Public service pay for tech jobs is crazy low!

JigglyMcJabs

Not strictly a dev query but I thought it was worth bringing up. I was having a quick browse on a jobs site, as I often do to keep up with changes and trends.

I saw a public sector IT management position, not even permanent, with a starting salary of €48k, rising by increments over 12 years to just over €60k. I know this area well, I would put the expected salary for the requirements and responsibilities listed at €70k++ in the private sector. That's a massive difference.

The private salary is more in line with international norms, how in the name of heck will they get qualified hard working people in those seats with salaries so bad? Do people actually apply and take up these jobs?

Just for context, the role I saw on the site would be a manageable step up for me, the work looks interesting and given that it's public sector, I'd take a hit on salary for the other benefits (stability, shorter working week and better holidays), but the differential is way too much.

I think that public service IT roles should be on their own scale, instead of being bundled into a clerical type grade, if that doesn't happen then there just won't be good experienced people going for these type of roles and that does us no favours as consumers of public services.

srsly78

Yeah this is why they use so many contractors, ends up costing them more than paying market rate.

Wheety

It's also why they don't get the best people to fill these roles. The best stay in the private sector so you get substandard performance. It's a false economy.

colm_c

There is also the fact that within the public sector you can transfer between positions of the same level/grade as well as get promoted.

The domain skills are usually less of a factor than the years of service.

The work in the public service will also not be as stressful / pressure as the private sector, likely you'd be mostly managing a supplier.

Evil Phil

I think part of the psychological contact in the public sector is: It's less money yeah, but let stress, shorter working hours, and a good pension at the end of your career. Also: it's nearly impossible to fire you.

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AndrewJRenko

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Do your due diligence on this bit in particular.

Pension is now based on career average for new entrants, not final salary. Heavy contributions are taken right through your career, and they go nowhere - just into current spending. So you don't have the security of an actual pot of money with your name on it. Your future pension is dependant on the goodwill and financial health of future governments..

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It's a difficult balancing act. Jobs like this the salary is clearly too low but that you have COs with 10 years experience (debatable if it's value add) on 000s a year more than the folks in the private sector doing similar jobs for €10/€12 an hour.

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Point taken, but I think its more than likely still a better deal than a lot of private sector pensions.

Most private sector workers if they have a pension at all typically underfund it and have no idea what it will be worth.
Private sector folk now have to fund a decent proportion of what they hope to receive, rightly so.

AndrewJRenko

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There are ups and downs, but at lot of the ups have come right down in the past 10 years. The low grade PS staff will get little or no occupational pension, as the standard OAP comes off their pension entitlement, despite have paid substantial contributions.

And there is the overall risk of being dependant on the whim of future government. Any private pension can at least be put into cash if you are risk averse - so you keep your pot of money with your name on it. A public sector staff member has a promise of future payments.

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Indeed apologies, I meant Public.
I have no doubt some folk know their stuff regarding pensions but I reckon most don't and many still think having employer pay into a pension is some way analgous to the DB set up they'd have heard about growing up

14ned

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And there is the overall risk of being dependant on the whim of future government. Any private pension can at least be put into cash if you are risk averse - so you keep your pot of money with your name on it. A public sector staff member has a promise of future payments.

You're assuming here that future governments don't decide to tap private pension pots when they need money in the future. It happened here during the banking collapse, happened in Malta ... it's a genuine risk. Big penalising tax changes might come in, an annual levy ... there is lots of risk with private pensions too. Unless you can convert it into gold bars at a moment's notice, it's not really safe.

Meanwhile, the government can't be too nasty to civil servants. If annoyed, all government ceases to happen. If you look around the world, historically speaking even governments in the developing world are loath to take too much pension away from civil servants. Lots of states in the US are bankrupt because of it, and to date the US federal government has stepped in rather than renege on pension commitments.

I reckon a civil service pension is still a good bet. But you'd want to get promoted to a high rank early in your career if you want a decent pension, that crazy business of DB schemes based on your last two years of earning are long gone.

Niall

Royale with Cheese

I worked as a private sector IT consultant in the public sector for a couple of years. I don't want to offend anyone, but generally speaking your assumption about the ability of the individuals those salaries attract is correct. The generally more taxing, and especially the more time demanding project work was all farmed out to different private sector vendors.

