend it are nationalists and chavs (English for scumbag). The dregs of society so to speak.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

there is a whole world out there, it doesn't end when you hit the med or the Atlantic.

But it means that after Brexit, EU nationals will need a work permit to play for UK teams. There are strict criteria applied by the FA to non-EU nationals that currently don't apply to French,Spanish, Belgian etc players. We'll have to see if the same rules are applied to them as they are to Africans and Asians who play for English clubs.

Rugby (Union and League) will have its own issues to sort.

johnnyskeleton

Water John wrote: »

The DUP boys wouldn't want to be drawing too much attention to themselves. There might be a bit more investigation of Brexit funds running through their accounts.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Just to defend the English for a minute. Most people are disgusted by the Tory-DUP pact. The only people who defend it are nationalists and chavs (English for scumbag). The dregs of society so to speak.

Mod note:

Please read the charter before posting again re: standards. The whole thread has been in a bit of a decline to be honest, so I'd ask all posters to try to keep posts to relevant and substantial contributions.

wes

Some interesting new polls from yougov:

Brexit: Majority of older Leave voters say significant economic damage is 'price worth paying', finds YouGov


Astonishing to see those who are retired willing to sacrifice the jobs of the young for Brexit. Its basically generational warfare and shows just how selfish some of the older generation of Brexiters are.

swampgas

wes wrote: »

Some interesting new polls from yougov:

Brexit: Majority of older Leave voters say significant economic damage is 'price worth paying', finds YouGov


Astonishing to see those who are retired willing to sacrifice the jobs of the young for Brexit. Its basically generational warfare and shows just how selfish some of the older generation of Brexiters are.

It would be interesting to find out what's motivating them though.

It may have something to do with the fact the the UK today doesn't feel (to them) like the UK they grew up in. They may feel that immigration has changed everything so much that they don't feel at home in the UK any more. They may feel that by cutting themselves off from the EU that the country will go back to the way it was before and become a more familiar place. And they may feel that their kids would be better off unemployed in the UK of their youth rather than employed in the UK of today.

I'll stop playing amateur psychologist now - I have no idea what's really going on.

steddyeddy

Ireland bids for European Medicines Agency and Banking Authority. From a scientists view I hope we get the EMA. I'm doubtful about the EBA. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40788021

The Irish government has formally bid to host two major EU bodies that will be relocated from London after Brexit.
The European Banking Authority (EBA) and European Medicines Agency (EMA), based in Canary Wharf in London, employ more than 1,000 staff between them.

sondagefaux

swampgas wrote: »

It would be interesting to find out what's motivating them though.

It may have something to do with the fact the the UK today doesn't feel (to them) like the UK they grew up in. They may feel that immigration has changed everything so much that they don't feel at home in the UK any more. They may feel that by cutting themselves off from the EU that the country will go back to the way it was before and become a more familiar place. And they may feel that their kids would be better off unemployed in the UK of their youth rather than employed in the UK of today.

I'll stop playing amateur psychologist now - I have no idea what's really going on.

At the very least, they're incredibly selfish.

What motivates them? Based on my experience of older British people's opinions, think it is a rejection of the world as it is today.

If you ever get the chance to listen to a group of British pensioners, being in the EU is only part of their generalised distaste for the modern world: they'd also gladly bring back hanging, abolish same-sex marriage, yearn for the days when a woman's place was in the home and hate 'PC gone mad', i.e, they want it to be socially acceptable to be openly racist, homophobic, anti-semitic and sexist.

You'll find similar views in all age groups but nothing like to the extent to which they prevail among the over 65s.



You see a similar pattern when it comes to support for the Conservatives vs support for Labour.

Class is no longer the great divide in English and Welsh society, age is.

Identification as nationalist (or 'liberal unionist') as opposed to identification as unionist remains the biggest divide in Northern Ireland.

I can't see this changing in the future - the UK is an ageing society and the reduction in immigration that withdrawal from the EU will bring will only hasten that process.

A society of older people who hate the changes that young people want: basically Ireland in the 1950s and/or Poland today, exacerbated in 1950s Ireland and today's Poland by massive emigration of younger people, quite possibly the UK's fate after Brexit, not helped by the fact that nearly all pensioners vote while younger people (especially those in the 18-24 age group) aren't anywhere near as keen on voting.

Eventually enough of these angry older people will die to permit the UK to change, but it might take another generation or longer unless younger people get off their arses and start voting for parties and candidates who represent what they want.

