Season 7 Episode 2 "Stormborn" - "Book readers"

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I can't remember, did she? If so, she had plenty of time to learn by that stage. Regardless, surely at the beginning of the series, Jorah was teaching her and translating, no?

She was certainly fluent in it. But Missandei was a scribe/translator before Dany took her on, so she would probably be more versed in the nuances of the language.

denismc

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

A lot of people are complaining about it being very dark and hard to see at times. I wonder is that to do with the time of year we're watching it now. I mean it's not full dark until almost ten and the show airs at nine when it's still fairly bright.

I know I've been watching it early in the morning and have then watched it again later at night and it's a massive difference.

I think why the battle seen was shot in the dark was simply to reduce costs.
To do the same scene in daylight would require much large sets with more ships or CGI. The dark, smoke and shaky cameras hide the fact that the ships were little more than a few pallets thrown together.

The same can be said for dragonstone, you can leave out a lot of detail by showing the castle at night.

RobbingBandit

Nymeria found her pack, when Arya chased her away in season 1 she was a lone wolf just like Arya, now she leads a pack of wolves throughout the river lands so she isn't a lone wolf any more, Arya still is or at least will be until she is reunited with her pack/siblings. I just can't help myself stayed away all day yesterday so did I miss much?

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lawred2

well at least Missandei wasn't shot in the dark

Baggly

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Nymeria found her pack, when Arya chased her away in season 1 she was a lone wolf just like Arya, now she leads a pack of wolves throughout the river lands so she isn't a lone wolf any more, Arya still is or at least will be until she is reunited with her pack/siblings. I just can't help myself stayed away all day yesterday so did I miss much?

I dont disagree that is one read on it, but i can also read it that Nymeria chose not to rejoin Arya to stay true to who she is now, and that Arya is going to do the same and keep focused on shortening her list, after having a loss of focus at the thought of seeing Jon.

Will wait and see - ill probably be corrected on it in the next episode we see Arya in

OneOfThem Stumbled

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

• Couple of sand snakes bought it. Always a good thing

Ollie ollie ollie? Oi oi oi.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Not so "Yay"

• Dragon Crossbow.

The fact that they're developing technology to counter the dragons is good, but like the slavers that fought Danaeris previously who had catapults, actually hitting a dragon will be difficult. Hitting a dragon that is flying fast is simply not possible. I'm guessing that's going to be ignored or bypassed somehow.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

• Westeros Instant Messaging is getting even MORE instant. Silly at this stage.

A raven flying in good conditions non-stop could do it in three days (500 miles a day). Clearly it couldn't be non-stop, so week-10 days minimum seems okay. Still pretty fast. Jon Snow turning up in dragonstone next episode will be a different matter though, but God, I'm willing to forgive it to advance the plot.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Eurons american accent is really odd.

And his American dentist.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Overall, it seems like they are belting through it very quickly - not in the intricate slow build way that made the first seasons good. If you were to sit down and watch season 1 or 2 again and then the first two episodes of season 7, youd see how dramatically they have changed the pace. Kinda like they want to close off so many things at once.

Don't encourage them! We'd only get more Sand snakes exploits, Unsullied sex, or Citadel chamber pot emptying!

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sam at the citadel is really bad. Poor tv effect of cutting from chamberpot to food and the fighting against the hierachy of the citadel is boring frankly. Sam is too well established a character now and theyve little time so it all seems very redundant. The opposite to the sudden closing of other plot lines, this seems to be trying to do a bit too much and very slowly.

Swap out castle black for citadel. Rinse and repeat.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

We need to see the white walkers actually attacking because now its shaping up to be "big civil war in westeros but winners easily swat back undead hordes by working together" type story which isnt really balanced. More like a song of fire and an ice cube.

White walkers are expensive though. Show-makers must construct additional pylons.

theteal wrote: »

Am I the only one who's convinced they're setting it up for Theon to grow some metaphorical bits and come back to save the day?

Well I don't know, Stannis seems pretty bent on executing him, and saving his sister from the... I've got my timelines mixed up again.

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leggo

Sorry, only catching up on the discussion now, had to watch it twice yesterday.

Disposable1 wrote: »

Same with the grayscale, it's portrayed as some incurable, highly contagious pestilence, but all you do to cure it is cut off the infected areas. Cop out. I know there are concoctions and salves on the trolley nut Sam says they're for the wounds not the disease.

