Heavyweight Boxing

fonecrusher1

ACAguy wrote: »

Fights looking likely or done for Q1. Predictions please.

Fury Wilder 22nd Feb

Fury gets knocked out in the 10th. He'll avoid Wilders power easily in the first few rounds because he'll be fresh but as the fight progresses he'll make mistakes.

yourdeadwright

Do you think Ben Davis will have any input in this camp he must have studied Wilder for years now, Surley he'd have some good imput

walshb

Very little input to be had...

A monkey could give Fury the game plan...

Do as good as you can, and try not to get knocked out...

Maybe a lil word like, every so often really dig in...you might surprise yourself!

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Very little input to be had...

A monkey could give Fury the game plan...

Do as good as you can, and try not to get knocked out...

Maybe a lil word like, every so often really dig in...you might surprise yourself!

Your rally think he was that bad? He brought Fury from obesity to beating Wilder last time (we all know he won)
So by your insight this one should be a walk in the park with a proper trainer?
I think your not giving Ben the credit he deserves he done a great job, I recall after the fight he broke down all the little movements Wilder does before each shot so Tyson would know what was coming, He really did do his homework

walshb

I never commented at all on Davis!

nacho libre

I just watched the Fury press confrence this afternoon. Wilder seemed confident and relaxed, also he had a couple of wry comments about Fury. Maybe Finkel fed him some new lines, as they were funny and insightful - a nice change from his usual gibberish

Bobby Baccala

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Your rally think he was that bad? He brought Fury from obesity to beating Wilder last time (we all know he won)
So by your insight this one should be a walk in the park with a proper trainer?
I think your not giving Ben the credit he deserves he done a great job, I recall after the fight he broke down all the little movements Wilder does before each shot so Tyson would know what was coming, He really did do his homework

Speak for yourself buddy we don’t all know he won. In fact most refs wouldn’t have even counted him after that knockdown in the 12th.

Davison obviously didn’t do enough homework because his fighter was dropped twice and barely made it to the end of the fight. Getting his fighter in shape and fully sharp was a bare minimum requirement really so I dunno why that deserves praise, my local coach could probably achieve the same for most boxers.

nacho libre

Bobby Baccala wrote: »

Speak for yourself buddy we don’t all know he won. In fact most refs wouldn’t have even counted him after that knockdown in the 12th.

Davison obviously didn’t do enough homework because his fighter was dropped twice and barely made it to the end of the fight.

You do have a point about the knockdown, if that happened to a domestic level fighter the ref would have waved it off immediately.
However I don't think Davidson can be held accountabe for Fury tiring after a long lay off. I believe a sharper Fury would not have been caught with those shots late on

walshb

It’s rather simple to me:

I wouldn’t overly praise Davison for Fury’s performances, or overly criticise him for Fury’s performances. It’s just very, so-so!

yourdeadwright

Bobby Baccala wrote: »

Speak for yourself buddy we don’t all know he won. In fact most refs wouldn’t have even counted him after that knockdown in the 12th.

Davison obviously didn’t do enough homework because his fighter was dropped twice and barely made it to the end of the fight. Getting his fighter in shape and fully sharp was a bare minimum requirement really so I dunno why that deserves praise, my local coach could probably achieve the same for most boxers.

Let's be honest when it ended everyone thought Fury had done it, In my eyes he won more round and quite easily, Ye there was close rounds but one I thought Fury won,

So you think the fight was solely down to Fury, do you think hell win this time?

walshb

List the rds he won, so?

I recall a fair few were difficult to score for either man..

Saying this, it's entirely ok for that fight to be a draw, when you consider two 10-8 rds for Wilder...

So, Wilder wins the two where the KDs were scored, both by 10-8.

Are we saying it is not possible that Wilder could be given 2-3 other rds via 10-9?

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

List the rds he won, so?

I recall a fair few were difficult to score for either man..

Saying this, it's entirely ok for that fight to be a draw, when you consider two 10-8 rds for Wilder...

So, Wilder wins the two where the KDs were scored, both by 10-8.

Are we saying it is not possible that Wilder could be given 2-3 other rds via 10-9?

Watching it back the second time I had given Wilder one other round , I cant recall I think it was round 2 or3 ( was a while ago)

I agree there was some very close round but one's in my opinion Fury won ,
Again its open to opinion so no right or wrong,

I guess my whole point is these people who give Davison no credit , Do they think Fury dies better this time with a new coach ?

