Irish car tax system

grogi

allthedoyles wrote: »

For instance anyone driving a brand new Skoda Octavia 2.0TDI is only using 4.3L/100km  and they paying road tax of €200 per annum . This needs to change .

You are yet forgetting how much taxes that person paid when they bought that car...

What I would like to see is an easy payment scheme replacing the current setup of 3 months minimum .

This. And enforcement...

Skatedude

So, most of agree that taxing the fuel is the best and logical thing to do. So saying that, What is the worst solution and that is what the government will do.

BoatMad

Skatedude wrote: »

So, most of agree that taxing the fuel is the best and logical thing to do. So saying that, What is the worst solution and that is what the government will do.

personally road pricing is a much fairer system, taxes on motor fuels are there primarily because they are simple to monitor and collect

if we see a change to EVs , then Gov will have to extract the revenue from something other then " fuel " and road pricing seems the next best option

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

personally road pricing is a much fairer system, taxes on motor fuels are there primarily because they are simple to monitor and collect

if we see a change to EVs , then Gov will have to extract the revenue from something other then " fuel " and road pricing seems the next best option

Gates on the main roads across the country with number plates recognition?

ION08

What about tax on mileage? where mileage is recorded yearly at some official centre (NCT or otherwise) and there are different tax rates based on annual mileage.

Would also make clocking cars "Tax Evasion" with serious repercussion (unlike now)

NIMAN

It's pretty obvious what will happen, if it does change.

Post 08, 80% of the new cars bought in Ireland were low tax diesels. This was every year, without fail.

These are the people who will be hit. All the Band A and B cars will definitely go up, as they are the most populous on the roads.

As much as I'd like to see reductions for those who stuck with older petrol engines and are paying €600 - €1000 annually, I can't see any reductions happening. Few govs reduce taxes when they have them high.

And for me, if we are serious about getting people into EVs then they should be tax free, or at least very low, maybe €50. Irish drivers are obsessed with Road tax, and free Road tax for EVs would give a big boost for sales.

Gazzmonkey

bear1 wrote: »

Utter joke that an electric car is on a co2 rate...

I'd say their argument might be... pollution is created to make the electricity !!

BoatMad

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

I'd say their argument might be... pollution is created to make the electricity !!

then that is factored in in the price of electricity , which it is

EV produce no co2 in their use, hence they should not pay a motor tax that is deigned to penalise Co2 output

of course , that a motor tax is so designed is in itself a silly idea.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Gates on the main roads across the country with number plates recognition?

no , either mandatory GPS reporting , or more likely more widespread ANPR , easily done with todays tech , never mind in a few years

BoatMad

NIMAN wrote: »

It's pretty obvious what will happen, if it does change.

Post 08, 80% of the new cars bought in Ireland were low tax diesels. This was every year, without fail.

These are the people who will be hit. All the Band A and B cars will definitely go up, as they are the most populous on the roads.

As much as I'd like to see reductions for those who stuck with older petrol engines and are paying €600 - €1000 annually, I can't see any reductions happening. Few govs reduce taxes when they have them high.

And for me, if we are serious about getting people into EVs then they should be tax free, or at least very low, maybe €50. Irish drivers are obsessed with Road tax, and free Road tax for EVs would give a big boost for sales.

The LEV taskforce on EVs is seriously considering a zero road tax for EVs

the Gov is committed to reducing the incentives that are promoting diesels , its not clear how they will do that , other then removing the differential on diesel

given there are so many cars now in the lower bands, I dont think road tax pays much of a part in anyone's consideration , fuel costs do and this is why diesels are popular,

at the start , petrols couldnt reached the co2 levels to get then into the lower bands and hence the preference for diesels . that has changed in recent years

note 60% of the irish fleet is still petrol by the way

Squeaksoutloud

R.O.R wrote: »

Probably to do with the WLTP way of measuring Co2 that's on the way shortly (and already in place for newly released models) that is going to mean a jump in the Co2 figures of models already for sale, but doesn't effect vehicles already on the road.

Got a technical update on some models yesterday which mean at least a €3,320 price increase for anything built September onwards, as they fall under the WLTP testing regime. Now, that's only a 4% price increase, but Co2 jumps by between 18g - 32g / km.

Are we looking at whole sale price increases come September and tax rises? Maybe 172 is more appealing all of a sudden!

