Stormont power sharing talks

Irishweather

I have a copy of the 1659 Penders Census for County Londonderry, but I don't want to post it because it is copyrighted.

Basically most areas in the county are 50/50 or 70/30, English/Scottish to Irish.

1. Londonderry City: 54% English/Scottish, 46% Irish.
2. Londonderry NE Liberties: 62% English/Scottish, 38% Irish.
3. Coleraine: 70% English/Scottish, 30% Irish.
4. Newton Limavady: 60% English/Scottish, 40% Irish.

Those are the main population centres.

Professor Moriarty

Irishweather wrote: »

I have a copy of the 1659 Penders Census for County Londonderry, but I don't want to post it because it is copyrighted.

Basically most areas in the county are 50/50 or 70/30, English/Scottish to Irish.

1. Londonderry City: 54% English/Scottish, 46% Irish.
2. Londonderry NE Liberties: 62% English/Scottish, 38% Irish.
3. Coleraine: 70% English/Scottish, 30% Irish.
4. Newton Limavady: 60% English/Scottish, 40% Irish.

Those are the main population centres.

Yeah, but they are a selection. Would you have any data for Ulster in the 1600s for instance, please?

Irishweather

What? I was specifically discussing my area.

I can look up Northern Ireland for you, I don't expect to find anything compressive.My county has quite good census records so the other counties probably won't be as fruitful.

Professor Moriarty

Irishweather wrote: »

What? I was specifically discussing my area.

I can look up Northern Ireland for you, I don't expect to find anything compressive.My county has quite good census records so the other counties probably won't be as fruitful.

Well, 'your area' could mean a parish or the whole island. NI didn't exist in the 1600s.

Irishweather

County Londonderry/Derry. As we are talking about Northern Ireland and the Irish language here, I would've thought that was fairly self explanatory.

Professor Moriarty

Irishweather wrote: »

County Londonderry/Derry. As we are talking about Northern Ireland and the Irish language here, I would've thought that was fairly self explanatory.

Ok. So you are saying that the population of Co. Derry contained more Planters than native Irish in the 1600s?

Irishweather

Um, i'm not certain if that is the case as the census only seems to include towns, i'm only pointing out that alot of areas do have more planters than Irish, hence the prevalence of the Irish language is probably limited at least here.

http://www.billmacafee.com/sperrins/backgroundpapers/popntyrone1600-1991.pdf

Professor Moriarty

Irishweather wrote: »

Um, i'm not certain if that is the case as the census only seems to include towns, i'm only pointing out that alot of areas do have more planters than Irish, hence the prevalence of the Irish language is probably limited at least here.

http://www.billmacafee.com/sperrins/backgroundpapers/popntyrone1600-1991.pdf

Your link is otherwise quite interesting but is (self-admittedly) very unclear as to actual percentages in Tyrone in the 1600s (the link makes no reference whatsoever regarding populations in Derry).

FrancieBrady

The debate shouldn't be about individual views on the Irish language, it should be about the requirements of those who identify as Irish being given rights that have already been agreed as part of an international agreement.
There has been two massive votes on the strategy of SF here and a massive amount of the electorate support them.
The question is, what are the two responsible governments going to do to ensure that the GFA Is progressed.

Irishweather

Shouldn't be given equal rights as English speakers though.

FrancieBrady

Irishweather wrote: »

Shouldn't be given equal rights as English speakers though.

They need to sit down trash out what an act would look like.

The need for an act to protect the native language in line with Scotland and Wales has been agreed.
The DUP petulance has to end.

Irishweather

What does that entail?

FrancieBrady

Irishweather wrote: »

What does that entail?

Google their (SDLP/SF) proposals. Broadly similar.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The DUP petulance has to end.

Irishweather wrote: »

What does that entail?

More stick and less carrot. The British and Irish governments should act in unison as co-guarantors of the GFA.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They need to sit down trash out what an act would look like.

The need for an act to protect the native language in line with Scotland and Wales has been agreed.
The DUP petulance has to end.

There is no agreement with the DUP on an Irish Languages Act.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no agreement with the DUP on an Irish Languages Act.

There is no agreement on the GFA with the DUP either. But they have been happy on the comfy seats implementing parts of it.
Time has run out on that comfy situation for them. One side made a leap of faith and the other made no leap and have dragged their heels since (wanna do the list?)

The crossroads has been reached.

Irishweather

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Google their (SDLP/SF) proposals. Broadly similar.

