'Dublin life is unsustainable' - meet the professionals who left for the Mid-West....

Tombo2001

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? There's plenty commute to Dublin from Cavan, Monaghan, Louth and Meath. I'm sure there's plenty from more southerly counties but I don't know any personally. :pac: There's people commuting from Armagh that I know as well.

For sure

But

Accepting that towns like Swords/ Bray/ Ashbourne / Ratoath are now basically suburbs....

Dublin depends less on the mid-East to provide labour, than Limerick depends on the Mid-West or Galway does on the West.... talking in regional terms.

PetKing

seachto7 wrote:

That is one thing we seem to do in Ireland across the board.

I wouldn't say a lack of progress equates to an acceptance of mediocrity.

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

For sure

But

Accepting that towns like Swords/ Bray/ Ashbourne / Ratoath are now basically suburbs....

Dublin depends less on the mid-East to provide labour, than Limerick depends on the Mid-West or Galway does on the West.... talking in regional terms.

I thought the argument was that Limerick jobs benefit the whole region. If so, Dublin jobs also benefit a massive region. The idea that no-one commutes to Dublin compared to Limerick is laughable.

Tombo2001

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought the argument was that Limerick jobs benefit the whole region. If so, Dublin jobs also benefit a massive region. The idea that no-one commutes to Dublin compared to Limerick is laughable.

Completely, and its not what I said.

Winning phantom arguments is also laughable.

Squall Leonhart

I'm from the southeast of the country.

I've lived and/or worked in Waterford City for 5 years, Dublin City for 18mths, Cork City for 18mths, Kilkenny 'City' for 3 years and Limerick City for 18mths.

I'm in the middle of buying a house in Limerick, where I currently live and work. It has it's problems, no point saying otherwise (everywhere has!), but I get to work inside 15 minutes most days, and it's not a big deal to get around the city from any side. Parking is easy to find, and there's enough shops/restaurants/bars for me. The only downside I have is the lack of suitable work. I was very lucky to get my current job (a transfer from Cork, but.. keeping my Cork salary), but if the company was to fold in the morning - or I lose my job for any other reason - I most likely would not be able to find a similar one, or if I did the pay is significantly lower for any position I have seen advertised.

Silentcorner

The problem with Dublin is that most of "suburban" Dublin is actually a sprawl of satellite towns, and not integrated suburbs with the necessary transport links, life in these satellite towns is pretty mundane...including huge commuting times,

Most people, in Limerick anyway, have access to parks/educational facilities/work/sport/pubs restaurantes etc within a 10-15min drive off peak, 20-30 mins peak...therefore the quality of life here is much higher than those satellite towns...the 100,000 -120,000 people in this city have a better quality of life than probably 65-75% of the 1.2million people living in Dublin.

But for some reason, a lot of people living in that environment are completely blind to the horrendous cost they are paying for small homes with big commuting times...

To live in the capital city should be an aspiration, but I do not know a single person who would like to live there, and I would know a lot of people who have lived there...not because of any perceived problem with Dublin people or the City Centre, far from it, but because of the ridiculous price of houses, and the ridiculous commuting problems...

The people who planned Dublin over the last 30 years have a lot to answer for...of course, no one will shine a light on those people!

Tombo2001

Silentcorner wrote: »

The problem with Dublin is that most of "suburban" Dublin is actually a sprawl of satellite towns, and not integrated suburbs with the necessary transport links, life in these satellite towns is pretty mundane...including huge commuting times,

Most people, in Limerick anyway, have access to parks/educational facilities/work/sport/pubs restaurantes etc within a 10-15min drive off peak, 20-30 mins peak...therefore the quality of life here is much higher than those satellite towns...the 100,000 -120,000 people in this city have a better quality of life than probably 65-75% of the 1.2million people living in Dublin.

But for some reason, a lot of people living in that environment are completely blind to the horrendous cost they are paying for small homes with big commuting times...