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

the Gov is committed to reducing the incentives that are promoting diesels , its not clear how they will do that , other then removing the differential on diesel

Here are very simple points:
- allow claiming back the VAT on petrol and LPG.
- raising VRT for diesels and reducing it for petrol cars. Buying a new diesel car should make sense only with galactic mileage. The rates should be calculated for the similar diesel to be around €6k more expensive - the price difference should balance back around after 100kkm. Right now the difference is typically smaller that €2k. Take Octavia - currently 25 vs 27k. If the petrol costed 24k and the diesel 30k - only very few diesels would sell.


When it comes to EV - the only incentive for EV we really need is comprehensive and maintained charger network. So that you can drive by a charger and in case it is offline you'd have two or three in 15km radius.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Here are very simple points:
- allow claiming back the VAT on petrol and LPG.
- raising VRT for diesels and reducing it for petrol cars.

The only incentive for EV we really need is comprehensive and maintained charger network...

I know both your points are being considered by the relevant task forces that will report to the ministers , as is also the equalising of duties on petrol and diesel over time ( to minimise the impacts )

currently EVs need significant incentives to overcome the drawbacks inherent in the current models, a key one is the purchase incentive to try and make EVs similar price to equivalent ICE models

The second one is a clear " carrot " and that is ensuring that EV running costs are significantly lower then equivalent ICE

The public charger infrastructure , while clearly important, will diminish in importance over time as longer range vehicles appear, and commercial interests take over the process of that activity . Home charging and home charging using PV will be a majority activity in the intermediate future of EVs

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

mikeecho

I'm sure the government will start a hate campaign against diesel before the next budget.

And then claim how eco green tree huggy they are , by announcing the recently completed contract for lots of petrol cars for a government dept.

BoatMad

mikeecho wrote: »

I'm sure the government will start a hate campaign against diesel before the next budget.

And then claim how eco green tree huggy they are , by announcing the recently completed contract for lots of petrol cars for a government dept.

A new framework enabling the purchase of EVs by state sector is being drawn up. Until that competes no state sector can in reality purchase EVs

thats why they buy what they buy

BoatMad

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

well certainly not if your attitude prevailed

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

mikeecho

BoatMad wrote: »

A new framework enabling the purchase of EVs by state sector is being drawn up. Until that competes no state sector can in reality purchase EVs

thats why they buy what they buy

Lots of petrols on the way, once the field of diesels has been allocated.

BoatMad

mikeecho wrote: »

Lots of petrols on the way, once the field of diesels has been allocated.

yes the new frameworks seem to bias the state sector towards petrol

mikeecho

BoatMad wrote: »

yes the new frameworks seem to bias the state sector towards petrol

Keep an eye out for the 182D 98bhp Ford focus 1L eco boost with a blue light on its roof.

(It'll probably be hard to see in the rear view mirror )

Henry Ford III

The Greens drove this low tax/low C02 regime. They look pretty silly now.

BoatMad

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The Greens drove this low tax/low C02 regime. They look pretty silly now.

and they admit it, but thats all anyone knew at the time, The whole car industry essentially conned the regulators on the back of an obsession with simply c02 reduction

colm_mcm

BoatMad wrote: »

and they admit it, but thats all anyone knew at the time, The whole car industry essentially conned the regulators on the back of an obsession with simply c02 reduction

It wasn't exactly a con. The negative aspects were well known at the time - but they had their own misguided agenda, and got their little victory.

It has to be remembered that the previous VRT and annual tax system was a shambles.

grogi

colm_mcm wrote: »

The negative aspects were well known at the time - but they had their own misguided agenda, and got their little victory.

I don't buy that.

The Euro emission norms were rolled out and the NOx was supposed to be under control. But it turned out it wasn't - but we learned that many years later.

BoatMad

colm_mcm wrote: »

It wasn't exactly a con. The negative aspects were well known at the time - but they had their own misguided agenda, and got their little victory.

It has to be remembered that the previous VRT and annual tax system was a shambles.

