Heavyweight Boxing

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Come on. Hanging on this is not good enough.

Plus, many say that the prime Ali was pre 1970...

Ali’s prime for me was mid to late 60s...

Frazier lost 4/5 against elite..

Tyson has no wins against Elite Heavyweights. Lost 3 times against top heavies (and they were all past their prime at the time too).
Anyone he beat was either no good to start with or so past it that they never beat anyone in the future.

The Ali that Frazier beat went on the beat Prime Foreman and several
other top 20 fighters.

Frazier has a win against a top 1 Heavy and some other top 20/30's too.

No comparison I'm afraid.

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Come on. Hanging on this is not good enough.

Plus, many say that the prime Ali was pre 1970...

Ali’s prime for me was mid to late 60s...

Frazier lost 4/5 against elite..

Also Frazier beat Quarry twice and Quarry beat Shavers and Lyle in an era where these guys were slugging it against all time greats..
Tyson never beat anyone as good as Quarry, Lyle or Shavers in their primes.

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Tyson has no wins against Elite Heavyweights. Lost 3 times against top heavies (and they were all past their prime at the time too).
Anyone he beat was either no good to start with or so past it that they never beat anyone in the future.

The Ali that Frazier beat went on the beat Prime Foreman and several
other top 20 fighters.

Frazier has a win against a top 1 Heavy and some other top 20/30's too.

No comparison I'm afraid.

Exactly my point about Tyson and the OTT criticism..

He beat all the best in his era to unify, yet you slate them, but with Liston, suddenly Patterson (one of history’s weakest ever champions) is what, worthy?

Frazier has wins against top 20s/30s too? Who? Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry? Tyson’s wins in mid to late 80s more than as good...

Tyson lost 3 times against top heavies....all past their primes? As was Mike..

Ali...lost to Leon.....is this somehow different than say a washed up 2002 Tyson losing to Lewis, who was far better than Leon?

As always, Mike gets OTT analysed/criticised.

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

As always, Mike gets OTT analysed/criticised.

No it's just Mike never beat a great and lost to anyone near a great.

The others all beat greats.

Holyfield beat Bowe, lost to Lewis but beat Tyson twice.
Lewis beat Holyfield and Tyson and everyone else in his era including Tua and Vitali.
Frazier beat Ali and a tonne of top 20/30 guys.
Ali Beat Liston, Norton,Frazier and (when past it) a Prime Foreman.
Foreman beat Frazier and Norton, lyle and others and came back 15 years later to take prime Holyfield the distance and Beat Moorer for a title.

Tyson just doesn't have the resume.

walshb

Tyson beat Berbick, a champion; Smith, a champion; Tucker, a champion; Pinky, a former champion; Holmes, an ATG former champion; Tubbs, a former champion; Biggs, a SHW gold medalist; Spinks, the Ring lineal champion; Ruddock twice, a very solid heavy hitting challenger; Bruno, a champion....

No, but all these are nobodies... suits the anti Tyson agenda..

But Ellis, Quarry, Folley, Bonavena, Norton, none being champions, are all worthy?

Liston....beat nobody, but you trot out Folley and Machen?

He lost twice to Ali, cheated and quit...

Sorry, love Joe, but apart from one single win against a past peak Ali, he has 0 wins that you can say are any better than Tyson’s wins...

Foreman? Beat Joe. Tailor made for him. Knocked out by Ali, and lost to Jimmy Young..

Norton? Who never won a title....

Foreman then lost to Holyfield and Morrison....

Beat Michael Moorer....nobody gives a damn about Moorer. He’d be canon fodder to Tyson...

You’re just not assessing all these guys fairly...

US2

normanoffside wrote: »

Beating Ali even once is more than enough to get ahead of Tyson.
There was not quit in Joe either.

Tyson would beat Ali

walshb

US2 wrote: »

Tyson would beat Ali

I would bet on peak Tyson to be too strong for peak Ali

1964/1965 Ali vs 1986 Tyson? I think Ali won’t have the power to at all discourage Tyson, and he would be on defense and on the bike all night...Ali’s jab won’t be as effective against the fast attacking bob and weave Tyson attacks...And if Cooper could get to that chin.......well? I know it was 1963, but still...