Disagree. I mean, there are little, forgivable flaws in what's happening (e.g. Sam and the archmaester not being completely covered up while hanging out beside an incredibly infected diseased man they don't know who could just turn on them at any second), but in terms of what you're criticising...that's still how science works today. The maesters probably realise that the person who came up with that theory had a point, but then had an incredibly low rate of success and died of greyscale himself, so the cure is obviously somewhat flawed and thus, sadly, it's not worth them risking themselves to try and save one person who's too far gone. I can absolutely accept that excuse. I'm sure there are people out there today who've got the beginning of a theory in how we'll end up curing cancer, but they're not far along enough yet, so it's not as if you can roll it out in every hospital and start selling it as such. And sadly millions will have to die until it comes further along. Science is a constantly incomplete study.

Disposable1 wrote: »

I am not claiming to be an expert but because of my background I can often see the mechanisms at work in a piece of writing or in a film. It seems you can not.

I'm sorry and I'm not having a go, but I was reading your posts like, "It's like he's a film student who's just learned how to apply what he's learned to practical stuff and is nitpicking so he can show off what he knows now..." and then you feed everyone this line.

I mean, what you're saying isn't wrong, it's just that if you go back among the archives of fictional narrative with a red pen, you'll find that most stories can have this criticism applied to it. In a world where most narratives follow three-act structure...yes, the resolution waits until the end of act two (what we're approaching in the overall Game Of Thrones arc now). That's how stories work.

So, to make a criticism of this, the question is: "Is it acceptable what they've done to get that person from A to B over this length of time?" And to do that you have to take a step back and look at where the person was to where they are now and whether that would be realistic.

Dany was less than nothing at the start of the show. Illyrio was her and Viserys' only outright supporter (as punctuated in this episode by her questioning Varys who, despite not thinking Robert was fit to rule and perhaps favouring a second coming of the Targaeryans, had to organise her attempted murder to survive; showing that even potential supporters had to lurk in the shadows because she was such dirt at the time) and, even then, Dany was just a pawn to help Viserys' claim. As well as travelling largely in secret (in the early days), she's had to build a following, an army, learn about the world she wishes to conquer, inspire the public, raise her dragons and learn to command them, learn to rule instead of conquer, figure out what she stood for and how to enforce that...and all of that is assuming she doesn't suffer any setbacks, which she has. That absolutely would take years, if not being unlikely/impossible. In fact when you look at it from that perspective, you could argue the show somewhat rushed her along.

I'm not saying that her story hasn't at times been a slog, it has, but is it realistic how long it has taken? Yes, absolutely. Is it an acceptable character trait that, having stayed for a time in Meereen because she didn't want her 'breaker of chains' moniker to be merely symbolic, she pauses and considers her next move rather than storms the capital and lays waste to the common folk out of mere impatience? Yes. That is, in fact, exactly what we've come to understand Dany would do.

2ndcoming wrote: »

Ellaria and Tiene aren't hostages lads, they poisoned Myrcella and the next episode is called The Queen's Justice...

When you consider that Ellaria murdered Cersei's daughter and Cersei now has her daughter, I'm expecting my retching next week will be reserved for the scenes of Cersei torturing Tyene in front of Ellaria as opposed to Oldtown as it has been the past couple of weeks.

Liam O wrote: »

Missandei and Grey Worm is outrageous considering what's been left out and rushed both this season so far and in the past.

Not untrue, but if Greyworm was to die next week in the Battle For Casterly Rock, that scene would take on a lot more significance...

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The look on her face relates back to series one when Ned said she'd grow up to be a lady with fine clothes and Arya said "that's not me". The same for Nymeria. Being a 'pet' direwolf is not her any more and Arya recognises that. As well as which, Nymeria now has her own 'family'.

I think anyone reading that scene with any kind of assuredness is setting themselves up for a fall, it was deliberately vague and open for interpretation.

My reading of it, considering that it followed the Arya/Hot Pie scene that left me worried for Arya's fate as she seems to have unintentionally lost herself in her thirst for vengeance (she is 'no one' now whether she wanted to be or not; even Jaqen noted as much when she left Braavos), was that Nymeria just didn't recognise Arya. I didn't cop the significance of the "That's not you" line and, in hindsight, it absolutely could've been a callback to what she said in season one. But was that Arya making excuses in her own head for Nymeria not following her, because she doesn't realise that she's lost herself?

At the start of the season, I had Arya returning to Winterfell and being the one to kill Littlefinger. After this episode I'm not even sure she's going to make it there. Was the Ed Sheeran scene a farewell gift from Beinoff and Weiss?

TheIrishGrover

J. Marston wrote: »

This regarding ravens? I see this complaint a lot around the internet.

I'd love to know what the people complaining consider an acceptable amount of time for a bird to be in transit. 3-4 episodes?

