Heavyweight Boxing

walshb

US2 wrote: »

If you were to show someone Tyson at his best, which fight would you show? Not looking for the best or fastest ko but just Tyson at his very best

His absolute best was either v Berbick or v Pinkly Thomas...

V Berbick he was a rock of muscle, power and combination hitting. Very very physically strong

Excellent performances v Spinks and Holmes, too.

Also, very sharp v Tubbs.....

V Tucker and Smith, both far taller, and both strong, and both in to survive, Mike showed excellent boxing ability, patience and focus...

He was also excellent vs Ruddock in both fights

If I had to pick any one fight to take him from to fight anyone else, I'd go with the Berbick version of Tyson...

selectamatic

The Jesse Ferguson fight is another good one for showcasing Mike's all round boxing ability in my opinion.

Great variety of punches, closing the distance well, outstanding headmovement, great power, great defence and excellent punch output and stamina.

squinn2912

Berbick is my favourite mike showcase. That ko having a man of that physicality staggering around falling in all directions. That night mike could’ve beaten a bear. The Holmes ko was awesome. Mentioned in The Hangover!

The Nal

US2 wrote: »

If you were to show someone Tyson at his best, which fight would you show? Not looking for the best or fastest ko but just Tyson at his very best

He was great when he was on the ball in his post prison fights on the way back to winning the title too. An absolute massacre in those few fights up to Holyfield. Still used the peek-a-boo style and fighters were terrified of him.



But then you have the animal early Tyson. The guy who did this to poor Marvis Frazier.

walshb

selectamatic wrote: »

The Jesse Ferguson fight is another good one for showcasing Mike's all round boxing ability in my opinion.

Great variety of punches, closing the distance well, outstanding headmovement, great power, great defence and excellent punch output and stamina.

Agreed

And the Tillis fight from 1986 was a great fight. Mike showed so much in that fight, against a very game Tillis.

squinn2912

Just clarifying a point. My vote was to Leon Spinks as the worst hw champion. Mike got demolished by Tyson but not a bad fighter otherwise

walshb

squinn2912 wrote: »

Just clarifying a point. My vote was to Leon Spinks as the worst hw champion. Mike got demolished by Tyson but not a bad fighter otherwise

But a horrible fighter to watch was Mike Spinks.....

I recall several had Spinks to win, one being Angelo Dundee, and I think Ali picked him as well....

I remember not being surprised, as Angelo and Ali were the real boxers/underdogs, beating the hard hitting bully type fighters...

I am wrong, Angelo picked Tyson KO 1.

SRL picked Spinks via decision.

Littlehorny

Agree with some of what is being said about Tyson, disagree with some also. One thing I can't agree with is the excuses coming on here about how Tyson would beat Holyfield. Don't know what age you guys are but I'm in my late 40's and when Holyfield beat Tyson in their first fight it was an absolute sensation.
I'm as big a fan of Tyson as anyone but you cannot try and rewrite history about this fight, Holyfield was 34, was on a comeback trail after losing his title to Michael Moorer, had lost the third fight to Riddick Bowe by 8th round ko. He had looked poor in his couple of wins before the Tyson. He was seen by Tyson's management as a big name ripe for picking.
Tyson was back as champ, was 30 and had looked sensational by ripping Bruno and Sheldon apart in a few short rounds. He was the 25 to 1 favourite for this fight and no one was picking Holyfield to do the business.
If anything Holyfield burst the myth of Tyson just as much as Douglas did when Tyson lost first. As I said big Tyson fan but when these two men met Holyfield was the better man, end of.

walshb

Who said Holyfield was not the better man when they met?

I would have picked a prime Tyson over a prime Holyfield..

Neither man in 1996 were at prime.

They were not crocks, but they were clearly past their best!

Plus, of all fighters I have seen, I was more suspicious of Evander during 1996 and steroid/HGH than any other. Everything about him. He was a monster...looked completely different in the physical sense, albeit not much heavier...

I know he never failed a test, and his very muscular and strong physique was n 1995/1996 could have been due to hard work....Tyson himself asked that he be steroid tested!

Littlehorny

Tyson himself at that age looked more muscular than his early twenties. I remember saying to my father at the time that Tyson had a six pack like a cheese grater at that time and he reckoned he looked leaner and faster when he destroyed Bruno for the second time than ever.
I know your Tyson's biggest fan Walshb and I respect your boxing knowledge but do you think Tyson's star has diminished with time, I feel he is not as highly rated now as say when he retired 2005.

walshb

Yes, I meant to add that Mike, too may well have been juicing.

Not sure his star has diminished.

Historically he has to be an ATG. His record, wins, championship wins and manner of victory place him ahead of many others...

I mean, some folks have Gene fooking Tunney ahead of him at HW....

I cannot think of any other HW great that seems to get criticised and dissected as much as Tyson...