10% employment? Irish Road signs? Irish Courts?

No thanks!

FrancieBrady

Irishweather wrote: »

10% employment? Irish Road signs? Irish Courts?

No thanks!

There is no coercion there, you do not have to have Irish to function.

Why, no thanks?

blanch152

Irishweather wrote: »

10% employment? Irish Road signs? Irish Courts?

No thanks!

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no coercion there, you do not have to have Irish to function.

Why, no thanks?

That seems more than a little over the top given the figures we have seen quoted for the number of Irish speakers. Once again, when it comes to Northern Ireland, it is more about one of the sides winning against the other than a genuine attempt to deal with the issue, in this case, to promote the language.

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

According to the 2011 census, Irish was the main language of 0.238% of Northern Irish residents, while Ulster Scots was the main language of 0.004%. In other words, a grand total of 0.242% of the population of Northern Ireland speaks either as their primary language

Both the DUP and Sinn Fein should get their Language Act (or Acts) provided their assembly members agree to finance all the additional costs, including translation, signage, etc. out of their own pockets.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That seems more than a little over the top given the figures we have seen quoted for the number of Irish speakers. Once again, when it comes to Northern Ireland, it is more about one of the sides winning against the other than a genuine attempt to deal with the issue, in this case, to promote the language.

Those who are Irish wish to develop the language.
It isn't about 'winning'. You cannot force people to use Irish, that is just inanely silly. You can encourage and promote it though.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

That seems more than a little over the top given the figures we have seen quoted for the number of Irish speakers. Once again, when it comes to Northern Ireland, it is more about one of the sides winning against the other than a genuine attempt to deal with the issue, in this case, to promote the language.

Yeah. It's actually depressing to see someone argue that the revival of an important European language is interpreted as the other side winning.

Perhaps all nationalists should go over to the other side, relinquish their identity and embrace PUL culture fully. Yes, that's what they should do in the interests of harmony and unity. Right, all nationalists should immediately apply to join the Orange Order. Oh wait...

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. It's actually depressing to see someone argue that the revival of an important European language is interpreted as the other side winning.

Perhaps all nationalists should go over to the other side, relinquish their identity and embrace PUL culture fully. Yes, that's what they should do in the interests of harmony and unity. Right, all nationalists should immediately apply to join the Orange Order. Oh wait...

Never never never call out the blatant bigoted anti Irishness of the DUP on it's own. It is always the fault of the Irish or at best - when you cannot deny, or dilute the blatant bigotry of the DUP - both sides at fault.

Professor Moriarty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never never never call out the blatant bigoted anti Irishness of the DUP on it's own. It is always the fault of the Irish or at best - when you cannot deny, or dilute the blatant bigotry of the DUP - both sides at fault.

The times they are a-changin...

blanch152

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yeah. It's actually depressing to see someone argue that the revival of an important European language is interpreted as the other side winning.

Perhaps all nationalists should go over to the other side, relinquish their identity and embrace PUL culture fully. Yes, that's what they should do in the interests of harmony and unity. Right, all nationalists should immediately apply to join the Orange Order. Oh wait...

Again, nobody ever said that, so I don't know what argument you are refuting.

The important European language has already been revived in places where it never died out. It died out in Northern Ireland. As already demonstrated through links, Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.



P.S. The exact same arguments that you use could be made by those promoting Ulster Scots

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, nobody ever said that, so I don't know what argument you are refuting.

The important European language has already been revived in places where it never died out. It died out in Northern Ireland. As already demonstrated through links, Ulster Irish died in the 1970s.



P.S. The exact same arguments that you use could be made by those promoting Ulster Scots

Nope. It's a dialect, not a language. You might as well be trying to promote the Yorkshire dialect.

The EU confirmed Irish as an official language of the EU with all that goes with that designation. Therefore they have very different statuses. So you cannot make the same argument.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never never never call out the blatant bigoted anti Irishness of the DUP on it's own. It is always the fault of the Irish or at best - when you cannot deny, or dilute the blatant bigotry of the DUP - both sides at fault.

Unfortunately, despite the best efforts to paint many people on here as defenders of the DUP, that ignores the nuances of the views held by those perceived as being anti-nationalist (For myself, I am a constitutional nationalist that supports the aspiration of a united Ireland but not without significant buy-in from the unionist community).

I think there are a few things that I hope we all can agree on:

Nobody has defended the DUP position on same-sex marriage. Nobody has defended the burning of effigies and flags.

