Dating BSA shotgun

JohnOrrett

Hi all, this is my first post so please be gentle with me. I'm sure this question regarding model years has been asked dozens of times by now.

My wife and I were visiting her relatives in Ireland recently, and her cousin has a BSA shotgun which was owned by her grandfather or possibly even her great grandfather. They were both a gamekeeper on a big Estate house in County Kerry. I have taken a load of pictures to try and identify it. From the proof mark which has BP below a shield, it appears to be an 1854 onward model. The barrels have Jessops fluid pressed steel stamped on them. It also has:

12C in a diamond

BV below a crown

BP below a crown

NP below a crown

Nitro Proof 1 1/8

Serial number 22714

Made by BSA guns Ltd England on the barrels

There are engravings on each side of the guns with a flying duck.

Any help gratefully appreciated in dating it.

Thanks, John

Gravelly

I thought this was going to be an agony aunt type post about a man's forbidden love for his shotgun.

cookimonster

No authority by any means, I only jump in due to research done on a BSA centre fire recently. Unfortunately my avenues of search only covered the BSA rifles but I did find this nugget of info.......
'1&1/8 oz load equates to 2&1/2 inch chambers . 1&1/4oz would be 2&3/4"
( http://forums.shootinguk.co.uk/showthread.php?4737-BSA-shotgun-identification-amp-information#jqFTiRrJ4B0Dk91G.99i)

I recently did some research on a French gun I have and as soon as I get the links back up I'll post them for you. This deals with proof house symbols from around Europe.

If you read the posts in the above link it is commented on that a lot of the markings are factory stamps with no meaning other then to the workshop of the time / location.

Best of luck with your search and I'll try to get thoses links up.

gunny123

I had a BSA side by side for years and found it a great gun. Your gun probably isn't as old as you would assume, i believe they were made between 1920-1939. John Knibbs in the uk has the record books and he may be able to tell you when exactly the gun was made.

tac foley

This post was in response to an inquiry about two BSA shotguns with vastly differing serial numbers -

'Despite the vast difference in numbers, your two BSA shotguns were despatched from the factory at Small Heath, Birmingham, only two weeks apart!

No.37473 was despatched on on July 30, 1923 and the other on August 13, 1923.

The serial numbers of BSA shotguns bear no relationship to their date of despatch.

I own and use a matched pair with a difference of 275 between their serial numbers, even though both guns were finished and despatched on the same day, also in 1923.

The BSA shotgun was introduced in 1920 and, over the next 19 years, more than 48,000 were built in eight different models of 12-bore.

Some 40,000 were sold in the first five years of production.

Read more at http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/are-you-able-to-date-my-bsa-shotguns-8215#CLd2Gj5urqODjAJU.99'

Hope this helps until Mr Knibbs comes along.

As an aside, I have two BSA Martini MkII target rifles - a left and a right-hand action version. The rifle with the 'older' three-figure serial number was put out to trade seven years after the four-figure rifle. To say that BSA serial numbers were a trifle confusing doesn't even begin to explain the total c*ck-up of the documentation.

tac

gunny123

I think BSA were the same as Webley, they would machine up a large amount of parts and store them, only making up the gun when an order came in. Webley did this with their single shot target pistols, they were all machined in 1909, and when someone ordered one, Bert or Alf in the stores would go and collect one of each of the parts in a box and a gunsmith would assemble it. Not exactly "Kan-Ban" or "Just in time".

tac foley

'zackly, and that explains why barrels and actions have different serial numbers that bear no relationship to each other.

tac

tac foley

@OP - as this gun was Birmingham-proofed, can you identify for us the cypher stamps? They look like crossed swords [actually sceptres], and will have a letter in the space at the top. They will be located on the water table - the flat bit of the action visible when you open the gun, and also on the underside of both barrels.

The letters are A through V from July 1st, 1921, every year until 1941. Production of civilian proofs was stopped during the rest of the war to take up the vast military production, and civilian proofing recommenced in 1950 with the letters A B - one on each side of the crossed sceptres.