The full time development staff were often people with absolutely no IT experience who'd been trained up on the job after transferring from a different department, with varying levels of success. You read stories of outrage in the papers every now and then about how the government are wasting millions on vendors for public sector IT projects, but the reality is that very little would get done without them. The only way I could see that changing is to offer salaries that are more competitive with the private sector, which is never going to happen. It's just part of a much wider issue really.

Elessar

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I worked as a private sector IT consultant in the public sector for a couple of years. I don't want to offend anyone, but generally speaking your assumption about the ability of the individuals those salaries attract is correct. The generally more taxing, and especially the more time demanding project work was all farmed out to different private sector vendors.

The full time development staff were often people with absolutely no IT experience who'd been trained up on the job after transferring from a different department, with varying levels of success. You read stories of outrage in the papers every now and then about how the government are wasting millions on vendors for public sector IT projects, but the reality is that very little would get done without them. The only way I could see that changing is to offer salaries that are more competitive with the private sector, which is never going to happen. It's just part of a much wider issue really.

I've no doubt you are correct, but it borders on the farcical. Not too long ago I saw a day rate contract position with a government department for ERP software work. I work around this particular area and know that experienced guys command €500-€600 a day. The department were offering €120/day. They must have had a hard time getting someone, as they increased the advertised rate to €150/day after a few months

AndrewJRenko

14ned wrote: »

You're assuming here that future governments don't decide to tap private pension pots when they need money in the future. It happened here during the banking collapse, happened in Malta ... it's a genuine risk. Big penalising tax changes might come in, an annual levy ... there is lots of risk with private pensions too. Unless you can convert it into gold bars at a moment's notice, it's not really safe.

I'm not assuming anything, because I didn't say anything about the pros and cons of private pensions. I was really focusing on public sector pensions.

Yes, there is a risk of tax changes which could claw back some of the tax relief that contributions got on the way into the pension fund all right. But most people over 50 can cash out their funds if they want to avoid any such taxes - so if that is a really significant risk, people have options.

14ned wrote: »

Meanwhile, the government can't be too nasty to civil servants. If annoyed, all government ceases to happen. If you look around the world, historically speaking even governments in the developing world are loath to take too much pension away from civil servants. Lots of states in the US are bankrupt because of it, and to date the US federal government has stepped in rather than renege on pension commitments.

Greece cut pensions - 48% for some pensions, 63% on one pension component for public sector pensions;

http://theduran.com/greece-summer-2016-eu-austerity-pensions-slashed-48/

I don't know much about the US system, but I do know that some professions like teachers and nurses have their own funds - and these are very large, powerful investment funds with considerable influence and investment power. So they are not dependant on central pension policy.

14ned wrote: »

I reckon a civil service pension is still a good bet. But you'd want to get promoted to a high rank early in your career if you want a decent pension, that crazy business of DB schemes based on your last two years of earning are long gone.

Certainly, early promotion would make a bit difference overall - but such promotions are extremely competitive these days - so no guarantees there at all. The number of people at PO level or above under 40 years of age is very, very small.

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I worked as a private sector IT consultant in the public sector for a couple of years. I don't want to offend anyone, but generally speaking your assumption about the ability of the individuals those salaries attract is correct. The generally more taxing, and especially the more time demanding project work was all farmed out to different private sector vendors.

The full time development staff were often people with absolutely no IT experience who'd been trained up on the job after transferring from a different department, with varying levels of success. You read stories of outrage in the papers every now and then about how the government are wasting millions on vendors for public sector IT projects, but the reality is that very little would get done without them. The only way I could see that changing is to offer salaries that are more competitive with the private sector, which is never going to happen. It's just part of a much wider issue really.

Outsourcing development is an industry trend, not a public sector trend. BOI did it, BT did it, Microsoft did it for parts of their internal IT.

awec

Elessar wrote: »

I've no doubt you are correct, but it borders on the farcical. Not too long ago I saw a day rate contract position with a government department for ERP software work. I work around this particular area and know that experienced guys command €500-€600 a day. The department were offering €120/day. They must have had a hard time getting someone, as they increased the advertised rate to €150/day after a few months

There is a distinct lack of common sense in the public sector. They won't pay the going rate because they aren't allowed, so if they manage to get anyone at all they get a shoddy job which costs more money in the long run.

