Brexit discussion thread II

robindch

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Country Squire wrote:

The Republic of Ireland has a population less than twice the size of Manchester. It has a history of seeing “England’s difficulty as Ireland’s Opportunity” (At the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, the slogan ‘England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity’ became synonymous among Irish nationalists and became the driving force behind physical force nationalism in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century). Just like its Irish-blooded compatriots in Glasgow who form the basis for the bothersome SNP – Irish navvies who went over to Scotland to build the infrastructure the local population needed. The Irish Taoiseach, mon de Valera, formally offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Adolf Hitler in 1945. The southern Irish – just like their northern friends Sinn Fein – can be trusted about as far as one can throw them. Nothing has changed.

[...]

The Irish Government under its latest lippy Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, continues the Irish tradition of being bloody difficult and is used like de Valera by the Germans. Varadkar sees Brexit as an opportunity to be a pain in the situpon. He has said the country will not “design a border for the Brexiteers” as his foreign minister said there was no proposal to make the Irish Sea the new frontier with the UK after withdrawal.

Let’s take stock for a moment. Eire is the land of puppy farms, rain-soaked holidays, dingy bars, drugs mule celebs, verbal diarrhoea and squeaky fiddles – that fool Bob Geldof comes from there. A “country” where the burglars from Britain with surnames like Kettle and Rafferty – return to build eyesore “palaces” in ratholes like Rathkeale (a small Irish town swollen by the proceeds of crime). Eire is bankrupt yet replete with EU white elephants (many unfinished as the money dried up to complete motorways and other infrastructure) – the destination for lots of British money via the EU unelected overlords in recent decades. The country’s banking history is a joke – wasted away on a property boom and buying in furniture restoring old British castles for narcissistic Irish “entrepreneurs”.

There are two rates of corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland: 12.5% for trading income, 25% for non-trading income – Eire cannot generate enough business for itself without attracting offshore business and depends upon dressing itself up as the BVI with Guinness. Eire’s history is basically British – before that it was a bunch of warring families and a corrupt church involved in an incessant spiral of gob****eing and slaying – certainly not a nation. The best things in Eire are all British – amongst them Cadbury’s chocolate, Jack Charlton and the English breakfast. Even their much-heralded patron Saint was a Brit and they had to kidnap the poor fellow – at the age of sixteen Patrick was captured by a group of Irish pirates who brought him to Ireland where he was enslaved and held captive for several years (one wonders if the plastic Paddies in Boston and Chicago who dye their rivers green know this?).

Want to see some Irish loyalty? During the Falklands Crisis even Guinness considered turning itself into an English company and was prepared to drop all associations with Ireland .

The British Government should pay as much attention to whining Varadkar as it does now to the punctured gasbag Sturgeon. The Irish trading corporation tax rate should be undercut by a post Brexit UK economy and just sit back, Britons, and watch the rush of business that will both return from Eire and emerge from the rest of the world, especially Trump’s America and in the form of flight capital from China and the East. London as a financial haven independent of the EU and its upcoming financial travails (just look at Deutsche Bank and the EU’s dependency on corporate bonds in basket cases like Siemens) will flourish even more.

Eire’s dairy can get lost – as Britain’s farmers get supported post Brexit by British consumers for once, and delicious Welsh lamb, British beef and the wonderful dairy products of Northern Ireland and Scotland grace our kitchen tables. The border with Eire should be set up however the UK wants it – however much Eire and the EU whine. If the IRA kick up a fuss, just carry on as things were in 1998 – crack down on the cowards to the point where they have nowhere to go except surrender or negotiate. They will be seen worldwide in the same light as Al Qaeda.

[...]

If Britain wants to it can run Eire into the ground where there are no consolations – its spotty youths will brain drain again to the US and Britain and its economy will crumble. In a decade, after some bumps in the road, Britain and the North of Ireland will flourish. Varadkar will be on the political scrapheap like Sturgeon. The squeals of puppies trapped in car boots will be long gone. Britain’s farms will be booming. The EU will be without Italy and the vacuous Macron experiment will be a distant memory, as will Merkel who won’t dare show herself in public after a fatwa has been put on her by the Muslim Mayor of Cologne.

