Brexit discussion thread II

Samaris

Not much point calling it an "advisory referendum", really. Call it what it is so people know that their vote means something.

And very few people voted for the same Brexit. The ones that knew least shout the most so hard Brexit it is (for instance, the political promises of cake and eating it).

I would say they'd regret it once Britain comes up against the WTO, but most likely they'll just blame the EU, as Solo already is.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

The people of NI voted to remain in the EU though

This is not correct. The people of NI voted to leave the EU. The referendum was a UK-wide, single democratic decision, and NI's choice was to be bound by the decision of the majority. So while many in the north voted to leave, and many voted to remain - overall, they voted to leave.

The Rape of Lucretia

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

52 percent of the entire country put British nationalism ahead of their own prosperity.

And who comes out best from that : those whole thought with their wallets, or those who put pride in their country first even at a cost to their wallets ?

flutered

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Exactly. Pulling the plug on a chaotic hard Brexit without a transition would be the equivalent of letting Ireland and Greece crash with no help - it would damage the whole EU.

So instead, they will first, give the process more time via the "implementation period" dodge, and second, they will offer help on their own terms to avoid the chaos.

It may be that the UK will choose a hard brexit, but if it helps the EU to give time for customs, immigration and so on to be ready, they will do it. Why shoot themselves in the foot?

one would think at this stage the eu would have plans made or well on the way to being made and ready to implement, it is doubtfull if they are waiting to hear from the uk that brexit is a certainty

First Up

A Little Pony wrote:

I am not European, I have no love for the EU flag, it means absolutely nothing to me, has always meant nothing. The EU couldn't have done anything to make the majority in the UK want to be part of the EU or love what it stands for. I simply disagree with the whole concept of the EU.

Are you against all international cooperation for mutual benefit or only when it happens in Europe?

murphaph

I'd say the EU could conceivably accept a long term stasis for the UK. The UK would not be a member state so would have no influence on the future direction of the union but they'd have to accept all the current and future rules and of course ECJ supremacy. For this the UK would continue to pay their current contribution but without any rebate obviously.

This could continue indefinitely but the UK would continue to lose investment to the EU as there would be no long term confidence in the arrangement on the part of business.

It would be a slow and more orderly winding up of the UK than a chaotic exit.

A possible outcome in a decade or so would be the UK electorate complaining that they have no say in the rules they follow and a push to join the EU would ensue. Obviously the Euro would have to be adopted along with Schengen.

The Rape of Lucretia

murphaph wrote: »

Obviously the Euro would have to be adopted along with Schengen.

Obviously ?

murphaph

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Obviously ?

If the UK ever seeks to rejoin the EU? Of course.

FrancieBrady

First Up wrote: »

Are you against all international cooperation for mutual benefit or only when it happens in Europe?

I think the entire 'British' brand or identity is in crisis tbh.
What about being in the EU dilutes your identity?

This has never been explained here in an understandable way.

The Rape of Lucretia

murphaph wrote: »

If the UK ever seeks to rejoin the EU? Of course.

Of course ?

murphaph

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Of course ?

Those are the rules for countries joining the EU these days. Schengen and Euro must be accepted.

Samaris

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

And who comes out best from that : those whole thought with their wallets, or those who put pride in their country first even at a cost to their wallets ?

Pride in country isn't worth much if it leads to damaging said country to salve said pride.

carrickbally

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think you can look at two examples of existential situations and look at how the EU dealt with them.

1. Ireland and the crash. EU offered help on their own terms which protected French and German banks. The terms were accepted by the Irish Gov and lead to austerity and the bank bailout. People were not bailed out.

2. Greece and their crash. The EU offered help on their terms which were rejected and no other help was offered. Greece held out, but their was no other offer so Greece had to accept austerity at a level that destroyed their economy. People were not bailed out.

So the UK want a settlement on their terms. Good luck with that.

Both Ireland and Greece were bankrupt by the decisions of a small number of their own most powerful citizens in charge of their own most powerful institutions.

Most countries in the EU and the Eurozone who were operating under the same conditions were not bankrupted by the decisions of a small number of their own most powerful citizens.

Blaming everyone else and at the same time asking them to bail us out is rank hypocrisy.

