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Season 7 Episode 2 "Stormborn" - "Book readers"
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Enjoyed that episode. Lots of "Yay" moments:
- Couple of sand snakes bought it. Always a good thing
- Nymeria. You knew it was coming the instant her horse started moving but nice all the same. I always imagined her pack as being in the hundreds though.
- Hot Pie. (I tell ya, that kid from Stranger Things got BIG
) - Varys. When reading the books I always thought that: That he didn't give a sh*t who was on the throne so long as it was the right person to fight the walkers (Of course the last chapter of ADWD changed that a bit)
- Jim Broadbent (Again)
- Missander (Or however you spell it). Good God.
- Was cool to see so many characters at the start: Dany, Tyrion, Lady Tyrell, Varys, even the sandsnakes/greyjoys. It was like The Anenge-eros
Not so "Yay"- Euron's still hanging around and his entrance was comically OTT
- Rocket Fireballs. At one stage I thought it was Dany coming to the rescue.
- Just, y'know.... please end sand snakes & boring vikings.
- Dragon Crossbow.
- Westeros Instant Messaging is getting even MORE instant. Silly at this stage.
- Littlefinger getting more and more mustache-twirling. I always read him as being almost like Varys: He wants the best person on the throne but only so he can profit/influence. (Maybe that's just my memory of the books though)
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TheIrishGrover wrote: »Enjoyed that episode. Lots of "Yay" moments:
- Couple of sand snakes bought it. Always a good thing
- Nymeria. You knew it was coming the instant her horse started moving but nice all the same. I always imagined her pack as being in the hundreds though.
- Hot Pie. (I tell ya, that kid from Stranger Things got BIG )
- Varys. When reading the books I always thought that: That he didn't give a sh*t who was on the throne so long as it was the right person to fight the walkers (Of course the last chapter of ADWD changed that a bit)
- Jim Broadbent (Again)
- Missander (Or however you spell it). Good God.
- Was cool to see so many characters at the start: Dany, Tyrion, Lady Tyrell, Varys, even the sandsnakes/greyjoys. It was like The Anenge-eros
Not so "Yay"- Euron's still hanging around and his entrance was comically OTT
- Rocket Fireballs. At one stage I thought it was Dany coming to the rescue.
- Just, y'know.... please end sand snakes & boring vikings.
- Dragon Crossbow.
- Westeros Instant Messaging is getting even MORE instant. Silly at this stage.
- Littlefinger getting more and more mustache-twirling. I always read him as being almost like Varys: He wants the best person on the throne but only so he can profit/influence. (Maybe that's just my memory of the books though)
This regarding ravens? I see this complaint a lot around the internet.
I'd love to know what the people complaining consider an acceptable amount of time for a bird to be in transit. 3-4 episodes?0 -
CMOTDibbler wrote: »Well that's kind of the point of all that wandering around Essos. Conquering is easy (once you have the firepower
), ruling is difficult. So it's logical that she's learned those lessons and would be wary of charging in, all dragons blazing.
Well the ointment is called a 'treatment', which one would assume prevents the greyscale from coming back once it's cut off. After all, the stuff seems to spread through the bloodstream, otherwise cutting off the visible manifestation would just be a painful way of passing the time.
No, Daenerys’ purpose in Essos is to gather an army/support with the end goal of returning to Westeros and taking her “birthright”. The fact that she stayed in Essos so long is a stalling tactic. This is the point I am making. Daenerys could not return to Westeros sooner for thematic reasons but more importantly for me, because the rules of narrative structure. Daenerys simply could not travel to Westeros until the final act, which we are in now. So, GRRM and the show runners had to give her something to do until it is narratively suitable for her to travel to Westeros, like the specific example I used in my original post, having her wandering the desert for an entire season/book. This is the point I am making. I would also like to point out that Daenerys has had opportunity to return home previously, for example when the royal families of Slavers’ Bay offered her the use of their ships to carry her to Westeros. As you say “conquering is easy when you have the firepower”, she has had this for quite some time. At this point Daenerys had more than an adequate force to take Westeros, more than enough resources and three dragons. Her primary motivation is to retake that which was taken from her, her “birthright”, the Iron Throne. This is her sole purpose for existing, it’s her narrative drive. She could have done it then and there, yet she didn’t. This is because ASOIAF is not just Daenerys’ story. She gives the excuse of learning how to rule, but the real reason is because it did not fit in to the narrative structure. So, they stalled her in Meereen. The vast majority of Daenerys’ storyline is stalling until the narrative is ready for her return to Westeros.