If I was a young British person I'd be looking very seriously for ways to get the hell out.

Professor Moriarty

sondagefaux wrote: »

At the very least, they're incredibly selfish.

What motivates them? Based on my experience of older British people's opinions, think it is a rejection of the world as it is today.

If you ever get the chance to listen to a group of British pensioners, being in the EU is only part of their generalised distaste for the modern world: they'd also gladly bring back hanging, abolish same-sex marriage, yearn for the days when a woman's place was in the home and hate 'PC gone mad', i.e, they want it to be socially acceptable to be openly racist, homophobic, anti-semitic and sexist.

You'll find similar views in all age groups but nothing like to the extent to which they prevail among the over 65s.



You see a similar pattern when it comes to support for the Conservatives vs support for Labour.

Class is no longer the great divide in English and Welsh society, age is.

Identification as nationalist (or 'liberal unionist') as opposed to identification as unionist remains the biggest divide in Northern Ireland.

I can't see this changing in the future - the UK is an ageing society and the reduction in immigration that withdrawal from the EU will bring will only hasten that process.

A society of older people who hate the changes that young people want: basically Ireland in the 1950s and/or Poland today, exacerbated in 1950s Ireland and today's Poland by massive emigration of younger people, quite possibly the UK's fate after Brexit, not helped by the fact that nearly all pensioners vote while younger people (especially those in the 18-24 age group) aren't anywhere near as keen on voting.

Eventually enough of these angry older people will die to permit the UK to change, but it might take another generation or longer unless younger people get off their arses and start voting for parties and candidates who represent what they want.

If I was a young British person I'd be looking very seriously for ways to get the hell out.

"...causing myself or a member of my family to lose my/their job would be a price worth paying to bring Britain out of the EU."

Jaysus!!! What planet are these people living on?

sondagefaux

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"...causing myself or a member of my family to lose my/their job would be a price worth paying to bring Britain out of the EU."

Jaysus!!! What planet are these people living on?

Planet Brexit.

50% of those aged 65+ would be okay with a family member losing their job if that's the price to be paid to bring the UK out of the EU.

Of course hardly any of this age group have jobs as they're almost all retired or will by by the time Brexit happens in 2019.

The contempt of many of the older generation for the modern world is so great that they would prefer to see their children and grandchildren actively harmed rather than have to put up with it.

Unless younger people start voting in greater proportions, these people will always hold the balance of power and they will always be pandered to by politicians who, after all, will do everything they can to please people who actually get out and vote.

Capt'n Midnight

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

"...causing myself or a member of my family to lose my/their job would be a price worth paying to bring Britain out of the EU."

Jaysus!!! What planet are these people living on?

The planet where they have defined benefit pensions or at least triple lock ones. The NHS is still free. Many have free travel and most have no mortgage. No kids , no back to school costs, no childminder expenses. They are the generation that never had it so good, full employment in the 1960's, no degree needed, and many would have been in stable employment though tougher times later when there were few jobs for new entrants to the job market.

Typical pensioner incomes after housing costs now outstrip those of working-age people, a new report suggests.

"We can't assume either that young people today will be able to draw upon the kind of wealth that recent pensioners have accumulated, given the recent fall in home ownership and decline in generous defined benefit schemes."

NB these are not the people who fought in WWII , they voted to remain

Billy86

It's a standard modern right wing mindset to be honest - only look after myself, but expect everyone else to look after me and most of all... it's always somebody else's fault. Give it a few years and see exactly how happy they are about having benefits, pensions, etc stripped and being left desolate in their old age. I get the feeling though, they won't be looking to place any blame on their decision to leave to EU. Because it's always somebody else's fault.

Capt'n Midnight

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ireland bids for European Medicines Agency and Banking Authority. From a scientists view I hope we get the EMA. I'm doubtful about the EBA.

Brexiteers might have to get used to hearing stuff like

"We're getting a new Medicines Agency and you're paying for it."

Capt'n Midnight

Peregrinus wrote: »

I wouldn't assume that at all.

The US, for example, has a "highly talented" visa class under which foreign performers, sportspersons, computer whizzes, etc - experts in pretty well any field - can get visas to work in the US. This is good for the US because it allows them to tap into the world's best talent in any field, and it's good for US business, institutions, etc for the same reason. It's not mutual or reciprocal, because it's good for the US regardless of whether US experts are also free to go and work in Umbrellastan, or wherever. So this is a unilateral stance by the US, and it applies to the whole world.