They pick an incident here and there, and run away with it to slate his whole boxing career and character... but rarely does any other fighter receive the same treatment..

normanoffside

Littlehorny wrote: »

Agree with some of what is being said about Tyson, disagree with some also. One thing I can't agree with is the excuses coming on here about how Tyson would beat Holyfield. Don't know what age you guys are but I'm in my late 40's and when Holyfield beat Tyson in their first fight it was an absolute sensation.
I'm as big a fan of Tyson as anyone but you cannot try and rewrite history about this fight, Holyfield was 34, was on a comeback trail after losing his title to Michael Moorer, had lost the third fight to Riddick Bowe by 8th round ko. He had looked poor in his couple of wins before the Tyson. He was seen by Tyson's management as a big name ripe for picking.
Tyson was back as champ, was 30 and had looked sensational by ripping Bruno and Sheldon apart in a few short rounds. He was the 25 to 1 favourite for this fight and no one was picking Holyfield to do the business.
If anything Holyfield burst the myth of Tyson just as much as Douglas did when Tyson lost first. As I said big Tyson fan but when these two men met Holyfield was the better man, end of.

Yes at a minimum Holyfield has to be higher than Mike in any ATG lists.
I remember that first fight so well, Holyfield coming off an awful performance against Bobby Czyz, Tyson looking unbeatable but yet Holyfield bullied him in the fight. It was a very clear domination.

I also remember getting a huge bet for Holyfield in the rematch, he won the first fight so clearly that i knew he had to win the rematch but the bookies were still offering 7/4 against Evander. It was easy money and Tyson showed extreme cowardice in that fight. Definitely dulled his reputation. It's good to see they are good friends nowadays though. Mike has mellowed.

walshb

Tyson did show real scummy cowardice in fight 2....

But up to that point, he had never ever shown quit...

Yet folks slate and slate him as a career quitter for that one split second incident to foul...

They then use this to say he couldn’t take a beating, yet fail to recognize the actual in the ring beatings he took, and kept trying. Lewis and Douglas to name two fights...as well as Holyfield 1.

His championship opposition is derided. Yet, another great, Holyfield, who beat a 42 year old Holmes and a 42 year old Foreman, and Bert fooking Cooper during his first reign (before being clearly beaten by Bowe), you rarely hear a peep...

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Tyson did show real scummy cowardice in fight 2....

But up to that point, he had never ever shown quit...

Yet folks slate and slate him as a quitter for that one split second incident to foul...

It wasn't a split second decision, he kept doing it. After the fight he showed no remorse and did similar biting LL's leg years later.

I Loved Mike btw and still like him nowadays. His book is one of my all time favourites but it can;t be denied he had a bully's mentality.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

It wasn't a split second decision, he kept doing it. After the fight he showed no remorse and did similar biting LL's leg years later.

I Loved Mike btw and still like him nowadays. His book is one of my all time favourites but it can;t be denied he had a bully's mentality.

Yes, he repeatedly did it. I know this. I was talking it about the decision to do it...

Personally, I think he is a nasty character, as well as a convicted rapist...and rightly so I feel..

I am purely discussing his career. And for me, at his best, pre prison....he was a helluva great fighter....no doubt..

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Yes, he repeatedly did it. I know this. I was talking it about the decision to do it...

Personally, I think he is a nasty character, as well as a convicted rapist...and rightly so I feel..

I am purely discussing his career. And for me, at his best, pre prison....he was a helluva great fighter....no doubt..

Forgetting about Character you have to put Evander above Mike and that makes him a b=doubt for top 10 ATG as Evander is hardly top 5 himself.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Forgetting about Character you have to put Evander above Mike and that makes him a b=doubt for top 10 ATG as Evander is hardly top 5 himself.

Who do you have in your top ten?

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Who do you have in your top ten?

Ali
Foreman
Lewis
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Holyfield
Liston
Johnson
Dempsey


Apart from 'the greatest' in no particular order.

Am I saying Tyson would not beat Dempsey, Marciano or Johnson at 'Prime'? no but I am taking era, longevity and other things into account as well.

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Who do you have in your top ten?

By the way, compiling that list I just look at the great fighters of the 70's that have to be overlooked.

Do you think for example that Ken Norton would be champion nowadays?

I reckon he would beat them all easily.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Ali
Foreman
Lewis
Louis
Marciano
Frazier
Holyfield
Liston
Johnson
Dempsey


Apart from 'the greatest' in no particular order.

Am I saying Tyson would not beat Dempsey, Marciano or Johnson at 'Prime'? no but I am taking era, longevity and other things into account as well.

Hey, it’s your list.

Can’t see how Frazier and Liston get ahead of Tyson.

Frazier lost 2/3 v Ali, knocked out twice be Foreman, and then retired..