However, it would be true to say that there are some who continue to defend everything nationalist, no matter how bigoted, no matter how wrong. For example, there are people who see nothing wrong with Sinn Fein selling terrorist propaganda material on their website.

blanch152

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The EU confirmed Irish as an official language of the EU with all that goes with that designation. Therefore they have very different statuses. So you cannot make the same argument.

Does that mean we have to make Polish an official language of the South?

There are more native Polish speakers in the Republic than there are native Irish speakers in the North.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

Does that mean we have to make Polish an official language of the South?

There are more native Polish speakers in the Republic than there are native Irish speakers in the North.

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Lots of Polish children are learning Irish. In fact, some attend gaelscoileanna and play hurling and football. Perhaps they should apply to join the Orange Order?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Unfortunately, despite the best efforts to paint many people on here as defenders of the DUP, that ignores the nuances of the views held by those perceived as being anti-nationalist (For myself, I am a constitutional nationalist that supports the aspiration of a united Ireland but not without significant buy-in from the unionist community).

I think there are a few things that I hope we all can agree on:

Nobody has defended the DUP position on same-sex marriage. Nobody has defended the burning of effigies and flags.

However, it would be true to say that there are some who continue to defend everything nationalist, no matter how bigoted, no matter how wrong. For example, there are people who see nothing wrong with Sinn Fein selling terrorist propaganda material on their website.

We have been over this before, SF, and their supporters, simply do not see those who fought in the IRA as 'terrorists'.
Maggie Thatcher and people such as yourself can bandy that useless selective word about until the cows come home, but the reality is that is the way it is.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the badge just as nobody is forced to buy a poppy.


If you are a 'constitutional nationalist' where is you support for an already agreed deal on a language act and your condemnation of those who have brought down the executive by constantly blocking democratic rights available to every other citizen on these islands?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have been over this before, SF, and their supporters, simply do not see those who fought in the IRA as 'terrorists'.
Maggie Thatcher and people such as yourself can bandy that useless selective word about until the cows come home, but the reality is that is the way it is.

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy the badge just as nobody is forced to buy a poppy.

In the same way that you see nothing wrong with selling Belfast Brigade badges on the Sinn Fein website, there are Unionists who see nothing wrong with burning Irish flags.

The fact that both are offensive is obvious to the outsider.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you are a 'constitutional nationalist' where is you support for an already agreed deal on a language act and your condemnation of those who have brought down the executive by constantly blocking democratic rights available to every other citizen on these islands?

What do you mean by "democratic rights"? It is a mere sound-bite.

"Democratic rights" could mean the 8th Amendment or the Single Transferable Vote.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

In the same way that you see nothing wrong with selling Belfast Brigade badges on the Sinn Fein website, there are Unionists who see nothing wrong with burning Irish flags.

The fact that both are offensive is obvious to the outsider.

Get back to me when honouring your dead, celebrating your past is a crime.
Would you be similarly against the Para's or British army selling memorabilia?

As I said earlier I would be in favour of a ban on this kind of memorialising, but all sides in the conflict do it.

Burning flags in a provocative way, targeting people of colour, just because of their colour or because of their religion is wrong and in some cases against the law.

What do you mean by "democratic rights"? It is a mere sound-bite.

"Democratic rights" could mean the 8th Amendment or the Single Transferable Vote.

Democratically agreed rights are just a 'sound bite' to a 'constitutional nationalist' now?

A language act was agreed at St Andrew's, where is the constitutional nationalists condemnation of those who are blocking that?

*If SF cherrypicked and said they where not going to support the Police down the road from the Agreement, I fear our 'constitutional nationalist' would be having a fit about that.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Get back to me when honouring your dead, celebrating your past is a crime.

Never said that the selling of IRA memorabilia on the SF website was a crime.

However, it is the definition of sectarianism.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Never said that the selling of IRA memorabilia on the SF website was a crime.

However, it is the definition of sectarianism.

No it isn't
All sides will honour/commemorate their dead, and eulogise those who it is deemed achieced for them, tastefully and not so much so.
Arlene is still upset about the men and women if 1916 but will enthusiastically attend rituals celebrating the British army who have a controversial record on this island; no bother being seen with a loyalist paramilitary either.

If they were forcing somebody to wear or visit the website (I have never even seen these badges/t-shirts etc ) you might have a point.

But well done diverting away from the reason that the executive has collapsed...yet again.

