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Tour de France 2017 Stage 15: Laissac-l'Église - LePuy. 12pm TV

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    #92
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,528 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Nico diary for the stage is up early this time...
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/no-win-but-now-damiano-is-back-in-the-top-10-35936742.html

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #93
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    brocbrocach wrote: »
    I was surprised they stepped up for him to be honest. It'd be great to think that they decided to help a good guy out. Geshke and DeGendt are hardened pros, I can't see them racing that hard for 22nd place alone.
    Unless Lefevre flashed the cash or something? :cool:
    I love watching Dan. Someone better name him sportsman of the year...

    It's never a bad thing for a team like Quickstep to owe you a favour. I'd say Dan did a deal on something down the line. Quickstep to help one of their riders win a stage or some such.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #94
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Kaisr Sose wrote: »
    The French don't like Froome or SKY in general. They have the same feelings towards the British in general so that may be part of it. No idea what's it's about but it's unlikely they will change their opinion.
    Not sure it's an anti brit thing at all to be honest. I think they just retain a healthy degree of scepticism about Froome's rise, and then the whole strength and tactics of Team Sky. And I know the UK media push the nice guy Chris thing, but I think there's a lot of scepticism about that too tbh!

    I'd say it was just that yesterday was the first time he's been isolated either at the front or off the back of the main group is the reason it was more noticeable yesterday, rather than it ever having gone away. I'd say the road side spectators thought the race was really opening up and were disappointed he was clawing his way back.
    Brian? wrote: »
    It's never a bad thing for a team like Quickstep to owe you a favour. I'd say Dan did a deal on something down the line. Quickstep to help one of their riders win a stage or some such.
    I only caught the highlights, but wasn't it only in the sprint for the line anyone went to the front? Then Geshke made sure there wasn't a gap? They only showed Dan pulling once he caught the group from what I saw. A nice touch, but didn't seem like anything more to me.


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    #95
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,528 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Not sure it's an anti brit thing at all to be honest. I think they just retain a healthy degree of scepticism about Froome's rise, and then the whole strength and tactics of Team Sky. And I know the UK media push the nice guy Chris thing, but I think there's a lot of scepticism about that too tbh!

    Somehow I have the feeling that if you just changed one thing - the nationality of the rider involved - to French, 99% of that scepticism would disappear amongst the French press and public...

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #96
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Somehow I have the feeling that if you just changed one thing - the nationality of the rider involved - to French, 99% of that scepticism would disappear amongst the French press and public...
    Still not convinced. Maybe he could be asked at his rest day press conference? Only they're not holding one, for the second rest day running. I'm sure they'll be the soft focus ITV interview though....


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    #97
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Regarding scepticism & booing of Sky/Froome, I think there's be some element of French/British thing going on but lest it be forgot, David Walsh who for many, rightly or wrongly, embodies ethical standards in cycling was brought into Sky to validate their methods as being clean. Well he went way over the top imo in becoming a Sky cheerleader but be that as it may, that he has changed after various revelations to saying Dave Brailsford has no credibility left & should resign - well that's a pretty huge change in attitude. William Fotheringham who co-wrote Wiggins' autobiography has stated the same thing - that Brailsford has no credibility left to answer questions during the Tour as to Sky's being a clean team.

    I've no hard opinion on Froome but it is very reasonable to question someone who went from a nobody to best in the world practically overnight in his mid 20s. How could someone not question it? And Brailsford has been exposed as a lying hypocrite since the Fancy Bears stuff about Wiggins' corticosteroid injections came out. The man with this huge reputation for obsessive attention to the tiniest details like pillow cases and so on to make marginal gains, responded that he had no idea that these banned substances which required TUEs had a history of use as doping products. That's just beyond laughable. Then his responses about Wiggins' jiffy-bag, e.g. that Brad couldn't have been on the bus & several people will attest to that in writing . . . which turned out to be totally false. There's no way that's within the margins of making a mistake, it's clearly lying. And the same journalist claimed Brailsford asked him what could he do for him to bury the story.

    All that isn't coming just frmo another cycling manager, it's from a manager that made a huge PR deal about Sky having the highest ethical standards - who eh. . . . never joined teh MPCC (Movement for Credible Cycling) which would have meant no corticosteroid injections for Brad. One could argue the least Brailsford deserves is a bit of booing.