The Brits through Brexit have torn up the treaty they signed with nearly thirty other countries in the EU and the Good Friday Agreement they signed with this former colony.

They have also through Brexit declared economic war on the rest of Europe and especially on this former colony.

That was their decision and no more than when we went broke all of the EU, this country and the UK will have to put up with the consequences.

steddyeddy

The best thing that can happen to Britain is this:


Britain leaves the EU and suffers a major blow to its economy. Realises that the EU was beneficial towards the British economy and the simple equation UK puts money in and gets X amount back in no way describes the benefits of being in the single market. The UK ask to rejoin the EU, albeit with no concessions, accept the loss of the Sterling (it's already being lost) and see their economy thrive.

That's cause and effect in action and maybe that's what was missing for years. People need to see that this is a bad idea and joining was beneficial People were blatantly lied to by people only out for themselves and their career. Bumbling idiots like Boris who will never feel the effects of Brexit. It will be the people he lied to that will.

The sad thing is people shouldn't need a lesson in the benefits of the EU. Britain's economy was in massive trouble before it joined the single market. Then it completely turned around. I know that was due to domestic issues too, but it certainly had a huge effect.

FrancieBrady

Samaris wrote: »

Pride in country isn't worth much if it leads to damaging said country to salve said pride.

Nobody has ever really told the UK public that its prosperity was based on the exploitation and plundering of its colonies resources. When they began to lose that, it's prosperity began to decline.
This disconnect with who they actually are and where the prosperity came from is fuelling the last stage of the decline of Britain - namely Brexit and the futile quest to get back something they never had. It was always 'had' at somebody else's expense.
Brexit is looking like it will be the final leveller - three independent small countries on one island.

Capt'n Midnight

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has ever really told the UK public that its prosperity was based on the exploitation and plundering of its colonies resources. When they began to lose that, it's prosperity began to decline.
This disconnect with who they actually are and where the prosperity came from is fuelling the last stage of the decline of Britain - namely Brexit and the futile quest to get back something they never had. It was always 'had' at somebody else's expense.
Brexit is looking like it will be the final leveller - three independent small countries on one island.

UK hourly productivity hasn't risen. Output has only gone up because people are working longer hours.

It's not something that bodes well for increased prosperity.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

It is something my fellow Brexiteers argue against or feel almost insulted if this is mentioned.

The problem with British nationalism in the northeast of Ireland is that it's a minority. The people in the north can vote themselves out of the UK into a unified Ireland back inside the EU where the majority wanted to remain.

I'm sure the English would be delighted to see the back of Ireland and I'd say the EU would be very supportive of a UI too.

GalwayMark

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody has ever really told the UK public that its prosperity was based on the exploitation and plundering of its colonies resources. When they began to lose that, it's prosperity began to decline.
This disconnect with who they actually are and where the prosperity came from is fuelling the last stage of the decline of Britain - namely Brexit and the futile quest to get back something they never had. It was always 'had' at somebody else's expense.
Brexit is looking like it will be the final leveller - three independent small countries on one island.

I honestly can't see Wales going it alone nor Cornwall but a 'Britain' will exist albeit not Great Britain which includes Scotland,England and Wales. People need to realise Great Britain means the three countries whereas Britain equals just England and Wales. I'd guess a sort of federal settlement between Cardiff and London but no It'll be just Three Countries Two Islands as opposed to Two Islands Two and a Bit Countries.

FrancieBrady

GalwayMark wrote: »

I honestly can't see Wales going it alone nor Cornwall but a 'Britain' will exist albeit not Great Britain which includes Scotland,England and Wales. People need to realise Great Britain means the three countries whereas Britain equals just England and Wales. I'd guess a sort of federal settlement between Cardiff and London but no It'll be just Three Countries Two Islands as opposed to Two Islands Two and a Bit Countries.

I know what it means, that is why I said 'three independent countries on one island'.

CrabRevolution

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is not correct. The people of NI voted to leave the EU. The referendum was a UK-wide, single democratic decision, and NI's choice was to be bound by the decision of the majority. So while many in the north voted to leave, and many voted to remain - overall, they voted to leave.

That's some pretty torturous logic.