To live in the capital city should be an aspiration, but I do not know a single person who would like to live there, and I would know a lot of people who have lived there...not because of any perceived problem with Dublin people or the City Centre, far from it, but because of the ridiculous price of houses, and the ridiculous commuting problems...

The people who planned Dublin over the last 30 years have a lot to answer for...of course, no one will shine a light on those people!

This sort of stuff annoys me.

The people are completely blind.

.....let me see, I can get a job in Dublin....I cant outside of Dublin..... so I will live in Dublin....and if I want to buy a house there, I'll buy it where I can afford it.....that's people weighing up circumstances and making a decision. Its not 'being blind'.

Second point, the satellite towns to Dublin are just fine to live in. Blanch, Swords, Ashbourne etc.....they all have a lot going for them; parks, sports clubs, facilities etc. Its not like moving to Ballymun in the 1950s.

Harambe

My fiancee is from Dublin and still works there 3 days a week. We bought a house last year as we had a baby on the way so we had to make a decision on whether to buy in Limerick or Dublin. As much as she'd like to stay living in Dublin for work and family etc. we ended up buying in Limerick. Easy decision really, there is no way we could afford to live in Dublin and there isn't many jobs in my line of work up there. She loves it down here as well and will be moving her job down here after we get married.

Silentcorner

Tombo2001 wrote: »

This sort of stuff annoys me.

The people are completely blind.

.....let me see, I can get a job in Dublin....I cant outside of Dublin..... so I will live in Dublin....and if I want to buy a house there, I'll buy it where I can afford it.....that's people weighing up circumstances and making a decision. Its not 'being blind'.

Second point, the satellite towns to Dublin are just fine to live in. Blanch, Swords, Ashbourne etc.....they all have a lot going for them; parks, sports clubs, facilities etc. Its not like moving to Ballymun in the 1950s.

Dublin is a low rise, sprawling city deeply affected by the "planning culture" of the 80s/90s/00s....this has had a detrimental effect of the quality of life of residents of the city...in both commuting times/availability of affordable housing...of course Dublin can offer more opportunities but that is the point of this argument, those opportunities should be available elsewhere because Dublin is over developed...

I mean it cannot take the volume of people/opportunities it currently has, and because of the devastating damage that was done to Dublin along with the fact that it seems happy to be a low rise city means Ireland needs to look beyond Dublin for future sustainable urban growth...

I'm sure life in Blanch/Swords etc are fine, I'm also sure living in Shannon Town is fine, but if you are living in those towns you are not really living in Dublin...you are living in a fine satellite town...with all the drawbacks of living in a detached satellite town...

myshirt

I wouldn't agree that successive planners have a lot to answer for as regards Dublin. Measured against the hand dealt to them, I would rank the planning and development as ok to good. It is frustrating though to see this stop start development we have, and that many people are ambivalent to the level of capital spend, including an increased amount of clowns giving out about spending on infrastructure in place of current expenditure and wages of Public Servants.

For me the people who need to be hung, drawn, and quartered are those in Ennis. Dunmore Co Galway is appalling also, but Ennis is an abject and unacceptable failure. It sickens me to know people were in gainful employment and gainful pensions with how bad a job they done. The people of Ennis and the wider Clare area are good and able people and they have really been let down.

zulutango

Before we get all smug about how much better things are here, bear in mind that we're fairly much making the same mistakes in how we develop our city.

Limerick, for many reasons, is a great place to live, but it has its problems. If we're to attract people to live here then we have to make sensible decisions in how we develop the city, and low density sprawl is not going to cut it.

Silentcorner

zulutango wrote: »

Before we get all smug about how much better things are here, bear in mind that we're fairly much making the same mistakes in how we develop our city.

Limerick, for many reasons, is a great place to live, but it has its problems. If we're to attract people to live here then we have to make sensible decisions in how we develop the city, and low density sprawl is not going to cut it.

I wouldn't say smug but I do take the point, despite having 3 different local authorities (which has been damaging in a very different way) we seem to have avoided the "planning culture" that has damaged Dublin, and indeed Galway...