Far less a career than Mike, and far less championship wins

Exact same for Liston. Beat a blown up Patterson twice, quit v Ali, possibly twice. And that is it....

Even Dempsey....Hardly a stellar reign at championship level...

Btw, Dempsey, like Louis would get destroyed by Tyson. He’s far too aggressive, with 20 lbs + weight on both of them...

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

By the way, compiling that list I just look at the great fighters of the 70's that have to be overlooked.

Do you think for example that Ken Norton would be champion nowadays?

I reckon he would beat them all easily.

Norton was hit and miss.

Wilder would likely knock him clean out, ala Cooley. He had a weakness about him..

AJ would knock him out...

Fury too big...the rest? Yes, I’d make Norton a favorite..

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Hey, it’s your list.

Can’t see how Frazier and Liston get ahead of Tyson.

Frazier lost 2/3 v Ali, knocked out twice be Foreman, and then retired..

Far less a career than Mike, and far less championship wins

Exact same for Liston. Beat a blown up Patterson twice, quit v Ali, possibly twice. And that is it....

Even Dempsey....Hardly a stellar reign at championship level...

Btw, Dempsey, like Louis would get destroyed by Tyson. He’s far too aggressive, with 20 lbs + weight on both of them...

Ali is the GOAT so to beat him 1/3 is good. Tyson is 0/2 against Holyfield.

Like I said, not saying 'prime Tyson' doesn't beat someone else if you put him in a time machine but dominating an Era and beating the best at that time has to count for something too. Louis dominated his era, if he was born 60 years later he would likely be bigger and stronger and have better technique due to advancements in training.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Ali is the GOAT so to beat him 1/3 is good. Tyson is 0/2 against Holyfield.

Like I said, not saying 'prime Tyson' doesn't beat someone else if you put him in a time machine but dominating an Era and beating the best at that time has to count for something too. Louis dominated his era, if he was born 60 years later he would likely be bigger and stronger and have better technique due to advancements in training.

Frazier is 1/5 vs two greats. 3 losses when in his prime....

His body of work is not near Mike’s..as well as him not being near the all around type fighter that Mike was. Joe had a left hook, and that is about all as regards his offense..

And Liston? Even less impressive...beat fooking nobody...cheated v Ali 1, then quit....but no, this seems to get overlooked. Not with Tyson, though..

Louis would be a sitting duck against Tyson...

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Frazier is 1/5 vs two greats. 3 losses when in his prime....

His body of work is not near Mike’s..as well as him not being near the all around type fighter that Mike was. Joe had a left hook, and that is about all as regards his offense..

And Liston? Even less impressive...beat fooking nobody...cheated v Ali 1, then quit....but no, this seems to get overlooked. Not with Tyson, though..
.

Liston destroyed Patterson, Machen and Folley.

Frazier destroyed Chuvalo, Foster, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis and beat ALI

All of the above are better than anybody Tyson beat IMO.

selectamatic

walshb wrote: »

Frazier is 1/5 vs two greats. 3 losses when in his prime....

To be fair to Joe Frazier I feel he also had a rather short "prime". The 71 Frazier that beat Ali was an animal.

He had kidney issues after this first Ali fight though and these problems are supposed to have reared their head again after the Stander bout. Foreman marked a brutal end to what was already a fading prime.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Liston destroyed Patterson, Machen and Folley.

Frazier destroyed Chuvalo, Foster, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis and beat ALI

All of the above are better than anybody Tyson beat IMO.

Patterson...a blown up MW...

Bob Foster? A LHW.....At least Spinks actually win the title...

Quarry was good. Bonavena? Come on...

Chuvalo was a punch bag...

Liston and Frazier were very good....their championship reigns were very ordinary/weak..

walshb

selectamatic wrote: »

To be fair to Joe Frazier I feel he also had a rather short "prime". The 71 Frazier that beat Ali was an animal.

He had kidney issues after this first Ali fight though and these problems are supposed to have reared their head again after the Stander bout. Foreman marked a brutal end to what was already a fading prime.

He just did not do near enough as champion to get ahead of Tyson...

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

He just did not do near enough as champion to get ahead of Tyson...

Beating Ali even once is more than enough to get ahead of Tyson.
There was not quit in Joe either.

selectamatic

walshb wrote: »

He just did not do near enough as champion to get ahead of Tyson...

Ya I suppose I'm not really disagreeing with ya however I do feel 68-71 Frazier is Joe at his best. If Ali were active during all of those years perhaps Joe could have put a more of a stamp on his HW reign.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Beating Ali even once is more than enough to get ahead of Tyson.
There was not quit in Joe either.

Come on. Hanging on this is not good enough.

Plus, many say that the prime Ali was pre 1970...

Ali’s prime for me was mid to late 60s...

Frazier lost 4/5 against elite..