Brexit discussion thread II

demfad

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Juncker's speech yesterday has greatly increased the likelihood of a hard Brexit. The Tory press was gleefully all over it like a rash. It's as if the EU has decided that Brexit is an opportunity for further integration (though Poland and Hungary might spike those guns) now that British recalcitrance and their veto will be gone. The corollary of that is that Brits will believe that the Leavers were right all along about the EU. It's now very hard to see how this will be resolved amicably and in a way that suits all parties.

Don't agree. Juncker cant moderate his speeches afraid of how the Tories might spin it via their right wing media. The breakdown in relationship has all been one sided. If the British push ahead and leave the negotiations it will be economic suicide. THis just makes it easier to blame the EU. So what? They were looking for any excuse for this anyway.

murphaph

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I think you've misunderstood the motivations of a large portion of remain voters if you think the driver was emotional attachment to the Euro-federalist project.

I'm supportive of respecting the democratic decision of the people and implementing it. I'm supportive of taking back control from the EU.

As for how European I feel, I said I didn't have a lot of emotional stock. Feeling European in any case doesn't require attachment to the Euro-federalist project.

Given that Jean Claude Juncker has learned sod all from the Euro crisis I'm glad that Britain is out. His only answer to everything is more integration even though this is precisely the problem with the EU.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I favour further integration. You don't. That doesn't mean it's a problem. Some see it so, some don't.

Fwiw I used to be like you. But in 2017 I see a changing world and believe we in Europe need to stick together. There are those that would like to see us weakened and supplicant.

Jim2007

solodeogloria wrote: »

Take for instance membership of the Eurozone. Juncker is now saying that every member state should be a part of it. But Britain benefited significantly from being outside of it. Giving the bloc a new "finance minister" to strong arm member states isn't the answer.

How exactly has the UK benefited from being outside the Euro? And I mean is specific terms not your usual generalities!

Has it been able to use monetary policy to lessen the impacts of the financial crisis?

Was it able to avoid austerity?

Increase exports?

In todays world there are only two European central banks with the depth of resources necessary to play in the big league: ECB & SNB. The BOE simple does not have the resources to take on ether of these over the long term.

Jim2007

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Juncker's speech yesterday has greatly increased the likelihood of a hard Brexit.

I think we are rapidly reaching the point that where people in the EU no longer care what happens to the UK.

oppenheimer1

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think we are rapidly reaching the point that where people in the EU no longer care what happens to the UK.

Indeed. As we are English speaking and much of our media is created in the UK, there is a tendency to think events in the anglophone world are of greater importance globally than they actually are. Our proximity and the impact it will have here all make it a bigger deal for Ireland.

The continent has moved on though, Brexit is a story well down the order at this stage.

mountaintop

The Brexit referendum was a moment in time. It was a referendum held on one day to decide the entire future of a country. Based on that one day's referendum people who were too busy or disinterested to fully understand the ramifications of what it could mean voted based on vague senses of what Europe meant to them. People should have been provided with information beforehand. I know, I know, it's too late now. And another thing I've been meaning to say for a long time. I heard Liam Fox MP calling for a vote to leave in the run up to the referendum. His reasoning was he wanted to take back control, etc, etc, but also he wanted to preserve his cultural identity and heritage. He subsequently went onto say that the British had nothing to apologise for regarding the impact of its empire on the world. Liam Fox’s cultural heritage is Irish, he was born in a council house in Glasgow of Irish parents. If he was in America he’d be claiming his Irishness and proud of it. But he never mentions it and as far as I can see, is ashamed of it. I can’t stand the man.

Zubeneschamali

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's now very hard to see how this will be resolved amicably and in a way that suits all parties.

It was never possible.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Juncker's speech yesterday has greatly increased the likelihood of a hard Brexit. The Tory press was gleefully all over it like a rash. It's as if the EU has decided that Brexit is an opportunity for further integration (though Poland and Hungary might spike those guns) now that British recalcitrance and their veto will be gone. The corollary of that is that Brits will believe that the Leavers were right all along about the EU. It's now very hard to see how this will be resolved amicably and in a way that suits all parties.

What you will see now is other countries using their veto instead of the uk.

Take defence for example, the uk has always opposed a European army, so no one else has had to. Will Ireland allow this to happen? Will Denmark?

