Help on a diet and workout

ShaShaBear

bladespin wrote: »

They're not detremental on a traditional diet either though, just account for the calories, it's very possible to have a choccy bar every day and loose weight.

I've followed Slimming World, had a chocolate bar and two packets of crisps daily and still managed to lose 3+ pounds most weeks (as a woman, there's a week in there that would be a bit wonky). Depending on your personality, such a rigid diet with no room for "whoopsies" or treats can easily lead to a weight gain explosion. I know a few people who are massively struggling with their weight (which is even higher now than when they started keto) because they couldn't handle it. It's definitely not for everyone, and it definitely doesn't cure cancer :pac:

Zillah

bananabread12 wrote: »

As opposed to eating bags of chips, bars of chocolate and crisps on any traditional weight loss diet?! Eating that stuff is not beneficial on any weight loss diet under the sun, what is so special about keto?

I've always been a healthy weight and I eat all of those things. It's about balance and moderation.

There is a problem focusing on "weight loss" rather than healthy living.

fussyonion

Zillah wrote: »

I've always been a healthy weight and I eat all of those things. It's about balance and moderation.

There is a problem focusing on "weight loss" rather than healthy living.

Couldn't agree more.
We should all strive to live healthily then we won't have weight issues.
Focussing purely on weightloss can indicate that you're just doing something temporarily. People should try and be healthy for life.

bananabread12

There are far too many people in here who have not even looked at the OP...he said he's training for MMA, not a bloody catwalk...

All some people here see is "weight loss" and they automatically think "elephant desperately trying to look thinner". This is not the goal of the OP.....

All I'm hearing is calories in, calories out etc....how in the name of God do you think eating Weebabix, mickey mouse salads, fruit and your ****ing bowls of granola going to preserve lean muscular mass? Perhaps I'm coming at things from a different perspective.....I doubt OP is going for the anorexic look because this "healthy living" stuff (whatever the hell that entails) won't preserve muscle mass and keep you looking built.

Alf Veedersane

bananabread12 wrote: »

There are far too many people in here who have not even looked at the OP...he said he's training for MMA, not a bloody catwalk...

All some people here see is "weight loss" and they automatically think "elephant desperately trying to look thinner". This is not the goal of the OP.....

All I'm hearing is calories in, calories out etc....how in the name of God do you think eating Weebabix, mickey mouse salads, fruit and your ****ing bowls of granola going to preserve lean muscular mass? Perhaps I'm coming at things from a different perspective.....I doubt OP is going for the anorexic look because this "healthy living" stuff (whatever the hell that entails) won't pack on muscle mass.

So no one has ever lost weight and preserved muscle mass without a keto diet?

bananabread12

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

So no one has ever lost weight and preserved muscle mass without a keto diet?

You've got a very vivid imagination. You've the incredible ability to see things that aren't actually there. I'm undecided as to whether that is a benefit or a cross to bear in life.

njs030

bananabread12 wrote: »

You've got a very vivid imagination. You've the incredible ability to see things that aren't actually there. I'm undecided as to whether that is a benefit or a cross to bear in life.

He has a vivid imagination?

Could you show actual scientific proof of these claims please.

bananabread12 wrote: »

Carbohydrates are literally toxic to the human body. Cancer patients, people with heart disease, epilepsy sufferers are all put on a ketogenic diet because the carbohydrates are literally killing them - the white blood cells need the carbohydrates to multiply.

Being in ketosis has anti-aging properties, it will protect you against IBS, cardiovascular disease, cancer, PCOS;

I'd like to see proof that carbohydrates are LITERALLY killing people. LITERALLY.

Also, white blood cells are vitally important as they fight infection in the body. There is no particular food supply for them thankfully as it would be very bad to cut off their food supply because then there would be nothing to protect one's immune system.
You may be familiar with white blood cells being killed it happens during chemotherapy which is why cancer patients can become so unwell so fast during chemo.

bananabread12

notjustsweet wrote: »

He has a vivid imagination?

We are all still waiting for actual scientific proof of these claims please.


I'd like to see proof that carbohydrates are LITERALLY killing people. LITERALLY.

LITERALLY.

This is pretty common knowledge. I'd of thought you had heard of it.

Alf Veedersane

bananabread12 wrote: »

You've got a very vivid imagination. You've the incredible ability to see things that aren't actually there. I'm undecided as to whether that is a benefit or a cross to bear in life.

So you can eat "Weebabix, mickey mouse salads, fruit and your ****ing bowls of granola" and preserve lean muscular mass?

