UN questions Pakistan after briefing by Atheist Ireland, Evangelicals and Ahmadis

Michael Nugent

This week in Geneva, the United Nations Human Rights Committee questioned Pakistan on its human rights obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Before this, the Committee was briefed by six NGOs, including a unique joint delegation from Atheist Ireland, the Evangelical Alliance of Ireland and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of Ireland. We are now awaiting the Concluding Observations of the Committee about Pakistan.

We told the Human Rights Committee that we are Atheists, Evangelical Christians, and Ahmadi Muslims from Ireland. We have very different world views, but we work together to promote human rights. We said that the work of the UN Human Rights Committee has already helped us to challenge religious discrimination in Ireland. We said we were now speaking out for minorities in Pakistan, who are afraid to speak out publicly themselves.

We told the UN Human Rights Committee that Pakistan says that it guarantees the fundamental rights of all citizens, but the reality of life on the ground contradicts this. We said that the Pakistani Penal Code is not compatible with the Covenant rights to Freedom of Religion and Belief, Non-Discrimination, Effective Remedy, Life, Protection of the State, Equality Before the Law, Privacy, Expression, Assembly, Association, and Participation in Public Affairs. The Committee addressed all of these issues in its questioning of Pakistan.

The summary linked to below covers issues that we raised with the Committee that are related to Freedom of Religion and Belief, the Blasphemy law, and related violence including mob killings of Ahmadis, forced conversions of Christians, and disappearances of secular bloggers. On each of these issues, we highlighted the intertwined problems of unjust laws, and violence outside those laws, both of which are grounded in religious discrimination and persecution.

You can read a summary here of the UN's questions to Pakistan

You can read our written submission to the UN here

Thinkingaboutit

That country seems uniquely hellish, and not just due to soaring summer temperatures.

hinault

It's none of Ireland's business, how other sovereign nations conduct their internal affairs.

EntryDenied12

It absolutely makes my blood boil how christians are persecuted in muslim denominated countries whereas in Ireland and the UK they get the freedom of practising their religion

Michael Nugent

hinault wrote: »

It's none of Ireland's business, how other sovereign nations conduct their internal affairs.

I disagree with you on ethical grounds. I think that we all have a moral right to highlight and combat human rights abuses wherever they happen.

But more significantly in practical terms, Pakistan disagrees with you on political grounds.

Pakistan has chosen to ratify the United Nation's International Covenant on Political and Civil Rights.

This means that Pakistan accepts that people from other countries have an oversight role in how Pakistan meets its human rights obligations under that treaty.

friedhof

ASK THE POOR PEOPLE OF rOCHDALE

hinault

EntryDenied12 wrote: »

It absolutely makes my blood boil how christians are persecuted in muslim denominated countries whereas in Ireland and the UK they get the freedom of practising their religion

Fair point.

Mancomb Seepgood

It's good to see people with differing beliefs taking action together on matters of common interest.

As Christians we have a duty to speak out against injustice.It's quite sad what has happened in Pakistan,in it's earlier years it was a largely secular state where Christians,Hindus and Ahmaddiya Muslims played a major role in society,but Islam was (mis)used as a wedge issue by dodgy politicians and military dictatorship to blame minorities for their misrule.

Nick Park

hinault wrote: »

It's none of Ireland's business, how other sovereign nations conduct their internal affairs.

So if Catholics get butchered in another part of the world, you think other nations should fold their arms and just look away?

If someone's 'Christianity' allows them to be indifferent to the sufferings of others, then that 'Christianity' isn't worth a toss.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

It's none of Ireland's business, how other sovereign nations conduct their internal affairs.

WOW...just WOW..... I suppose we should have just let the Nazis kill all the Jews, Roma and disabled while they were at it !

Can someone quote me so he sees this please

Mrs OBumble

Chana Fast Haircut wrote: »

WOW...just WOW..... I suppose we should have just let the Nazis kill all the Jews, Roma and disabled while they were at it !

Can someone quote me so he sees this please

My pleasure.

Also apartheid was apparently just fine ...

Collie D

EntryDenied12 wrote: »

It absolutely makes my blood boil how christians are persecuted in muslim denominated countries whereas in Ireland and the UK they get the freedom of practising their religion

So because a country treats a group of people like <snip> we should follow suit?

hinault

Nick Park wrote: »

So if Catholics get butchered in another part of the world, you think other nations should fold their arms and just look away?

If someone's 'Christianity' allows them to be indifferent to the sufferings of others, then that 'Christianity' isn't worth a toss.

I disagree.

Pakistan is a sovereign nation. It therefore has the right to self determination.

Michael Nugent

hinault wrote: »

I disagree.

Pakistan is a sovereign nation. It therefore has the right to self determination.

I've already addressed this. I disagree with you on ethical grounds. I think that we all have a moral right, and/or a moral duty, to highlight and combat human rights abuses wherever they happen.

Where do you think Pakistan gets its right to self-determination, and how does that right supersede the rights of individuals to freedom of religion and belief, freedom from discrimination, equality before the law, freedom from discrimination, etc?

But more significantly in this case, even by your interpretation, Pakistan - as part of the exercise of its right to self-determination - has itself chosen to ratify the United Nation's International Covenant on Political and Civil Rights.