Maybe then prodigal Eire will seek membership of the UK. Unlikely. Unless they somehow – miraculously – developed loyalty, we’d not actually want them or their hurdy-gurdy.

steddyeddy

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

The xenphobia that fuelled Brexit ladies and gentlemen.

Considering the history of British immigrants in Ireland it's amazing they think we care if they have any good will towards us. Couldn't care less frankly. Anti-Irish sentiment was common in Britain long before the IRA.

FrancieBrady

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Didn't know puppy farms were a thing here - you learn something new every day.

Professor Moriarty

steddyeddy wrote: »

The xenphobia that fuelled Brexit ladies and gentlemen.

Considering the history of British immigrants in Ireland it's amazing they think we care if they have any good will towards us. Couldn't care less frankly. Anti-Irish sentiment was common in Britain long before the IRA.

It's actually quite funny in a Waterford Whispers News way. Some accurate observations mixed in with tongue-in-cheek stereotyping.

joeysoap

That article is unbelievable, who writes such trash and is there a market for it?

* Unfortunately we have a few illegal ' puppy farms'. Smuggling of very badly mistreated pups to the uk for large profit is an ongoing problem for customs, gardai and RSPCA.

On reading it again; is it a joke?

Billy86

Who cares? His children if he has any will be desperate to claim any Irishness they can find before long, even just to gain an EU passport.

flatty

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Country Squire wrote:

The Republic of Ireland has a population less than twice the size of Manchester. It has a history of seeing “England’s difficulty as Ireland’s Opportunity” (At the outbreak of the First World War in August 1914, the slogan ‘England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity’ became synonymous among Irish nationalists and became the driving force behind physical force nationalism in Ireland during the first half of the twentieth century). Just like its Irish-blooded compatriots in Glasgow who form the basis for the bothersome SNP – Irish navvies who went over to Scotland to build the infrastructure the local population needed. The Irish Taoiseach, mon de Valera, formally offered his condolences to the German Minister in Dublin on the death of Adolf Hitler in 1945. The southern Irish – just like their northern friends Sinn Fein – can be trusted about as far as one can throw them. Nothing has changed.

[...]

The Irish Government under its latest lippy Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, continues the Irish tradition of being bloody difficult and is used like de Valera by the Germans. Varadkar sees Brexit as an opportunity to be a pain in the situpon. He has said the country will not “design a border for the Brexiteers” as his foreign minister said there was no proposal to make the Irish Sea the new frontier with the UK after withdrawal.

Let’s take stock for a moment. Eire is the land of puppy farms, rain-soaked holidays, dingy bars, drugs mule celebs, verbal diarrhoea and squeaky fiddles – that fool Bob Geldof comes from there. A “country” where the burglars from Britain with surnames like Kettle and Rafferty – return to build eyesore “palaces” in ratholes like Rathkeale (a small Irish town swollen by the proceeds of crime). Eire is bankrupt yet replete with EU white elephants (many unfinished as the money dried up to complete motorways and other infrastructure) – the destination for lots of British money via the EU unelected overlords in recent decades. The country’s banking history is a joke – wasted away on a property boom and buying in furniture restoring old British castles for narcissistic Irish “entrepreneurs”.

There are two rates of corporation tax in the Republic of Ireland: 12.5% for trading income, 25% for non-trading income – Eire cannot generate enough business for itself without attracting offshore business and depends upon dressing itself up as the BVI with Guinness. Eire’s history is basically British – before that it was a bunch of warring families and a corrupt church involved in an incessant spiral of gob****eing and slaying – certainly not a nation. The best things in Eire are all British – amongst them Cadbury’s chocolate, Jack Charlton and the English breakfast. Even their much-heralded patron Saint was a Brit and they had to kidnap the poor fellow – at the age of sixteen Patrick was captured by a group of Irish pirates who brought him to Ireland where he was enslaved and held captive for several years (one wonders if the plastic Paddies in Boston and Chicago who dye their rivers green know this?).

Want to see some Irish loyalty? During the Falklands Crisis even Guinness considered turning itself into an English company and was prepared to drop all associations with Ireland .