I am not claiming to be an expert but because of my background I can often see the mechanisms at work in a piece of writing or in a film. It seems you can not. This is not a criticism of you and is not meant to be cutting in any way. However, you do say “well, that’s the point of wandering all around Essos conquering is easy, ruling is hard.” This is where I fundamentally disagree with you. Can you please explain to me what Daenerys learns by wandering through the desert for a full season/book? How does this advance her character? In fairness, the show handles this thread better by having her arrive in Qarth sooner, and once there giving her more conflict, for example the multiple betrayals (her loyal handmaiden) and having her dragons stolen which I do not believe happens in the books. This does nothing for Daenerys other than give her something to do as other character narratives unfold. It is a stalling tactic. It is also tough to read, I would nearly prefer to wander the desert myself than sit through that again. I am not saying that Daenerys does not progress as a character or does not make progress towards her goal over the course of six seasons, she does, at specific points which are timed to the overarching narrative. The point I am making is that most of her story is stalling, or just giving her something to do until it is the correct time with regards narrative structure.
The immense scale of ASOIAF necessarily means that different characters/narratives progress at different speeds. There is also an overarching narrative. A Game of Thrones is also somewhat unique in that there will be a double climax, this complicates things somewhat. The first climax, and the one we have focused far more attention to, will see somebody sit on the Iron Throne. The second will be the war with the white walkers. This narrative is mainly a subplot as it only concerned the characters at the wall, the vast majority of characters are unaware of it, but paradoxically it is far more important to the characters. What this means is that narratives progress at different rates. So, some of the primary characters necessarily must be given something to do (or stalled) as narratives elsewhere progress. This is more true of characters who are not in Westeros, and is especially true of Daenerys. The vast majority of Daenerys’ storyline is stalling. This is not only true of Daenerys but it is especially true of her, lets just take the example of Tyrion once he leaves Westeros. Now I cannot remember exactly but once in Pentos he lives with a rich merchant, winds up a slave, falls in with sell swords, works as some sort of clown, has another little person lady fall in love with him, starts travelling with Aerys II Targaryen and is kidnapped by Jorah. Most of these storylines are unnecessary and are just giving him something to do.
Now, the specific example I used in my original post to illustrate my point is having Daenerys lost in the desert, however, you mention Essos. My argument is that the majority of Daenerys’ storyline so far has been a stall tactic, not all of it, but most. I think you were talking/meant Daenerys’ time in Slavers’ Bay and particularly Meereen. I also think that the fact that she remains there and so most of what happens there is also a stalling tactic. However, there may be an argument for your point here so let’s take a closer look.
Daenerys is like Winston Churchill, she is a very good war time ruler, but she is not a good peace time ruler. Meereen shows us this. She is a conqueror, multiple characters say this very thing to her many times. But more than anything else Meereen is simply to give Daenerys something to do until the rules of narrative structure allow her to progress to what she actually ought be doing and to fulfil her goal. Meereen gives Daenerys somewhere to be plausibly trapped. What is happening right now in the books? She is literally trapped in Meereen because the city is under siege. But more importantly for your argument, she is learning little to nothing while she is there, except how to rule poorly.