This means that, even by your interpretation, Pakistan - as part of exercising its right to self-determination - has itself accepted that people from other countries have an oversight role in how Pakistan meets its human rights obligations under that treaty.

hinault

hinault wrote:

I disagree.

Pakistan is a sovereign nation. It therefore has the right to self determination.

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I've already addressed this.

The message you replied to, was my message to another poster here.
The message was not directed to you.

And you and your <snip> organisation don't make any representations on behalf of "ireland" to any other sovereign nation - in my name.

lazybones32

Collie D wrote: »

So because a country treats a group of people like <snip> we should follow suit?

Amazing how one person's breaking of the charter doesn't warrant a card yet another persons infringement does...

Guess we must wait for the retroactive modding to kick in.

Collie D

lazybones32 wrote: »

Amazing how one person's breaking of the charter doesn't warrant a card yet another persons infringement does...

Guess we must wait for the retroactive modding to kick in.

I swore, I didn't fly off the handle. But I've got my censure - apologies to moderator.

Have you anything to add?

Delirium

MOD NOTE

Thanks for bringing that post to my attention. User now carded.

Generally its more efficient to use the reporting system (as done with other carded post).


It gets an email to the mods whereas commenting on thread depends on moderator reading every post.

Thanks for your attention.

uck51js9zml2yt

Has anyone got some popcorn they want to share ?

hinault

Delirium wrote: »

MOD NOTE

Thanks for bringing that post to my attention. User now carded.

Generally its more efficient to use the reporting system (as done with other carded post).


It gets an email to the mods whereas commenting on thread depends on moderator reading every post.

Thanks for your attention.

And what about the post that I reported for your attention?

What did you do about that reported post?

You and I discussed that same issue by private message last week.

Delirium

hinault wrote: »

And what about the post that I reported for your attention?

What did you do about that reported post?

You and I discussed that same issue by private message last week.

MOD NOTE

Please don't derail the thread.

If you have any questions about moderation, feel free to use the PM function.

Thanks for your attention.

Delirium

Mod note

Off topic post deleted.

Back on topic please everyone.

Thanks for your attention.

EntryDenied12

Collie D wrote: »

So because a country treats a group of people like <snip> we should follow suit?

Do you have any morals?

Collie D

EntryDenied12 wrote: »

Do you have any morals?

How does not wanting to deny someone religious freedom equate to a lack of morals? The opposite would surely be more true

Thinkingaboutit

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I disagree with you on ethical grounds. I think that we all have a moral right to highlight and combat human rights abuses wherever they happen.

But more significantly in practical terms, Pakistan disagrees with you on political grounds.

Pakistan has chosen to ratify the United Nation's International Covenant on Political and Civil Rights.

This means that Pakistan accepts that people from other countries have an oversight role in how Pakistan meets its human rights obligations under that treaty.

Pakistan has signed certain international agreements, wishes to be part of the community of nations, and receives a good deal of Western aid. The attempted bullying of Poland by EU authorities shows when internationalism goes too far, but the savage civil and penal system, of Sharia law, introduced by Gen Zia al-Huq means Pakistan consistently fails to attain basic standards of good behaviour and morality. Pakistan must surely realise that this system makes it a poorer country. The Indian British originated civil and legal system is highly flawed, achingly inefficient, but there is a clearer effort to uphold basic decencies.

Brian?

hinault wrote: »

It's none of Ireland's business, how other sovereign nations conduct their internal affairs.

That's the least Christian answer imaginable.

Michael Nugent

The United Nations Human Rights Committee has today told Pakistan to respect human rights, including freedom of religion and belief, under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Atheist Ireland, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of Ireland, and the Evangelical Alliance of Ireland, welcome the UN’s conclusions in the following areas, which we raised in Geneva:

• Freedom of religion, belief, and conscience, including blasphemy laws
• The right to participate in public affairs
• Freedom of expression, and electronic privacy
• Early marriage and forced marriage
• Enforced disappearances and extrajudicial killings
• The Counter-Terrorism Act and the death penalty

We are particularly pleased with the emphasis that the UN has put on:

• Ending the blasphemy laws, which have a mandatory death penalty, and are particularly used against Ahmadis.
• Ending the mob violence against people accused of blasphemy, and threats to judges hearing blasphemy cases.
• Punishing hate crimes against people of religious minorities and their places of worship.
• Removing all religiously biased content from school textbooks and curricula, and regulating madrassas.
• Ending the separate electoral list for Ahmadis, and giving everybody an equal right to vote in elections.
• Ending harassment, disappearance, and killing of human rights defenders, who include atheist and secular bloggers.
• Bringing its law on electronic data collection and surveillance in line with its obligations under the Covenant.
• Eradicating child marriage, forced marriage, and related harmful practices, which include forced conversions of Christians.
• Ending the Counter-Terrorism Act definitions that allow Ahmadi publications to be treated as terrorism.
• Reinstating the moratorium on the death penalty, and either abolishing or significantly restricting it.

The next steps are

The Pakistan Government must widely disseminate the Covenant, the questioning, and these concluding observations within Pakistan, including to judges, NGOs and the general public.
Within one year, Pakistan must report back to the UN on how it is implementing the conclusions in three specific areas: freedom of religion, conscience and belief; enforced disappearance and extrajudicial killings; and the death penalty.
The next full questioning and report on Pakistan will be in July 2020.

You can read more details here