Heavyweight Boxing

Henno30

Question is if he's still adaptable. For me it's a bit like the change of mindset Wlad went through. You're the bigger man, why take risks? Why walk into something? Let the other guy do the work, let him take risks. Thing is Wlad's horrible clinching made that work whereas AJ still gives the ref an easy night's work.

Changing the strategy with the trainer is all well and good, but it all depends on whether or not he mentally has the ability to do it.

Morrison J

Think there's far too much micro- analysing of Joshua going on everywhere tbh. Genuinely think that was probably the performance of his career.

No shame in coming up short against probably the best fighter in the world. Was more impressed with him being competitive against an elite fighter in his prime in Usyk than any overmatched opponent he's easily beat in the past.

Joshua was really good, Usyk was great. It is what it is.

yourdeadwright

Anyone now who AJ had in sparring with him ?

I love the story that Wlad wouldn't let Usyk spar him during media days, he would give Usyk the day off as he was making Wlad look bad,

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944591#Comment_117944591

No, they'll take the rematch. The gravy train is quite chuggish now. It's has been derailed twice.....

I mean, AJ is a very wealthy man as it is. The rematch will sell big. Why waste time risking another fight against anyone else, unless it is Wilder or Fury.

The rest of them are nobodies really.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944686#Comment_117944686

I think there is a lot to talk about wit this one, Aj wasn't really good at all on Saturday , He was poor,

AJ leave us with lots of question , he himself said they changed alot for this fight,

Why slim down so much, Why try to box , Why not rough him up , why not use your strength , Why did his corner keep saying he was doing great ,

I know he can be a absolute melt at times but Fury is lucky to have his Dad around calls it straight & never afraid to tell Tyson what he thinks

He main reason he got rid of even Davison & got Sugar onboard, Even recently telling him he has to many yes men in the states & to get back to Morcambe to put the real work in ,Aj could do with someone who isn't there to just gas him up

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944686#Comment_117944686

I just can't agree with this. AJ was far from really good. I have watched enough of him, and everything about him the other night was poorer than I have ever seen. I think you are overrating Usyk more than anyone underrating AJ in this fight.

Usyk himself is probably surprised at how easy the fight was against the clearly bigger man

Maybe you watched something different to me, but could you not see AJ was kind of in a daze, and going through the motions? And Usyk wasn't all to blame here.

90 percent his punches had next to no spite or commitment on them. In the clinch he was terrified. He never once really went for it with gusto. I was sitting watching wondering wtf was happening, and was AJ going to actually start trying to win.

Not sure how it can be seen a a very good AJ showing

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944727#Comment_117944727

AJ wasn't poor at all. He was competitive against an elite fighter. I suppose some of it depends on how highly you rate Usyk too. Going in I expected Usyk to win by stoppage. I was impressed that Joshua boxed 12 competitive rounds at that high a level (even though he lost the fight itself clear).

If Joshua hadn't slimmed down so much I'd think he'd have been stopped late. Probably was the difference in his gas tank holding up or him getting stopped so I can completely see why he did that.

Trying to box may well have gave him the best chance of winning. He's not Derek Chisora and he never will be. He doesn't have the engine to stick to a fighters chest and make the ring small. Never has done.

The tactic was definitely to survive 12, be semi competitive and hope they steal it on the cards. Hence the corner screaming "brilliant" at any small bit of success to try to influence the judging. These are the sort of tactics you have to resort to when facing elite opposition.

They never wanted to fight Usyk hence why they tried so desperately to make the Fury fight last year and to cash out there and then. I was shocked they didn't vacate the belt tbh but obviously Joshua had too much pride to do that so fair dues I suppose.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944796#Comment_117944796

This reminds me of you saying Fury's performance against Wlad was awful too.

The reason Joshua and Wlad lost those two fights was because of the calibre of the opponent in front of them not that they magically lost their ability to pull the trigger and commit to their punches.

Try throwing the kitchen sink at a slick, feinting southpaw that's over 200 pounds and will make you pay for your mistakes. Both Joshua and Gassiev couldn't do it against Usyk. It's not some sort of weird coincidence. It's because Usyk is elite and a level above both of them.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944837#Comment_117944837

I didn't say he was poor i said he wasn't really good and he wasn't ,

Usyk performed brilliantly but AJ has to show & give more than that, His tactics and game plan where all wrong slim down to box the boxer ,

He had to go out early & show Usyk who the big man was, As Roy Jones put it you got to show him its your block & your the big dog , once you let Usyk get's a flying start your in trouble,

Fury & Roy before both said AJ has to go put it on him early & both are correct, It was just all wrong tactically , Aj knows this himself hence why he was so adamant he wants the rematch, He knows the approached it wrong ,

I had to laugh at Whyte saying AJs a "weirdo " for fighting like that , never the most elegant with his word ,

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944862#Comment_117944862

Fury and Wlad put on an awful looking HW spectacle IMO. I think a few people would agree here.