First of all, she is rigid, she cannot adapt. In some circles of political theory this is seen as the most important aspect of a leader. Politics is not about laying plans years in advance like a game of chess but rather dealing with the uppity b-word that is fate or ill fortune. It is about turning these events to your favour. There are instances of Daenerys doing this prior to Meereen, for example her marriage to Khal Drogo and more significantly his subsequent death (which she used to hatch her dragon eggs). However, once she gains power, Daenerys is a moral absolutist and does not compromise. For example, she is against slavery, so conquers Yunkai and Astapor. Then she just trots off and leaves them to their own devices. She does not establish a power structure or institutions of support. What happens? They are quickly retaken by the Masters in another bloody coup and the people are punished. They are worse off now than when she arrived.
She does not compromise or adapt as a leader, she simply follows her strict morality which leads her down a tunnel of bad choices with worse outcomes. For example in season five she turns down a peace offer that would free the Yunkai slaves and stop the conflict in her own city, Meereen, between her forces and the Masters of Meereen. She turns this offer down because of her moral absolutism. She will not reopen the fighting pits. This is despite evidence from free slaves who tell her they want to fight in the pits. This continues the slaughter in her streets and things are even worse for the slaves now that they are free.
The slaves do not have work. They are starving. She opens group houses for them, the conditions there are terrible, especially for elderly slaves. The young slaves rob from them and beat them. As I said previously, Daenerys is a war time leader, this is the only time she shows adaptability or thinking on her feet, for example her taking leadership of the Dothraki or her acquisition of the Unsullied in Astapor, however there are far more examples of her not being malleable or adaptable in peace time. So, in this aspect of leadership, what many political theorists say is the most important, she is a poor leader. But, most importantly with regards your argument she does not improve this while at Meereen or Essos in general. So, in her time in Essos she learns nothing about being a good leader.
In any given society there are different interest groups. In a good society, under a good leader, each interest group would discourse freely and interalia. If this does not happen it inevitably leads to violence. Now, lets take Meereen. There is not discourse with the old Meereenese families, the Masters. Daenerys grants audience to a representative but never takes their concerns about culture or the economy seriously. This directly leads to violence, for example The Sons of the Harpy. However she does not just disregard the Masters, she also does not listen to the majority of the people. To illustrate this take the example of the former slave that executes a Son of the Harpy. The attending crowd clearly vote to spare his life however Daenerys beheads him in front of them. The people petition her for better housing, she ignores them. So, this important aspect of Daenerys’ leadership is poor and there is no evidence to show that she learned anything, or improved it in her time in Meereen.
Daenerys is not interested in ruling Meereen. She spends here entire time in Meereen talking about how she is going to go home and conquer Westeros. She frees thousands of people and does not set up any supports. There is actually some fascinating literature about this subject, when the black slaves were freed in America, particularly an essay by W.E.B. Dubois but I can’t get in to it here. She does an extremely poor job of ruling in Meereen. Her time there is mired by the suffering of the people, war, starvation, pestilence ect,. A good leader ought to pursue the common good of the state while also seeking personal glory. Daenerys only does the second part. The goal of leadership is political stability. Tell me, is Astapor politically stable? Is Yunkai? What about Meereen? The answer to these questions is emphatically “no”. So, Daenerys learns nothing about being a good queen in Essos. I’ll repeat what I said earlier, Daenerys is a great leader in times of war, but when it comes to day to day leadership she is not good, furthermore she did not learn anything from her time in Meereen. She is a conqueror, this is said to her many times by many people for example in Season 6 Episode 06 “Blood of My Blood”:
Daario Naharis: “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace.”
Daenerys: “What was I made for?
Daario Naharis: “You’re a conqueror Daenerys Stormborn”.
