Season 7 Episode 2 "Stormborn" - "Non book readers"

Adamocovic

DeadHand wrote: »

The Ironborn aren't Samurai- they are raiders, hit and run merchants.

Retreating in the face of unfavourable odds is absolutely the Ironborn way, as Yara withdrew at the Dreadfort and attempted to convince Theon to withdraw at Winterfell.

They aren't interested in battle honour or fighting to the death.

No need to bring "Samurai" into this as has nothing to do with my comment.

Everyone is well aware the Ironborn are raiders. But the examples you have given are of them fleeing on land. They specialise at sea. Theon chose the smarter move in my opinion but surely you can see how this would be considered not the way of the Ironborn?

Every Ironborn character prides themselves on a few things, the iron price, their skills at sea, and their so called perceived bravery. All are not true but it is what they perceive themselves like and seem to like to remind other families. Theon was meant to be protector and hand of his own blood Yara. While she was captured in front of him and the other men butchered Theon fled and abandoned the fleet. Something that surely won't go down well with any survives and will be used as further insults to him.

But then again the Ironborn way also involves not spilling the blood of fellow Ironborn and rather killing them by drowning them...something Euron hardly followed :pac:

Dyr

Riskymove wrote: »

yeah he said it was bascially all hands on deck making such weapons

TBH it seems a load of bollix, if the crossbow is around in westeros then the ballista should not be anything new at all. Anyway if they were trying to hit flying objects then a scorpio would be more effective, that ballista is ****ing huge, good luck tracking anything in the air with it

These two episodes have been really poor, I get the impression that the deux ex machina factory is about to go into override before its all over.

AndLittlefinger, jesus....Gillen is just short of sneaking around covering his face with his cloak at this stage

Mr Crispy

Retreating may well have been the best tactical move, but they made it quite clear that Theon turned tail and ran (or swam) because he was panicked and scared, not because he was thinking straight.

GottaGetGatt

He saw his Kin getting tortured and it triggered his PTSD. Better to run though instead I trying to fight Euron. He would have being killed for sure along with Yara. Better to flee and regroup.

Mr Crispy

Yeah, but that's not my point.

DeadHand

Adamocovic wrote: »

No need to bring "Samurai" into this as has nothing to do with my comment.

Every Ironborn character prides themselves on a few things, the iron price, their skills at sea, and their so called perceived bravery.:

Samurai lived by a code of bushido, later adopted by regular, modern Japanese soldiery, central to which was death before dishonour. What you are arguing is that if Theon went full bushido and charged knowingly into a certain death situation the iron born would think more of him. Bushido and Ironborn military philosophy are on opposing ends of the bravery spectrum.

Iron-born are not perceived as brave, Roose Bolton correctly predicted the Greyjoy rank and file would turn on their commanders once besiged- they did so at Winterfell and Moat Cailin.

Bravery and honour are not values the Ironborn prize. Theon acted in a way consistent with their traditions and style. I doubt he was greatly respected by the Ironborn anyway (being a eunuch and overshadowed by his more dynamic sister), but he'll lose little face among them on account of his fleeing.

Euron is now their King despite fleeing from Pyke when Balon was defeated defeated for the first time. He can also be cheerfully open about having murdered his brother. Iron Islander values are very different to that of the other Westerosi.

rawn

The show writers have confirmed that Theon bolted due to terror and PTSD

DeadHand

rawn wrote: »

The show writers have confirmed that Theon bolted due to terror and PTSD

I'm aware of that and believe they framed it poorly.

They should have had Theon bolt when the battle was still in doubt rather then when it was lost. Then it would have looked more like cowardice than the correct course of action which, under the circumstances, it clearly was.

Adamocovic

DeadHand wrote: »

Samurai lived by a code of bushido, later adopted by regular, modern Japanese soldiery, central to which was death before dishonour. What you are arguing is that Theon should have went full bushido and charged knowingly into a certain death situation. Bushido and Ironborn military philosophy are on opposing ends of the bravery spectrum.

Iron-born are not perceived as brave, Roose Bolton correctly predicted the Greyjoy rank and file would turn on their commanders once besiged- they did so at Winterfell and Moat Cailin.

Bravery and honour are not values the Ironborn prize. Theon acted in a way consistent with their traditions and style. I doubt he was greatly respected by the Ironborn anyway (being a eunuch and overshadowed by his more dynamic sister), but he'll lose little face among them on account of his fleeing.