The problem with city life is that it punishes mistakes, but unless those mistakes are made public then they will be repeated...most people are unaware of the damage poor planning actually has...if they did they may make a different choice of destination...

For instance, if you were to give 100 Dublin based families, who wanted to move, the choice of moving to Galway or Limerick how many do you think would choose Limerick?

BoatMad

John_Mc wrote: »

The M20 motorway would be connecting Cork, Limerick and Galway all together by motorway. It might be "in the back arse of nowhere" according to those in the pale but it will serve far far more people than the population of Tallaght.

Typical Dubliner attitude on display :rolleyes:

This isnt a zero sum game, like you and others make it out to be, Dublin needs expenditure based on its needs ( and it needs a lot of it )

Other areas need expenditure on its needs, justified by that need - exclusively

the one for everyone in the audience capital spending , needs to stop , Is a motorway needed to Gort !!!.


This is from a person in rural wexford

BoatMad

The problem with city life is that it punishes mistakes

bit of a shibboleth that , in reality life punishes most if not all mistakes ., not just city life

Silentcorner

BoatMad wrote: »

bit of a shibboleth that , in reality life punishes most if not all mistakes ., not just city life

How profound!!

This is a discussion about the sustainability of Dublin...and therefore its mistakes....

BoatMad

Silentcorner wrote: »

How profound!!

This is a discussion about the sustainability of Dublin...and therefore its mistakes....

There is no issue about the sustainability of Dublin, in reality, given the size , the whole country could commute to work there ( it already nearly does )

This is not a phenonium unique to Dublin, London has many of the same issues ( its called the " London " effect ) but has invested better in its systems to support that population, whereas Dublin because of our rural biased political system constantly denudes Dublin of capital ( and of course the recession didnt help )

Modern IT orientated and largely office based service organisations, will always tend to accumulative in large urban centres , especially capital cities . Ireland has a very high preponderance of such industries as we stated late and have little or no, heavy geographical based industry ( mining, steel etc )

lets get over ourselves and fix Dublin , rather then pipe dreaming about alternative realities

ongarboy

I disagree. I live in Blanchardstown , work, socialise, shop, pretty much everything in city centre and avail of its 100s of attractions, bars, restaurants, clubs, parks, coastlines, amenities etc via a 25 minute train commute or a €6 nitelink after a night out . I lived in Castketroy for 4 years and would have found it as equally accessible/inaccessible to Limerick city centre depending which way you look at it. Dismissing suburbs as lacking quality of life is disingenuous. Blanch and surrounding areas have loads going for it too. I'm a blow in from Kerry btw so have no bias to either city.

Silentcorner

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no issue about the sustainability of Dublin, in reality, given the size , the whole country could commute to work there ( it already nearly does )

This is not a phenonium unique to Dublin, London has many of the same issues ( its called the " London " effect ) but has invested better in its systems to support that population, whereas Dublin because of our rural biased political system constantly denudes Dublin of capital ( and of course the recession didnt help )

Modern IT orientated and largely office based service organisations, will always tend to accumulative in large urban centres , especially capital cities . Ireland has a very high preponderance of such industries as we stated late and have little or no, heavy geographical based industry ( mining, steel etc )

lets get over ourselves and fix Dublin , rather then pipe dreaming about alternative realities

How does a city recover from "endemic planning corruption" spanning 30-40 years (according to the Mahon Tribunal)?

The UK has a similar problem you are correct, apparently 20% of GDP is London based, the UK have recognised this as a problem, not something to encourage...Dublin's economy represents 40% of Irish GDP...you need to go to Greece to find a similarly imbalanced economy....

"Fixing" Dublin is no longer an option....the damage of planning has ensured that 100,000s of Dublin's residents are doomed to huge commuting times...we need to stop burying our heads in the sand and realise the depth of the problems...

The M50 cannot be expanded, another M50 is not a solution...the city is low rise making it much more difficult to provide a city wide rapid transit system...the "suburban planning culture" has rendered any traffic solutions redundant...

It is also that parochial attitude that stops people seeing beyond Dublin....some people in Dublin believe that it is only "rural" Irish people that are capable of being parochial...nothing could be further from the truth...