Yeah, I get what you're saying: where do you draw the line between progressing the story and being realistic (in a show with ice zombies and dragons ) regarding information being spread.

I just think, yeah, it should be two episodes to get the info. I mean there's no "Will the info get there in time?" tension.

I mean, you have Jon going: Right, I have a letter from Sam saying Dragonstone is built on dragon glass (Go figure). I have another mail from Dany telling me come for an auld chat. I also have last night's Lotto numbers from Kings Landing and the results of Oldtown v Fleabottom United if anyone wants it (But have heard nothing about Bran being back at Castle Black for some reason even though they are closer, the b*stards)

lawred2

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Yeah, I get what you're saying: where do you draw the line between progressing the story and being realistic (in a show with ice zombies and dragons ) regarding information being spread.

I just think, yeah, it should be two episodes to get the info. I mean there's no "Will the info get there in time?" tension.

I mean, you have Jon going: Right, I have a letter from Sam saying Dragonstone is built on dragon glass (Go figure). I have another mail from Dany telling me come for an auld chat. I also have last night's Lotto numbers from Kings Landing and the results of Oldtown v Fleabottom United if anyone wants it (But have heard nothing about Bran being back at Castle Black for some reason even though they are closer, the b*stards)

But the scenes are not necessarily played out in time order

Daith

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Yes it is but she still needed someone to teach her the language? Not like she was born with that knowledge or 100% fluency.

Dial Hard

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

A lot of people are complaining about it being very dark and hard to see at times. I wonder is that to do with the time of year we're watching it now. I mean it's not full dark until almost ten and the show airs at nine when it's still fairly bright.

I know I've been watching it early in the morning and have then watched it again later at night and it's a massive difference.

I'm sure most people have the sense to close the curtains if the room is too bright while they're watching...

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Daith

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Yes I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that doesn't equal 100% fluency.

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AryaStark

amos13 wrote: »

Have we just had the first hint that Azor Ahai and the prince that was promised are two different people? Mel telling Dany that she has a role to play as does another?

We have no indication yet that Bran will head to Winterfell, but I'm surprised that a raven hasn't even arrived from CB to inform Jon of his existence. Considering ravens were sent and received during the course of this episode and CB is closer.

Nymeria is fecking HUGE. That's what I expected direwolves to be like, ghost is a scrawny yoke altogether.

Good episode, but I must ask, why did the ironborn bring the sand sisters to Dorne? In the closing scene of season 6, they had their own ships. This episode seemed to infer they didn't?

I had forgotten that Ghost was the runt of the litter until I seen Nymeria again.

CMOTDibbler

Daith wrote: »

Yes I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that doesn't equal 100% fluency.

Lots of people around here are fluent in the English language. Or so it's assumed...

duploelabs

....... wrote: »

Did she not learn it in childhood in Illyrios house? With Viserys?

The term "mother tongue" is normally used to mean the first language one learns, so I assumed she learned it long before we ever met her.

There are many posters on boards, who'd consider English their mother tongue but wouldn't know the difference between they're, there, and their, or you're and your

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Daith

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It seemed obscure enough for everyone from the text. Perhaps there's two different words for "Prince". Or one specific to the prophecy.

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years."

In any case I'm ok with Missandei doing something that doesn't involve Grey Worm!

TheIrishGrover

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Where did you get the connection between Varys and a desire to fight the Walkers/Others? Has there been any connection between them in the books?!

Ah, that's just how I read it in the books: That Varys and Littlefinger believed in The Walkers, that they knew they were coming this winter and wanted a stong person on the throne. Robert was uninterested and too weak, Joffery was too vicious and petty and nobody else believed in The Walkers.
I read it as they didn't believe in Dany's dragons at first but when they saw her with the Dothraki they started to take notice. Then, as rumours solidified about her dragons and they saw her conquests they took real notice.
I don't think they went: "Hey, wait a sec. This book series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. I wonder if there is a hint there?". No, Dragons or no, I think they just saw Dany as a powerful leader and they best chance for a leader strong enough for the upcoming real war.
Of course then the last chapter of ADWD seemed to suggest that Varys was a loyalist all along.

Oh, and that was another thing in the "Non-Yay" category: I loved the Hot Pie scene but the bit where he says "The Battle of The Bastards" was very jarring. I almost expected him to say "Y'know? Episode 9 last year? Did you see it? It was awesome"

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TheIrishGrover

duploelabs wrote: »

There are many posters on boards, who'd consider English their mother tongue but wouldn't know the difference between they're, there, and their, or you're and your

Calm down now: They're there their........:)

Daith

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Yes. The show can be so predictable in some ways.