Ok, we're in agreement then.

bananabread12

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

So you can eat "Weebabix, mickey mouse salads, fruit and your ****ing bowls of granola" and preserve lean muscular mass?

Ok, we're in agreement then.

By itself? Literally no.

A traditional diet will not aid in muscle preservation to the extent that a keto one would. That may be fine for females who just want to be thin, but for men who want to become built....your Weetabix can go in the bin.

njs030

bananabread12 wrote: »

LITERALLY.

This is pretty common knowledge. I'd of thought you had heard of it.

Yes I've heard of diabetes, diabetics can still eat carbs they just have to be careful.
I'm prediabetic myself actually.

Diabetes is a lack of insulin, what does that have to do with cancer, PCOS and the rest?


I'll ask again.
You claim carbs are literally killing people.
Please show scientific proof.

bladespin

Ah seriously, carbs causing diabeties is total and utter scutter, they're calorie dense and when abused can make you fat (like fat and even protein) but they do not kill you.

Alf Veedersane

bananabread12 wrote: »

By itself? Literally no.

A traditional diet will not aid in muscle preservation to the extent that a keto one would. That may be fine for females who just want to be thin, but for men who want to become built....your Weetabix can go in the bin.

Your diet can consist of any of the above, lose weight and mitigate muscle loss.

It doesn't have to be based solely on it but they can certainly be part of it.

I've nothing against a ketogenic diet. It works for people. This notion that it would be the only one that works for the OP is nonsense though.

That's all I'm saying to you. Not rubbishing keto.

bananabread12

notjustsweet wrote: »

Yes I've heard of diabetes, diabetics can still eat carbs they just have to be careful.
I'm prediabetic myself actually.

Diabetes is a lack of insulin, what does that have to do with cancer, PCOS and the rest?


I'll ask again.
You claim carbs are literally killing people.
Please show scientific proof.

Proof? Go and ask your doctor whether the carbs are going to kill you as a prediabetic or not and see what he says. Don't take some person on the internets word for it. Here's some proof for you regardless - and a little experiment we can all do that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

You say you're a prediabetic, right? How about you go and stuff your face with carbs every night of the week and then report back to us in a year or two from now and let us know whether or not you're injecting that **** into yourself every night of the week. How does that sound?

But let me give you a little bit of advice. As a prediabetic, you need to cut the carbs. This site will help you.

njs030

bananabread12 wrote: »

Proof? Go and ask your doctor whether the carbs are going to kill you as a prediabetic or not and see what he says. Don't take some person on the internets word for it. Here's some proof for you regardless - and a little experiment we can all do that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

You say you're a prediabetic, right? How about you go and stuff your face with carbs every night of the week and then report back to us in a year or two from now and let us know whether or not you're injecting that **** into yourself every night of the week. How does that sound?

But let me give you a little bit of advice. As a prediabetic, you need to cut the carbs. This site will help you.

I don't need your advice thanks and I'm certainly not going to take advice from someone who thinks white blood cells are bad!!
If I wanted nutrition advice I'd ask a dietician, not a doctor BTW.

I'm asking you as a person making wild claims to back it up with scientific proof.
You can't do that and yet again have avoided your cancer claims because you're talking rubbish.

bananabread12

notjustsweet wrote: »

I don't need your advice thanks and I'm certainly not going to take advice from someone who thinks white blood cells are bad!!
If I wanted nutrition advice I'd ask a dietician, not a doctor BTW.

I'm asking you as a person making wild claims to back it up with scientific proof.
You can't do that and yet again have avoided your cancer claims because you're talking rubbish.

I would very much like you to link me to the post where I specifically stated "all white blood cells are bad". I'm going to enjoy this....

In case context is completely lost on you, for a cancer patient (who we will assume has a greater capacity of white blood cells) the multiplication of said white blood cells delivered through the consumption of carbohydrates is very much not a beneficial process. Wouldn't you agree? Of course you would, because to deny that would be to deny science itself considering many cancer patients are indeed put on ketogenic diets.

njs030

bananabread12 wrote: »

I would very much like you to link me to the post where I specifically stated "all white blood cells are bad". I'm going to enjoy this....

In case context is completely lost on you, for a cancer patient (who we will assume has a greater capacity of white blood cells) the multiplication of said white blood cells delivered through the consumption of carbohydrates is very much not a beneficial process. Wouldn't you agree? Of course you would, because to deny that would be to deny science itself considering many cancer patients are indeed put on ketogenic diets.

You really struggle with backing up your claims with links to scientific proof don't you?