Will Ireland allow the eu to determine its fiscal policy?

An Ciarraioch

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What you will see now is other countries using their veto instead of the uk.

Take defence for example, the uk has always opposed a European army, so no one else has had to. Will Ireland allow this to happen? Will Denmark?

Will Ireland allow the eu to determine its fiscal policy?

Both issues require unanimity, which is why neither have ever progressed beyond discussion papers to date.

mountaintop

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

ambro25

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think we are rapidly reaching the point that where people in the EU no longer care what happens to the UK.

I've long been taking my daily news from, besides the UK (where I reside) and Ireland (where I used to reside and for which I still have a load of time, hence still active on Boards.ie ), France, Luxembourg and Belgium. And I think that oppenheimer1 is right, that particular boat sailed ages ago, tbh.

murphaph

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

I'm sick of the neutrality claim. We're not really neutral when we allow NATO aircraft to refuel.

I would not be in favour of joining NATO but I would favour a European army for sure.

murphaph

Here in Germany Brexit is a done deal. The UK is leaving. It's just a process to work through now. There is absolutely no fear among the population that Brexit could do major damage. Certainly not an election issue.

Fratton Fred

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

The Lisbon treaty referendum was pretty much voted down because it mentioned mutual defence. Having Irish soldiers being controlled by foreign imperialist countries just ain't gonna happen.

demfad

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sick of the neutrality claim. We're not really neutral when we allow NATO aircraft to refuel.

I would not be in favour of joining NATO but I would favour a European army for sure.

The current hybrid war Russia is waging makes neutrality more complex.

There is no doubt that our social media space is being infiltrated significantly by
paid trolls, SM bots and fake news. This epidemic is Europe wide. This MUST be defended against as our democracy can be subverted by it. Look at the US and UK for examples of this. At the moment there is cyber cooperation between many EU states. Ireland is not a fully participating member in this regard.
You can be neutral and defend yourself.
After a disastrous UK walkout of Brexit, when SM is screaming in unison that the fault is with the EU and we would be better off out, when our media follow this narrative like lemmings and people look on in horror as RW support and % for Ire-exit creep up...then it will already be too late to start defending.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

I'm sorry but the idea that Russia was the reason that the British people voted to leave the EU falls into a tin hat conspiracy theory category.

It is yet another excuse for people who can't get over the fact that the UK is leaving the EU.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Red_Wake

demfad wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sick of the neutrality claim. We're not really neutral when we allow NATO aircraft to refuel.

I would not be in favour of joining NATO but I would favour a European army for sure.

The current hybrid war Russia is waging makes neutrality more complex.

There is no doubt that our social media space is being infiltrated significantly by
paid trolls, SM bots and fake news. This epidemic is Europe wide. This MUST be defended against as our democracy can be subverted by it. Look at the US and UK for examples of this. At the moment there is cyber cooperation between many EU states. Ireland is not a fully participating member in this regard.
You can be neutral and defend yourself.
After a disastrous UK walkout of Brexit, when SM is screaming in unison that the fault is with the EU and we would be better off out, when our media follow this narrative like lemmings and people look on in horror as RW support and % for Ire-exit creep up...then it will already be too late to start defending.

There's no evidence of any of this, you're indulging in hysteria.

ambro25

solodeogloria wrote: »

I'm sorry but the idea that Russia was the reason that the British people voted to leave the EU falls into a tin hat conspiracy theory category.

Do you think that Members Of Parliament, who are members of the Commons Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee (PACAC), have any particular reason to sustain these "tin hat conspiracy theories"? I look forward to your counter-argument. And to your own evidence.

murphaph

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm sorry but the idea that Russia was the reason that the British people voted to leave the EU falls into a tin hat conspiracy theory category.

It is yet another excuse for people who can't get over the fact that the UK is leaving the EU.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

A tin hat is what soldiers used to wear. I guess you mean tin foil hat.

Anyway...the referendum was very close. Putin only needed to target a relatively small number of swing voters to sway the result.

View

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just remind me ...

How many UK Navy vessels are in the med assisting with rescuing the migrants from their rubber dinghies.

At the moment, HMS Echo, which replaced HMS Enterprise in December, which replaced RFA Mounts Bay, which replaced HMS Diamond......