These are the mistakes I refer to....

BoatMad

Silentcorner wrote: »

How does a city recover from "endemic planning corruption" spanning 30-40 years (according to the Mahon Tribunal)?

The UK has a similar problem you are correct, apparently 20% of GDP is London based, the UK have recognised this as a problem, not something to encourage...Dublin's economy represents 40% of Irish GDP...you need to go to Greece to find a similarly imbalanced economy....

"Fixing" Dublin is no longer an option....the damage of planning has ensured that 100,000s of Dublin's residents are doomed to huge commuting times...we need to stop burying our heads in the sand and realise the depth of the problems...

The M50 cannot be expanded, another M50 is not a solution...the city is low rise making it much more difficult to provide a city wide rapid transit system...the "suburban planning culture" has rendered any traffic solutions redundant...

It is also that parochial attitude that stops people seeing beyond Dublin....some people in Dublin believe that it is only "rural" Irish people that are capable of being parochial...nothing could be further from the truth...

These are the mistakes I refer to....

planning corruption is prevalent in every town and rural one-off in the country , quite frankly so what , the past is a land you cannot revisit

There is no issue in providing more M50s or a full metro , if Barcelona can do it we, can

you cannot force business to relocate where they dont want to

given for example Apples issue with Cork, do you think if they arrived today with 5000 jobs they'd set up in Cork , not a chance

a capital city is a unique place. lets acknowledge that and get on with providing it with the infrastructure needed to satify its occupants

It is also that parochial attitude that stops people seeing beyond Dublin....some people in Dublin believe that it is only "rural" Irish people that are capable of being parochial...nothing could be further from the truth...

The evidence of the heres" a capital plan for all of ye" , is veery much a confirmation of parochial politics and not in Dublin . we see major needed transport systems delayed will we build motorways to Gort and the M11 extension to essentially a town in the south east ! ( and I live in wexford )

The western rail corridor being a clear case in point for example.

Silentcorner

ongarboy wrote: »

I disagree. I live in Blanchardstown , work, socialise, shop, pretty much everything in city centre and avail of its 100s of attractions, bars, restaurants, clubs, parks, coastlines, amenities etc via a 25 minute train commute or a €6 nitelink after a night out . I lived in Castketroy for 4 years and would have found it as equally accessible/inaccessible to Limerick city centre depending which way you look at it. Dismissing suburbs as lacking quality of life is disingenuous. Blanch and surrounding areas have loads going for it too. I'm a blow in from Kerry btw so have no bias to either city.

You can walk into Limerick City from Castletroy into the city centre, it is 5km

A walk from Blanchardstown into Dublin City Centre is 12.5km.

I'd also guess that a house in Blanch is higher than that of Castletroy...

I'd also guess that commuting times in Blanch are a lot higher than Castletroy...

We can argue all day long about who is right/wrong...but surely we can agree that future urban growth should/will be city centre focused, this is where young people want their jobs...not in souless satellite towns!

BoatMad

Silentcorner wrote: »

You can walk into Limerick City from Castletroy into the city centre, it is 5km

A walk from Blanchardstown into Dublin City Centre is 12.5km.

I'd also guess that a house in Blanch is higher than that of Castletroy...

I'd also guess that commuting times in Blanch are a lot higher than Castletroy...

We can argue all day long about who is right/wrong...but surely we can agree that future urban growth should/will be city centre focused, this is where young people want their jobs...not in souless satellite towns!

agreed , the future is urban living , more sustainable, better services , lower costs for the state

( PS not for me of course )

Silentcorner

BoatMad wrote: »

planning corruption is prevalent in every town and rural one-off in the country , quite frankly so what , the past is a land you cannot revisit

There is no issue in providing more M50s or a full metro , if Barcelona can do it we, can

you cannot force business to relocate where they dont want to

given for example Apples issue with Cork, do you think if they arrived today with 5000 jobs they'd set up in Cork , not a chance

a capital city is a unique place. lets acknowledge that and get on with providing it with the infrastructure needed to satify its occupants



The evidence of the heres" a capital plan for all of ye" , is veery much a confirmation of parochial politics and not in Dublin . we see major needed transport systems delayed will we build motorways to Gort and the M11 extension to essentially a town in the south east ! ( and I live in wexford )

The western rail corridor being a clear case in point for example.