The 1970s Ali stylistically has a better chance. Physically stronger, more experienced, tougher, but still probably defending more than scoring...

Tyson at peak will be hell for anyone. He could box as well as fight and bang..

Frazier, same height and similar makeup to Tyson, gave Ali a terrible time. And Frazier has one punch, a left hook. Tyson is faster with feet and hands, and has far more punching variety....

normanoffside

US2 wrote: »

Tyson would beat Ali

We’ve reached peak Tyson fanboy status.
In that case Tyson is the Goat.

Not even Tyson believes this

https://youtu.be/ozPgyRieX3I

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

I would bet on peak Tyson to be too strong for peak Ali

1964/1965 Ali vs 1986 Tyson? I think Ali won’t have the power to at all discourage Tyson, and he would be on defense and on the bike all night...Ali’s jab won’t be as effective against the fast attacking bob and weave Tyson attacks...And if Cooper could get to that chin.......well? I know it was 1963, but still...

The 1970s Ali stylistically has a better chance. Physically stronger, more experienced, tougher, but still probably defending more than scoring...

Tyson at peak will be hell for anyone. He could box as well as fight and bang..

Frazier, same height and similar makeup to Tyson, gave Ali a terrible time. And Frazier has one punch, a left hook. Tyson is faster with feet and hands, and has far more punching variety....

Ah now I’m not going with that.

If Ali has been banned or retired earlier then you’d be convinced that Foreman would have obliterated him. We all know what happened. Ali would find a way.

Talking about Henry getting through is ok but Ali was clowning around. Rachman got to Lewis.

squinn2912

normanoffside wrote: »

We’ve reached peak Tyson fanboy status.
In that case Tyson is the Goat.

Not even Tyson believes this

https://youtu.be/ozPgyRieX3I

Don’t have to watch that link I know what it is. Tyson was unique and awesome to watch but I’m with Ali here.

In fairness no one here is claiming Tyson as further up the ATG List than Ali. No argument there. It’s peak vs peak

NoviGlitzko

If there was a hypothetical fight between peak Tyson and peak Ali, my money would be on Tyson all day long. Don't think anyone was better when he had the dedication. Criminally underrated with some boxing fans when talking about his peak.

Sadly never realised his full potential and for me shouldn't be talked about in the AT greatest chat.

normanoffside

squinn2912 wrote: »

Don’t have to watch that link I know what it is. Tyson was unique and awesome to watch but I’m with Ali here.

In fairness no one here is claiming Tyson as further up the ATG List than Ali. No argument there. It’s peak vs peak

Watch it, it’s Tyson saying that he never had Ali’s Toughness. It’s real talk.

normanoffside

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

If there was a hypothetical fight between peak Tyson and peak Ali, my money would be on Tyson all day long. Don't think anyone was better when he had the dedication. Criminally underrated with some boxing fans when talking about his peak.

Sadly never realised his full potential and for me shouldn't be talked about in the AT greatest chat.

That’s exactly my feelings. Mike had the potential to be the GOAT but sadly he never had the mentality to do it.

squinn2912

normanoffside wrote: »

Watch it, it’s Tyson saying that he never had Ali’s Toughness. It’s real talk.

Sorry I was thinking Of something else. Anything Tyson says nowadays I take with a pinch of salt it’s the ramblings of a disheveled shadow of a great man

squinn2912

normanoffside wrote: »

That’s exactly my feelings. Mike had the potential to be the GOAT but sadly he never had the mentality to do it.

Had he? God I don’t know. He was excellent but that point by nature is flawed. By that logic I could be the GOAT myself but I’m too small, slow, unskilled and brittle... only for that though

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

We’ve reached peak Tyson fanboy status.
In that case Tyson is the Goat.

Not even Tyson believes this

https://youtu.be/ozPgyRieX3I

It’s a one off fantasy fight. Not a career dissection

Ali was not unbeatable...