This is simply not true, The key policy objectives at the time was to increase fuel economy and decrease c02 emissions

Diesels delivered that admirably

what wasn't knows was the level of on road pollutants ( C02 isnt a pollutant ) that were really being put out. The NEDC was totally inadequate for pollutant control

( the car industry knew of course , but it kept stum)

colm_mcm

BoatMad wrote: »

This is simply not true, The key policy objectives at the time was to increase fuel economy and decrease c02 emissions

Diesels delivered that admirably

what wasn't knows was the level of on road pollutants ( C02 isnt a pollutant ) that were really being put out. The NEDC was totally inadequate for pollutant control

( the car industry knew of course , but it kept stum)

The policy was misguided, that's what I'm saying. I was in Rome in 2005 where diesel mania had already hit Italy, you couldn't sit outside for lunch in certain places the air quality was so bad.

Had anyone in the Greens bothered to read the WHO's 2003 study on the health effects of air pollution with particulate matter (you'd imagine someone in the party would be into that sort of thing?) they might have had an inkling..

Painting Co2 as the bad guy was as ridiculous 10 years ago as it is today.

BoatMad

colm_mcm wrote: »

The policy was misguided, that's what I'm saying. I was in Rome in 2005 where diesel mania had already hit Italy, you couldn't sit outside for lunch in certain places the air quality was so bad.

Had anyone in the Greens bothered to read the WHO's 2003 study on the health effects of air pollution with particulate matter (you'd imagine someone in the party would be into that sort of thing?) they might have had an inkling..

Painting Co2 as the bad guy was as ridiculous 10 years ago as it is today.

The emphasis was on CO2 reduction , that was the driver, I was speaking to Eamon Ryan recently and he accepted the policy was a mistake in the light of current knowledge, but he defended the decision taken with the general knowledge that was available at the time

Note that particulates are only one issue, NOX was not factored in by the greens as it was not seen as the issue it became ( i.e. on road levels )

The greens felt they were doing the right thing , its easily too take a potshot in retrospect

colm_mcm

I'm not doing this in retrospect. I was in car sales in 08 and was up to speed on it then. You only need to look at Japan in the 90s and their move away from diesel in favour of small turbocharged petrol engines.
The new CO2 tax and VRT rates were so out of sync with the advancements manufacturers were making, this shows the level of forward thinking and research involved.
The effects of diesel particulates isn't new knowledge. Ignorance is no excuse, especially from a party who should be experts on this sort of thing.

That's not to say they haven't been a positive influence, they've brought in some great policies.

BoatMad

colm_mcm wrote: »

I'm not doing this in retrospect. I was in car sales in 08 and was up to speed on it then. You only need to look at Japan in the 90s and their move away from diesel in favour of small turbocharged petrol engines.
The new CO2 tax and VRT rates were so out of sync with the advancements manufacturers were making, this shows the level of forward thinking and research involved.
The effects of diesel particulates isn't new knowledge. Ignorance is no excuse, especially from a party who should be experts on this sort of thing.

That's not to say they haven't been a positive influence, they've brought in some great policies.

The fact is at the time ( in the lead up to 08 ) the focus in the green agenda was exclusively on Co2 reduction and mileage efficiency

Diesels delivered this in spades compared to the petrol cars of the day in the irish fleet

hence the policy change

the VW scandal killed that approach and the system will now change

bear1

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact is at the time ( in the lead up to 08 ) the focus in the green agenda was exclusively on Co2 reduction and mileage efficiency

Diesels delivered this in spades compared to the petrol cars of the day in the irish fleet

hence the policy change

the VW scandal killed that approach and the system will now change

It wasn't the vw scandal which caused people to realise that diesel is the be and end all of motoring.
People were literally talked into buying diesel when they had no need for them.
Then the famous dpf synonym came about, I remember when the tax changed came about there were people throwing their old petrol cars away cause the diesels would save them 400e a year of so in tax but you'd be bollocksed with repairs that a petrol wouldn't have needed.
My memory is a bit foggy but in the 90s and say 00s I don't remember diesel being so popular. My parents always had petrol.

bazz26

There was a huge price difference between petrol and diesel cars back in the 1980s and 1990s. Diesel engines were had higher cc too which meant higher motor tax as smaller turbo units were not common. Diesels were alot more agricultural back then too.

pajor

ION08 wrote: »

Daft suggestion IMHO

The problem with your logic is that it does not factor in the time "heavier" cars actually spend on the Road.

Would a 1,000kg car which does 10,000 miles a year not put more "stress:" on the road than a 1,200kg car which does less than 5,000 miles a year?

Why should the heavier car be penalised on the basis that it theoretically "could" cause more stress to the road than a lighter vehicle when it reality it Could but it also Could not.