Well you can force people to move where they don't want to, we have been doing that in Ireland for a long time...you can easily shift investment by building infrastructure elsewhere...

Planning corruption does not exist in every town...some towns are worse affected than others....for instance Dublin was riddled in planning corruption Limerick wasn't....so what???...what a short term, brush the problem under the carpet parochial attitude!!!

How many M50s do think we should build? To build a sustainable public transport system you need critical mass...or put it another way...you need high rise development in both accommodation and office space...

I don't know what issues Apple are having in Cork, I have never heard of any issues but there is also a huge pharma sector that seem happy enough!

I agree with you about the importance of a Capital City, and I happen to enjoy Dublin....but lets take our head out of the sand it has got a LOT of issues...

"The past is a land you cannot revisit"....I love it...Bertie himself couldn't have put it better!!!

BoatMad

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well you can force people to move where they don't want to, we have been doing that in Ireland for a long time...you can easily shift investment by building infrastructure elsewhere...

Planning corruption does not exist in every town...some towns are worse affected than others....for instance Dublin was riddled in planning corruption Limerick wasn't....so what???...what a short term, brush the problem under the carpet parochial attitude!!!

How many M50s do think we should build? To build a sustainable public transport system you need critical mass...or put it another way...you need high rise development in both accommodation and office space...

I don't know what issues Apple are having in Cork, I have never heard of any issues but there is also a huge pharma sector that seem happy enough!

I agree with you about the importance of a Capital City, and I happen to enjoy Dublin....but lets take our head out of the sand it has got a LOT of issues...

"The past is a land you cannot revisit"....I love it...Bertie himself couldn't have put it better!!!

the quote is my derivative of Hartleys famous quote - thanks

Dublin was riddled in planning corruption Limerick wasn't....so what??

your joking me, Ive lived in Limerick, its one of the most badly planned urban sprawls for its size Ive ever been in

I don't know what issues Apple are having in Cork, I have never heard of any issues but there is also a huge pharma sector that seem happy enough!

Sorry , Apples complaints were from its employees

Intel however stated publicly

COMPUTING GIANT INTEL has warned Cork City Council that a shortage of rental accommodation could stymie its growth in the Rebel County.

Well you can force people to move where they don't want to, we have been doing that in Ireland for a long time...you can easily shift investment by building infrastructure elsewhere...

you cant , roads are meaningless to IT service sectors like Facebook google etc , what they need is population density and the only place in ireland that has that is Dublin

MichaelR

Balf wrote: »

I don't see what connecting the regional cities will achieve, without some kind of coherent idea of how it contributes to the cities' development.

At worst, the M20 could simply encourage the kind of sprawl that has undermined all the cities, and the regional cities in particular. The starting point is testaccount123's, which is developing a positive urban life within the city.

The M20 would enable a Limerick-Cork commute within a reasonable time. So one can live in Limerick and work in Cork, or vice versa.

There are limited but significant varieties of jobs in both cities. With M20, a family would be able to have one member working in Limerick, another in Cork, and still live together.

Silentcorner

BoatMad wrote: »

the quote is my derivative of Hartleys famous quote - thanks


your joking me, Ive lived in Limerick, its one of the most badly planned urban sprawls for its size Ive ever been in



Sorry , Apples complaints were from its employees

Intel however stated publicly





you cant , roads are meaningless to IT service sectors like Facebook google etc , what they need is population density and the only place in ireland that has that is Dublin

"Limerick is one of the worst cases of badly planned urban sprawl! Have you set foot in Dublin, Cork or Galway?

Is there a tribunal or planning report you can point to that in any way indicated that Limerick suffered from corrupt planning?