The British Government should pay as much attention to whining Varadkar as it does now to the punctured gasbag Sturgeon. The Irish trading corporation tax rate should be undercut by a post Brexit UK economy and just sit back, Britons, and watch the rush of business that will both return from Eire and emerge from the rest of the world, especially Trump’s America and in the form of flight capital from China and the East. London as a financial haven independent of the EU and its upcoming financial travails (just look at Deutsche Bank and the EU’s dependency on corporate bonds in basket cases like Siemens) will flourish even more.

Eire’s dairy can get lost – as Britain’s farmers get supported post Brexit by British consumers for once, and delicious Welsh lamb, British beef and the wonderful dairy products of Northern Ireland and Scotland grace our kitchen tables. The border with Eire should be set up however the UK wants it – however much Eire and the EU whine. If the IRA kick up a fuss, just carry on as things were in 1998 – crack down on the cowards to the point where they have nowhere to go except surrender or negotiate. They will be seen worldwide in the same light as Al Qaeda.

[...]

If Britain wants to it can run Eire into the ground where there are no consolations – its spotty youths will brain drain again to the US and Britain and its economy will crumble. In a decade, after some bumps in the road, Britain and the North of Ireland will flourish. Varadkar will be on the political scrapheap like Sturgeon. The squeals of puppies trapped in car boots will be long gone. Britain’s farms will be booming. The EU will be without Italy and the vacuous Macron experiment will be a distant memory, as will Merkel who won’t dare show herself in public after a fatwa has been put on her by the Muslim Mayor of Cologne.

Maybe then prodigal Eire will seek membership of the UK. Unlikely. Unless they somehow – miraculously – developed loyalty, we’d not actually want them or their hurdy-gurdy.

That's the best thing I've read on boards in ages.
Bored, quite talented wum I'd say.

Blowfish

flatty wrote: »

That's the best thing I've read on boards in ages.
Bored, quite talented wum I'd say.

I'm actually not sure that site is satire/wum. One of their writers also writes for Breitbart.

ancapailldorcha

robindch wrote: »

Country Squire - a splendidly nasty blog by some fist-wavy English type - has turned the razor-like sharpness of his/her mind to the thorny topic of Brexit and the Irish, thusly:

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/08/10/get-stuffed-eire/

Pretty harrowing. I find it easy to forget these types even exist due to my living in places like London and Manchester.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

An interesting set of polls have been produced by Buzzfeed on Brexit and what remainers and leavers believe about it.

Interestingly it shows that most remainers don't want to be subject to all ECJ decisions and prefer a scenario where the UK continues to adopt some EU law without ECJ oversight.

It also shows that both sets of voters want control over borders. Interestingly it shows that leavers want passport and custom checks on the Northern Ireland border.

Single market access also wasn't a big issue for remainers, but both leavers and remainers are willing to pay something to the EU for leaving, and even more interestingly, potentially something per-annum to continue trading into the single market. (The leavers in this poll seem more liberal than me on this issue!)

The findings seem to go quite well in tandem with the YouGov polling after the invocation of Article 50.

So, Professor Moriarty, I don't feel in a minority.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

LeinsterDub

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

An interesting set of polls have been produced by Buzzfeed on Brexit and what remainers and leavers believe about it.

Buzzfeed, I'd put more stock in a poll conducted of my local pub by the barman.
Should of read more than the opening paragraph initially.

Billy86

It's actually London School of Economics and Oxford University, and it backs up what many here have said - the UK is on a suicide run which if followed is going to end really, really badly for them. They'll get laughed right out of the room with their 'pay a fee for single market access' idea, unless of course it's a ridiculously huge sum.

oppenheimer1

The problem with these studies is that the repercussions of each different scenario is still abstract and difficult for a lay person to understand. One study had 57% of people backing both open and closed borders at the same time. The researchers had to force options on people to prevent them taking contradictory stances. This means at least half the population doesn't understand the issues at all.

Asking the British public what it wants is next to pointless, because it is not the British public that will get to decide the softness of the Brexit that it gets.

Fratton Fred

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Pretty harrowing. I find it easy to forget these types even exist due to my living in places like London and Manchester.