If it was draw when he had a brutal coach surely he wins with a good one ?

I think Wilder wins this time about round 7 or 8 but I hope Fury beats him, Reason is I think he wins is its a very late change for Fury and I think its to late to be trying new things , He nearly won last time so id have done the exact same but course ud imagine he'd be stronger ,fitter, sharper this time to have no lapses

Unless he was thinking he wasn't sharper or fitter and that's the problem

walshb

I think, for this type match, you are placing too much emphasis on a coach...

Not saying coaches cannot make differences....

Fury either wins, or he doesn't. The guy is a complete instinctive/reactive type boxer...he fights right in the moment. Similar to Muhammad Ali.

He will do what he does in the moment. Adjust, react, feint, lead, pull back, attack and everything else all there in the moment....

He already knows Wilder well. Shared 36 minutes with him....

Is Wilder going to be that much different this time around? Probably not.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

I think, for this type match, you are placing too much emphasis on a coach...

Not saying coaches cannot make differences....

Fury either wins, or he doesn't. The guy is a complete instinctive/reactive type boxer...he fights right in the moment. Similar to Muhammad Ali.

He will do what he does in the moment. Adjust, react, feint, lead, pull back, attack and everything else all there in the moment....

He already knows Wilder well. Shared 36 minutes with him....

Is Wilder going to be that much different this time around? Probably not.

In a way your correct but when your fighting a guy who has one obvious tool and one obvious danger I think the coach is hugely important,

For two reason working on a game plan to nullify that weapon and for getting his fighter to stick to that game plan ,

Again I think the game plan was perfect last time , the only issue was Fury tired so the application of it was not quite perfect, Moments before he got dropped Ben was screaming at him that he was getting lazy and diverting form the plan ,

it'll be very interesting to see how Fury goes about the early rounds this time,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

In a way your correct but when your fighting a guy who has one obvious tool and one obvious danger I think the coach is hugely important,

For two reason working on a game plan to nullify that weapon and for getting his fighter to stick to that game plan ,

Again I think the game plan was perfect last time , the only issue was Fury tired so the application of it was not quite perfect, Moments before he got dropped Ben was screaming at him that he was getting lazy and diverting form the plan ,

it'll be very interesting to see how Fury goes about the early rounds this time,

There is no perfect game-plan, as was shown, because Fury was dropped heavily in rd 12...

And, as mentioned, there are times when that KD in rd 12 would have been waved off.

All goes back to Fury either winning or not. How he wins and loses will happen during the fight.

He wasn't getting lazy. He was simply caught hard. It was rd 12. He is not a machine. He is a human, and humans get tired, make mistakes, and get caught; even when not making mistakes and not being tired you can get caught...

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

There is no perfect game-plan, as was shown, because Fury was dropped heavily in rd 12...

And, as mentioned, there are times when that KD in rd 12 would have been waved off.

All goes back to Fury either winning or not. How he wins and loses will happen during the fight.

He wasn't getting lazy. He was simply caught hard. It was rd 12. He is not a machine. He is a human, and humans get tired, make mistakes, and get caught; even when not making mistakes and not being tired you can get caught...

The game plan was perfect , it was just the application that wasn't ,as Fury tired in the 12th and strayed form the plan , Listen to corner mic he started straying form the plan no question

Your contradicting yourself there, Yes he got tired and yes he made a mistake, no ones disputing that,

I'm saying ud imagine he'd be much sharper and fitter giving how he's been back for longer now, So if the plan worked bar being caught in the 12th why change it

Any way we will find out pretty soon if Ben had an impact

walshb

Like I said, there is no perfect game-plan that you can guarantee that works....

If there was, here's mine: Fury, go out and win. Don't get knocked out....

very simple plan that....

You are reading far too much int this. It's boxing, where two men are very closely connected to each other, trying to hit each there....

No such thing as "perfect" here...

And, there was always a chance that Fury got caught in any of the rds, 1-12, not just 12...

At this stage I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.....

Fury either wins, or he doesn't. He will do his best with his talents and skills and physiology to get the win. Wilder, the same....their corner-men may play a part, but the result boils down to what the men do in the moment more than anything else....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Like I said, there is no perfect game-plan that you can guarantee that works....