If tax is to be based on anything to do with the "road" it should be based on road usage.

That's pretty much the basis of the Dutch motor tax system. The weight of vehicle, fuel type and the province that you live in.
I think it's a fair enough system but the rates are very high.

galwaytt

R.O.R wrote: »

Probably to do with the WLTP way of measuring Co2 that's on the way shortly (and already in place for newly released models) that is going to mean a jump in the Co2 figures of models already for sale, but doesn't effect vehicles already on the road.

Got a technical update on some models yesterday which mean at least a €3,320 price increase for anything built September onwards, as they fall under the WLTP testing regime. Now, that's only a 4% price increase, but Co2 jumps by between 18g - 32g / km.

Could you give an example ? If you don't want to name, just spec would do.....am on the fence about changing atmo and the unknown unknown that is the Budget is bothering me: it's 10 years since the Green FU, so due an overhaul imho..

80s Child

So I shouldn't buy the 530d?

mikeecho

80s Child wrote: »

So I shouldn't buy the 530d?

No, you should get the 535d.

But if I was inclined to buy a brand new car, id be hanging on till after the budget before placing any order.

If this budget introduces changes to the motor tax system, (other than the usual few € increase) it will be a good indication of the government's intention for the next 10yrs.

Ie, a return to a CC system.
A tax based on fuel type etc

The budget will be like mystics megs crystal ball, you'll just need to intrepid what route they intend to follow for motor taxation.

80s Child

mikeecho wrote: »

80s Child wrote: »

So I shouldn't buy the 530d?

No, you should get the 535d.

But if I was inclined to buy a brand new car, id be hanging on till after the budget before placing any order.

If this budget introduces changes to the motor tax system, (other than the usual few € increase) it will be a good indication of the government's intention for the next 10yrs.

Ie, a return to a CC system.
A tax based on fuel type etc

The budget will be like mystics megs crystal ball, you'll just need to intrepid what route they intend to follow for motor taxation.

If only I could afford it!!

I think you're right. I was genuine in my question! I've another thread about a 530 or an A6, and I was very much inclined towards the 530, but luckily, I'm unable to but for the next 2 months.

This budget will set the precedence for the next few years, I agree with you there. Knowing sooner rather than later would be a great help!! To me anyway!

Cannon_fodder

i'd go second hand, Irish Governments change goalposts too often and not for the good of the Irish motorist. VRT is still a major anomaly.
If the budget this year does nothing there will be next year's budget. If I were buying a new diesel I would be forever looking over my shoulder like a criminal.

Any positive Government scheme to scrap old diesel cars should allow VRT off a new car.

nice_guy80

time to sell the diesel so

grogi

nice_guy80 wrote: »

time to sell the diesel so

There will be no retroactive action against diesels already on the roads.
Any updates to the tax system - be it motortax or VRT - will apply only new diesels.

Personally I doubt the rules for motortax will be updated.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I was parked beside a 171 reg 640d the other day and looked at the tax disc and seen it was only €390...what a joke! A €100k+ car paying a piddly amount of tax and poor sods driving around in their pre 08 cars paying €710 a year to keep their car on the road.

Bring back tax based on engine size as an emission based system is prone to irregularities as we seen with VW and Mercedes. Engine size is fixed and easy to govern. If someone can afford to pay €100k or more on a 3.0L or 4.0L car then they can also afford to pay a reasonable amount of tax for that car too. €390 is not a reasonable amount when you take in to consideration what the less well of have to pay.

I had an 05 Legacy 2.0 for 5 years. I paid €3550 tax in those years. The previous owners would have paid a similar amount each year since 2005 so all in all the government have had over €8000 in tax from that car. What a fúcking disgrace! There should at least be a change in regulations that pre 08 cars over ten years old get a reduction in tax once they hit 10 years considering how much the government have fleeced from the owners since the car was new.

bazz26

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I was parked beside a 171 reg 640d the other day and looked at the tax disc and seen it was only €390...what a joke! A €100k+ car paying a piddly amount of tax and poor sods driving around in their pre 08 cars paying €710 a year to keep their car on the road.

Bring back tax based on engine size as an emission based system is prone to irregularities as we seen with VW and Mercedes. Engine size is fixed and easy to govern. If someone can afford to pay €100k or more on a 3.0L or 4.0L car then they can also afford to pay a reasonable amount of tax for that car too. €390 is not a reasonable amount when you take in to consideration what the less well of have to pay.