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

ancapailldorcha

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

They definitely do, though. In Oxford, I had a good chunk of a pub chant "Potato Famine" at me for a solid 5 minutes until I realised they weren't going to stop. I've had workmates who've, for some reason insisted on regailing me with tales of British military bravery and conquest, particularly in relation to Ireland. It's definitely there, even in liberal, University towns like Oxford.

solodeogloria

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They definitely do, though. In Oxford, I had a good chunk of a pub chant "Potato Famine" at me for a solid 5 minutes until I realised they weren't going to stop. I've had workmates who've, for some reason insisted on regailing me with tales of British military bravery and conquest, particularly in relation to Ireland. It's definitely there, even in liberal, University towns like Oxford.

Good evening!

I think everyone knows it's there (I'm sure it's there in respect to British people living in Ireland also), but as for what extent it's there is another question. I'm personally quite surprised at your stories. I've not had anything apart from good humour about being Irish over the years I've been living here. I can't say I've been anything else apart from very well received.

As for people saying most leave voters are like this, that's also nonsense. During the referendum I was living in a majority remain borough of London. Now I live in a majority leave vote borough of London, possibly by the highest margin. I can't say that attitudes towards Irish people are any different.

I think drawing big conclusions about leave voters from a reactionary blog is a bit silly at best.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Capt'n Midnight

Strong and Stable.


James Chapman claimed two cabinet ministers had expressed interest in a new centre party to oppose Brexit.

Brexit will "make Black Wednesday look like a picnic", says David Davis' former aide James Chapman (left)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40896987

currency strategists at US investment bank Morgan Stanley are even forecasting that the euro could move "beyond parity" with the pound on the currency markets for the first time ever in early 2018.

oppenheimer1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

Oh please. While the squire is a pretty extreme example, you only have to scratch the surface of British attitudes until the anti-Irish sentiment arises, the less educated or older they are the more vociferous it is. Indeed it is the same here, dig a little deeper and antipathy to the British state will arise among many Irish people.

It's hardly surprising really, the Irish and British governments have only been cooperating with each other in a meaningful way for the last 25 years. To cloud it in a mild euphemism, our shared history, means it will be 50-60 years before it really goes away.

Calina

solodeogloria wrote: »

Interestingly it shows that most remainers don't want to be subject to all ECJ decisions and prefer a scenario where the UK continues to adopt some EU law without ECJ oversight.

It also shows that both sets of voters want control over borders. Interestingly it shows that leavers want passport and custom checks on the Northern Ireland border.

It's a couple of hours since I read the Buzzfeed piece but IIRC, they strongly implied that in the event of Brexit, this is what people wanted.

From this, no logical person should extrapolate that this is what Remain voters want in the event of Brexit not happening. Plus, I think it would be useful to wait for the LSE piece to actually come out. Nothing against Buzzfeed and their Europe guy, Alberto Nardelli, is very good at his brief.

However, the problem is that what the British people think they want and what their economy needs are diverging.

Billy86

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Strong and Stable.


James Chapman claimed two cabinet ministers had expressed interest in a new centre party to oppose Brexit.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40896987

It's not even off right now - currently at 109.9c to 1GBP, which might be it's lowest ever?

murphaph

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Oh please. While the squire is a pretty extreme example, you only have to scratch the surface of British attitudes until the anti-Irish sentiment arises, the less educated or older they are the more vociferous it is. Indeed it is the same here, dig a little deeper and antipathy to the British state will arise among many Irish people.

It's hardly surprising really, the Irish and British governments have only been cooperating with each other in a meaningful way for the last 25 years. To cloud it in a mild euphemism, our shared history, means it will be 50-60 years before it really goes away.

Nope. Brexit is going to set it all back again. Wait and see.

murphaph

Billy86 wrote: »

It's not even off right now - currently at 109.9c to 1GBP, which might be it's lowest ever?

No. It was almost at parity in 2008.

Leonard Hofstadter

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You mean you live in the real world?

The quoted article is little more than a blog written by zealots. I'd give it as much time to that as I would something like Saoirse or some other looney web site/news site.