It’s not at all crazy to think that a peak Tyson, with his style and power and all around tools, could get the job done here...

Frazier got the job done...Tyson is a far more rounded fighter. And faster, heavier hitting, with more shot variety...

Ali also had 0 inside game....

Remove the Ali enigma and fame. Just match the two as boxers...

Tyson is a very difficult style match here. I think it absurd that any boxing fan, not Ali or Tyson fan, could not see this...

I say this as someone who thinks Ali to be the greatest sporting figure in history..

To show what I mean....Tyson, as much as I rate him, style wise a HW Toney is D worst matchup for Mike. Absolute worst....Toney thrives on Mike’s aggression all night long, and beats him up on the inside for a late stoppage. Toney has the steel-chin, defense, and ridiculously good ring IQ and inside game to give Mike fits..and most importantly, Toney feared no man, and would not at all be intimidated...And Mike has no real physical advantages here..

That’s the beauty of fantasy fights. A beats B beats C beats and so on..

A Wlad or Vitali easily outpoint Toney. A Foreman Walks through Wlad.....and so on

normanoffside

Walshie you are a Gas man. Tyson beats Ali but James Toney beats Tyson.

Welcome back anyway. Your debate has been missed.

normanoffside

Anyway, since we are talking about all these GOATs, I’ll ask the million dollar question.


How do they do against a prime delboy Chisora?

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Walshie you are a Gas man. Tyson beats Ali but James Toney beats Tyson.

Welcome back anyway. Your debate has been missed.

Yes, styles..

Surely you understand this?

Been around for years and years...

None of them are unbeatable.....

Ali outpoints Toney. Why? His style is wrong for Toney...

Toney’s style and skills all wrong for Mike...

Wlad all wrong for Toney.

Foreman all wrong for Wlad

Ali all wrong for Foreman...

I’d like to hear your breakdown for why Toney couldn’t beat Mike...

Because a KO is just not happening against one of the sport’s toughest and most defensively gifted and resilient fighters ever..

Mike outbox Toney? Hardly. Toney exact same height, and a better boxer. Mike has to get close to win, and this is actually where he will suffer most; Toney is a far better inside fighter. I see Mike missing the vast majority of his shots, and steadily eating solid counters all night...on the outside, Toney won’t be hit at all. This has to be mid to close range action..This is where Toney’s accuracy and defense clearly win out.

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Ali also had 0 inside game....

Did ok against Foreman!

Some of the praise for Tyson here is bordering on delusional. He beat:

walshb wrote: »

Tyson beat Berbick, a champion; Smith, a champion; Tucker, a champion; Pinky, a former champion; Holmes, an ATG former champion; Tubbs, a former champion; Biggs, a SHW gold medalist; Spinks, the Ring lineal champion; Ruddock twice, a very solid heavy hitting challenger; Bruno, a champion....
No, but all these are nobodies... suits the anti Tyson agenda..

Berbick - A decent journeyman well past his prime
Smith - An average journeyman well past his prime. Lost to Marvis Frazier FFS.
Tucker - A decent top 10 fighter
Thomas - A decent fighter past his prime, lost 4 of his next 5.
Holmes - A retired 38 year old in for a payday
Tubbs - A bog standard top 10
Biggs - A sub standard pro fighter
Spinks - A lightwight
Ruddock - A tough heavyweight, Tyson struggled in both fights.
Bruno - lol


So thats it? Jesus.

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Did ok against Foreman!

Yes, but there was next to no "inside type fighting." Holding, clinching, pushing, pulling....Foreman was trying to work with his hands inside, but Ali was too cute

Ali was not known for any type of decent inside game.....

Had an inside game as regards clinching and spoiling, no doubt.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Yes, styles..

Surely you understand this?

Been around for years and years...

None of them are unbeatable.....

Ali outpoints Toney. Why? His style is wrong for Toney...

Toney’s style and skills all wrong for Mike...

Wlad all wrong for Toney.

Foreman all wrong for Wlad

Ali all wrong for Foreman...

I’d like to hear your breakdown for why Toney couldn’t beat Mike...