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Exactly. The huge fear of 'normality' can be seen as the usual huge fear of letting anything perceived as being 'sponsored by SF' come to pass. And then we have ordinary common or garden religious fundamentalism blocking decent rights for everyone.
At least Paisley was honest about it in 2007.

blanch152

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Lots of Polish children are learning Irish. In fact, some attend gaelscoileanna and play hurling and football. Perhaps they should apply to join the Orange Order?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/call-for-polish-to-join-irish-and-english-as-official-languages-of-state-1.973986


I take it that you will support this campaign then. By the way, with more speakers, should it have a higher status than Irish?

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/call-for-polish-to-join-irish-and-english-as-official-languages-of-state-1.973986


I take it that you will support this campaign then. By the way, with more speakers, should it have a higher status than Irish?

An article about an article about a man's opinion in which he himself says it won't happen. It won't happen because it would require a referendum. And because many of his countrymen thinks it's silly and unnecessary. Oh and your link is from 2007.

So some randomer has a brainfart in 2007 which he himself immediately scuppers and it's a 'campaign'?

With respect, you should read articles before you link to them for support. It wasted my time.

blanch152

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

An article about an article about a man's opinion in which he himself says it won't happen. It won't happen because it would require a referendum. And because many of his countrymen thinks it's silly and unnecessary. Oh and your link is from 2007.

So some randomer has a brainfart in 2007 which he himself immediately scuppers and it's a 'campaign'?

With respect, you should read articles before you link to them for support. It wasted my time.

I am told every day about the inevitability of a lot of things that won't get through a referendum.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

I am told every day about the inevitability of a lot of things that won't get through a referendum.

Indeed. Apples and oranges though.

Junkyard Tom

The Polish thing is a red herring. Irish is the native langauge that predated the langauge of the invader/coloniser. If the Polish spoke Russian and were seeking a Polish Language act, in thier homeland, as recognition of the historic nature of their native langauge it would be comparable.

Irishweather

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language! Not Irish!

FrancieBrady

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language!

Nobody wishes to take that away from you or diminish it. We have had enough of the siege mentality tbh.

Junkyard Tom

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language! Not Irish!

English is the langauge you speak, it wasn't native to Ireland until Ireland was colonised. I'm talking about the historically native language not the language of the invader/coloniser.

Thomas__

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language! Not Irish!

English is the langauge you speak, it wasn't native to Ireland until Ireland was colonised. I'm talking about the historically native language not the language of the invader/coloniser.

Quite right and it´s really curious that the English managed to suppress the Irish language as well as the Scottish Gaelic. In some other colonies, they also forced English on the natives but couldn´t succeed to root it out in their minds and the use of the language. So, many of the former colonies of the BE are bilingual, which bears some advantages.

I have little to nearly very less knowledge of the Irish language, always it is the problem to know how written words are pronounced but when I listen to it, it is clear to me, from the sound of it that this is the real native language of the Irish. That´s because what one perceives as an accent in English it´s the native one that fits Irish. It´s similar to the Scots. Very distinguished from all the accents by native English speakers in England.

Thomas__

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Irishweather wrote: »

I'm a born and bred Northern Irishman, English is my native language!

Nobody wishes to take that away from you or diminish it. We have had enough of the siege mentality tbh.

This is the one thing you can´t get out of their heads and hearts of course. It is like some elementary credential in their mindset, collectively applying for many of the Prods. I have given up to debate about this matter with "Ulstermen" as they are too deep rooted in this mentality. When looking at the other community in NI, they might have more reasons to complain for what the minority with the siege complex has done to them, but one can see by many of the CNRs, that they are more progressive and may have overcome some injustice from the past, but that doesn´t means that they have forgotten anything at all. Just they don´t stick to this siege mentatily. That is some aspect which distinguishes those two communities.

I´ve come across various NI Posters who regret it that they couldn´t learn Irish in School cos it was never on the curriculum and everybody knows why. Needless to say that they are of Republican background. On the other Hand, I have come across various posters from the Republic of Ireland who often stated that they have no interest in Irish at all and that they had to learn it in School because it was on the curriculum but don´t use it in their daily life anyway. Some of them were even a bit hostile towards TG4 for which I never had any understanding anyway. I think that it is good that the Irish State is maintaining the teaching of Irish and thus a part of Irish culture which is at the core of the whole Islands history. But let´s be honest, people use that language they are used to it in their daily life.

I´m currently reading the book "Ireland´s Invasion of the World, The Irish diaspora in a nutshell " by Miki Garcia. An interesting reading and although there are passages one knows anyway when one is familiar with Irish history, it was really interesting to learn how many words used in the English language originate and derive from the Irish language. He listed some of them, making a couple of lines in that book.