"What's your weakness"
"Nothing"
"Oh it's Missandei"

Oh

WinnyThePoo

I though I saw the tip of greyworms 'thing' when I watched the scene. Could be wrong.

rawn

leggo wrote:

Disagree. I mean, there are little, forgivable flaws in what's happening (e.g. Sam and the archmaester not being completely covered up while hanging out beside an incredibly infected diseased man they don't know who could just turn on them at any second), but in terms of what you're criticising...that's still how science works today. The maesters probably realise that the person who came up with that theory had a point, but then had an incredibly low rate of success and died of greyscale himself, so the cure is obviously somewhat flawed and thus, sadly, it's not worth them risking themselves to try and save one person who's too far gone. I can absolutely accept that excuse. I'm sure there are people out there today who've got the beginning of a theory in how we'll end up curing cancer, but they're not far along enough yet, so it's not as if you can roll it out in every hospital and start selling it as such. And sadly millions will have to die until it comes further along. Science is a constantly incomplete study.

I don't think removing the gray scale and applying the salve is the cure, i assumed it was step one to remove the festering skin and stop the wounds from getting infected. Step 2 - Dragonglass?

CMOTDibbler

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Oh dear!

They're and Their being confused is full on 100% grammatical. They are completely different and their usage is important.

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leggo

rawn wrote: »

I don't think removing the gray scale and applying the salve is the cure, i assumed it was step one to remove the festering skin and stop the wounds from getting infected. Step 2 - Dragonglass?

Yeah, definitely that wasn't the full procedure, I think they just wanted to gross us out a bit and the rest will happen off-screen. And I'm completely okay with that. :eek:

CMOTDibbler

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The best example I can think of in the context is the word 'heir'. The word 'heiress' is often used, but not in the context of 'heir to the throne' as that context already identifies who that is and can be gender neutral.

So 'prince' could be identified as meaning male when used in the context of describing a male heir. The assumption could be made that it refers only to a male heir and not both.

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CMOTDibbler

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My point was that 'heir' can be gender neutral. I was giving it as an example for the word 'prince/princess' in High Valyrian.

Cookiemunster

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You're not imagining it. Winter has come, so they've purposely made everything darker in the show. The reason we had to wait until July this year is so that they could film scenes during the actual real world winter.

However that the sea battle was definitely a night scene to save money.

RobbingBandit

Jesus Theon, Reek Reek it rhymes with Meek all over again, yus yus yus Tyrion lives to fight another day. Jorah didn't react too much to the news of his fathers death. Can't remember if he'd found out before this scene. Jamie and Randall Tarley scene was bone chilling. So long sand snakes said no one.

rawn

RobbingBandit wrote:

Jesus Theon, Reek Reek it rhymes with Meek all over again, yus yus yus Tyrion lives to fight another day. Jorah didn't react too much to the news of his fathers death. Can't remember if he'd found out before this scene. Jamie and Randall Tarley scene was bone chilling. So long sand snakes said no one.

Jorah knew. Tyrion told him about 2 seasons ago, he assumed he knew already.

RobbingBandit

Yeah you're right couldn't remember exactly when, the books were different, Queens Justice title might be Olena making one last stand. Queen of Thrones. Rickon no its Dickon, Ser. Jamie is still gold on screen.

mcgiggles

WinnyThePoo wrote:

I though I saw the tip of greyworms 'thing' when I watched the scene. Could be wrong.

I googled it cos myself and himself didn't remember if it was the meat and 2 veg taken off or just the 2 veg. Both of us were thinking "how would he pee?" Lol...

Savage Tyrant

mcgiggles wrote: »

I googled it cos myself and himself didn't remember if it was the meat and 2 veg taken off or just the 2 veg. Both of us were thinking "how would he pee?" Lol...

They get rid of the spuds. But the sausage stays. Unless Ramsay Bolton performed the procedure.

eeguy

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

They get rid of the spuds. But the sausage stays. Unless Ramsay Bolton performed the procedure.

So he could hold it up with a splint?

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Baggly

Is this pertinent and/or provable?

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Baggly

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They had sex anyway. We just dont know it was penetrative sex. And we probably never will.

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Loafing Oaf

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

They get rid of the spuds. But the sausage stays.

But that would spoil Bronn's joke about having a bigger cock than anyone in the unsullied army.:P

Danjamin1

Only halfway through the episode so far so I suppose I should reserve judgment but this episode is reaffirming my opinion that the writing has gone to the dogs since the show went ahead. It's still visually excellent but the dialogue sounds very laboured and things either feel like they're being resolved very conveniently or things aren't making sense. Sams suddenly found the cure for greyscale even though the maesters have had this knowledge all along? Don't buy it.