This thread is like watching a car crash in slow motion.

I wish I had popcorn.

bladespin

Deleted User wrote:

I wish I had popcorn.

Not sure keto allows it, have to google.

bananabread12

notjustsweet wrote: »

You really struggle with backing up your claims with links to scientific proof don't you?

You want scientific proof that high blood sugar levels will kill you without the production of the hormone insulin? Scientific proof that carbohydrates need to be curbed in diabetics or they will die?

You're one of those nutty conspiracy theorists, aren't you?

bananabread12

Deleted User wrote: »

This thread is like watching a car crash in slow motion.

I'm quite enjoying it.

This thread was dead as a dodo without me. It's now 5 pages and I think we can go a few more....

jive

bananabread12 wrote: »

I'm quite enjoying it.

This thread was dead as a dodo without me. It's now 5 pages and I think we can go a few more....

I hope not because you've no idea what you're talking about and it's boring watching you spread misinformation only for multiple people having to chime in and correct you

ceegee

bananabread12 wrote: »

Proof? Go and ask your doctor whether the carbs are going to kill you as a prediabetic or not and see what he says. Don't take some person on the internets word for it. Here's some proof for you regardless - and a little experiment we can all do that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

You say you're a prediabetic, right? How about you go and stuff your face with carbs every night of the week and then report back to us in a year or two from now and let us know whether or not you're injecting that **** into yourself every night of the week. How does that sound?

But let me give you a little bit of advice. As a prediabetic, you need to cut the carbs. This site will help you.

You should maybe learn the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes before spouting your health advice.

Likelihood of a patient who develops diabetes due to diet needing to inject with insulin within a year or two are slim to none.

While you're at it maybe research the different types of cancers and the effect each has on wbc count. Your claim that we can assume cancer patients will have higher wbc counts is false, it will depend on the type of cancer involved

bananabread12

jive wrote: »

I hope not because you've no idea what you're talking about and it's boring watching you spread misinformation only for multiple people having to chime in and correct you

Nobody has chimed in to "correct me". Many people have commented to state that keto is, in fact, a very viable diet to achieve one's goals. There is no misinformation on my part about it whatsoever in any way, shape or form. Or perhaps by "correct me" do you mean to say the nutters who require scientific evidence that without insulin diabetics will die? The fact that someone thinks they can preserve muscle mass with a salad, Weebabix or an apple to the extent that one can on keto is not only unscientific it's laughable......are these the people you believe need to correct me on?

ceegee

bananabread12 wrote: »

Nobody has chimed in to "correct me". Many people have commented to state that keto is, in fact, a very viable diet to achieve one's goals. There is no misinformation on my part about it whatsoever in any way, shape or form. Or perhaps by "correct me" do you mean to say the nutters who require scientific evidence that without insulin diabetics will die? The fact that someone thinks they can preserve muscle mass with a salad, Weebabix or an apple to the extent that one can on keto is not only unscientific it's laughable......are these the people you believe need to correct me on?

About 90% of diabetic patients have type 2 diabetes, most of these do not need to take insulin.

Alf Veedersane

bananabread12 wrote: »

The fact that someone thinks they can preserve muscle mass with a salad, Weebabix or an apple to the extent that one can on keto is not only unscientific it's laughable

So quantify the difference if I have weetabix for breakfast with the same calorific value as your ketogenic breakfast, and then I have a tuna salad with the same calorific value as your lunch and then some steak and veg for dinner with the same caloric value as your dinner. And all snacks are the same as the ketogenic snacks.

You're telling me the properly ketogenic diet gets some keto bonus points that make a massive difference.

Get your protein in, get your caloric intake right and don't be a f**kwit and you achieve the goals the IP wants.

Don't be a keto zealot.

I'd love some notmadefromwheatmadefromoatsinstead-abix right now

bananabread12

ceegee wrote: »

You should maybe learn the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes before spouting your health advice.

I'm well aware of the two.

ceegee wrote:

Likelihood of a patient who develops diabetes due to diet needing to inject with insulin within a year or two are slim to none.