Acording to EU Navfor Med, there are now no longer any UK vessels operating with the mission.

https://eeas.europa.eu/csdp-missions-operations/eunavfor-med/12215/deployed-units_en

They have all "checked out" as no doubt the Brexit government wanted.

Fratton Fred

View wrote: »

Acording to EU Navfor Med, there are now no longer any UK vessels operating with the mission.

https://eeas.europa.eu/csdp-missions-operations/eunavfor-med/12215/deployed-units_en

They have all "checked out" as no doubt the Brexit government wanted.

That list is out of date. (Which I would guess is why it is dated 10/10/16) as it also fails to show Le WB Yeats which is also on Operation Sophia duties.

HMS Echo is currently in the Straits of Gibralter.

demfad

Red_Wake wrote: »

There's no evidence of any of this, you're indulging in hysteria.

In Fairness, I have looked in depth at Russian interference in the US and European countries including the UK.
One of the bad actors involved in Brexit and Trump, Nigel Farage, has been very vocal in this country about Ireland leaving the EU.
Farage is a person of interest for the FBI in the Trump-Russia investigation. He also worked for Russia Today several times. He was to help run the Calexit campaign which received training in Kremlin funded trips to Russia, until the Calexit leader actually moved to Russia this year.
Farage works with Steve Bannon and his boss Robert Mercer, owner of Breitbart news and shadowy Big Data company Cambridge Analytica which worked on Brexit and US election.
For Russian trolls you can look at Irish SM sites. The journal.ie comment section is full of them.
On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
Here is a few prominent Irexit twitter handles:
AT MuintirNa AT AidiMac AT ExitEire

Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
They thought it couldnt happen in the US, they thought it couldnt happen in the UK. Signing up to all anti-hybrid war groups in Europe is vitally in our interest and should not affect our neutrality. We are allowed defend ourselves.

View

solodeogloria wrote: »

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

While I don't doubt you, when I hear things like this one has to treat it with a great deal of skepticism. Much like people said they'd move to Canada if Trump was elected, how many have followed through? It's an empty threat.

People will only leave the UK if the economy tanks.

Good evening!

For every person considering leaving there are many who want to stay. The UK is a fantastic country to live in. Good challenging work opportunities and great people. I'm not in a rush anywhere else.

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

Red_Wake

demfad wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

There's no evidence of any of this, you're indulging in hysteria.

In Fairness, I have looked in depth at Russian interference in the US and European countries including the UK.
One of the bad actors involved in Brexit and Trump, Nigel Farage, has been very vocal in this country about Ireland leaving the EU.
Farage is a person of interest for the FBI in the Trump-Russia investigation. He also worked for Russia Today several times. He was to help run the Calexit campaign which received training in Kremlin funded trips to Russia, until the Calexit leader actually moved to Russia this year.
Farage works with Steve Bannon and his boss Robert Mercer, owner of Breitbart news and shadowy Big Data company Cambridge Analytica which worked on Brexit and US election.
For Russian trolls you can look at Irish SM sites. The journal.ie comment section is full of them.
On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
Here is a few prominent Irexit twitter handles:
AT MuintirNa   AT AidiMac  AT ExitEire

Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
They thought it couldnt happen in the US, they thought it couldnt happen in the UK. Signing up to all anti-hybrid war groups in Europe is vitally in our interest and should not affect our neutrality. We are allowed defend ourselves.

But all of this is abroad.

Within the ROI, there's no support for Irexit, no politician has even suggested it.

In terms of RW, our Taoiseach, perceived as RW, is a homosexual man of indian descent, who increased social welfare.

listermint

demfad wrote: »

In Fairness, I have looked in depth at Russian interference in the US and European countries including the UK.
One of the bad actors involved in Brexit and Trump, Nigel Farage, has been very vocal in this country about Ireland leaving the EU.
Farage is a person of interest for the FBI in the Trump-Russia investigation. He also worked for Russia Today several times. He was to help run the Calexit campaign which received training in Kremlin funded trips to Russia, until the Calexit leader actually moved to Russia this year.
Farage works with Steve Bannon and his boss Robert Mercer, owner of Breitbart news and shadowy Big Data company Cambridge Analytica which worked on Brexit and US election.
For Russian trolls you can look at Irish SM sites. The journal.ie comment section is full of them.
On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
Here is a few prominent Irexit twitter handles:
AT MuintirNa AT AidiMac AT ExitEire

Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
They thought it couldnt happen in the US, they thought it couldnt happen in the UK. Signing up to all anti-hybrid war groups in Europe is vitally in our interest and should not affect our neutrality. We are allowed defend ourselves.