It's like saying that because Fine Gael won the last election, everyone voted for Fine Gael and that even if I voted Labour, the fact Fine Gael got the most votes countrywide means I voted for them.

Samaris

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I know what it means, that is why I said 'three independent countries on one island'.

And then Yorkshire and Wessex start acting up again..

Fratton Fred

GalwayMark wrote: »

I honestly can't see Wales going it alone nor Cornwall but a 'Britain' will exist albeit not Great Britain which includes Scotland,England and Wales. People need to realise Great Britain means the three countries whereas Britain equals just England and Wales. I'd guess a sort of federal settlement between Cardiff and London but no It'll be just Three Countries Two Islands as opposed to Two Islands Two and a Bit Countries.

You’re confusing Great Britain and the United Kingdom.

And why would Cornwall “go it alone”? Are they not English down there then?

GalwayMark

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You’re confusing Great Britain and the United Kingdom.

And why would Cornwall “go it alone”? Are they not English down there then?

It's pretty much subsumed into England at this stage.

Samaris

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You’re confusing Great Britain and the United Kingdom.

And why would Cornwall “go it alone”? Are they not English down there then?

Cornish people around the world perk up at this distant insult

Cornwall would not be able to support itself alone though. At least not unless England collapsed into tribal kingdoms again. Which is a bit beyond even the most negative view of Brexit! (Mind you, places don't have to be able to support themselves or go it alone merely to want or demand independence).

Fratton Fred

GalwayMark wrote: »

It's pretty much subsumed into England at this stage.

As are Mercia and Wessex.

Fratton Fred

Samaris wrote: »

Cornish people around the world perk up at this distant insult .

In the same way people from Cork get worked up when Dublin is called the capital

Bigus

Richard Branson reckons if Brexit goes ahead , they'll be back knocking on the EU door within 5 years, especially with some of the elderly brexiteers brown bread.

https://radio.rte.ie/radio1highlights/richard-branson-ryan-tubridy-show/

LeinsterDub

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

A deal will be done but it'll be done at the last minute .

A last minute deal while better than nothing is going to lead to massive damage. Airlines, banks and other businesses can't afford to wait.

Samaris

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In the same way people from Cork get worked up when Dublin is called the capital

Not...quite. Cork is argumentative but has no separate ethnic identity. Cornwall is Celtic in origin, and it has played a part in the different identity of Cornish people to their English neighbors.

It is actually a completely different situation, tbh. Catalonia would be a better comparison, although Catalonia has a long history of autonomy to greater or lesser extent, which Cornwall does not.

FrancieBrady

To close the off topic sidebar about regions like Cornwall:
Britain is England and Wales
Great Britain is the above with Scotland
And UK of GB and northern Ireland is what it says on the tin.

When talking about brexit breaking up the above the 'regions' are irrelevant.

Enzokk

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Technically correct. But (at least) half the Conservative party was campaigning for it as well. None of them have a plan.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is not correct. The people of NI voted to leave the EU. The referendum was a UK-wide, single democratic decision, and NI's choice was to be bound by the decision of the majority. So while many in the north voted to leave, and many voted to remain - overall, they voted to leave.

I am not for one moment saying the Brexit vote means NI should leave the UK, but if as some has said the vote sacred and should be followed by the politicians, where does this leave those governments that make their own decisions and have their own parliaments? But I guess its the conundrum of the DUP, they only want to be British when it suits them.

What they should be doing is fighting for the best deal for the people of NI, who wants a close relationship with the EU. They are doing the opposite of this though.

Fratton Fred

Samaris wrote: »

Not...quite. Cork is argumentative but has no separate ethnic identity. Cornwall is Celtic in origin, and it has played a part in the different identity of Cornish people to their English neighbors.

The Cornish were Britons, like everyone else south of Gretna Green. They were just less affected by Anglo Saxon and latterly Norman culture.

Samaris

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Cornish were Britons, like everyone else south of Gretna Green. They were just less affected by Anglo Saxon and latterly Norman culture.

..Yes? I don't get your point that it's the same thing as Cork and Dublin when it plainly is not. The Britons were Celtic. England became predominantly Anglo-Saxon of various flavours and then Norman as you point out, but Cornwall, like Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the Isle of Man, etc, kept a strongly Celtic strain that impacted language and culture.