Three, four or five then? What's your point? How does it negate my statement? Two questions: 1) Guy says he is already a prediabetic - we don't know where exactly he is, wouldn't you agree? Therefore, given his normal eating patterns how can you make a claim that he couldn't develop diabetes within a number of years? And question two, given that he is indeed a prediabetic.....would you consider, given the risk of him developing further, that to curb blood sugar levels, regardless of anything else, would be a beneficial thing to do?

ceegee wrote:

While you're at it maybe research the different types of cancers and the effect each has on wbc count. Your claim that we can assume cancer patients will have higher wbc counts is false, it will depend on the type of cancer involved

I have never at any point claimed to be a medical specialist - if you are, wouldn't it be acceptable to say in layman's terms that cancer patients, on the whole, would be assumed to have a higher wbc? And by extension, I'd also assume that these patients are have higher wbc are the very same patients to be more inclined to receive a recommendation of the ketogenic diet? Therefore, your comment in no way adds to the discussion nor does it subtract from the credibility of mine in that cancer patients, regardless of whatever specific cancerous ill they are unfortunate enough to have, are given the ketogenic diet in a bid to fight white blood cells and to stop them from multiplying if they do indeed have high wbc.

njs030

bananabread12 wrote: »

I'm well aware of the two.



Three, four or five then? What's your point? How does it negate my statement? Two questions: 1) Guy says he is already a prediabetic - we don't know where exactly he is,.

That's exactly it you don't know. Yet you feel it's acceptable to make assumptions about me and call me a nutter and a conspiracy theorist because I asked you to back up your claims about cancer with science.


You don't know the difference between type 1 and 2 diabetes when you're assuming they all inject insulin and when you think all diabetics can't eat carbs.

And I'm not a "guy"

ceegee

bananabread12 wrote: »

I'm well aware of the two.



Three, four or five then? What's your point? How does it negate my statement? Two questions: 1) Guy says he is already a prediabetic - we don't know where exactly he is, wouldn't you agree? Therefore, given his normal eating patterns how can you make a claim that he couldn't develop diabetes within a number of years? And question two, given that he is indeed a prediabetic.....would you consider, given the risk of him developing further, that to curb blood sugar levels, regardless of anything else, would be a beneficial thing to do?



I have never at any point claimed to be a medical specialist - if you are, wouldn't it be acceptable to say in layman's terms that cancer patients, on the whole, would be assumed to have a higher wbc? And by extension, I'd also assume that these patients are have higher wbc are the very same patients to be more inclined to receive a recommendation of the ketogenic diet? Therefore, your comment in no way adds to the discussion nor does it subtract from the credibility of mine in that cancer patients, regardless of whatever specific cancerous ill they are unfortunate enough to have, are given the ketogenic diet in a bid to fight white blood cells and to stop them from multiplying if they do indeed have high wbc.

Saying most things about cancer patients "on the whole" is wrong - cancer comes in so many guises that giving advice without knowing the type of cancer can be reckless.

And I never said that they wouldn't develop diabetes, I said that the likelihood of requiring insulin for a type 2 patient was extremely low. Typically people who develop diabetes due to diet/lifestyle do so due to insulin resistance, and are treated with oral medication rather than insulin.

Obviously reducing their blood sugar levels is necessary but this does not require some extreme diet. Eating a normal balanced diet and getting some exercise will be sufficient for the majority of people

ceegee

notjustsweet wrote: »

I'd like to point out there's reasons for developing diabetes or prediabetes other than diet though it is the most well known.
It's unfortunate really because people tend to assume it must be diet related!

People with autoimmune conditions are more likely to develop other conditions (including diabetes) no matter how good their diet and exercise are.

Agree completely, I was focusing solely on diet related diabetes due to the previous posters inaccurate claim that eating poorly would lead to having to inject insulin.

njs030

ceegee wrote: »

Agree completely, I was focusing solely on diet related diabetes due to the previous posters inaccurate claim that eating poorly would lead to having to inject insulin.

Sorry I tried to edit my post and deleted it by accident!!
My own prediabetes is caused by auto-immune disorders which is what I was going to add!

Those darn carbs feeding the white blood cells... Or is it a lack of white blood cells? I'm confused now

mathie

bananabread12 wrote: »

Nobody has chimed in to "correct me". Many people have commented to state that keto is, in fact, a very viable diet to achieve one's goals. There is no misinformation on my part about it whatsoever in any way, shape or form. Or perhaps by "correct me" do you mean to say the nutters who require scientific evidence that without insulin diabetics will die? The fact that someone thinks they can preserve muscle mass with a salad, Weebabix or an apple to the extent that one can on keto is not only unscientific it's laughable......are these the people you believe need to correct me on?

It is scientific and nobody is laughing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10731014

High-carbohydrate versus high-fat diets: effect on body composition in trained cyclists.

Abstract

PURPOSE:

Recent research suggesting the benefits of high-fat diets for endurance athletes have been viewed with caution because of the potential negative health consequences, including increased adiposity.