Because a KO is just not happening against one of the sport’s toughest and most defensively gifted and resilient fighters ever..

Mike outbox Toney? Hardly. Toney exact same height, and a better boxer. Mike has to get close to win, and this is actually where he will suffer most; Toney is a far better inside fighter. I see Mike missing the vast majority of his shots, and steadily eating solid counters all night...on the outside, Toney won’t be hit at all. This has to be mid to close range action..This is where Toney’s accuracy and defense clearly win out.

So all the giant heavyweights of today have no chance against Mike but James Toney who was a super middle / light heavy weight in his prime beats him every time ??


Yesterday Mike was some kind of Terminator who didn't miss shots had unreal cardio , a granite chin and was unrivalled in his prime but today James Toney beats him every time


Yes Toney was great boxer no question but there are weight classes for a reason .

yourdeadwright

The Nal wrote: »

Did ok against Foreman!

Some of the praise for Tyson here is bordering on delusional. He beat:



Berbick - A decent journeyman well past his prime
Smith - An average journeyman well past his prime. Lost to Marvis Frazier FFS.
Tucker - A decent top 10 fighter
Thomas - A decent fighter past his prime, lost 4 of his next 5.
Holmes - A retired 38 year old in for a payday
Tubbs - A bog standard top 10
Biggs - A sub standard pro fighter
Spinks - A lightwight
Ruddock - A tough heavyweight, Tyson struggled in both fights.
Bruno - lol


So thats it? Jesus.

Shhh don't ruin the MYTH ,
Imagine people think his 3 best win's are Spinks (light heavy) Ruddock ( yesteryears Dillian Whyte) and (2 years retired on a two fight losing streak) Larry Holms ,

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Did ok against Foreman!

Some of the praise for Tyson here is bordering on delusional. He beat:



Berbick - A decent journeyman well past his prime
Smith - An average journeyman well past his prime. Lost to Marvis Frazier FFS.
Tucker - A decent top 10 fighter
Thomas - A decent fighter past his prime, lost 4 of his next 5.
Holmes - A retired 38 year old in for a payday
Tubbs - A bog standard top 10
Biggs - A sub standard pro fighter
Spinks - A lightwight
Ruddock - A tough heavyweight, Tyson struggled in both fights.
Bruno - lol


So thats it? Jesus.

Sorry, he beat all that was in his era

Like I said, look at others through the years

Louis and his bum of the month club.

Frazier, apart from Ali, beat nobody that great...

Listn the same. Many examples...

You picking all Tyson's and slagging them as journeymen, when they were no different than any era they were the top rated..

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So all the giant heavyweights of today have no chance against Mike but James Toney who was a super middle / light heavy weight in his prime beats him every time ??


Yesterday Mike was some kind of Terminator who didn't miss shots had unreal cardio , a granite chin and was unrivalled in his prime but today James Toney beats him every time


Yes Toney was great boxer no question but there are weight classes for a reason .

Weigh classes for a reason?

You do know Toney fought at HW? Was the same height as Mike.....

Kind of silly debating this if you cannot grasp these things...

Can you accept that no HW was unbeatable?

If so, you can debate fantasy matches. Chill out...

Toney loses to most big HWs for a reason. He is too short, and isn't a dynamite type hitter...

Other big HWs suffer more against a Tyson type fighter, bob and weave, with dynamite hands, solid chin and capable of reALLY knocking them out.

Do I need to e xplain the whole A beats B beats C and so on and so on..

I never ever said no man could beat Tyson. So, off you seem to be going saying that I said no man has a chance....I never ever claimed this....

If I had to pick one at HW to cause him the MOST issues, I would pick Toney. He has the perfect blend of everything to be a bad match for Mike....

That is not me saying that Toney is a great HW. He was a great fighter

LL, Bowe and Vitali are three more that would cause Mike serious issues....

Isn't that what the forum should be about, discussing boxing and what ifs. Fantasy fights are brilliant...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Sorry, he beat all that was in bis ear

Like I said, look at others through the years

Louis and his bum of the month club.