AJ for me was very poor the other night..

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944916#Comment_117944916

Awful spectacle , Awful performance by Wlad (never figured it out or tried anything different ) , Brilliant performance by Fury ,

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944895#Comment_117944895

This is a Joshua who fought off the back foot against Carlos Takam of all people. I really can't fathom why anyone would think he'd come out like some slugger against Usyk. There's a misconception about what kind of fighter he is maybe. He's not been that kind of fighter since British level really and for good reason.

Resorted to it in a moment of madness against Wlad, gassed out a round later, got dropped and was extremely lucky that Wlad let him off the hook.

Showed no respect to Andy Ruiz and let his hands go recklessly and got beat up as a result. Ruiz is not a puncher either.

He's not beating a guy of Usyk's class no matter what the tactics. Maybe he gives himself the slimmest of chances by trying to take him out in the first couple of rounds but I'd be extremely confident it'd be Joshua that ends up getting stopped in that scenario. Doesn’t have quick enough feet to walk Usyk down, and has never in his career shown the ability to grapple or lean on an opponent inside like Fury does for example. Usyk would keep turning him and pick him apart before Joshua gases out. I said before the fight that Joshua couldn't pin Joseph Parker down, good luck trying to pin Usyk down.

There's just a solid level or two between them realistically but for Joshua to win rounds, be largely competitive and to go the distance with someone of the class of a Usyk was impressive to me anyway.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944916#Comment_117944916

Was awful looking alright but extremely effective by Fury.

Funny how Wlad had no issue pulling the trigger against a perceived bigger puncher than Fury in Joshua soon after though.

Good footwork can often spook someone far more than big power.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945007#Comment_117945007

I think Wlad pulled the trigger (punch count) as much, or at least quite close in 2015 as 2017

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944987#Comment_117944987

Doesn't have to be a slugger ,he is more than capable of being more aggressive & assertive & critically have more intensity ,

He caught Usyk several times with big shot's but then stood off, He simply had to let his hands go more when that happened, No one is talking about being reckless,

He will 100% come into the next fight heavier & more assertive & with more intensity , He may not win but he will have a better chance of winning ,

As you correctly pointed out he had no chance to outbox him like he tried ,

Usyk is great & performed well, but you only have to look at his face to see AJ had joy he just never put the foot down & followed up

AJ had a stinker on Saturday he really did, He can 100% perform better but will it be enough to win probably not

I agree Usyk is better

SHOVELLER

Well that was certainly a commanding performance from Usyk and he silenced the doubters emphatically. From the off his movement was superior and his vast experience shone through. Usyk did reference Haye's win over Valuev beforehand and the same happened here as he was able to outmove Joshua and ultimately outbox him. The first rounds set the tone as Usyk stood his ground and was aggressive to the head and body and then as it went on Joshua's stamina was suspect and he had too much ground to make up. The last seconds of the fight Usyk was trying to get him out of there! As mentioned his corner didnt help and honestly think he needs to switch to an American trainer.

Its the right thing to do to go straight into the rematch as per the contract but like Fury Wilder 3 cant see any difference in the result. Gulf was there for all to see.

Thought the crowd did the home town fighter no favours. Lots of rounds fought in silence when maybe getting behind him might have helped.

Lastly good to see the respect between these two likeable fighters.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945054#Comment_117945054

With commitment though as you'd say yourself?

Wlad threw double the power punches against Joshua than he did v Fury.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945063#Comment_117945063

Pretty much everything said here

And yes, no need for a slugger approach. Simple: quit the tip tapping BS and give it a fooking go. If you lose, so be it, but at least you gave it a go.

Anyone looking at AJs showing the other night and not seeing clear issues/areas that need addressing, I don't know what to say here...!

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945083#Comment_117945083

Yes....agreed..

But different opponents and styles and sizes etc can lead to different approaches etc. I wouldn't get bogged down over-analyzing here..

Fury won. The spectacle for me was poor.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944895#Comment_117944895

Haha, i like whyte, no filter, he is what he is, he was always on about aj being manufactured and behind it all ajs not a nice guy. Hard not to like whyte.

Morrison J

I hope the rematch happens then just so Joshua can come out gun-ho and get beat even more emphatically.

You know you’re in trouble when you’re relying on a game plan you simply won't be able to properly implement.

Derek Chisora pulled the wool over a lot of eyes!