If there was, here's mine: Fury, go out and win. Don't get knocked out....

very simple plan that....

You are reading far too much int this. It's boxing, where two men are very closely connected to each other, trying to hit each there....

No such thing as "perfect" here...

And, there was always a chance that Fury got caught in any of the rds, 1-12, not just 12...

At this stage I am not even sure what point you are trying to make.....

Fury either wins, or he doesn't. He will do his best with his talents and skills and physiology to get the win. Wilder, the same....their corner-men may play a part, but the result boils down to what the men do in the moment more than anything else....

Your simplifying it way to much, its not a fight , its boxing match ,

You look at your opponent and see his strong point an weakness and work on how to exploit them ,

Yes it boils down what the men do that why you work hard in your camp to make sure you know what not to do and most importantly don't put yourself in danger,

Look perfect example just gone, AJ v Ruiz first fight no game plan went down the road your talking about just go in there and finish him and AJ got knocked out , Second fight game plan and tactic's stuck to them and he wins ,

Its not a fight its a boxing match

walshb

Silly semantics.....

It's a boxing match, or a fight.....

Are you watching the fight tonight? We all know that that means.......rarely ever hear "Are you watching the boxing match tonight."

I used both words....boxing and fight.

Fury will win or lose more because of what he does, doesn't do, or what Wilder does, doesn't do....

Davison being absent.....? Meh!

I have Wilder in 6 no matter what Fury does or doesn't do....

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

I have Wilder in 6 no matter what Fury does or doesn't do....

I don't think so, i think a fight fit Fury will be too sharp and slick... Yes, it's true you can get caught in any fight, but you are more likely to get caught when fatigue sets in, given Fury had been out for so long, and the style in which he was fighting, its no surprise he got tired.

It maybe that Fury, despite what he says publicily, actually privately believes what you and yourdeadwright are putting forward, so this is why he is looking to knock out Wilder early on, as he fears getting caught again, then again maybe that's not the plan at all.
I do think though it's a bad sign when fighters change trainers so much , despite what Fury said to justify it. If he were to lose by ko, will he say he did not have enough time with his new trainer or accept that Wilder was the better man on the night.

yourdeadwright

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't think so, i think a fight fit Fury will be too sharp and slick... Yes, it's true you can get caught in any fight, but you are more likely to get caught when fatigue sets in, given Fury had been out for so long, and the style in which he was fighting, its no surprise he got tired.

It maybe that Fury, despite what he says publicily, actually privately believes what you and yourdeadwright are putting forward, so this is why he is looking to knock out Wilder early on, as he fears getting caught again, then again maybe that's not the plan at all.
I do think though it's a bad sign when fighters change trainers so much , despite what Fury said to justify it. If he were to lose by ko, will he say he did not have enough time with his new trainer or accept that Wilder was the better man on the night.

One thing that could be huge is that Wilder has already experienced Fury ,
I think he's a fighter you'd have to fight once to then work out ,
The element of surprise from his awkward slick style is lessoned the second time around .

I truly hope Fury wins just because I want to see hi, and AJ and I want it to be champion v champion

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't think so, i think a fight fit Fury will be too sharp and slick... Yes, it's true you can get caught in any fight, but you are more likely to get caught when fatigue sets in, given Fury had been out for so long, and the style in which he was fighting, its no surprise he got tired.

It maybe that Fury, despite what he says publicily, actually privately believes what you and yourdeadwright are putting forward, so this is why he is looking to knock out Wilder early on, as he fears getting caught again, then again maybe that's not the plan at all.
I do think though it's a bad sign when fighters change trainers so much , despite what Fury said to justify it. If he were to lose by ko, will he say he did not have enough time with his new trainer or accept that Wilder was the better man on the night.

Simple: With a guy like Wilder, one shot does the trick. That trick could be anywhere from rd 1 to 12.....

I also would not be surprised if Fury got the job done inside the distance.

It's that type fight.....

We can analyse all day, but unless Fury is really intent on not getting hit, and spoils like a lunatic, then there is every chance Wilder finds the chin at any stage; and also, every chance if Fury commits and throws some decent punches, that he finds Wilder's chin.

Yes, I am covering both bases here, but that is how I see it. I am not hugely confident that either man wins....