It is really not the same thing as two cities in Ireland. Or even two counties within the Republic. Closest is probably something like the Connemara Gaeltacht, but even that's less so, it's really only the language. Cornwall has a distinct regional identity with distinct heritage (albeit closely intertwined with neighbouring regions), distinct language (those that can speak it) and many identify more strongly with this culture than the wider national one.

It's never likely to become independent. But there's no point pretending that there is no difference at all between Cornwall and, say, Hertfordshire, in the heart of England.

Sam Russell

Samaris wrote: »

..Yes? I don't get your point that it's the same thing as Cork and Dublin when it plainly is not. The Britons were Celtic. England became predominantly Anglo-Saxon of various flavours, but Cornwall, like Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the Isle of Man, etc, kept a strongly Celtic strain that impacted language and culture.

It is really not the same thing as two cities in Ireland. Or even two counties within the Republic.

Not only that, but the NE of England (Yorkshire, Northumberland) were peopled by Viking or Danes.

Samaris

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not only that, but the NE of England (Yorkshire, Northumberland) were peopled by Viking or Danes.

Ah, is that why Yorkshire has its own set of separatists? Wessex I just about understood, Yorkshire was a weird one.

The Rape of Lucretia

https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK


Not sure if this was linked here before or not. Much of it damned funny. Brexit is the tragedy that keeps on dishing up the comedy.

blanch152

Enzokk wrote: »

I am not for one moment saying the Brexit vote means NI should leave the UK, but if as some has said the vote sacred and should be followed by the politicians, where does this leave those governments that make their own decisions and have their own parliaments? But I guess its the conundrum of the DUP, they only want to be British when it suits them.

What they should be doing is fighting for the best deal for the people of NI, who wants a close relationship with the EU. They are doing the opposite of this though.

A lot of people are losing the run of themselves and some of the posts have been extraordinary, actually funny if they weren't so serious.

What people are forgetting is that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, that is all.

- It didn't vote to leave the UK
- It didn't vote for an Irish Sea border
- It didn't vote for a hard border with the South

And it certainly didn't vote to unify this island.

The Rape of Lucretia

blanch152 wrote: »

A lot of people are losing the run of themselves and some of the posts have been extraordinary, actually funny if they weren't so serious.

What people are forgetting is that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, that is all.

- It didn't vote to leave the UK
- It didn't vote for an Irish Sea border
- It didn't vote for a hard border with the South

And it certainly didn't vote to unify this island.

'Northern Ireland' didnt vote for anything.
More UK citizens, resident in NI, voted to remain than to voted to leave. That is all one can say.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

A lot of people are losing the run of themselves and some of the posts have been extraordinary, actually funny if they weren't so serious.

What people are forgetting is that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, that is all.

- It didn't vote to leave the UK
- It didn't vote for an Irish Sea border
- It didn't vote for a hard border with the South

And it certainly didn't vote to unify this island.

Nobody I can see said they did.
But actions have consequences. Which might be funny if they were not so serious.

Fratton Fred

Samaris wrote: »

..Yes? I don't get your point that it's the same thing as Cork and Dublin when it plainly is not. The Britons were Celtic. England became predominantly Anglo-Saxon of various flavours and then Norman as you point out, but Cornwall, like Scotland, Wales, Ireland, the Isle of Man, etc, kept a strongly Celtic strain that impacted language and culture.

It is really not the same thing as two cities in Ireland. Or even two counties within the Republic. Closest is probably something like the Connemara Gaeltacht, but even that's less so, it's really only the language. Cornwall has a distinct regional identity with distinct heritage (albeit closely intertwined with neighbouring regions), distinct language (those that can speak it) and many identify more strongly with this culture than the wider national one.

It's never likely to become independent. But there's no point pretending that there is no difference at all between Cornwall and, say, Hertfordshire, in the heart of England.

I think the main point to note, is that the Cornish being celts and there being somehow not English is something that exists mainly in the heads of Irish nationalists and their belief in the true Celtic gene and the oppression by the Saxon foe.

That’s the only reason it got raised on this thread, let’s be honest.