So, what does this tell us? Daenerys makes decisions based on moral absolutism which often leads to rash decisions and her “doing the right thing” does not take in to account what the people actually want nor did she learn how to establish institutional structures to support her subjects. This is fairly important because now she is in Westeros with a hundred thousand fighting men, many of whom are ravaging, savage Dothraki. When the war is finished what is she going to do with them? How is she going to feed and house that many soldiers once the war is over? These men have no cultural knowledge of Westeros, they don’t speak the language and have no other skill set other than fighting (Unsullied). They are career soldiers. What is Daenerys’ plan? Evidence suggests that she does not have one, because she learned nothing from her time in Meereen.
These last few paragraphs clearly show that your argument, such that it is, holds absolutely no water what so ever. However, I do not want this to detract from my main argument that quite a lot of Daenerys’ storyline has been just stalling.
The political section of this post is based mainly on the series, but if you look at the Meereen section of the book there are even more of these stalling tactics, at the moment she trapped there because of a siege. Can not get more stalled than that. As I have said previously, what I refer to as “stalling tactics” or giving characters something to do until there time comes with regards to narrative structure is necessary, especially in a narrative as large as this one. Daenerys’ storyline is mainly a series of stalling tactics until it is the right time in the overarching narrative for her to arrive, which is the last act. But, if you still don’t believe me I’ll return to the example I used in my original post, she wanders the desert for significant period of time.
It is not just series that have an overarching structure but seasons too (and episodes, scenes and films). This is the reason Daenerys has not went straight on the attack, not as you say “So it's logical that she's learned those lessons and would be wary of charging in, all dragons blazing,” because I have clearly shown that she has not learned anything, in fact I have shown that it is when she is the warrior queen, it is when she is adaptable in battle that she has her greatest successes. I have given you examples of this, and I can give you more if you like. She had plenty of time to plan her conquering of Westoros en route to Westeros. She could have landed and gone straight on the attack, caught a good few people unawares, gather the support of more houses, most armies in Westeros would give up or give in as soon as they saw her dragons. Instead her hundred thousand soldiers are sitting a beach twiddling there thumbs. This is because of the rules of narrative structure, the battle that will see her sit on the Iron Throne must come as and at a climax. This will be episode six or seven. Until then what we will see is Daenerys stalling, being given things to do that really don’t matter all that much, until it is time for the showdown. There will be a few minor skirmishes, but the big battle will not occur until episode six, maybe seven. Generally in GOT episode seven sets up the next season, so something will happen with the White Walkers, perhaps they’ll breach the wall at Eastwatch-By-The-Sea, where Tormund is heading with the wildlings per Jon’s request.
As for what I said about regarding Sam, Jorah and the Grey Scale, my argument there was based on Sam saying that the ointment was “for the wound not the disease.” I rewatched that seen just before I wrote this, and he doesn’t say that the ointment is for the wound. He just mentions the ointment. So, I was mistaken there, and I am glad and satisfied with that because if all you had to do with grey scale was cut it off that would be a cop out.
While I am at it I just want to take a moment to gloat. Last week I argued that Arya did not know her kin had retaken the north. Others argued against me but this episode proved me right.
Finally and most importantly I want to reiterate that this post is in no way an attack on you. I have a serious issue when it comes to online communication. I tend to come across as aggressive, or catty or churlish. I absolutely do not intend this post to be anything other than pleasant towards you. If anything I’m thankful for your comments because it got me to think more deeply about mine.0 -
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Disposable1 wrote: »CMOTDibbler wrote: »Well that's kind of the point of all that wandering around Essos. Conquering is easy (once you have the firepower), ruling is difficult. So it's logical that she's learned those lessons and would be wary of charging in, all dragons blazing.
Well the ointment is called a 'treatment', which one would assume prevents the greyscale from coming back once it's cut off. After all, the stuff seems to spread through the bloodstream, otherwise cutting off the visible manifestation would just be a painful way of passing the time.
No, Daenerys’ purpose in Essos is to gather an army/support with the end goal of returning to Westeros and taking her “birthright”. The fact that she stayed in Essos so long is a stalling tactic........