But to change the process would take 10 years and signatures from the 500 layers of middle management.

Royale with Cheese

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Outsourcing development is an industry trend, not a public sector trend. BOI did it, BT did it, Microsoft did it for parts of their internal IT.

I'm now working as a contractor in a large private sector company, I'm well aware outsourcing is the done thing nearly everywhere. I would argue that it's for very different reasons in the public sector though. The full time devs where I work now are fairly competent, and I'd trust them to get a project completed and delivered by themselves. I just wouldn't be able to say that about my experience in the public sector.

CalamariFritti

The days of those 'gold plated' pensions are long gone. I guess you have job security as a permanent and whatever pension you will have is probably slightly more secure than a private pension.

My OH works in the public sector and from what I gather public sector IT departments have neither the competence nor the capacity to lift biggish IT projects. So for development projects they seem to get consultants in and use in-house staff for running the systems and all the knick knacks like web content, phone systems & mobiles and email and whatnot. Do day to day maintenance and some smaller stuff like conversions or reporting - stuff like that.

Means as a public service IT person you have a smaller salary but not the same demand as you would have in whats usually a fast paced private environment.

AndrewJRenko

CalamariFritti wrote: »

The days of those 'gold plated' pensions are long gone. I guess you have job security as a permanent and whatever pension you will have is probably slightly more secure than a private pension.

My OH works in the public sector and from what I gather public sector IT departments have neither the competence nor the capacity to lift biggish IT projects. So for development projects they seem to get consultants in and use in-house staff for running the systems and all the knick knacks like web content, phone systems & mobiles and email and whatnot. Do day to day maintenance and some smaller stuff like conversions or reporting - stuff like that.

Means as a public service IT person you have a smaller salary but not the same demand as you would have in whats usually a fast paced private environment.

A lot of the front line support roles have been outsourced too. The guy who comes to your desk to kick your PC around or fix your email is unlikely to be public sector employee, more likely to be a 2nd or 3rd level contractor with 2 or 3 companies skimming a margin of the rate that he finally gets paid.

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

I'm now working as a contractor in a large private sector company, I'm well aware outsourcing is the done thing nearly everywhere. I would argue that it's for very different reasons in the public sector though. The full time devs where I work now are fairly competent, and I'd trust them to get a project completed and delivered by themselves. I just wouldn't be able to say that about my experience in the public sector.

I'm in the public sector, though not in IT - but public sector IT is getting an unfair bashing here. Yes, there have been a couple of abysmal failures - PPARS in the HSE, eVoting and maybe one or two others.

All these projects largely outsourced to those smart guys in the private sector funnily enough. So shame on whoever was responsible for the outsourcing, and shame on the private sector businesses who failed to deliver.

But there are also many, many public sector IT projects go through on time on budget without any fuss or drama. Some of these are public facing like motortax.ie, online local property tax system. Some are back office, like the internal Revenue systems for monitoring tax returns and picking out the dodgy ones for audit. There are some very smart IT people who make these projects happen with a mix of internal and external resources every day.

Yes, there are some no-so-smart folks who just keep things ticking over too, and they're not unique to the public sector either.

If you joined as a new starter at heo level (grade advertised as far as I can tell) you'd be a decent way up the pension ladder even taking into account single scheme membership.

Pension is the safest there is, I wouldn't have any time for any opinion scaremongering on that note tbh.

There are rumours that difficulties such as those discussed in this thread may yet see professional paygrades introduced for IT staff, similar to auditors etc. Won't hold my breath tbh.

John_Mc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm in the public sector, though not in IT - but public sector IT is getting an unfair bashing here. Yes, there have been a couple of abysmal failures - PPARS in the HSE, eVoting and maybe one or two others.

All these projects largely outsourced to those smart guys in the private sector funnily enough. So shame on whoever was responsible for the outsourcing, and shame on the private sector businesses who failed to deliver.