I'd expect the UK to introduce something similar, if needed.

If needed ?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/27/eu-workers-leave-uk-deloitte-brexit

The consultancy firm Deloitte found 47% of highly skilled workers from the EU were considering leaving the UK in the next five years.
...
Overall, 36% of non-British workers in the UK said they were thinking of leaving within the same period, representing 1.2m jobs out of 3.4 million migrant workers in the UK.
...
Other research has suggested vacancies are getting harder to fill with one recent poll by the Recruitment and Employment Confederation flagging skills shortages across a range of more than 60 roles.

The UK barely have enough bodies to fill the shortage if those mmigrants leave, nevermind the lack of skills amongst the "long term unemployable" .
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/july2017

There were 1.49 million unemployed people (people not in work but seeking and available to work

BTW that's 3.4 million migrant workers out 32.01 employed.

Jim2007

Peregrinus wrote: »

The US, for example, has a "highly talented" visa class under which foreign performers, sportspersons, computer whizzes, etc - experts in pretty well any field - can get visas to work in the US.

And in the EU we have the Blue Card.....

sondagefaux

One of the arguments that was used during the referendum was that the EU, especially the eurozone, was in terminal decline and that the UK would be better off out of the EU instead of being 'shackled' to a declining continent.

Over one year after the referendum, and quite unsurprisingly really, the eurozone is now growing twice as fast as the UK:

The European recovery (apart from Britain) looks more impressive each time you look. Second-quarter GDP growth numbers for the eurozone and the EU as a whole, out on Tuesday, confirm this: the economy of the monetary union grew 0.6 per cent in the quarter, twice the UK’s pace of growth. Some eurozone countries have also posted impressive data, with Spain accelerating its already impressive growth streak and France maintaining its decent expansion.

The growth figures are backed up by good numbers more or less wherever else in the economy you care to look. The European Commission’s economic sentiment index is the highest it has been in a decade. Unemployment is falling in every European country (with the exception of Estonia).

...

All these countries still suffer from unconscionably high unemployment. But the speed with which jobs are returning is something to behold, as the detailed breakdown of the latest EU joblessness numbers shows. In just the past 12 months, Spain has cut its unemployment rate by 2.8 percentage points, Portugal by 2.1 points and Greece 1.9 points. These are big reductions. Even Italy has reduced unemployment by 0.6 percentage points in a year. For the eurozone as a whole, the number unemployed has fallen by 1.5m people in a year. In all cases except Greece, the decline in the youth unemployment rate is even greater.

There are two important lessons here. The first is simply to recognise that this is an impressive recovery even if the level of economic activity in the periphery still leaves a lot to be desired. It’s quite clear that unemployment is far too high across a swath of countries on the eurozone rim; but that should not detract from the progress that is finally being made.

https://www.ft.com/content/2a925752-7699-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71

Jim2007

sondagefaux wrote: »

One of the arguments that was used during the referendum was that the EU, especially the eurozone, was in terminal decline and that the UK would be better off out of the EU instead of being 'shackled' to a declining continent.

The thing is that was never seen in a true light - the reality is that the U.K. has not produced a positive balance of trade in well over 20 years, while all of the other economies have done so. Even Italy does so from time to time. One of the other gems I picked up on at the time as well was that when it came to closing the deal, the U.K. was ranked third last of the member states just above Malta and Greece!

It takes years to negotiate trade deals and years after that for companies to build up the trade after that. So how you can expect to leave a major trading block accounting for about 48% of your exports and do better when you are exhibiting none of the skills necessary to do it is beyond me.

sondagefaux

Recently the Schengen countries (most of which are in the EU, but also inlcuding Iceland, Norway, Switzerland) introduced tougher controls at airports for passengers arriving from non-Schengen countries, including EU but non-Schengen countries, such as the UK.

The resulting queues have led to some choice comments.

LeinsterDub

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr1KEoJqJ0

Some very interesting discussion about airlines with Micheal O'Leary. EU airlines must be 50% own by EU nationals. IAG and City Jet have ownership issues according to Micheal and the EU are using airlines as a rod to beat Britain

demfad

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr1KEoJqJ0

Some very interesting discussion about airlines with Micheal O'Leary. EU airlines must be 50% own by EU nationals. AIG and City Jet have ownership issues according to Micheal and the EU are using airlines as a rod to beat Britain

Aer Lingus?

joeysoap

sondagefaux wrote: »

Recently the Schengen countries (most of which are in the EU, but also inlcuding Iceland, Norway, Switzerland) introduced tougher controls at airports for passengers arriving from non-Schengen countries, including EU but non-Schengen countries, such as the UK.