The russian mission has not stopped in this regard, they continue to sow wedges on comments sections across yahoo, telegraph, facebook and many more about how the EU is dictating talks and so on.

This effort is on going and ever present.

demfad

Red_Wake wrote: »

But all of this is abroad.

Within the ROI, there's no support for Irexit, no politician has even suggested it.

In terms of RW, our Taoiseach, perceived as RW, is a homosexual man of indian descent, who increased social welfare.

Farage's comments have largely been on Irish media i.e not abroad. The climate denial group exists, based in Dublin. We don't know if Cambridge Analytica have data on the Irish electorate yet.
As my post stated, this is preparation for a time when the Irish economy gets depressed again most likely after a no deal Brexit. The return on Eurosceptic social media saturation increases greatly in that case. Anti-gay, anti-female, anti-immigrant rhetortic will abound.
Brexit was only a wet dream of the fringe until recently.
Ireland is of major interest to this authoritarian axis because we can stop EU stabilising treaties via rejection in referenda.
Muellers investigation may rip this axis down. If not and there is a hard messy Brexit, we should cover ourselves against a sustained hybrid attack to undermine our position and relationship with the EU.

demfad wrote: »

On the climate denial side a group is already established here: https://www.desmog.uk/2017/05/05/new-climate-science-denial-group-launches-ireland first speaker, Lindzen, a man funded by Exxon.
.....
Should a hard messy Brexit happen with the ensuing economic sledge hammer here, these guys (Farage, Cambridge, Breitbart, Russia, Mercer etc) will roll in as they have done in many States.
......

mountaintop

Regarding earlier comment that no politician has mentioned Irexit. Hate to say it but a few politicians pandered to the populist vote and mentioned it. Full time TD Darragh Callery said he was uncertain people would vote to stay in Europe if there was a referendum here. He said that for no other reason than it sounded good. And that's how it starts. Politicians sniff the wind to see which way it's blowing then they'll say what you want to hear. Irexit is a crazy notion. We'd be straight back to the donkey and tipping our hat to the British.

Fratton Fred

Red_Wake wrote: »

But all of this is abroad.

Within the ROI, there's no support for Irexit, no politician has even suggested it.

In terms of RW, our Taoiseach, perceived as RW, is a homosexual man of indian descent, who increased social welfare.

People Before Profit campaigned for Brexit in the North. Here's Richard Boyd Barrett's opinion on the eu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hGAx9QVMDg

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

People Before Profit campaigned for Brexit in the North. Here's Richard Boyd Barrett's opinion on the eu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hGAx9QVMDg

Well he's to blame also. Has no idea what he's talking about. Especially damaging in the North which will likely suffer most.

mountaintop

Can't stand Richard Boyd Barrett with his plummy accent. I met him years ago and he was spouting on about multinationals. I asked him what he would do if he was in power with multinationals. He said he would establish workers' councils and they would dictate how the facility was run. I mean, he was perfectly serious. He's in La La Land, like the rest of them.

solodeogloria

mountaintop wrote: »

Can't stand Richard Boyd Barrett with his plummy accent. I met him years ago and he was spouting on about multinationals. I asked him what he would do if he was in power with multinationals. He said he would establish workers' councils and they would dictate how the facility was run. I mean, he was perfectly serious. He's in La La Land, like the rest of them.

Good evening.

Of course you can't. You basically support a federal European superstate judging by this post.

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

The only end of that position is that small countries like Ireland would be seen only as the periphery and not the core. If you think the French and the Germans would protect Ireland's interests in the long run if they had authority over matters like tax, think again. That's why national governments still have a place in 2017, and it's why national governments need more and not less control.