Ah here dude, TL;DR
Got about half way then realised how much more there was and just thought, no offence intended here, you need to try learn 2 things, how not to be condescending and more importantly how to summarise effectively....
after all this is the thread for those who HAVE READ the books0 -
Simone Howling Topographer is correct. You might use some of your knowledge of narrative structure in your posts. :rolleyes:Disposable1 wrote: »No, Daenerys’ purpose in Essos is to gather an army/support with the end goal of returning to Westeros and taking her “birthright”. The fact that she stayed in Essos so long is a stalling tactic. This is the point I am making. Daenerys could not return to Westeros sooner for thematic reasons but more importantly for me, because the rules of narrative structure. Daenerys simply could not travel to Westeros until the final act, which we are in now. So, GRRM and the show runners had to give her something to do until it is narratively suitable for her to travel to Westeros
Here's one massive hole in your logic. Yes she could have come to Westeros earlier, but with baby dragons and no Dothraki or unsullied would have not only lost any war; she'd have no base in Dragonstone because, y'know Stannis, and because there are no slaves in Westeros to rise up against their masters, no chance of raiaing even a ragtag army. Viserys 2.0 I suspect.
Love the condescension though.
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The acting was incredibly hammy this episode. Jon in the hall sounded like someone struggling to remember his lines or something. The character motivations are all over the place too. Retconning Varys' to be this white knight of the realm feels very tacked on.
Deaths these days mean nothing as they are being rushed and done for convenience over any kind of reason to push the narrative.
No cure for greyscale? Pull off the skin and put some cream on. Never mind that the tiniest bit of pus or blood would infect Sam.
Missandei and Grey Worm is outrageous considering what's been left out and rushed both this season so far and in the past.
A lot of other bad things but on the good side the scene with the dragon skull and the battle at the end looked really great even if the choreography was a bit lacking in the battle.
I like how Littlefinger has been an observer for the last while, thought Jon was going to tell him that he knows what happened with Ned but probably a bit early for that.
I also didn't think the passage of time could take on a more convenient role for the narrative but I've accepted that as being contradictory to what they've said as recently as the last episode
. 1,000 miles between KL and Winterfell? Arya will be there next episode no doubt unless she runs into the brotherhood first. 0 -
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I also didn't think the passage of time could take on a more convenient role for the narrative but I've accepted that as being contradictory to what they've said as recently as the last episode. 1,000 miles between KL and Winterfell? Arya will be there next episode no doubt unless she runs into the brotherhood first.
How many episodes odd it take Robert to get there in season 1?0 -
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Ahem. Arya headed north after her conversation with Hot Pie. You could tell this when she left the inn; everyone was heading in one direction and she turned her horse and headed in the other. Just in case you missed that, you could see snow in the direction she was heading and no snow in the other one.The acting was incredibly hammy this episode. Jon in the hall sounded like someone struggling to remember his lines or something. The character motivations are all over the place too. Retconning Varys' to be this white knight of the realm feels very tacked on.
Deaths these days mean nothing as they are being rushed and done for convenience over any kind of reason to push the narrative.
No cure for greyscale? Pull off the skin and put some cream on. Never mind that the tiniest bit of pus or blood would infect Sam.
Missandei and Grey Worm is outrageous considering what's been left out and rushed both this season so far and in the past.
A lot of other bad things but on the good side the scene with the dragon skull and the battle at the end looked really great even if the choreography was a bit lacking in the battle.
I like how Littlefinger has been an observer for the last while, thought Jon was going to tell him that he knows what happened with Ned but probably a bit early for that.
I also didn't think the passage of time could take on a more convenient role for the narrative but I've accepted that as being contradictory to what they've said as recently as the last episode. 1,000 miles between KL and Winterfell? Arya will be there next episode no doubt unless she runs into the brotherhood first.
A bit heavy handed I thought, but then again...
I thought it was pretty clear from the books that Varys was for the people and not the nobility. All his 'little birds' were street urchins and the like.