The resulting queues have led to some choice comments.

Aren't we subject to the same regulations? There's a seperate thread on boards about the delays at immigration at Dublin airport. Perhaps we should join Shengen?

murphaph

I guess IAG (owner of BA, Iberia, Aer Lingus and Vuelling) was intended.

LeinsterDub

murphaph wrote: »

I guess IAG (owner of BA, Iberia, Aer Lingus and Vuelling) was intended.

Yes the airline not the insurance group

sondagefaux

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inr1KEoJqJ0

Some very interesting discussion about airlines with Micheal O'Leary. EU airlines must be 50% own by EU nationals. IAG and City Jet have ownership issues according to Micheal and the EU are using airlines as a rod to beat Britain

He's also claming that some EU airlines are pushing for an arrangement that would be unacceptable to the UK in order to prevent UK airlines from exercising the EU's freedoms after Brexit.

European airlines are opposed to the UK getting "any favourable deal" to secure air routes after Brexit, Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has warned.

The carrier's chief executive said EU airlines are "actively campaigning" for the UK to be offered a bilateral agreement which would be "almost unacceptable" to those in favour of a so-called hard Brexit.

The single market for aviation, created in the 1990s, means there are no commercial restrictions for airlines flying within the EU.

Mr O'Leary again warned that flights between the UK and the EU will be grounded in summer 2019 if no deal is reached by September next year.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0802/894743-eu-airlines-opposed-to-uk-getting-any-favourable-deal/

Only to be expected really.

Why should UK airlines get all the benefits of EU arrangements unless they're subject to the ECJ if there's a dispute?

Junkyard Tom

sondagefaux wrote: »

One of the arguments that was used...

Another one was the UK's 'impressive' comaprative unemployment numbers which, of course, completely ignores the nature of the employment, the rate of remuneration, and so on.

Jim2007

Nody wrote: »

But on the flip side how is DUP suppose to sell a hard Irish border when they got people who're farming on both sides of the border currently? No matter how you try to set the border DUP ends up in an impossible position that will alienate part of their base.

This holds true for the whole of the U.K. If things continue as they are, then the first real physical impact will be towards the second half of next year when it becomes impossible to book flights out of the U.K. The business trips, the ski trips, the Christmas markets and the week in the sun will involve a trip to Dublin if you live up North. If you are on mainland UK it will a ferry to Dublin, the French coast or the train to Paris. It will be more expensive and the capacity is not there.

The other thing of course is that even if they could fly, they don't have any agreement that would allow to enter the Schengen Area nor the EU. Now given that airlines are responsible for the cost of landing an illegal, I'd expect airlines will start to refuse bookings for any flights after 31st of Mar.

I think it is only at this point that voters will really start to realize what BREXIT really means.

I saw it with anti FMOP voters here in Switzerland, they were all very happy with their win, until students started to get rejected for the Erasmus program. Then they suddenly woke up to what it means to break a bilateral with the EU.

PeadarCo

Jim2007 wrote:

I think it is only at this point that voters will really start to realize what BREXIT really means.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the impact of Brexit really hits. Currently there has been no serious shocks. The issues like weak sterling and associated inflation have been incremental. In a years time we'll really see how serious the UK is about Brexit as the shocks begin to come its way. That's assuming the UK government continues with its current mess of Brexit negotiation(or lack of)

Blowfish

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I would argue the other way around. The UK Government are clear that they want to keep the border with the Republic open. To claim the UK want a hard border isn't true.

It depends on what trade and customs terms Brussels are willing to offer the UK. If there is a hard border it will be because of the EU insisting on it and not the other way around.

It's pretty obviously only up to the UK what relationship it wants with the EU in the future. Brussels isn't going to force the UK to leave the customs union, but if the UK wants to leave it, that's their decision and will require some sort of border put in place.

solodeogloria

Blowfish wrote: »

It's pretty obviously only up to the UK what relationship it wants with the EU in the future. Brussels isn't going to force the UK to leave the customs union, but if the UK wants to leave it, that's their decision and will require some sort of border put in place.

Good evening!