METHODS:

We have examined the effects of a high-fat (HF, 50% of total energy from fat and 37% from carbohydrate) versus a high-carbohydrate (HC, 15% of total energy from fat and 69% from carbohydrate) diet on body fat, lean body mass, and bone mineral density (BMD) in 32 endurance-trained cyclists over a period of 3 months. Body composition was assessed by dual x-ray absorptiometry at baseline and after 3 months.

RESULTS:

Total and percent body fat, lean tissue mass, and body weight were not significantly different within and between each diet group from baseline to week 12. Total body BMD increased significantly within HF (P = 0.02), but nonsignificantly in HC, over the 12-wk period.

CONCLUSIONS:

In conclusion, during periods of endurance training when energy requirements are high, increasing the percentage of fat in the diet to approximately 50% of total energy does not increase body weight or adiposity because athletes are able to maintain energy balance.

Zillah

There is no point trying to argue with a zealot. Despite his claims of scientific backing he's no idea what he's talking about. Just look at the first big post: suggesting that white blood cells are the enemy (they're actually the primary mechanism by which the immune system functions) and that carbs in your blood is toxic (it's called blood sugar and you will die instantly without it). This is what happens when someone with no base understanding of science or biology reads a ton of guff while only half understanding the topic.

It's ideology; ignorant, passionate, emotional ideology, and it is utterly immune to correction.

Mellor

Wow, this thread. Car crash stuff.

bananabread12 wrote: »

Nobody has chimed in to "correct me".

Chiming in here....


I train MMA and BJJ.
I'm currently cutting weight for competition (77 to 73kg in the last few weeks).
And I'm doing so with a keto diet. I'm in ketosis right now. Can go piss on a ketostix to prove it if necessary.

I've had good results with keto diets. But they require tinkering to maintain performance imo.
But all that said, you advice to the OP was terrible. Awful.

bananabread12 wrote: »

The Weetabix is the worst thing you could eat. Plus the milk you consume with them puts an immediate stop to your diet before the word "go". Bin it. People drink milk when they want to bulk up and gain weight, not lose it. The less said about the chocolate the better but I suspect you already know that.

The Weetabix is not remotely the worst. The chocolate is the worst by a long shot. If you think milk/weetabix/carbs instantly end weight loss you don't understand how keto works. There's nothing wrong with weetabix, I'll be having weetabix for breakfast tomorrow actually, with milk.


Keto isn't a magic diet. Energy balance still applies. Many people of keto diets are are also bulking at the same time. Keto is not about weight loss.

Eat one meal a day. This meal could be: a couple of boiled eggs mashed up in a cup with some butter, olive oil and a piece or two of broccoli. Have a few slices of streaky rashers on the side with a slice of cheese. Put coconut oil into your coffee/tea and nibble on almond nuts while you're drinking it.

This is terrible advice.

The above is maybe 800 calories (being generous). Trying to train for an MMA fight on 800 is lunacy. It's undereating, and will see his losing muscle mass.
There is a maximum amount of fat one can metabolise in a day, even on keto. I eat 5 or 6 times a day, on a keto diet, maintain ketosis and losing steady weight.

Eat nothing else for 16-24 hours but don't worry because the high fat content in the above meal with satiate and completely kill your hunger for the day. The lack of sugar (carbohydrates) will put your metabolism into a state of ketosis.

You are confusing keto with intermittent fasting and making a balls of both tbh.

bananabread12 wrote: »

OP's goal is to lose 4kgs. Getting into a state of ketosis and lowering insulin in the blood stream is the quickest route to accomplish that.

The quickest way is probably to water load actually. I've dropped 5kg in 5 days for a fight like that. But it's not suitably for the OP's situation.
The smartest approach isn't necessarily lose as much weight as quick as possible.

And whoever said anything about starving yourself?

The keto meal you suggested wasn't enough food imo.

bananabread12 wrote: »

No, you'll feel like a monster because ketosis increases testosterone and explodes HGH.

Testosterone production require fat. It also requires energy. How much energy where the guys in the above study consuming?

"The average caloric value of the diets equaled 3710-4020 cals.

How do you think the OP would go if he act like that?

Carbohydrates are literally toxic to the human body.

No they aren't.
I'm pro-keto, but the above is simply not true.

Being in ketosis has anti-aging properties

So does chronic undereating.
But it's not healthy, and certainly not optimal for sport.

bananabread12 wrote: »

There are far too many people in here who have not even looked at the OP...he said he's training for MMA, not a bloody catwalk...

How is one meal a day conducive to MMA training?