Frazier, apart from Ali, beat nobody that great...

Listn the same. Many examples...

I agree a lot of the top guys fought countless bums ,but the one thing they have on Mike is they all have at least one big stand out win,


As you said Frazier beat Ali, Mike doesn't have a single win like that on his record,

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Weigh classes for a reason?

You do know Toney fought at HW? Was the same height as Mike.....

Kind of silly debating this if you cannot grasp these things...

Can you accept that no HW was unbeatable?

If so, you can debate fantasy matches. Chill out...

Toney loses to most big HWs for a reason. He is to short, and isn't a dynamite type hitter...

Other big HWs suffer more against a Tyson type fighter, bob and weave, with dynamite hands, solid chin and capable of reALLY knocking them out.

Do I need to e xplain the whole A beats B beats C and so on and so on..

I never ever said no man could beat Tyson.

If I had to pick one at HW to cause him the MOST issues, I would pick Toney. He has the perfect blend of everything to be a mad match for Mike....

That is not me saying that Toney is a great HW. He was a great fighter

LL, Bowe and Vitali are three more that would cause Mike serious issues....

Isn't that what the forum should be about, discussing boxing and what ifs. Fantasy fights are brilliant...

But the problem is Toney was NEVER a great heavy weight


He was past it by the time he fought at heavy weigh, So how can you say he would beat a Prim Mike Tyson at the weight ?


I understand talking about heavy weights from different times fighting each other and wondering how it would go but Toney was never a great heavy weight ,

The Nal

walshb wrote: »

Sorry, he beat all that was in bis ear

Like I said, look at others through the years

Louis and his bum of the month club.

Frazier, apart from Ali, beat nobody that great...

Listn the same. Many examples...

Louis had 25 title defenses, finished his career at 58-1 and avenged that one loss. Bum of the month club consisted of 13 fights in 14 months. Won them all.

Frazier - Thats one more great than Tyson ever beat and he fought in the greatest era ever.

Liston - Beat Williams twice (pre shooting), Patterson twice. Again, better fighters than Mike beat.

Trying to scrub these great fighters out of history to prop up Mike strikes me as a bit odd. Like when people downvoted the Godfather 2 on IMDB just to get Batman to the greatest film ever.

I'd have him placed closer to 17 - like below - than top 10. Fame above character and all that.

https://www.ringtv.com/410833-bill-caplans-20-greatest-heavyweights/

walshb

This could be a fun and interesting type debate...

Picking all the greats and saying who would be their worst opponent...

Can guarantee that ALL would suffer losses.....

Ali.....for me a peak Tyson his worst style; followed by Lewis/Vitali and Bowe...

Tyson: HW Toney for me his worst style match, followed by Vitali/Bowe and Lewis

Lewis: Worst match is Tyson, followed by Bowe and Foreman.

Bowe: Worst match is Foreman, followed by Tyson and Lewis..

Foreman: Worst match is Ali, followed by Tyson and Lewis and Bowe

And so on and so on. Loads permutations, and some men being bad and good in matches against the same opponenet

Example: Lewis I feel has real trouble with Formean, but likewise, Foreman has real trouble with Lewis

walshb

The Nal wrote: »

Louis had 25 title defenses, finished his career at 58-1 and avenged that one loss. Bum of the month club consisted of 13 fights in 14 months. Won them all.

Frazier - Thats one more great than Tyson ever beat and he fought in the greatest era ever.

Liston - Beat Williams twice (pre shooting), Patterson twice. Again, better fighters than Mike beat.

Trying to scrub these great fighters out of history to prop up Mike strikes me as a bit odd. Like when people downvoted the Godfather 2 on IMDB just to get Batman to the greatest film ever.

I'd have him placed closer to 17 - like below - than top 10. Fame above character and all that.

https://www.ringtv.com/410833-bill-caplans-20-greatest-heavyweights/

Patterson,.....one of the worst and weakest champs ever.....

All Tyson's victims from the 80s blow him away

Do you see the selective ignorance here....

Liston beat Williams? So fooking what. Cleveland Williams was not elite, never a champion either....