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    #98
    brocbrocach
    Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Not sure it's an anti brit thing at all to be honest. I think they just retain a healthy degree of scepticism about Froome's rise, and then the whole strength and tactics of Team Sky. And I know the UK media push the nice guy Chris thing, but I think there's a lot of scepticism about that too tbh!

    I'd say it was just that yesterday was the first time he's been isolated either at the front or off the back of the main group is the reason it was more noticeable yesterday, rather than it ever having gone away. I'd say the road side spectators thought the race was really opening up and were disappointed he was clawing his way back.


    I only caught the highlights, but wasn't it only in the sprint for the line anyone went to the front? Then Geshke made sure there wasn't a gap? They only showed Dan pulling once he caught the group from what I saw. A nice touch, but didn't seem like anything more to me.

    No, De Gendt and Geshke to a lesser extent swapped turns with Dan from what I saw. Really pushed. I think it was a AG2R in the group with them and he obviously just stayed at the back.


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    #99
    mr spuckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,113 ✭✭✭mr spuckler


    Dan Martin's comments about the assistance from the group he joined...not sure about the last bit about stage results but they definitely rode pretty hard with him.
    After Martin opened a small gap, it initially looked as though his move would be rebuffed by the headwind, but he was able to count of the kindness of strangers when he caught some of the remnants of the early break on the run-in. Simon Geschke (Sunweb), Tsgabu Grmay (Dimension Data) and Thomas De Gendt (Lotto Soudal) rode with an intensity that belied the 22nd place finish they were contesting.

    "They helped me a bit. They're good guys and I think that was very kind of them," Martin said. "But obviously they're going for stage results as well. It's still the Tour, you know."


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    #100
    irishrover99
    Registered Users Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭irishrover99


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Somehow I have the feeling that if you just changed one thing - the nationality of the rider involved - to French, 99% of that scepticism would disappear amongst the French press and public...

    Exactly and with the history of the Festina team, they really haven't got much to be shouting about.


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    #101
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    mr spuckler wrote: »
    Dan Martin's comments about the assistance from the group he joined...not sure about the last bit about stage results but they definitely rode pretty hard with him.

    Emm Helping a member of another team is against the UCI rules ...better keep quiet about that ...remember Porte and the wheel


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    #102
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    Emm Helping a member of another team is against the UCI rules ...better keep quiet about that ...remember Porte and the wheel

    Helping a rider from another team isn't illegal. Giving them assistance is though.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #103
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Riding quite fast to the finish certainly doesn't constitute anything illegal!


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    #104
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    pelevin wrote:
    Regarding scepticism & booing of Sky/Froome, I think there's be some element of French/British thing going on but lest it be forgot, David Walsh who for many, rightly or wrongly, embodies ethical standards in cycling was brought into Sky to validate their methods as being clean. Well he went way over the top imo in becoming a Sky cheerleader but be that as it may, that he has changed after various revelations to saying Dave Brailsford has no credibility left & should resign - well that's a pretty huge change in attitude. William Fotheringham who co-wrote Wiggins' autobiography has stated the same thing - that Brailsford has no credibility left to answer questions during the Tour as to Sky's being a clean team.

    Personally I think Skys issue is the way they are perceived to ride. They would be seen as a very robotic/calculating team. That style has never been popular. You can go back to the 1960's and look at much more popular Poulidor was than Anqutueil. The dopping issue while a stick to beat sky with isn't the biggest issue. Look at how popular convicted dopers like Contador and Pantini are. The thing sky are guilty of is having a big budget compared to most other teams they can afford to buy alot of super domestiques.

    Still with Bailford you hope he'd get used to the questions. Unless sky change tactics and cyclings public perception does a u turn they'll never stop.


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    #105
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    That could be true all right Peadar about how Sky can basically negate the racing like last year in the mountains being the most obvious case in point. Rather than the most exciting days of the cycling calendar, very unwatchable stuff.


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    #106
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    pelevin wrote: »
    That could be true all right Peadar about how Sky can basically negate the racing like last year in the mountains being the most obvious case in point. Rather than the most exciting days of the cycling calendar, very unwatchable stuff.

    As a famous golfer once said "I'm here to write numbers on a scorecard, not paint pictures."


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    #107
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    Brian? wrote: »
    Helping a rider from another team isn't illegal. Giving them assistance is though.

    Those two words have the same meaning


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    #108
    rtmie
    Registered Users Posts: 501 ✭✭✭rtmie


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    Brian? wrote: »
    Helping a rider from another team isn't illegal. Giving them assistance is though.