Anyway, good luck telling Jack Nowell he isn’t English.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

A lot of people are losing the run of themselves and some of the posts have been extraordinary, actually funny if they weren't so serious.

What people are forgetting is that Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU, that is all.

- It didn't vote to leave the UK
- It didn't vote for an Irish Sea border
- It didn't vote for a hard border with the South

And it certainly didn't vote to unify this island.

Well that's lovely, but they voted to remain yet are leaving. Their situation, being in the UK and leaving the EU means they have no choice. Sea border or crippled economically.

steddyeddy

This has to be painful for the UK if the UK is ever going to rejoin the EU and prosper again. It's that simple.

It's beginning to show though. Bombardier represents 10% of the North's GDP and that's just the start. It's a taste of how the UK will be treated in all future deals.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's beginning to show though. Bombardier represents 10% of the North's GDP and that's just the start. It's a taste of how the UK will be treated in all future deals.

How is it? Bombardier is a Canadian company.

GalwayMark

They can wallow in the grief and self-pity because only then will the realization they're no longer exceptional is going to sink in pretty hard. It will be painful with lots of bumps but when reality dawns on them expect a lot of apologies or ignorance depending on the outcome.

steddyeddy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How is it? Bombardier is a Canadian company.

Because the UK is significantly weaker now out of the single market. They can fight these tarriffs, but have to do so without annoying potential trading partners. It was on Question Time in Belfast.

It's a needed blow because it's the only thing that will break the delusion of Brexit.

ezra_pound

GalwayMark wrote: »

I honestly can't see Wales going it alone nor Cornwall but a 'Britain' will exist albeit not Great Britain which includes Scotland,England and Wales. People need to realise Great Britain means the three countries whereas Britain equals just England and Wales. I'd guess a sort of federal settlement between Cardiff and London but no It'll be just Three Countries Two Islands as opposed to Two Islands Two and a Bit Countries.

No. Britain is an island which is often referred to as great Britain to distinguish it from Brittany. It's a French linguistic matter. Bretagne= Brittany grande Bretagne = Britain.

Peregrinus

murphaph wrote: »

. . . A possible outcome in a decade or so would be the UK electorate complaining that they have no say in the rules they follow and a push to join the EU would ensue. Obviously the Euro would have to be adopted along with Schengen.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Obviously ?

murphaph wrote: »

If the UK ever seeks to rejoin the EU? Of course.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Of course ?

Pretty much, yes.

We're speculating about a future application by the UK to be readmitted to the EU, and a great deal would have to happen before that would become politically realistic but, still, we can speculate. If the UK were to apply to rejoin in ten or so years, how would the EU react? One certain reaction is "we're not going to put ourselves through all that again. All the griping and whinging and throwing toys out of the pram. It has to be different this time."

So I think the UK's readmission would be depdendent on a changed political consensus within the UK - one in which the UK political establishment is actually enthusiastic about the European project, and in which instead of trying to accommodate anti-European sentiment (e.g. by holding idiotic refererenda) they marginalise it (e.g. by slinging europhopes out of the major parties, and leaving them to the likes of Farage). As others have pointed out out, acceptance of the euro and of the Schengen agreement are already standard conditions of entry. So if the UK's application for re-entry were to be accompanied by demands for immediate concessions and dispensations from the rules which apply to everyone else, well, that would send send signals about the UK's attitude to the project which would make rejection of the application a racing certainty.

listermint

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How is it? Bombardier is a Canadian company.

Enough with offloading the blame on this one.

The company is significant to the UK if the UK wielded any strength with the US these days if would not have happened and this would have been handled behind closed doors.

To keep saying is a US Canada problem is offloading the fact the UK has by its own hands diminished its own trading stature.

These are realities

Zubeneschamali

Samaris wrote: »

Which is a bit beyond even the most negative view of Brexit!

You must have missed that 2015 Mad Max movie.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Because the UK is significantly weaker now out of the single market. They can fight these tarriffs, but have to do so without annoying potential trading partners. It was on Question Time in Belfast.

It's a needed blow because it's the only thing that will break the delusion of Brexit.

The realisation and fear was palpable on QT last night. As was who is going to ship the blame for landing northern Ireland in it.
Wait until it starts hitting farming.