Euron is now their King despite fleeing from Pyke when Balon was defeated defeated for the first time. He can also be cheerfully open about having murdered his brother. Iron Islander values are very different to that of the other Westerosi.

I'm well aware of the code of the Samurai, but maintain my opinion that is completely irrelevant in this scenario and discussion.

In my post I said it is how the ironborn perceive themselves, not how the other families see them. I even stated that how they see themselves isn't always true but nevertheless they try to take pride from it.

As stated earlier, it appears as if Theon panicked and fled, not some calculated decision to retreat for now and prepare. I wouldn't see this as keeping with Ironborn traits at all. In fleeing with visible fear he didn't show the bravado of the Ironborn. He should weakness. Euron even went as far as laughing as he did it. Yes the Ironborn have previously decided on tactical retreats (mainly on land and outnumbered) but this was not a tactical retreat at all.

And of course iron islanders values are different, they follow the Old Way and worship the Drowned God. Now yes in the show Euron is very open and cheerful about killing his brothers but in the Ironborn culture kinslaying is meant to be forbidden. As stated before Euron doesn't exactly follow all their practices.

Anyway I'm going to leave my comments on the matter at that, no point in completely turning this thread into a discussion on the Ironborn way of life.

alchemist33

You know how the Dothraki really hate going in ships with their horses - are they all bobbing about in the sea off Dragonstone at the moment? Because it seems a little short of grazing land.

80s Child

podgemonster wrote: »

He wants "the bad pussy" I believe was the phrase.

However Robson Jerome and Lena Headley can not appear in the same scenes due to personal reasons.

Really? Care to elaborate?

Beric Dondarrion

80s Child wrote: »

Really? Care to elaborate?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10693120/Game-of-Thrones-stars-Lena-Headey-and-Jerome-Flynn-not-on-speaking-terms.html

There's a bit more on a few other websites saying that they are not to share any scenes together either...

Adamocovic

80s Child wrote: »

Really? Care to elaborate?

Apparently Lena and Jerome had a bit of a thing a number of years ago and it didn't end too well.

Hard to know how much of it all is true but apparently they don't exactly get on after it.

raspberrypi67

I have to say, so far these 2 episodes have been S***e!!

Theron was saying something in the second episode and spoke fairly clearly for a guy whos tongue was supposedly cut out...correct me if I'm wrong??

Bloody boring so far......

Might not bother watching them till its all over ,....

Bambi wrote: »

TBH it seems a load of bollix, if the crossbow is around in westeros then the ballista should not be anything new at all. Anyway if they were trying to hit flying objects then a scorpio would be more effective, that ballista is ****ing huge, good luck tracking anything in the air with it

These two episodes have been really poor, I get the impression that the deux ex machina factory is about to go into override before its all over.

AndLittlefinger, jesus....Gillen is just short of sneaking around covering his face with his cloak at this stage

Beric Dondarrion

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

...correct me if I'm wrong??

..

You are wrong...he's missing something alright but it's not his tongue. He did have a finger or two flayed by Ramsey Bolton too...

Ilyn Payne on the other hand, he doesn't say much... on account of having no tongue..

DeadHand

Odd that Tyrion was happy to ally himself with the Ellaria in light of the fact she murdered his beloved niece of for no good reason. He must have known, he has been around Varys enough. He also has no qualms inflicting a horde of rapists on the people who raised him and he grew up with at Casterly Rock/the Westerland. Team Dany look less and less like the good guys with each episode- particularly in the type of people they happily ally with.

People tend to overlook just how despicable Ellaria and the Sandsnakes were. They needlessly murder Myrcella and Trystane- innocent kids. They murder the crippled Prince Doran- a good, measured ruler who had earlier shown them mercy, ostensibly as revenge for the Viper- which is stupid as Oberyn loved his family above all else, the butchering of his brother and nephew would be horrible to him. Very effective at killing the defenseless, against a savage like Euron- not so much.

Vile people- no better than Cersei and I hope she has them torn to pieces in the next one.

14murphy

Is anyone else amazed by the mountain. What is he zombie, monster or a horror experiment gone wrong ? I hope we get to see him more throuhgout this season.

DeadHand

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

...correct me if I'm wrong.

Might not bother watching them till its all over ,....

You're wrong alright- about a lot more than just that.

The fact you think Theon is a mute would suggest you haven't been watching at all.

Vojera

alchemist33 wrote: »

You know how the Dothraki really hate going in ships with their horses - are they all bobbing about in the sea off Dragonstone at the moment? Because it seems a little short of grazing land.