    Those two words have the same meaning
    Well I think it is material assistance that would be illegal as in Porte's wheel. Riders deciding to push together is made and unmade continually throughout every stage.


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    #109
    MPFGLB
    Registered Users Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭MPFGLB


    pelevin wrote: »
    Regarding scepticism & booing of Sky/Froome, I think there's be some element of French/British thing going on but lest it be forgot, David Walsh who for many, rightly or wrongly, embodies ethical standards in cycling was brought into Sky to validate their methods as being clean. Well he went way over the top imo in becoming a Sky cheerleader but be that as it may, that he has changed after various revelations to saying Dave Brailsford has no credibility left & should resign - well that's a pretty huge change in attitude. William Fotheringham who co-wrote Wiggins' autobiography has stated the same thing - that Brailsford has no credibility left to answer questions during the Tour as to Sky's being a clean team.

    I've no hard opinion on Froome but it is very reasonable to question someone who went from a nobody to best in the world practically overnight in his mid 20s. How could someone not question it? And Brailsford has been exposed as a lying hypocrite since the Fancy Bears stuff about Wiggins' corticosteroid injections came out. The man with this huge reputation for obsessive attention to the tiniest details like pillow cases and so on to make marginal gains, responded that he had no idea that these banned substances which required TUEs had a history of use as doping products. That's just beyond laughable. Then his responses about Wiggins' jiffy-bag, e.g. that Brad couldn't have been on the bus & several people will attest to that in writing . . . which turned out to be totally false. There's no way that's within the margins of making a mistake, it's clearly lying. And the same journalist claimed Brailsford asked him what could he do for him to bury the story.

    All that isn't coming just frmo another cycling manager, it's from a manager that made a huge PR deal about Sky having the highest ethical standards - who eh. . . . never joined teh MPCC (Movement for Credible Cycling) which would have meant no corticosteroid injections for Brad. One could argue the least Brailsford deserves is a bit of booing.

    None of those riders deserve 'a bit of boojng' becasue it was the riders that were booed ... iIn fact I'd be booing Trek & Contador first with a current EPO positive and then Bora if one were to follow the logic of your argument

    While I am not fan of SKY racing style I think the constant leap from SKY mismanagement of PR and use of Tues (which most teams were availing of..not just SKY...where is the constant examination of Astana or others ) to out and out witch hunt is totally reprehensible and based mostly on hearsay and biased slant beyond the known facts ...
    Not to mention the constant innuendo about Froome who has proved since 2011 his abilities

    where are all those who damn Froome based on his performance now when Dan martin is matching him...because if you state one is a red flag then the other is the same ...fallen silent ??

    But I guess that doesn't sit well those who are so willing to throw stones in the most measured ways even if they are stones ... oh the hypocrisy


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    #110
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    As a famous golfer once said "I'm here to write numbers on a scorecard, not paint pictures."

    I'm here to watch it or not, and if it's sh.. to watch with no 'racing', just a super strong team negating everything, well then, I'd far prefer not to watch. And that's theoretically amongst the greatest stages & spectacles in cycling. Also there's no real comparison with golf either. No golfer is capable of negating the action! It's a totally different kind of sport.


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    #111
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    Those two words have the same meaning

    Nope. Assistance is helping with a mechanical or some such, giving a bike or a wheel. Simply riding with someone is completely different.

    The rules call out "material assistance" not
    Help.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #112
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    pelevin wrote: »
    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    As a famous golfer once said "I'm here to write numbers on a scorecard, not paint pictures."

    I'm here to watch it or not, and if it's sh.. to watch with no 'racing', just a super strong team negating everything, well then, I'd far prefer not to watch. And that's theoretically amongst the greatest stages & spectacles in cycling. Also there's no real comparison with golf either. No golfer is capable of negating the action! It's a totally different kind of sport.

    I wasn't comparing it with golf. The point is that it doesn't matter how I get it done (pretty or otherwise) once I get it done. Sponsors like results.


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    #113
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    MPFGLB wrote: »
    None of those riders deserve 'a bit of boojng' becasue it was the riders that were booed ... iIn fact I'd be booing Trek & Contador first with a current EPO positive and then Bora if one were to follow the logic of your argument

    While I am not fan of SKY racing style I think the constant leap from SKY mismanagement of PR and use of Tues (which most teams were availing of..not just SKY...where is the constant examination of Astana or others ) to out and out witch hunt is totally reprehensible and based mostly on hearsay and biased slant beyond the known facts ...
    Not to mention the constant innuendo about Froome who has proved since 2011 his abilities

    where are all those who damn Froome based on his performance now when Dan martin is matching him...because if you state one is are flag then the other is the same ...fallen silent ??