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945096#Comment_117945096

Yeah was poor to watch, fury didnt land any major amount clean, but landed alot more than a scared wlad.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945108#Comment_117945108

He doesn't have to be gung ho at all. He simply needs more spite and passion and commitment on his offense. That doesn't mean reckless, gung ho or any other risky type approach.

Also, huge change mentality and approach on his clinching and in-close work. That was absolutely stinkingly poor from him.

Chisora didn't pull the wool over my eyes, (not saying you mean me) as I referenced several times how he is a completely different style, and how his style would likely always cause Usyk issues

normanoffside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944701#Comment_117944701

I think a fight against Whyte would sell pretty well in the UK and would be less risky than the rematch.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945122#Comment_117945122

Just opens up two of his biggest flaws in his chin and his gas tank to be exposed further by an elite fighter.

Could micro-analyse it forever but whichever approach he takes he's not beating Usyk. He's just not good enough, that's it.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945143#Comment_117945143

Still a KO risk, and he already KO'd Whyte. Please, spare us....

I see no real benefit in wasting time with this type fight. Happens when? Spring to summer 2022? Then another 6-9 months at least to a Usyk rematch?

Wilder/Fury or Usyk next is the best for AJ and the best for us

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945156#Comment_117945156

Yes, but if he charged you with training him for the rematch, would you offer no change, and juts tell him he is not good enough?

Surely you can spot/see areas where he can improve, and give himself a better chance in a rematch?

Littlehorny

Just thinking here lads would someone like Lennox Lewis not be a good option to come in and show Joshua how to box like a big man?

I know Joshua is not in Lewis's league ability wise but surely he could teach him a few things and get him mentally tougher and maybe improve him a bit the same way Manny Stewart improved Lewis.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945183#Comment_117945183

Well if I was advising him I'd have advised him to drop the belt instead of fighting Usyk in the first place. I'd now be steering clear of the rematch tbh.

It's an impossible job for a trainer trying to implement a tactic that a fighter won't be able to pull off. I'm not sure if Joshua can really improve much on that performance to be honest. In the situation with the fight being in London with Howard Foster judging etc I don't really have any issue with the tactics. Probably gave him his best chance to win.

Either way though, if there's a rematch he's getting beat again.

iebamm2580

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945480#Comment_117945480

It really would be terrible for his legacy to dodge fights, it would have been blatantly obvious and he would never leave it down, do the -rematch, get bet again, just acknowledge how good usyk is and move on, reckon usyk wont stay too long, talks about family alot. He has done it all.

OmegaGene

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944727#Comment_117944727

john fury is a boxing man but tyson doesnt listen to him as much as john likes to make out, john told him not to fight wilder the first time and told him he would end up in hospital or worse and refused to speak to him for months, and as for ben leaving that was because fury wanted to add the kronk style to his camp because tyson could see that is what would beat wilder and keep ben too but ben decided not to play second fiddle.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945314#Comment_117945314

Don't they hate each other or something ?

Mad how right now its Mannys nephew that's teaching Fury how fight like a big man & Fury he already has the boxing ability to fall back on ,

OmegaGene

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945156#Comment_117945156

he has to rematch usyk or he will start losing brands that sponsor him, what is the plan if he swerves usyk then ? just fighting for pay cheque to pay cheque like chisora

it is surely all about being world champion and if he isnt that and hes not going to fight for it against usyk then what good is he ?

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945480#Comment_117945480

drop the belt and do what though? fight fury? i suppose he makes more money but it would be a bigger beat down.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945515#Comment_117945515

Aye he was backed into a corner and I would have lambasted him if he dropped the belt and ducked the fight but it was the obvious smart move from a career perspective. Canelo dropped his belt to duck a prime GGG but nobody mentions that anymore.

Joshua should've dropped the belt, fought in a tune-up and then cashed out against Fury for ten times the money he probably made taking a loss to Usyk.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945580#Comment_117945580

Wouldn't surprise me if he decides to take a warm up fight instead of the rematch & hopes some else takes care of Usyk ,Very hard to duck the fight as champion but now he can say he needs one fight to get the fire back or some other bullsh*t

Losing to Usyk twice in a row could be really really damaging , he'd be completely out of titles shots for maybe 2 years depending on how the other fights go,

walshb

Guys, him and Usyk will rematch Feb/March/April 2022, and hopefully then the winner faces whomever wins Oct 9...

For me there is eff all else of real interest.....

Too much analyzing here. It' a boxing match. A rematch. Been happening for centuries. Sometimes the loser comes back and wins/loses/draws.

AJ strikes me a s a person who really wants the chance to give it another try here.