They're at Dragonstone, presumably (or somewhere on the mainland nearby, I don't know how much grassland there is on the island). If Yara was going to bring the Dornish army back with her, those ships would have been empty for her trip south. They may have even been operating on skeleton crews, which could have contributed to Euron's victory.

EDIT: Sorry, I read your post as them having drowned after Yara's ships were destroyed.

I was thinking that myself. According to the map, there's a bit more to the island than just the fortifications, but you're right, it doesn't seem prairie-like at all. There does look to be another island close by that might be a little more suitable. Or else they've been put on the mainland nearby. Can't see that going down well, though. That would really be an invitation for Cersei to attack them.

lazybones32

DeadHand wrote: »

Odd that Tyrion was happy to ally himself with the Ellaria in light of the fact she murdered his beloved niece of for no good reason...


Team Dany look less and less like the good guys with each episode- particularly in the type of people they happily ally with...

Vile people- no better than Cersei and I hope she has them torn to pieces in the next one.

I thought tyrion passed some comment about myrcella though?

The iron throne was mostly attained by war and violence. Cersei isn't going to relinquish it or flee into hiding. It is a battle for survival and the woman who nuked the sept, will happily send armies to their death if it maintains her on the throne. I think dany becoming more machiavellian is necessary. Being honourable gets you nowhere in a world of cutthroats. Every character arc progresses from good to bad or bad to good and back again: the hound, sansa, jaime, so dany will have to show more bloodlust without letting it consume her.

I can't see cersei allowing herself to being taken prisoner, if KL does fall.

DeadHand

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'm well aware of the code of the Samurai, but maintain my opinion that is completely irrelevant in this scenario and discussion

No, it's not.

It's a useful comparison to make in trying to explain the reality of Theon's situation: that the Ironborn won't care very much that he fled because their values are very different to those of other warrior cultures.

PressRun

I wonder what the story is with the Tarly father. He's an interesting character. His conversation with Jamie would point to him becoming more involved in the story.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

I have to say, so far these 2 episodes have been S***e!!

I know you are entitled to your opinion and all, but you're wrong

Lemlin

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Then there's Arya, also heading north to be re-united with her family. Arya, who as cup-bearer to Tywin Lannister was present at a meeting between Tywin and Littlefinger. And finally, Bran who may or may not know anything about Littlefinger's betrayals.

Is she though? I basically saw the Nymeria scene as Arya deciding that her direwolf had changed and she had also.

I think when we next see her again she'll be back on the road to Kings Landing.

Speaking of which, how many of the direwolves are actually left?

From an article I read this week (I know its from Joe.ie but it did have interesting quotes!)

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/14-things-you-may-have-missed-from-the-recent-game-of-thrones-episode-596141

On that scene,  Maisie Williams told EW that: "Nymeria has created her own world and created her own pack and isn’t ready to be Arya’s pet. To be someone’s pet would reverse everything she’s learned. So they almost just regard each other and go their separate ways.”
Producer Bryan Cogman added that "Arya and Nymeria do and don’t have the connection they’ve always had. In the end, they’re both lone wolves. They can’t go back to the way things were. And that might be foreshadowing for Arya too.
In an in Inside the Episode video, show runner D.B Weiss said that "That's not you' is a direct reference to what Arya herself said to her father when her father painted this picture for her of the life she could have as a lady of a castle and marrying some lord and wearing a nice frilly dress."
Essentially, both Arya and Nymeria are lone wolves now - they've changed too much for things to go back to how their relationship used to be - but that's not to say that Nymeria won't come to Arya's aid at some point.

Daledge

Lemlin wrote: »

Is she though? I basically saw the Nymeria scene as Arya deciding that her direwolf had changed and she had also.

I think when we next see her again she'll be back on the road to Kings Landing.

Speaking of which, how many of the direwolves are actually left?

Just Jons (Ghost) and Aryas (Nymeria, obviously).

expectationlost

why didn't the ironlady say at the war council, my uncle might be after me

J. Marston

Cogman said they had a scene with Jon and Ghost too in this episode but it had to be cut.

Shame, if Ghost is the size of Nymeria, he'll look awesome.

Adamocovic

DeadHand wrote: »

No, it's not.

It's a useful comparison to make in trying to explain the reality of Theon's situation: that the Ironborn won't care very much that he fled because their values are very different to those of other warrior cultures.