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Does that mean we have to make Polish an official language of the South?

There are more native Polish speakers in the Republic than there are native Irish speakers in the North.

If that's what Polish people want then of course it should be recognised. Its status should be in alignment with the number of people who want to learn it, speak it and in alignment with its cultural and historical significance in Ireland. But as an official language of the EU, the same as Irish, it already has recognition.

Lots of Polish children are learning Irish. In fact, some attend gaelscoileanna and play hurling and football. Perhaps they should apply to join the Orange Order?

It´s a matter of Integration and your proposal would rather contravene such efforts. Besides, it doesn´t appear to be necessary at all cos they are doing rather well with integrating themselves into the Irish Society. As for your remark regarding membership in the OO, I take that as a joke coming from you.

Professor Moriarty

Thomas__ wrote: »

It´s a matter of Integration and your proposal would rather contravene such efforts. Besides, it doesn´t appear to be necessary at all cos they are doing rather well with integrating themselves into the Irish Society. As for your remark regarding membership in the OO, I take that as a joke coming from you.

It doesn't matter whether it's a joke or not. The vast majority wouldn't be allowed to join.

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

It´s a matter of Integration and your proposal would rather contravene such efforts. Besides, it doesn´t appear to be necessary at all cos they are doing rather well with integrating themselves into the Irish Society. As for your remark regarding membership in the OO, I take that as a joke coming from you.

It doesn't matter whether it's a joke or not. The vast majority wouldn't be allowed to join.

In fact, none of them would be and I suspect the OO would even refuse if some of them would convert to become a Protestant. They simply don´t like them.

Professor Moriarty

Thomas__ wrote: »

In fact, none of them would be and I suspect the OO would even refuse if some of them would convert to become a Protestant. They simply don´t like them.

To paraphrase Paisley, it is a Protestant organisation for a Protestant people.

FrancieBrady

Thomas__ wrote: »

This is the one thing you can´t get out of their heads and hearts of course. It is like some elementary credential in their mindset, collectively applying for many of the Prods. I have given up to debate about this matter with "Ulstermen" as they are too deep rooted in this mentality. When looking at the other community in NI, they might have more reasons to complain for what the minority with the siege complex has done to them, but one can see by many of the CNRs, that they are more progressive and may have overcome some injustice from the past, but that doesn´t means that they have forgotten anything at all. Just they don´t stick to this siege mentatily. That is some aspect which distinguishes those two communities.

I´ve come across various NI Posters who regret it that they couldn´t learn Irish in School cos it was never on the curriculum and everybody knows why. Needless to say that they are of Republican background. On the other Hand, I have come across various posters from the Republic of Ireland who often stated that they have no interest in Irish at all and that they had to learn it in School because it was on the curriculum but don´t use it in their daily life anyway. Some of them were even a bit hostile towards TG4 for which I never had any understanding anyway. I think that it is good that the Irish State is maintaining the teaching of Irish and thus a part of Irish culture which is at the core of the whole Islands history. But let´s be honest, people use that language they are used to it in their daily life.

I´m currently reading the book "Ireland´s Invasion of the World, The Irish diaspora in a nutshell " by Miki Garcia. An interesting reading and although there are passages one knows anyway when one is familiar with Irish history, it was really interesting to learn how many words used in the English language originate and derive from the Irish language. He listed some of them, making a couple of lines in that book.

Unionist leader after leader has at times fed that siege mentality.

And they should be ashamed of it.
The 'Never Never Never' culture is designed to keep unionists living in fear...of 'encroachment by Catholics' (that is the definition of sectarian politics) when it only progressing society back to normality.
That is why I say that time and again their position is untenable and it becomes 'Never, Never, Never...oh well, maybe'.

It is little wonder that no-one on here will engage in a list of these Never Never Never stances to show who is really blocking progress in northern Ireland.

When a 'constitutional nationalist' gets hoodwinked into thinking one side is as bad as the other and has never called out the unionist side on it's own for dragging it's feet, then you can see how effective this strategy is.

Thomas__

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thomas__ wrote: »

In fact, none of them would be and I suspect the OO would even refuse if some of them would convert to become a Protestant. They simply don´t like them.

To paraphrase Paisley, it is a Protestant organisation for a Protestant people.

Quite right and what I´ve read and seen about and of them is enough to deem it very unattractive for my taste.