Edit:

View wrote: »

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

The Leave campaign never advocated that people already in Britain should leave. If the immigration policy of the UK would require me to get a visa, I would do so.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mountaintop

It was Europe which implemented charters for workers rights, etc, not national governments. Although I think we have a good government and system here, I trust the EU and have no fear of what you call a European superstate. We need to rid ourselves of the narrow idea of the nation state. We are all people, we need to integrate and lose our fear of each other. France and Germany are not my enemies, the are my fellow Europeans. This talk of core and periphery is emotive nonsense. Look at the legacy of 70 years of a peaceful Europe if you don't think that works.

Christy42

solodeogloria wrote: »

mountaintop wrote: »

Can't stand Richard Boyd Barrett with his plummy accent. I met him years ago and he was spouting on about multinationals. I asked him what he would do if he was in power with multinationals. He said he would establish workers' councils and they would dictate how the facility was run. I mean, he was perfectly serious. He's in La La Land, like the rest of them.

Good evening.

Of course you can't. You basically support a federal European superstate judging by this post.

mountaintop wrote: »

I'd be delighted if Europe decided Irish fiscal policy. They'd make a better job than our own politicians. And why not a European Army? Ireland has hidden behind America and the UK for too long. We claim neutrality but have others defend it.

The only end of that position is that small countries like Ireland would be seen only as the periphery and not the core. If you think the French and the Germans would protect Ireland's interests in the long run if they had authority over matters like tax, think again. That's why national governments still have a place in 2017, and it's why national governments need more and not less control.

Edit:

View wrote: »

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

The Leave campaign never advocated that people already in Britain should leave. If the immigration policy of the UK would require me to get a visa, I would do so.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

This is true as far as it goes. Voters in Germany will not have Ireland as their top priority (similarly for individual sections in a country though).

However the EU has had much better success in terms of standing up to corporations than individual countries. Mobile phone companies especially - I always love it when they spin eu regulations as a great idea they had for their customers. Most usefully of all is the roaming rules which I love. I don't see that happening if Ireland was by itself.

I would also be less than comfortable with fiscal policy being decided in Brussels. Certain points of it I could see being more useful if it was a single rule for the eu (tariffs are an example of this) though so case by case basis. The army I care less about as long as it is voluntary. I could see it doing some serious good work, similar to the UK security suggestion.

There is a balance and for me we have plenty more to cooperate in Ireland with our European neighbours on.

View

solodeogloria wrote: »

View wrote: »

According to surveys on the reasons people voted the way they did in the UK referendum, the primary reason that Leave voters voted Leave was due to immigration.

If you actually respected the decision of those Leave voters then you, as a "bloody foreigner", would be acting upon it and packing your bags and "going back where you came from". Instead though you'll defy the Leave voters' wishes and spend your time hypocriticallly pontificating to all and sundry here about how everyone else - but not you - should respect the Leave voters' decision.

The Leave campaign never advocated that people already in Britain should leave. If the immigration policy of the UK would require me to get a visa, I would do so.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

solodeogloria

View wrote: »

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

Good evening!

There's no evidence to propose that most leave voters want me to leave. I don't know why you're suggesting that as a serious point on this thread. Most Leave voters I personally know want to control migration not to entirely end it.

Your suggestion that most Leave voters want me in particular to leave is just silly season.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

ancapailldorcha

View wrote: »

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

Leave voters, or 77% of them seem to want EU immigrants already in the UK to be able to stay as they came here fairly:

The Guardian wrote:

More than eight out of 10 people in the UK believe EU migrants already living in Britain should be allowed to remain after Brexit, including 77% of Leave voters.

The figures are revealed in new poll for the British Future thinktank which wants a “national conversation” on immigration as part of a comprehensive review of a system in which, it says, “the public has lost all confidence”.

I think the issue was with freedom of movement rather than immigrants themselves.

Capt'n Midnight

demfad wrote: »

And not only is she not returning control of the (3% law making controlled by EU) to parliament she is taking the other 97% that it already controls away.

Also taking powers back from the devolved parliaments, mass surveillance like the snoopers charter and leaving the European Courts too.

Had she increased her majority she wouldn't even have had to pander to some sections of her own party.

Capt'n Midnight

Jim2007 wrote: »

I think we are rapidly reaching the point that where people in the EU no longer care what happens to the UK.

More importantly no European politician is worried that the EU's handling of Brexit would stop them getting re-elected.