Again not about the fact he fled, about the manner of which.
I guess we will have to wait and see for the next episode to see whether they care or not about the manner of which Theon fled.

EagererBeaver

J. Marston wrote: »

Cogman said they had a scene with Jon and Ghost too in this episode but it had to be cut.

Shame, if Ghost is the size of Nymeria, he'll look awesome.

Ghost is "the runt of the litter"

Cantona's Collars

Did anyone notice that the statues of the Direwolves outside the crypt at Winter fell had been decapitated by the Bolton's?

Billy86

Cianos wrote: »

The topknot and dickon lines summarise a playing loose with the script in a way that's miles apart from the elegance and tightness of the earlier seasons.

You sure?

I understand that if any more words come pouring out your c**t mouth, I'm going to have to eat every f***ing chicken in this room.

Any man dies with a clean sword, I'll rape his f***ing corpse!

Billy86

One thing on the show that has irritated me a bit this year is the darkness, it's often a kind of cheap trick to suggest to audiences that "sh*t it getting serious now". It's a shame because the shows has been so rich in colour through it's run in various settings such as King's Landing, chunk of Essos, Highgarden (which I would have liked to see a little more of) and as bad as it otherwise was, Dorne. This also made the starker regions like the Essos desert and the Wall really stand out further in their own right and made the dreary places like The Vale or Winterfell really distinct as well - without any known characters or settings (e.g. the KL throne room, the sky door in the Eyrie, etc) you would still know where you were within 2-3 seconds which really helped the show seem more like a collection of stories within it.

I guess on one hand it does make sense as the stories are all converging into one, but it does at times seem a bit cheap and forced - areas like KL should still be brighter than they are to create some contrast; hopefully the largely uninvolved areas of Casterley Rock and possibly some more Highgarden could help there. The blacks are a bit too black too often, the whites too white and there is a favouritism toward darker colours a bit too much for my liking. It works great in the areas just south of The Wall (like the house with The Hound and the Brotherhood Without Banners last week), but it's getting overdone. Not a huge deal, but still a bit niggly it would have had more effect if they left it for when the White Walkers inevitably break through or approach directly on The Wall in my opinion.

Harry Potter is another example of this, quick example of their intros through each film:

EagererBeaver

When were we in Highgarden before?

leggo

Billy86 wrote: »

One thing on the show that has irritated me a bit this year is the darkness, it's often a kind of cheap trick to suggest to audiences that "sh*t it getting serious now". It's a shame because the shows has been so rich in colour through it's run in various settings such as King's Landing, chunk of Essos, Highgarden (which I would have liked to see a little more of) and as bad as it otherwise was, Dorne. This also made the starker regions like the Essos desert and the Wall really stand out further in their own right and made the dreary places like The Vale or Winterfell really distinct as well - without any known characters or settings (e.g. the KL throne room, the sky door in the Eyrie, etc) you would still know where you were within 2-3 seconds which really helped the show seem more like a collection of stories within it.

I guess on one hand it does make sense as the stories are all converging into one, but it does at times seem a bit cheap and forced - areas like KL should still be brighter than they are to create some contrast; hopefully the largely uninvolved areas of Casterley Rock and possibly some more Highgarden could help there. The blacks are a bit too black too often, the whites too white and there is a favouritism toward darker colours a bit too much for my liking. It works great in the areas just south of The Wall (like the house with The Hound and the Brotherhood Without Banners last week), but it's getting overdone. Not a huge deal, but still a bit niggly it would have had more effect if they left it for when the White Walkers inevitably break through or approach directly on The Wall in my opinion.

Harry Potter is another example of this, quick example of their intros through each film:

I think it's because winter, and the second long night, has come.

Billy86

EagererBeaver wrote: »

When were we in Highgarden before?

Very briefly, Olenna's sit downs with Margaery etc in the gardens overlooking the water. At least I had thought they were in Highgarden?

I'm not sure if he was in Highgarden or not, but with them backing him and around him, scenes with Renly early on also gave a bit of a sense of it.

EagererBeaver

Billy86 wrote: »

Very briefly, Olenna's sit downs with Margaery etc in the gardens overlooking the water. At least I had thought they were in Highgarden?

I'm not sure if he was in Highgarden or not, but with them backing him and around him, scenes with Renly early on also gave a bit of a sense of it.