Obviously the usual suspects will use this to support their own prejudices, but that unfortunately is the nature of the internet.

Oh please. While the squire is a pretty extreme example, you only have to scratch the surface of British attitudes until the anti-Irish sentiment arises, the less educated or older they are the more vociferous it is. Indeed it is the same here, dig a little deeper and antipathy to the British state will arise among many Irish people.

It's hardly surprising really, the Irish and British governments have only been cooperating with each other in a meaningful way for the last 25 years. To cloud it in a mild euphemism, our shared history, means it will be 50-60 years before it really goes away.

In my almost five years of living in the UK (and in a city that voted leave albeit by a very slim margin), not once have I come across anything that could be even remotely considered anti-Irish. While I hate Brexit I've absolutely nothing against the English, they've been very good to me and my nationality has never been an issue even when we talk about Brexit.

In Ireland on the other hand some still have the chip on the shoulder....

steddyeddy

captainspeed wrote: »

In my almost five years of living in the UK (and in a city that voted leave albeit by a very slim margin), not once have I come across anything that could be even remotely considered anti-Irish. While I hate Brexit I've absolutely nothing against the English, they've been very good to me and my nationality has never been an issue even when we talk about Brexit.

In Ireland on the other hand some still have the chip on the shoulder....

It's Ireland has a chip on its shoulder....... in a thread about the UK leaving the EU.

solodeogloria

murphaph wrote: »

Nope. Brexit is going to set it all back again. Wait and see.

Good evening!

And that's the proof that you're on the extreme side of the argument.

Good relations with the UK aren't predicated on the UK being a member of the EU. Perhaps that's the fickle notion behind your concept of friendship but there's no need to protect this onto an entire nation.

To be honest. I think Britain has more knowledge, care and consideration of Irish issues than your "friends" on the continent do.

I hope Irish people continue to see our friendship with the UK as being hugely valuable.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ancapailldorcha

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think drawing big conclusions about leave voters from a reactionary blog is a bit silly at best.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I never mentioned Leave voters. I was referring to the sentiment described in the article that Robindch linked to.

murphaph

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

And that's the proof that you're on the extreme side of the argument.

Good relations with the UK aren't predicated on the UK being a member of the EU. Perhaps that's the fickle notion behind your concept of friendship but there's no need to protect this onto an entire nation.

To be honest. I think Britain has more knowledge, care and consideration of Irish issues than your "friends" on the continent do.

I hope Irish people continue to see our friendship with the UK as being hugely valuable.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

It's got nothing to do with them being outside the EU and everything to do with the mess this creates for Ireland.

I would have been quite pro-British before all this. My mother spent many of her formative years in Eastbourne. We have English cousins. Brexit is a huge let down for me personally. I feel the UK is bailing on friends without any consideration whatsoever.

indioblack

murphaph wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with them being outside the EU and everything to do with the mess this creates for Ireland.

I would have been quite pro-British before all this. My mother spent many of her formative years in Eastbourne. We have English cousins. Brexit is a huge let down for me personally. I feel the UK is bailing on friends without any consideration whatsoever.

I voted Remain - and, when the result of the referendum was announced, one of my first emotions was that we were turning our backs on Europe.
Logically, though, there is the consideration that nations joined the EEC/EU for their own self-interest. Industry, security, harmonization - the building up of infrastructure to increase each nations wealth.
It could be argued that a nation leaving the EU is also doing so for the same logical, and presumably acceptable, self-interest.

kingchess

Saw this little gem over on the funny vids thread BREXIT n (toht l krap) the undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.

FrancieBrady

indioblack wrote: »

I voted Remain - and, when the result of the referendum was announced, one of my first emotions was that we were turning our backs on Europe.
Logically, though, there is the consideration that nations joined the EEC/EU for their own self-interest. Industry, security, harmonization - the building up of infrastructure to increase each nations wealth.
It could be argued that a nation leaving the EU is also doing so for the same logical, and presumably acceptable, self-interest.