And UK car sales are down, and scrapage deals mean profits are down further. So the German car industry has even less reason to get involved. The emissions issue is costing a lot more than the WTO tariffs will.

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote: »

Anyway...the referendum was very close. Putin only needed to target a relatively small number of swing voters to sway the result.

Yes and no.

I don't think he swung it.
But yes it's technically possible, and getting cheaper and easier all the time. Here at least we'd have to send out those referendum booklets which could be challenged.


Mass media shows the same ad to everyone. But thinks like Facebook show targeted ads, which are very hard to police. You could have anti-immigration ads in areas with high unemployment and take back control ads for older demographics. Better still who knows which, if any of the ads are honest never mind ethical.

Previously it would have a small fraction of a campaign budget to buy that sort of data from companies. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/19/rnc_contractor_stored_voter_data_in_cloud

Recent data leaks means lots of personal data is in the wild at low low prices. Makes tricks like voter re-registration, targeted mailshots or whatever you're yourself very easy. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/09/07/143m_american_equifax_customers_exposed/

murphaph

This is exactly what happened. They targeted different messages to different audiences. I'm pretty sure given the close nature of the outcome that the Russians could have plausibly affected the result.

View

solodeogloria wrote: »

View wrote: »

I referred to Leave VOTERS, not the Leave campaign. It was Leave voters who voted and who decided they have had a bellyful of EU immigrants be they new ones or old ones.

Either you respect the Leave voters' opinion and pack your bags or stop your hypocrisy about respecting their vote when you clearly are no more willing to do so than those your criticise on here.

Good evening!

There's no evidence to propose that most leave voters want me to leave. I don't know why you're suggesting that as a serious point on this thread. Most Leave voters I personally know want to control migration not to entirely end it.

Your suggestion that most Leave voters want me in particular to leave is just silly season.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Leave voters perceive that there are too many immigrants from the EU in the UK and voted based on that perception. You are one of those too many EU immigrants.

Either stop pontificating to others about respecting Leave voters when you are just going to ignore them or act by leaving thus helping to reduce those "too many" EU immigrants.

Rjd2

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

There's no evidence to propose that most leave voters want me to leave. I don't know why you're suggesting that as a serious point on this thread. Most Leave voters I personally know want to control migration not to entirely end it.

Your suggestion that most Leave voters want me in particular to leave is just silly season.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Spot on. The vast majority of the elderly vote which ensured leave won was to take back control mantra. I don't agree with that viewpoint but its lazy to say it was just immigration and it gives to much credit to a guy like Farage who was kept away from the main campaign due to how toxic he was viewed.

A lot of other factors at play, people wanting to stick it to the likes of Cameron and the government and a strong anti EU POV which was not entirely exclusive to the right.

Dennis Skinner one of the most left wing MPS was a vocal leave supporter, heck Corbyn took a holiday in the run up to the vote and has shown little interest in challenging or over turning Brexit.

Zubeneschamali

solodeogloria wrote: »

There's no evidence to propose that most leave voters want me to leave.

There's no evidence to propose most Leave voters want the UK to leave the customs union, either, but you are strangely gung-ho for that.

solodeogloria

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

There's no evidence to propose most Leave voters want the UK to leave the customs union, either, but you are strangely gung-ho for that.

Good morning!

You mean no evidence apart from the entire premise that the referendum was won on. It was explicitly about taking back control.

Staying in the EU by the back door (this is soft Brexit) isn't leaving. It isn't taking back control. In order to do that you need to leave the single market and the customs union.

Taking control of borders, money (contributions to the EU), and trade policy depends on it.

We don't get to rewrite history when it is convenient. Both sides were clear that leaving the EU means leaving the single market.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Peregrinus

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

You mean no evidence apart from the entire premise that the referendum was won on. It was explicitly about taking back control.

Staying in the EU by the back door (this is soft Brexit) isn't leaving. It isn't taking back control. In order to do that you need to leave the single market and the customs union.

Taking control of borders, money (contributions to the EU), and trade policy depends on it.

That's your interpretation. But there is no more evidence for your interpretation than there is for the interpretation that the vote was a vote for migrants to leave.

solodeogloria wrote: »

We don't get to rewrite history when it is convenient. Both sides were clear that leaving the EU means leaving the single market.