I think the Olenna/Margaery scenes were in KL. Renly scenes a long way back but I think in the stormlands in vicinity of Storm's End, possibly in SE itself.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

It's got me thinking where the show has gone in Westeros. Afaik we've been in every kingdom, although only very briefly in The Stormlands, The Rock and The Reach. The regional capitals of those 3 kingdoms are the only capitals we haven't seen (open to correction on that though).

DeadHand

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

It's got me thinking where the show has gone in Westeros. Afaik we've been in every kingdom, although only very briefly in The Stormlands, The Rock and The Reach. The regional capitals of those 3 kingdoms are the only capitals we haven't seen (open to correction on that though).

I don't think we've been in the Westerlands at all.

Renly's final scenes were in the Stormlands- though we never see Storm's End itself.

We've been in Hornhill and Oldtown as far as the Reach goes but not Highgarden.

EagererBeaver

Haven't been in the Westerlands yet although that'll be changing in the next couple of weeks I imagine.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

DeadHand wrote: »

I don't think we've been in the Westerlands at all.

Renly's final scenes were in the Stormlands- though we never see Storm's End itself.

We've been in Hornhill and Oldtown as far as the Reach goes but not Highgarden.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Haven't been in the Westerlands yet although that'll be changing in the next couple of weeks I imagine.

Cersei's flashback to the prophecy?

EagererBeaver

Big Pussy Bonpensiero wrote: »

Cersei's flashback to the prophecy?

Meh, count that if you want.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Meh, count that if you want.

I will, seeing as they went there.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

DeadHand wrote: »

Odd that Tyrion was happy to ally himself with the Ellaria in light of the fact she murdered his beloved niece of for no good reason. He must have known, he has been around Varys enough. He also has no qualms inflicting a horde of rapists on the people who raised him and he grew up with at Casterly Rock/the Westerland. Team Dany look less and less like the good guys with each episode- particularly in the type of people they happily ally with.

Nothing was really shown in either episode about this, but maybe he's not happy with the alliance. Maybe he knows that Ellaria is the lesser of two evils? Thinking back to Tyrions trial, I know it was in Kings Landing, but he did say he would like to poison all of the lords and ladies in the crowd, maybe he feels the same way regardless of location. I think Tyrion knows that Cersei's reign will be catastrophic for the 7 kingdoms and that they have a far better chance with Daenerys, maybe?

Tin Foil Hat

Daledge wrote: »

Dany's attitude during this episode made me feel like she may end up as mad as her father by the end. Be a very unexpected twist if she ended up being the "bad guy".

Would it? She's always been a nasty piece of work, in my opinion.

expectationlost

still confused over the geography, somebody suggested danny had to pass sunspear to get to dragonstone? and then she sent them back that way...

DeadHand

Joel Substantial Year wrote: »

Nothing was really shown in either episode about this, but maybe he's not happy with the alliance. Maybe he knows that Ellaria is the lesser of two evils? Thinking back to Tyrions trial, I know it was in Kings Landing, but he did say he would like to poison all of the lords and ladies in the crowd, maybe he feels the same way regardless of location. I think Tyrion knows that Cersei's reign will be catastrophic for the 7 kingdoms and that they have a far better chance with Daenerys, maybe?

True enough, but it seems a massive thing to stomach for the sake of realpolitik given the affection Tyrion had Myrcella and the unjust, unnecessary nature of the murder.

CMOTDibbler

expectationlost wrote: »

still confused over the geography, somebody suggested danny had to pass sunspear to get to dragonstone? and then she sent them back that way...

Somebody was wrong. Dany came from Essos, across the Narrow Sea. Like coming from Liverpool to Dublin basically. You wouldn't go around Hook Head on that trip.

EagererBeaver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Somebody was wrong. Dany came from Essos, across the Narrow Sea. Like coming from Liverpool to Dublin basically. You wouldn't go around Hook Head on that trip.

Did she? I assumed she sailed from slavers bay and would have to journey up the narrow sea, past Dorne.

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Did she? I assumed she sailed from slavers bay and would have to journey up the narrow sea, past Dorne.

Yeah, you're correct. But there probably wouldn't have been room. There's an interactive map here that should help with the geography. You can choose the books or the TV series to see who travelled where and when.

As Dany's fleet passed, I think Ellaria sailed out with a small fleet to meet them rather than her stopping at Sunspear. Also, since ships were required to ferry the Dornish army to KL, clearly there wouldn't have been room for them on that trip; being full to the gunwales with Dothraki and Unsillied.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

and Unsillied.

Soldiers who have all frivolity removed from them by a unique process of physical and psychological conditioning and alteration.