You're missing the point. The UK want a third country free trade agreement with the European Union. They have been very clear about what they want despite all the claims they haven't been. Position papers have been published, the Great Repeal Bill is available online and priorities were set in the Lancaster House speech and the Article 50 letter.

It is up to the European Commission to decide what they can get in the negotiations given what they've asked for.
The border can't be resolved until trade and customs terms are made clear.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Junkyard Tom

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think it is only at this point that voters will really start to realize what BREXIT really means.

And what then? Do the British public blame the EU? Do they blame the Tories? Boris Johnson? Do the young blame the old? Some combination of all of the above?

Someone's going to have to drop the anchors sooner rather than later.

Jim2007

solodeogloria wrote: »

They have been very clear about what they want despite all the claims they haven't been. Position papers have been published, the Great Repeal Bill is available online and priorities were set in the Lancaster House speech and the Article 50 letter.

Well it you think they are so clear on what they want, why are we still waiting for the positions papers on this?

solodeogloria wrote: »

It is up to the European Commission to decide what they can get in the negotiations given what they've asked for.
The border can't be resolved until trade and customs terms are made clear.

No it is not up to the Commission, other than to react to the actions of the UK. If the UK goes a head and sign a trade deal with the US along the lines being suggested. Then they will not have a FTA with the EU. Because the two are not compatible. Neither the US or the EU are going to allow the UK to become some kind of backdoor between the two trading blocks.

Jim2007

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

And what then? Do the British public blame the EU? Do they blame the Tories? Boris Johnson? Do the young blame the old? Some combination of all of the above?

Hard to say, but it will come to ahead at the latest for the GE in 2022 or possibly sooner...

Jim2007

PeadarCo wrote: »

That's assuming the UK government continues with its current mess of Brexit negotiation(or lack of)

I think they will because I suspect their expectation is that the EU's No does not really mean No and if they hang on they will eventually get what they want, some how...

But when a European says No, they really mean No and that is what the UK does not understand.

Capt'n Midnight

Finally some concrete plans from the UK .

£50K , and a 2 year fixed contract is not huge money considering how important this is

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40803267

The government has revealed through a job advert how it plans to tackle unfair trade after Brexit.

...
"This is a brand new function in the UK and delivering a fully functional and fit-for-purpose organisation by October 2018 is a huge challenge," read the advert.

The job offers a salary of between £48,483 and £56,370.

https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/jobs.cgi?owner=5070000&ownertype=fair&jcode=1550924&posting_code=0&language

murphaph

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Finally some concrete plans from the UK .

£50K , and a 2 year fixed contract is not huge money considering how important this is

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40803267
https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/jobs.cgi?owner=5070000&ownertype=fair&jcode=1550924&posting_code=0&language

By the time they have replicated all the functions currently shared among the other member states, they will spend more than their EU contribution. That's my prediction anyway.

Capt'n Midnight

Just a reminder that if the UK actually knows what it wants it hasn't even told it's negotiators.

Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best
Otto Von Bismark

Or to put it another way, a good compromise leaves both parties equally dissatisfied. However, the UK still hasn't made it clear what compromises, if any, it will make.



concerns about Brexit talks
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40655843

One source told me "I've got nothing to say" when talking to EU counterparts, because ministers haven't got to the stage yet of being clear about the detail of what they want. They are still focused on generalities rather than giving directions on the nitty gritty. On the Brexit "divorce bill" for example, I'm told the expectation across Whitehall is that it will be somewhere between 30 and 50 billion euros. But rather than the UK actually putting forward what they think might be acceptable, they are hanging back, rather than digging in.

EU data protection rules will kick in if the UK drops EU privacy rights.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40788180 UK Home Secretary

“We want [technology companies] to work more closely with us on end-to-end encryption, so that where there is particular need, where there is targeted need, under warrant, they share more information with us so that we can access it.”

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40798623

Apple boss Tim Cook has defended his company’s decision to comply with the Chinese government’s demand it remove VPN software from the App Store.

Yes I know ECHELON has been harvesting data for yonks but trend in the UK and Oz is for more general surveillance.

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote: »

By the time they have replicated all the functions currently shared among the other member states, they will spend more than their EU contribution. That's my prediction anyway.

Here's one cost to add to the list.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-european-medicines-agency-move-london-eu-cost-bill-520-million-nhs-europe-a7873226.html

Brexit: UK faces £520m bill for moving the European Medicines Agency from London to the EU

‘We could end up having to pay large amounts of money to lose highly skilled jobs and research capacity from the UK. It really is that crazy’