    But I guess that doesn't sit well those who are so willing to throw stones in the most measured ways even if they are stones ... oh the hypocrisy

    Fair enough, I'm no fan of Froome getting booed either but in terms of Sky & particularly Brailsford receiving censure for his imo blatant hypocrisy, then I believe he personally dserves plenty heat or criticism. In terms of just understanding why people would question Froome, I mentioned him coming from nowhere to best or close to best in the world virtually overnight which is what happened. In sports like cycling or athletic how could that not receive extreme scepticism.

    Saying Froome has proved his abilities is like saying after Armstrong became amazing in grand tours, he proved his abilities. Well, we know they're amazing. That's why they win! It's not proof of anything else though. You won't though have seen me call Froome a doper here though as I've no real opinion on it. If I believed he was dirty, I'd not have been watching all along but I think it's be stupid to have any firm opinion on him being clean either - particularly as Brailsford has been completely exposed as not someone who deserves any benefit of doubt. That as I said even firm journalistic 'fans' or defenders of Sky like Will Fotheringham & David Walsh have stated that in their opinion Brailsford has no credibility left, i.e. there is no sense in believing in his word. He has shown such faith isn't deserved.

    I tend to give benefit of doubt, otherwise I'd not be watching at all. The kind of things to annoy me though are seeing people slate say all of Astana as dirty, as happened in a big way in the 2015 Giro that Contador won. Generally the most critical were holding up Sky as by contrast paragons of virtue. Then Astana's most impressive rider, Landa, is signed by Sky. Oddly the stated certainty that he was dirty with Astana now disappeared whilst the continued faith in Sky remained. Totally inconsistent. They've also signed Diego Rosa from Astana since. If Astana are dirty, then surely this means Sky are signing dirty riders. Then Brailsford is exposed as a hypocrite regarding his hugely emphasised commitment to ethical standards - and I think that's unarguable, & yet I regularly see the same kind of people with the same positions as before. Also Braislford very much even asked for the scrutiny & being held to high standards seeing as Sky made such 'zero tolerance' claims, etc to being beyond reproach, including total bs like not joining the MPCC cos it would force them to lower standards in signing tainted riders. Just disingenuous garbage whilst somehow maintaining a near perfect public image.


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    #114
    Darkglasses
    Registered Users Posts: 14,526 ✭✭✭✭Darkglasses


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Somehow I have the feeling that if you just changed one thing - the nationality of the rider involved - to French, 99% of that scepticism would disappear amongst the French press and public...

    Don't most French casual cycling fans still fawn over Richard Virenque?

    Par exemple - http://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf20170703_01026752/richard-virenque-toujours-populaire


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    #115
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    I wasn't comparing it with golf. The point is that it doesn't matter how I get it done (pretty or otherwise) once I get it done. Sponsors like results.

    Yes but even if someone is dominating in golf, it remains something of a spectacle whereas for instance the mountains in the Tour last year were not a spectacle. There was a procession of Sky riders negating everything. As Brian Smith was talking about it on ES the other day, he likes to watch racing. That stuff by contrast is the total negating of racing, and as Poels, the strongest domestique for Sky agreed, it must be boring to watch & he'd hate to be trying to ride against it. Sport isn't jsut about results. Accountancy or something might be but not sport or it's not worth bothering with.


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    #116
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    Darkglasses wrote: »
    Don't most French casual cycling fans still fawn over Richard Virenque?

    Par exemple - http://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf20170703_01026752/richard-virenque-toujours-populaire

    Without wishing to sound elitist, is there much point in expecting an awful lot of the masses anywhere, including all of us, particularly where nationalistic issues & triumphs are concerned?

    Inevitably with some famous exceptions like Virenque & Jalabert, during the dirtiest period in cycling of the mid 90s to roughly 2010, wasn't France seen as the best or most committed country in terms of being anti-doping & this very much reflected in a huge drop off in success compared to other nations? In terms of contenders for grand tours it seems it's only very much lately when hopefully things are much better ethically that France has re-emerged as a force in producing some riders to contend in grand tours.

    Just checked & since the EPO era began, France has had 1 grand tour winner in Jalabert in the Vuelta in 1995.


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