I vaguely remember the debate about joining, it was an informed choice.
The debate to leave was drowned out by fear mongering, propaganda, xenophobia and bluster.
The 'debate' is only happening now and IMO Leave wouldn't have a hope in hell of winning.
Very sad for the UK.

ancapailldorcha

kingchess wrote: »

Saw this little gem over on the funny vids thread BREXIT n (toht l krap) the undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed.

Please refrain from posting comedy videos here and read the charter before posting again.

Nody

indioblack wrote: »

I voted Remain - and, when the result of the referendum was announced, one of my first emotions was that we were turning our backs on Europe.
Logically, though, there is the consideration that nations joined the EEC/EU for their own self-interest. Industry, security, harmonization - the building up of infrastructure to increase each nations wealth.
It could be argued that a nation leaving the EU is also doing so for the same logical, and presumably acceptable, self-interest.

I'd agree if there was any actual benefit for UK in leaving; the only "benefit" is that sometime over a decade or two away there might, just might, be a better future being outside EU somehow. This is not about self-interest; this is about watching your friend cutting themselves claiming it helps the itch and telling them that they need serious help.

indioblack

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I vaguely remember the debate about joining, it was an informed choice.
The debate to leave was drowned out by fear mongering, propaganda, xenophobia and bluster.
The 'debate' is only happening now and IMO Leave wouldn't have a hope in hell of winning.
Very sad for the UK.

I found the referendum debate largely juvenile and amateurish - whilst the campaign was in progress I was inclined not to follow it - were it not for the enormity of what was being proposed.
Whilst voting to Remain, my hope now is that Leaving works out - and if that sounds vague I'm probably in the company of many who voted Leave.

indioblack

Nody wrote: »

I'd agree if there was any actual benefit for UK in leaving; the only "benefit" is that sometime over a decade or two away there might, just might, be a better future being outside EU somehow. This is not about self-interest; this is about watching your friend cutting themselves claiming it helps the itch and telling them that they need serious help.

We may disagree about the self-interest bit. I find myself in the position, and I'm not alone, of wanting something to work that I didn't agree to. In the year on from the referendum the anti-Brexiteers have put forward clearer views as to the basic error of leaving than the Leave camp have as regards what the future will hold for the UK.
Barring a monumental political sea-change, [possible, but unlikely], the country is in the position described by that annoyingly obvious phrase - We are where we are.

oppenheimer1

Billy86 wrote: »

It's not even off right now - currently at 109.9c to 1GBP, which might be it's lowest ever?

£1.02 to the Euro in 2008 is the all time low for the pound vs Euro.

captainspeed wrote: »

In my almost five years of living in the UK (and in a city that voted leave albeit by a very slim margin), not once have I come across anything that could be even remotely considered anti-Irish. While I hate Brexit I've absolutely nothing against the English, they've been very good to me and my nationality has never been an issue even when we talk about Brexit.

In Ireland on the other hand some still have the chip on the shoulder....

I lived in the UK for a period of time too. And while never the victim of outright hostility your often hear talk of facking paddies, and other nonsense that could be dismissed as pub banter. And it may have been just that but I feel it demonstrates a sometimes subtle undercurrent of prejudice against the Irish.

Irish people under 30 in particular seem to forget that there is a lot of history between the two countries and much of it is in living memory. It's only natural that there would be deep seated prejudice (although anti Irish sentiment in the UK predates the troubles)

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Please refrain from posting comedy videos here and read the charter before posting again.

You are aware he didn't even post a video...

kingchess

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Please refrain from posting comedy videos here and read the charter before posting again.

I did not post a video,and quoted a humorous description of Brexit,which I believe is an accurate description of what is actually happening, (to err is human,to forgive divine)

robindch

indioblack wrote: »

Whilst voting to Remain, my hope now is that Leaving works out - and if that sounds vague I'm probably in the company of many who voted Leave.

Leaving the world's largest trading bloc, which is on one's doorstep, which has massive, functioning trade networks in place, in order to pursue other unspecified 'trade deals' with countries, the majority of which are much further away, where existing trade networks are small, which typically have authoritarian governments, less per-capita purchasing power and strictly limited interest in the kind of services which makes up around 80% of the UK's GDP?

Even economically, it makes no sense at all and I do find it unusual that so many remain-voters are now folding up their tents and hoping it will all just go away.