They certainly were not. Even after the vote was taken and the results known, Boris Johnston, to name but one, was still assuring people that the UK could leave the EU but retain the benefits of the single market.

As you say, we don't get to rewrite history when it is convenient. The actual historical facts are that this referendum was put to the people by a government which did not wish to leave the EU, and had no plan to leave the EU, and had developed no proposal about how that would be done, if it were ever done. Different proponents of leaving put forward different vision of how it might be done. The vote was a vote to leave but - actual, definite, verifiable, historic fact here - a vote for nothing else. There was nothing else on the ballot paper.
No coherent or developed proposal for leaving was ever put before the people.

Those who claim that the vote was a vote for a particular Brexit strategy out of the range of possible strategies - which by an amazing coincidence is always the Brexit strategy which they themselves favour - are the ones who are rewriting history. "It was a vote to leave the customs union" is every bit as much of a rewrite as "it was a vote to get rid of migrants".

solodeogloria

Peregrinus wrote: »

That's your interpretation. But there is no more evidence for your interpretation than there is for the interpretation that the vote was a vote for migrants to leave.


They certainly were not. Even after the vote was taken and the results known, Boris Johnston, to name but one, was still assuring people that the UK could leave the EU but retain the benefits of the single market.

As you say, we don't get to rewrite history when it is convenient. The actual historical facts are that this referendum was put to the people by a government which did not wish to leave the EU, and had no plan to leave the EU, and had developed no proposal about how that would be done, if it were ever done. Different proponents of leaving put forward different vision of how it might be done. The vote was a vote to leave but - actual, definite, verifiable, historic fact here - a vote for nothing else. There was nothing else on the ballot paper.
No coherent or developed proposal for leaving was ever put before the people.

Those who claim that the vote was a vote for a particular Brexit strategy out of the range of possible strategies - which by an amazing coincidence is always the Brexit strategy which they themselves favour - are the ones who are rewriting history. "It was a vote to leave the customs union" is every bit as much of a rewrite as "it was a vote to get rid of migrants".

Good morning!

Again if Boris Johnson was arguing that the UK could have access to the single market after Brexit, this isn't the same as arguing for single market membership.

On the remain side they clearly argued that leaving the EU would mean leaving the single market.

Taking back control was the overriding message of the leave side of the campaign. The leave campaign were also clear that all EU migrants in the UK could stay after Brexit.

Again - it is rewriting history to claim otherwise.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

This taking back control trope is so very frustrating.

Will the UK not be pursuing any deals whatsoever (trade/passports/aero/standards recognition) with any other countries once it has left the EU? Will it become a rogue nation on the UN level? If maintaining whole and exclusive 'control' was the goal, than ceding or making moves to share any governance would surely go against such a target.

I am one who listened and had respect and empathy for the sovereignty arguments made (poorly) during the referendum campaign, but the ridiculous lengths to which this trope is now being portrayed is bizarre.

Of coure the answer to both the above questions is no, however the 'control' trope is used to 'fend off' similar arguments.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Julia Wailing Pedal:
I and others have been clear on this issue on this thread. Of course the UK will cooperate with other countries. The obvious issue with the EU from a UK perspective is the amount of control that is required to be handed over. And Juncker wants even more control. No other bloc requires the amount of control that the EU requires and what it will require into the future.

The leave side were right about this. I thought a vote to stay in the EU was a vote for the status quo. It isn't. The EU are looking for more power after Brexit than before.

After the State of the Union address and seeing how little Juncker has actually learned. I'm delighted that the UK will be out in 2019. The other countries are entitled to become federal states of the EU.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I am not sure how anyone can with any degree certainty suggest there was 'clarity' regarding the single market.

Surely, surely, the counter factual - that there are countries within the single market but not within the EU - means that it was at the very least ambiguous.

Oh, and of course there were also plenty of useful quotes from the Leave side for remaining within the single market.

http://youtu.be/0xGt3QmRSZY

The ahistoricism is not on the part of those that suggest the referendum-determined exit route is unknown I don't think.

mountaintop

All this pro leave jargon is nuts. It was the same in the 50s and 60s with the Irish immigrants. It'll always be something for the little minded bigots. Have you're Brexit, and good riddence, but it won't solve one thing!