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945715#Comment_117945715

It is funny when the A-side thinks they're being clever putting an immediate rematch clause in the contract only to realise they've now backed themselves into a corner and have no way clear way out of a rematch they won't win. Should’ve just left it as a standard mandatory, taken the loss and rebuilt from elsewhere.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945858#Comment_117945858

Who we all got in Fury v Wilder,

Wilder such a bollox to pick against just one is all he needs ,

For his talk of a death on his record i hope he gets flattened in every fight he ever has ,

Morrison J

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945871#Comment_117945871

Hard to know where either fighters head is really at but can't pick against Fury. Think he might do it lop-sided on points this time.

Fury > Usyk >>>>Wilder >> Joshua

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945871#Comment_117945871

So difficult a call due to the punch power of Wilder....I am 0-3 with Fury in big fights, and 0-4 overall. I think Fury can negate Wilder and smother him for the stoppage...

But, something tells me that Wilder wants this so so so much, and this may mean we see a ridiculously committed and focused Wilder

There should be no surprise if Wilder KOs Fury. Dislike both them, but Fury a wee bit more!!!

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117945947#Comment_117945947

I don't think Wilders chance of winning have changed since the last fight or even if he is focused or not for him its always going to be just about landing one big shot,

I think Fury has to do what he done last time and that's get on top of Wilder & tire him so that big shots not available after 3 rounds, One thng is Wilder knows what's coming now ,

Iv seen loads of clips of Wilder's camp & I'm convinced Scott is a con man ,

Everything time you hear him speak to Wilder everything is amazing you go , your the best, just gassing him up like he is talking to a kid trying a new sport for the first time, I also seen Wilder say Scott has thought me nothing he has just helped him remember things that's what your dealing with with Wilder an EGO out of control.

Scott been in his camp for years just can't see him changing things enough ,He probably just seen a chance to get paid & knew all he had to do was constantly stroke Wilder's ego to keep the job ,

Cyrus

Wilder is finished folks, his aura is gone,

Fury will walk through him this time around even more comprehensively.

As well as worrying about Furys speed and movement he now also has the added concern that Fury can and will hurt him, his only chance is a punchers chance and i dont see Fury giving him that chance.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946042#Comment_117946042

All its takes is one ,

loyatemu

the previous fight was so one-sided, so utterly dominated by Fury, it's really difficult to see a different result in the forthcoming fight. Sure Wilder has a puncher's chance but Fury didn't give him any opportunities to get a punch near him last time; it's only likely to be different this time if Fury isn't fully committed (which is always a possibility).

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946084#Comment_117946084

well you say that but it hasnt been the case against fury, he caught him clean in the 12th in the first fight with another flush shot as he fell and he still got up.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946118#Comment_117946118

He actually did, Wilder landed a huge right hand in the first or second i can't recall but Fury said it hurt like f*ck , he manged to just roll it enough ,

Blanco100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117944862#Comment_117944862

Your analysis is spot on. Cannot for the life of me understand the mentality people have that Joshua "left that one behind". He was outclassed.

Like yourself, I actually posted on here that Usyk wins this convincingly. Joshua has not faced a peak elite fighter in order to gauge his level. He is a one dimensional HW, extremely vulnerable due to the worst combination of suspect chin and lack of a 12 round gas tank.

It was inevitable that Usyk was going to make him work for every minute of every round. Usyk and his team watched this guy and knew his weaknesses. He was more aggressive here than against Chisora so that is saying something.

So many people blinkered when it comes to Joshua it's unbelievable. He is what he is, top 3 HW from this generation but the fact he can be beaten multiple ways is a huge black mark against him.

Wlad had no chin but his IQ allowed him to have success fighting by protecting it. Joshua for me has no chin, no stamina and no ring IQ under pressure and those are some pretty key components to be lacking.

Some highlight reel KOs against Dillian Whyte, washed up Wlad, Povetkin, Pulev, Martin, Breazeale etc... Don't change my mind. If anything it's brilliant work by match room to generate that kind of hype, but it's a really crap talent pool when youre staying away from Fury and Wilder.

First serious world class name and he was outclassed.

Unfortunately he's just not that good.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946133#Comment_117946133

This is true

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117946156#Comment_117946156

I agree with you both that Usyk is a better fighter than AJ & he outclassed AJ

I also think its correct to say AJ went about the fight in the wrong manner & could do it differently to give himself a better chance of wining that not saying it works but at least he'd have a chance,

Every on here knows iv never been a fan of AJ but surely you can still see how he didn't fight to his own strengths ,Now it might not have mattered but it made no sense for him to fight the way he did,

I think most poster realise how good Usyk was & what happened but also where baffled at AJ's approach & how he just stuck with it, Go out on your shield trying to win