I don't care whose quote you were using, your version of it should be on Tshirts!

zulutango

Limerick in the last 40 years has been very badly planned. We're still not in a bad situation though. A real issue is that we're continuing to make bad planning decisions when we should know better at this stage.

BoatMad

Silentcorner wrote: »

"Limerick is one of the worst cases of badly planned urban sprawl! Have you set foot in Dublin, Cork or Galway?

Is there a tribunal or planning report you can point to that in any way indicated that Limerick suffered from corrupt planning?


I don't care whose quote you were using, your version of it should be on Tshirts!

An Taisce rated councils on their planning decisions

oh dear, limerick doesnt fair too well

source http://www.thejournal.ie/the-9-worst-councils-in-irelands-planning-system-418903-Apr2012/

BY THE WAY, none of the 9 they gave an "F" are in Dublin, but in places like waterford , donegal cavan etc

Silentcorner

BoatMad wrote: »

An Taisce rated councils on their planning decisions

oh dear, limerick doesnt fair too well

source http://www.thejournal.ie/the-9-worst-councils-in-irelands-planning-system-418903-Apr2012/

BY THE WAY, none of the 9 they gave an "F" are in Dublin, but in places like waterford , donegal cavan etc

Limerick has been served by 3 different local authorities when it comes to planning, giving it the worst case of doughnut effect of the 5 Irish cities...from a retail point of view it is the worst planned city in the country...

Dublin and Galway are the most congested cities in the country...which is also a planning issue...these two cities are way more congested than Limerick...the planning culture in both cities have been documented in the past...but I doubt that our government is going to put that in a league table....the central government canned the planning enquiry into 6 local authorities including Dublin, Cork and Galway local authorities...

By the way, the powers given to City/County managers are decisions made in Central Government, most of us are unaware of the controlled nature of these positions...despite the importance of local government...

BoatMad

Silentcorner wrote: »

Limerick has been served by 3 different local authorities when it comes to planning, giving it the worst case of doughnut effect of the 5 Irish cities...from a retail point of view it is the worst planned city in the country...

Dublin and Galway are the most congested cities in the country...which is also a planning issue...these two cities are way more congested than Limerick...the planning culture in both cities have been documented in the past...but I doubt that our government is going to put that in a league table....the central government canned the planning enquiry into 6 local authorities including Dublin, Cork and Galway local authorities...

By the way, the powers given to City/County managers are decisions made in Central Government, most of us are unaware of the controlled nature of these positions...despite the importance of local government...

The fact remains that a body heavily involved in planning rates several Dublin authorities above Limerick

Corruption has played a part in many planing decisions, my father was involved in its early setup in the sixties and he always complained it was a license for bribery , given the closed/arbitrary and parochial nature of planning. Its a system designed to be corrupted


but one cannot blame everything on corruption, talk to any planner and they will quickly lay out the demands being made on them , often completely contradictory goals etc

Dublin expanded , especially from the mid nineties because of rapid economic growth that then created a housing demand. Planners were largely over ruled by councillors seeking local votes and approvals

it simply cant all be placed ( or even a significant fraction) , at the hands of corruption

Silentcorner

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact remains that a body heavily involved in planning rates several Dublin authorities above Limerick

Corruption has played a part in many planing decisions, my father was involved in its early setup in the sixties and he always complained it was a license for bribery , given the closed/arbitrary and parochial nature of planning. Its a system designed to be corrupted


but one cannot blame everything on corruption, talk to any planner and they will quickly lay out the demands being made on them , often completely contradictory goals etc

Dublin expanded , especially from the mid nineties because of rapid economic growth that then created a housing demand. Planners were largely over ruled by councillors seeking local votes and approvals

it simply cant all be placed ( or even a significant fraction) , at the hands of corruption

Sure we should all just pretend it never happened so...

This country needs to start planning for a population of well over 8 million...it needs to start looking at other regional cities to be able to take that growth...until we understand the mistakes of the past we are doomed to repeat them...you cannot expect people to move to cities for opportunity and then expect them to spend their lives sitting in gridlock!