Only thing I am confident in is that Wilder knocks Fury out IF he lands hard and clean. I do not believe that Fury has the chin needed, notwithstanding his rise in rd 12 after 10 seconds down....

fonecrusher1

walshb wrote: »

Only thing I am confident in is that Wilder knocks Fury out IF he lands hard and clean. I do not believe that Fury has the chin needed, notwithstanding his rise in rd 12 after 10 seconds down....

Or that Fury has a snowballs chance in hell of knocking out Wilder. That he keeps saying he's going to do. For show value of course.

Cyrus

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Or that Fury has a snowballs chance in hell of knocking out Wilder. That he keeps saying he's going to do. For show value of course.

you dont think fury could knock wilder out? why not?

walshb

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Or that Fury has a snowballs chance in hell of knocking out Wilder. That he keeps saying he's going to do. For show value of course.

I think it's more that a snowball's chance, and I have been kind of plugging it here....

Fury isn't that heavy a hitter, but he can still hurt if he lands. Wilder, I feel, is a little weak of body and chin, and a really well placed clean connection, and possible follow up (on a very wobbly Wilder), who knows...

Of course, Fury has to be careful. But so does Wilder

It's HW boxing. It should be riddled with risk!!!!!!

nacho libre

yourdeadwright wrote: »

One thing that could be huge is that Wilder has already experienced Fury ,
I think he's a fighter you'd have to fight once to then work out ,
The element of surprise from his awkward slick style is lessoned the second time around .

I truly hope Fury wins just because I want to see hi, and AJ and I want it to be champion v champion[/quot

nacho libre

yourdeadwright wrote: »

One thing that could be huge is that Wilder has already experienced Fury ,
I think he's a fighter you'd have to fight once to then work out ,
The element of surprise from his awkward slick style is lessoned the second time around .

I truly hope Fury wins just because I want to see hi, and AJ and I want it to be champion v champion

Wilder experienced Ortiz before. Ortiz was beating him well in the rematch till he got tired and started slowing down. If Ortiz had been a few years younger i think he'd have gone the 12 rounds without being caught clean. So this is why i believe Fury, if he is in peak physical condition, can go 12 rounds without being tagged cleanly, however , if he does get caught there won't be no undertaker like recovery this time.

yourdeadwright

nacho libre wrote: »

Wilder experienced Ortiz before. Ortiz was beating him well in the rematch till he got tired and started slowing down. If Ortiz had been a few years younger i think he'd have gone the 12 rounds without being caught clean. So this is why i believe Fury, if he is in peak physical condition, can go 12 rounds without being tagged cleanly, however , if he does get caught there won't be no undertaker like recovery this time.

Wilder fought Ortiz completely different the second fight and

He may have been down on the cards but he was never hurt like he was the first time around ,

He actually learned what you just said,
That Ortiz is a good boxer that could hurt him early so he had to take seriously but is old and would slow down so he was way more patient in the second fight and knew he just had to wait for his time ,

He 100% showed he learned form the first fight and changed his gamelan,

fonecrusher1

Cyrus wrote: »

you dont think fury could knock wilder out? why not?

I think its highly unlikely. Show me one fight (Other than vrs Cunningham) where Fury knocked his opponent 'spark' out as they say. Wilder style. Opponent down, out and not getting up.

At best Fury might daze him. He did that in the first fight v Wilder but it wasn't significant damage. In my opinion and as i'm sure most of you know Fury is a better boxer in pretty much every way bar knock out ability. Not TKO I mean knocking guys clean out.

And by the way I want Fury to win.

walshb

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I think its highly unlikely. Show me one fight (Other than vrs Cunningham) where Fury knocked his opponent 'spark' out as they say. Wilder style. Opponent down, out and not getting up.

At best Fury might daze him. He did that in the first fight v Wilder but it wasn't significant damage. In my opinion and as i'm sure most of you know Fury is a better boxer in pretty much every way bar knock out ability. Not TKO I mean knocking guys clean out.

And by the way I want Fury to win.

I agree with this, but also disagree.

Logic, and history and visuals would back this up...

But a clean heavy shot on man (from a person not known to be a powerful hitter) can surprise...

Fury is 250 + lbs....

May not be a lights out KO, but a real wobbler, and then maybe a referee stoppage due to Wilder being too dazed, or even a follow up assault on an out of it Wilder...