Brexit was never about economics, but about a fight within the Tory party which got out of hand and which, at heart, was about chauvanistic nationalism which is now in the ascendant.

There's no way that this will end well for anybody, least of all the UK and this needs to be pointed out.

steddyeddy

100% correct. This need to be repeated: it was about a fight within the Tory party. It was about a fight between David and Boris, two Etonians who were brought up in such privilege that they will never feel the consequences of their actions or indeed will never care. Empathy comes from shared experiences. They share no hurdles with the common man so thought nothing of an exercise in narionalism to soothe imperialistic desires. Boris and Jacob Reece Mog thought it sad that Britain relies on the EU so they are delusionally leading the UK into isolation. They've managed to convince the ordinary man of this narrative too. One caller to the James O'Brien show rang into say Britain owned 2/3 of the world and they'll be fine.

It's not about economics. It's about power plays and old imperialistic nationalism. Britain will be destroyed after this.

indioblack

robindch wrote: »

Leaving the world's largest trading bloc, which is on one's doorstep, which has massive, functioning trade networks in place, in order to pursue other unspecified 'trade deals' with countries, the majority of which are much further away, where existing trade networks are small, which typically have authoritarian governments, less per-capita purchasing power and strictly limited interest in the kind of services which makes up around 80% of the UK's GDP?

Even economically, it makes no sense at all and I do find it unusual that so many remain-voters are now folding up their tents and hoping it will all just go away.

Brexit was never about economics, but about a fight within the Tory party which got out of hand and which, at heart, was about chauvanistic nationalism which is now in the ascendant.

There's no way that this will end well for anybody, least of all the UK and this needs to be pointed out.

I suggested a year ago that with a relatively close vote, [48% to 52% of those who voted], a second referendum to confirm the majority in favour of leaving would not be unreasonable. This was over in AH - and I was blasted by several posters for being undemocratic.
There have been so many negative aspects to this whole business from the start that I found it almost embarrassing to comment on the route taken by the electorate.
I stick to my initial response that this is self-interest - I never claimed that it was wise.
Sure, this was a spat within the Tory party. Some of those who started the mechanism that led to the referendum result have sloped off - others have unfortunately remained. There is a Remain PM who now pushes for exiting because it's the democratic will - [large numbers don't always guarantee a correct decision].
Practically, the country won't collapse - though it may crumble a bit!
Muddling through may sound like something out of WW2 - but, aside from a massive political sea change, I'm uncertain how this circle can be squared.

steddyeddy

indioblack wrote: »

I suggested a year ago that with a relatively close vote, [48% to 52% of those who voted], a second referendum to confirm the majority in favour of leaving would not be unreasonable. This was over in AH - and I was blasted by several posters for being undemocratic.
There have been so many negative aspects to this whole business from the start that I found it almost embarrassing to comment on the route taken by the electorate.
I stick to my initial response that this is self-interest - I never claimed that it was wise.
Sure, this was a spat within the Tory party. Some of those who started the mechanism that led to the referendum result have sloped off - others have unfortunately remained. There is a Remain PM who now pushes for exiting because it's the democratic will - [large numbers don't always guarantee a correct decision].
Practically, the country won't collapse - though it may crumble a bit!
Muddling through may sound like something out of WW2 - but, aside from a massive political sea change, I'm uncertain how this circle can be squared.

Who's the remain PM? Looking at the cabinet and Brexit negotiation team she's apointed she's a leave PM.

indioblack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Who's the remain PM? Looking at the cabinet and Brexit negotiation team she's apointed she's a leave PM.

OK - she was Remain before - now she's PM and convinced, Damascus like, in the wisdom of Brexit.

flatty

Teresa May is both thick as a ditch, and interested only in clinging to power, and cares nothing for the country, the economy, or the citizens beyond this.
I have this first hand from a senior person who has to work with her.
Never, they said, have they ever encountered a more amoral group of power hungry cretins, who's only interest is self. She/he included all those who in their summation were in the "top ten" in political circles at present, on both sides of the spectrum.

Sam Russell

steddyeddy wrote: »

Who's the remain PM? Looking at the cabinet and Brexit negotiation team she's apointed she's a leave PM.