A X B

The little number in the lower middle is the actual inspector who carried out the 'view', 1 being the most senior, down to whatever in seniority.

tac

tac foley

FYI - Serial number prefixes for some BSA shotguns -

YA Single Twelve Shotgun 2 & 3/4" Chamber X 30" Barrels 1950 - 1962
YB Single Twelve Shotgun 3" X 30" 1950 - 1962
YC Single Twelve Shotgun 3" X 32" 1950 - 1962
YD Snipe Shotgun 2 3/4" 1962 - 1973
YE Snipe Shotgun 3" 1962 - 1973

tac

JohnOrrett

Thanks for the help so far, much appreciated. I am having trouble posting web links so have condensed the reply. There are no crossed swords on this gun, nor letters as far as I could see. That as far as I can tell predates 1921 when they started lettering them. The BP under the crown is in script writing, and from this site states that it is a provisional proof dated from 1855 onwards. Both parts of the gun carry the same serial number, 22714. 
The gun looks similar to the picture on page 2 of a post from Feb 2014 entitled Shotgun Identification (BSA)  
Regards, John

gunny123

cookimonster

The lads covered a good bit, but here's a bit more if you haven't already come across it-

http://www.gunproof.com/Proofing/proofing.html

International proof marks-

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj7gsD0upHVAhWLvxQKHXxBDoMQFghXMAs&usg=AFQjCNHbIm867QXPTxYcO0e8vck9zePTvw

tac foley

JohnOrrett wrote: »

Thanks for the help so far, much appreciated. I am having trouble posting web links so have condensed the reply. There are no crossed swords on this gun, nor letters as far as I could see. That as far as I can tell predates 1921 when they started lettering them. The BP under the crown is in script writing, and from this site states that it is a provisional proof dated from 1855 onwards. Both parts of the gun carry the same serial number, 22714. 
The gun looks similar to the picture on page 2 of a post from Feb 2014 entitled Shotgun Identification (BSA)  
Regards, John

ALL firearms made and sold in the UK are required by law to bear proof marks - you have already told us about some of them. The others, by law, MUST be there somewhere on the gun.

The gun is nitro-proofed - that alone dates it into the 20th century where shotguns are concerned.

The are no muzzle-loading nitro guns, so the gun must break like any other cartridge-firing shotgun does, another dateable feature.

We really need to be able to access your images - I, for one, can't get into the archives on this site and check out your comment.

tac

tac foley

This thread from a US-based site might be of some use - http://forums.shootinguk.co.uk/showthread.php?2899-Help-finding-the-my-BSA-12-Bore-Double-was-made/page1 and
http://forums.shootinguk.co.uk/showthread.php?2899-Help-finding-the-my-BSA-12-Bore-Double-was-made/page2

I hope that we have made as plain as we can that your gun was not a product of the late 19thC, but probably dates from the inter-war years of the last century.

Whinemeal, I have emole Mr Knibbs and asked him to help us out.

tac

JohnOrrett

Thanks a million for all of the fantastic help so far. Looking at the proof image above, all the marks are there in the 1925-1954 Birmingham Proof House line. There is also a number 12 which I did not mention; again this ties in with that date range.
I will gladly upload a couple of pictures. 

OK, I seem to be having problems either putting a hyperlink in or adding pictures. They show up when I add them but when I post, I get an error message. Apologies.

tac foley

JohnOrrett wrote: »

Thanks a million for all of the fantastic help so far. Looking at the proof image above, all the marks are there in the 1925-1954 Birmingham Proof House line. There is also a number 12 which I did not mention; again this ties in with that date range.
I will gladly upload a couple of pictures. 

OK, I seem to be having problems either putting a hyperlink in or adding pictures. They show up when I add them but when I post, I get an error message. Apologies.

Dinnae fash yersel' aboot the inability to post images. In spite of all the help I've had over the years from Cass and others, I STILL can't do it. My local IT maven tells me that it might be a function of my non-Windows OS PC, but I can do it without any hassle on many other fora.

tac

Captainaxiom

You cannot post images and links because you dont have enough posts. Can't remember if it's 25 or 50.

JohnOrrett

Ah thank you very much, that explains it. I thought I was an idiot (don't ask my wife, she may confirm that!)