I had an 05 Legacy 2.0 for 5 years. I paid €3550 tax in those years. The previous owners would have paid a similar amount each year since 2005 so all in all the government have had over €8000 in tax from that car. What a fúcking disgrace! There should at least be a change in regulations that pre 08 cars over ten years old get a reduction in tax once they hit 10 years considering how much the government have fleeced from the owners since the car was new.

That 640d owner did pay a fair chunk of tax. It's called VRT and VAT which are included in that 100k+ price tag.

It always seems to be the same old argument from the pre 2008 corner ~ those terrible people buying their new or expensive cars getting away with paying little or no tax on them. Rather than begrudging that 640d owner I actually salute the likes of them for paying that much VRT and VAT into the Exchequer as it means the rest of us might not be squeezed as much through other forms of taxation.

mikeecho

What do people think is a fair price to pay for 12months motor tax ?

And please no. Let's put it on fuel

Cannon_fodder

Fuel is already taxed. We already pay VRT and Vat on cars. We use car for daily commutes and weekend pleasure, tax should be €100.

Grueller

mikeecho wrote: »

What do people think is a fair price to pay for 12months motor tax ?

And please no. Let's put it on fuel

If it were genuinely for the upkeep of roads or motoring related infrastructure and not disappearing into a general taxation black hole, I would say €250p/a. That is €5 per week per car. It's affordable and at 2 million cars on the road yields €520 million per year for the exchequer. What is the current motor tax take?

Edited to say that I have just seen that in 2015 the take was €1.159 billion. Double my calculation, but that there were 2.5 million vehicles on the road. That increase in vehicles would give €635 million at my €250 suggestion.
To maintain the same tax take it would be a flat €450 per vehicle roughly. That is too much in my opinion.

mikeecho

Grueller wrote: »

If it were genuinely for the upkeep of roads or motoring related infrastructure and not disappearing into a general taxation black hole, I would say €250p/a. That is €5 per week per car. It's affordable and at 2 million cars on the road yields €520 million per year for the exchequer. What is the current motor tax take?

It's not for the upkeep of the roads, it's a tax on having a motor, and it is, and always has been for central fund.
Now... if it was a road tax, then it would be just for roads.

I think €500 pa is fair

Falcon L

I could never give a figure that would be fair here. I lived in Spain for many years and the annual tax on my wife's car was €12. My 2.5 turbo diesel was €92.

I thought that was fair.

80s Child

Cannon_fodder wrote: »

i'd go second hand, Irish Governments change goalposts too often and not for the good of the Irish motorist. VRT is still a major anomaly.
If the budget this year does nothing there will be next year's budget. If I were buying a new diesel I would be forever looking over my shoulder like a criminal.

Any positive Government scheme to scrap old diesel cars should allow VRT off a new car.

No way am I going new! I'd have to remortgage the house for that!!

grogi

mikeecho wrote: »

What do people think is a fair price to pay for 12months motor tax ?

Out of my hat

A (exp. Ford Ka) - €150
B (exp. Ford Fiesta) - €250
C (exp. Focus) - €400
C-Van (exp. C-Max, Scenic), C-Suv (Quashai) - €550
D (Mondeo/3-series/Lexus IS) - €700
D-Van (S-Max, Espace) D-Suv (Kuga) - €850
E (5-series, E-Klasse, Lexus GS) - €1000
F (7-series, S-Klasse, Lexus LS) - €1500

Add 20% for diesel. Discount 50% for pure electric, 25% for hybrid petrol.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

If the fairest taxation system is one based on
1. Those that can pay should pay
2. Those that use the roads most pay most.

Then a system where fuel gets and increase in tax to cover usage, and a annual payment based on OMSV (the VRT system already caters for this). No annual payment on brand new cars for 3 years to take VRT into consideration, and low rates for electric and hybrids.

Got an old cars its worth less so you pay less, its a gas guzzler you pay more, you drive loads you pay more, buy an expensive new car thats economical you pay big VRT. I have also found that something like a 640d is not very economical in the real world. I ran one and while the claimed economy if in the 40's MGP the real work is more like 28 MPG, so the fuel bases system catches these.

At the end of the day the aim of motor tax is to generate income. While they can try hammer people with Ferrari's, there is not enough of them. The expensive but economical rep mobile is what will get hammered.