The only interpretation of TMay as a 'Remain' was that she wanted to remain in the cabinet (assuming the Remain side won) but she hardly did any campaigning for the Remain side (about the same as Corbyn). Having lost the vote, Cameron ran away and she won the PM job by default and promptly tore off the disguise and became the ultimate Brexiteer, wanting nothing to do with the ECtHR because it had upset her attempts to deport a cleric she did not like, and wanted to prevent the ECJ for much the same reason. She refused to have a Parliamentary vote on Brexit (in case she lost it) but was forced to have one (even though it was an act little more than a tweet).

Just to reinforce her position, she secretly decided to go to the country (announcing it to a surprised media) to improve her majority because the polls showed her 20 points ahead. She lost the majority and nearly lost her job, but so badly did she do, that the Tories are terrified of another election so she is 'safe' for a while.

She was always a Brexiteer, right wing, and wibbly-wobbly. Her ambitions exceed her abilities by quite some margin.

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

The only interpretation of TMay as a 'Remain' was that she wanted to remain in the cabinet (assuming the Remain side won) but she hardly did any campaigning for the Remain side (about the same as Corbyn).

I've read in All Out War that she was asked not to do anything after she couldn't bring herself to give a pro-EU speech without bringing up the ECJ and her "Tens of thousands" target.

flatty

A second class degree in geography, and rest assured, she didn't spend her years at university propping up the college bar.

ancapailldorcha

flatty wrote: »

A second class degree in geography, and rest assured, she didn't spend her years at university propping up the college bar.

Enough trolling.

flatty

That's fact. Not trolling.

ancapailldorcha

flatty wrote: »

That's fact. Not trolling.

Having digs at her isn't what this discussion is for. No more please.

flatty

As Teresa May is setting the tone and timetable of the entire brexit campaign, using her own interpretation of brexit and foisting this onto an entire country come what may, seventeen million of whom voted against ,despite the downright lies and propaganda, surely her intelligence, motivation and honesty is absolutely relevant.
Look, I'd not be a mod on this place if you paid me, but this isn't idle conjecture on my part. I was on holidays recently and spent many hours in the company of an individual with the highest level of access to the workings of the current British "government"
If you like, I'll what's app you their credentials.
I think people should be aware of who is doing what in this, and why, given the gravity of the situation.
I have made my point , however, I'll not directly mention it again.
I am simply flabbergasted at the perversion of democracy here, covered with the fig leaf of a deeply flawed initial vote.

robindch

indioblack wrote: »

There is a Remain PM who now pushes for exiting because it's the democratic will - [large numbers don't always guarantee a correct decision].

It was not the "democratic will", since the a) population was lied to on a massive scale; b) there was no clear decision to make ('brexit means brexit' is a slogan, not a policy); c) the majority of the electorate was, and remains, uninformed about the reality of the EU and was, and remains, uninformed about the likely consequences of abandoning whatever EU institutions it may, or ultimately may not, choose to leave.

Democracy by referendum democracy can only work when it's run by responsible politicians delivering clear messages to an informed and unencumbered electorate. None of those conditions, unfortunately, applied during the brexit debate, the evil nadir of which was the daylight murder of Jo Cox.

indioblack wrote: »

Practically, the country won't collapse - though it may crumble a bit!

I'm not so sure about that. The economy will certainly reduce and it's likely that significant numbers of people will depart, or never arrive in the first place, to avoid the air of xenophobia which seems to have become normal. It's an open question just now whether the UK itself will disintegrate, though Sturgeon has made her views clear, as have the voters of Northern Ireland and Gibraltar. These things may well come back to haunt the UK.

indioblack wrote: »

[...] aside from a massive political sea change, I'm uncertain how this circle can be squared.

At the moment, the best off-ramp is to work towards an agreement regarding the general shape of a subsequent arrangement, then to hold a second referendum on whether to leave the existing arrangement in place, or to move ahead and implement the draft exit agreement.

It would have the benefit of addressing the lack of a clear question in last year's referendum.

Whether it will be able to stop the slow-motion national trainwreck that is brexit is a separate issue.