I like the 'just pull off the skin' bit. Jorah would like to have a word with you on that 'just' business. 0 -
CMOTDibbler wrote: »Ahem. Arya headed north after her conversation with Hot Pie. You could tell this when she left the inn; everyone was heading in one direction and she turned her horse and headed in the other. Just in case you missed that, you could see snow in the direction she was heading and no snow in the other one.
A bit heavy handed I thought, but then again...
I thought it was pretty clear from the books that Varys was for the people and not the nobility. All his 'little birds' were street urchins and the like.
I like the 'just pull off the skin' bit. Jorah would like to have a word with you on that 'just' business.
Varys is for Aegon and that was clearly the plan early in the show until they decided that they couldn't fit Aegon.
I know why Arya headed north. Just there's no travel time or indication of where she is during the wolf scene. Just north, as if it's not the biggest area in Westeros. The scene with the wolves was a bit weird too. If there were references to wolf dreams in the episodes leading up to it or something maybe but just out of the blue after 6 seasons? The rushed loose end wrap up continues.0 -
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RobbingBandit wrote: »Still to watch this probably won't be until tonight don't think I haven't wanted to post I have but only after watching it.
Thanks for letting us know. 0 -
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podgemonster wrote: »She was clearly at the Inn at the Crossroads on the Kings Road in the previous scene so she's north of that and south of Winterfell. Unless you want Arya to monologue about how many days she's been travelling and her ETA to Winterfell or perhaps and a shot of her passing a road sign saying "Winterfell - 150 km" that will have to suffice and I think most people are fine with that.
This is the furthest North Arya has been since Season 1, it takes several days to reach WF and we see she encounters her wolf, makes sense. No need for filler wolf dreams.
Am i wrong in reading the wolf/Arya scene that Arya is going to follow Nymeria's lead and stick on mission, rather than rejoining her family.
The parallels between Nymeria going off without a human companion and Arya heading off without proper adult supervision for assassin training are strong, IMO.
And Nymeria rejected the offer to go to Arya, so maybe Arya realises heading home to her family before her mission is completed isnt the best thing to do.
I thought i saw a look of realisation on Arya's face after the Nymeria meetup.0 -
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The look on her face relates back to series one when Ned said she'd grow up to be a lady with fine clothes and Arya said "that's not me". The same for Nymeria. Being a 'pet' direwolf is not her any more and Arya recognises that. As well as which, Nymeria now has her own 'family'.Am i wrong in reading the wolf/Arya scene that Arya is going to follow Nymeria's lead and stick on mission, rather than rejoining her family.
The parallels between Nymeria going off without a human companion and Arya heading off without proper adult supervision for assassin training are strong, IMO.
And Nymeria rejected the offer to go to Arya, so maybe Arya realises heading home to her family before her mission is completed isnt the best thing to do.
I thought i saw a look of realisation on Arya's face after the Nymeria meetup.0 -
Am i wrong in reading the wolf/Arya scene that Arya is going to follow Nymeria's lead and stick on mission, rather than rejoining her family.
The parallels between Nymeria going off without a human companion and Arya heading off without proper adult supervision for assassin training are strong, IMO.
And Nymeria rejected the offer to go to Arya, so maybe Arya realises heading home to her family before her mission is completed isnt the best thing to do.
I thought i saw a look of realisation on Arya's face after the Nymeria meetup.
My interpretation was that Nymeria rejected to be Arya's pet/sidekick like Ghost and Summer were. That is what is expected of a Stark Direwolf, in the same way it was expected for Ayra to be a lady of the court. When Ned tells her in season 1 she may be a lady of a castle one day, Arya replies...
"No, that's not me" Arya - Season 1
In the scene with Nymeria, Arya realises that Nymeria like her is different and because they are both different they are perfect for each other, two undomesticated survivors.
"No, that's not you" Arya - Season 70 -
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