I worked as a contractor in a number public departments delivering several projects, and I can tell you with certainty that pretty much all failures are down to the way the project is managed and the crazy political decisions that are made by the client (public body). You simply wouldn't believe what goes on...

AndrewJRenko

John_Mc wrote: »

I worked as a contractor in a number public departments delivering several projects, and I can tell you with certainty that pretty much all failures are down to the way the project is managed and the crazy political decisions that are made by the client (public body). You simply wouldn't believe what goes on...

"project participant blames project failures on other guy" - shocker.

The joy of being in the public sector is that most things happen in public. So project failures are generally fairly public - or can be brought into the public domain fairly easily. If there are failures going on resulting in waste of public money, it is fairly easily to shine a big light on it. Unlike the failures that I've seen in my time in the private sector, where a €1m project was resuscitated 3 times as a vanity affair for one particular director, but never actually delivered anything.

srsly78

Private sector failures waste shareholders money - these shareholders should be pissed off. Public sector failures however waste all our money.

John_Mc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

"project participant blames project failures on other guy" - shocker.

The joy of being in the public sector is that most things happen in public. So project failures are generally fairly public - or can be brought into the public domain fairly easily. If there are failures going on resulting in waste of public money, it is fairly easily to shine a big light on it. Unlike the failures that I've seen in my time in the private sector, where a €1m project was resuscitated 3 times as a vanity affair for one particular director, but never actually delivered anything.

I think you missed the point of my post - the political decisions at project management level (and higher) were the root cause of many problems. i.e doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, despite a terrible impact on the project. And you're right, neither I nor other developers were going to take the blame for that because we raised our concerns to the upper levels.

These issues were NEVER made public, despite it being in the public interest.

You're correct about the private sector, but it's their money and company and they can do what they want without scrutiny from the public.

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AndrewJRenko

srsly78 wrote: »

Private sector failures waste shareholders money - these shareholders should be pissed off. Public sector failures however waste all our money.

They waste customers' money. So can all their customers get pissed off too?

John_Mc wrote: »

I think you missed the point of my post - the political decisions at project management level (and higher) were the root cause of many problems. i.e doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, despite a terrible impact on the project. And you're right, neither I nor other developers were going to take the blame for that because we raised our concerns to the upper levels.

These issues were NEVER made public, despite it being in the public interest.

Nope, didn't miss the point at all. And your point as it stood is in some ways correct. There were some crazy political and Political decisions made that cost huge money - like the decision to proceed with buying the eVoting machines when it was very clear that the things weren't going to work securely for us.

But, there is also very clear blame on the private sector side. Remember the PPARS debacle, with the cream of private sector consultancies all taking large amounts of public money and delivering nothing? And yes, shame on those who let them do it, but also shame on those providers who took money and delivered nothing.

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Not really - lots of business failures incur 7-figure or 8-figure losses. For large multi-national organisations, these are a drop in the ocean.

John_Mc

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But, there is also very clear blame on the private sector side. Remember the PPARS debacle, with the cream of private sector consultancies all taking large amounts of public money and delivering nothing? And yes, shame on those who let them do it, but also shame on those providers who took money and delivered nothing..

The point I'm making is that the public service managers make completely incorrect decisions and make it practically impossible for anything to be delivered on time or within budget. The public isn't made aware of these decisions because they're behind closed doors. I've seen it first hand on many an occasion.

So it's the greedy private sector consultants that get the blame. Sometimes rightly so but a lot of the time, completely incorrectly.

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AndrewJRenko

John_Mc wrote: »

The point I'm making is that the public service managers make completely incorrect decisions and make it practically impossible for anything to be delivered on time or within budget. The public isn't made aware of these decisions because they're behind closed doors. I've seen it first hand on many an occasion.

So it's the greedy private sector consultants that get the blame. Sometimes rightly so but a lot of the time, completely incorrectly.

So submit an FOI request , or get a friendly TD to submit a PQ or have a chat with good journalist - there are lots of ways to shine a very bright light on bad public sector decisions.

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I was making a more like with like comparison. The public sector is not a multi national.

Like with like - multi-billion budgets and thousands of staff across multiple locations - sounds more like a multi-national than a corner shop.