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Heavyweight Boxing

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    #4652
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,753 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Wilder fought Ortiz completely different the second fight and

    He may have been down on the cards but he was never hurt like he was the first time around ,

    He actually learned what you just said,
    That Ortiz is a good boxer that could hurt him early so he had to take seriously but is old and would slow down so he was way more patient in the second fight and knew he just had to wait for his time ,

    He 100% showed he learned form the first fight and changed his gamelan,

    All that is true, but he can't rely on Fury running out of steam as Ortiz did.
    Fury, if he is in peak physical condition, should be able to go 12 rounds without leaving himself exposed as Ortiz did. You could see Ortiz was tiring from around the fifth round. I knew then it was only a matter of time till Wilder found an opening.

    It maybe that Fury is looking to earn Wilder's respect this time around, as he may feel Wilder will be inclined to take more risks against him 2nd time round given Fury is a less dangerous puncher than Ortiz. I think Fury is most at risk of losing if he does plant his feet and tries to take Wilder out. If it's the Fury we saw against Wlad, I believe he will go 12 rounds, but he may not the get the decision


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    #4653
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,753 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    walshb wrote: »
    May not be a lights out KO, but a real wobbler, and then maybe a referee stoppage due to Wilder being too dazed, or even a follow up assault on an out of it Wilder...

    In their first fight Fury caught Wilder with some shots that a heavier puncher would have finished him with. Imagine if Joshua had caught him with some of those punches, Wilder would be down and probably not getting back up

    I really hope Fury is not serious about going for the knock out, because if he
    is looking to set his feet, its a very risky strategy for him.


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    #4654
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    nacho libre wrote: »
    In their first fight Fury caught Wilder with some shots that a heavier puncher would have finished him with. Imagine if Joshua had caught him with some of those punches, Wilder would be down and probably not getting back up

    I really hope Fury is not serious about going for the knock out, because if he
    is looking to set his feet, its a very risky strategy for him.

    So, you'd rather he tiptoed around for 12 rds hoping to survive?

    Why is it not possible to set one's feet and hit somewhat hard?

    He's suppressed to be an elite HW for chrissake.

    It takes all of a split second for a talented man to do this. Set feet, aim, shoot hard and see what happens....It's not all danger being offensive and committed, and it can be just as dangerous concentrating so hard to not get clipped when you commit.

    Am I really expecting too much form an elite HW boxer?

    Not saying he goes in wild and reckless trying to blow Wilder away, but surely if there is/are an opening(s), he can exploit them and actually deliver some telling shots?

    I am not saying he cannot tiptoe around and peck and poke and steal, He can do this, too...but, every so often, hit the opponent clean and hard.....

    That, or tip toe around like a over-lumped sissy trying to peck and poke and steal a win, all the while hoping to god not to get knocked out..


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    #4655
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    walshb wrote: »
    May not be a lights out KO, but a real wobbler, and then maybe a referee stoppage due to Wilder being too dazed, or even a follow up assault on an out of it Wilder...

    I agree with you but the point i'm making is a lights out KO. Fury's never been about that. Yes he has the ability to cause prolonged, sustained damage during his fights that stop his opponent. Yes he does daze and pummel fighters when he's in the zone but he's not a KO artist. All this talk of KO from him is for PPV build up nonsense. He's not going to bore potential PPV buyers with how he's going to strategically avoid Wilder for 12 Rnds.
    nacho libre wrote: »
    I really hope Fury is not serious about going for the knock out, because if he
    is looking to set his feet, its a very risky strategy for him.

    I think its total BS that he's going to go down that route with Wilder. Its mind games from him nothing more. Fury and his entire camp know fine well if he decides to stand and go toe to toe he's finished. And it would be completely against how he wins fights. Its like telling a trained chef to cut meat with a hammer.


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    #4656
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    walshb wrote: »
    So, you'd rather he tiptoed around for 12 rds hoping to survive?

    Why is it not possible to set one's feet and hit somewhat hard?

    He's suppressed to be an elite HW for chrissake.

    It takes all of a split second for a talented man to do this. Set feet, aim, shoot hard and see what happens....It's not all danger being offensive and committed, and it can be just as dangerous concentrating so hard to not get clipped when you commit.

    Am I really expecting too much form an elite HW boxer?

    Not saying he goes in wild and reckless trying to blow Wilder away, but surely if there is/are an opening(s), he can exploit them and actually deliver some telling shots?

    I am not saying he cannot tiptoe around and peck and poke and steal, He can do this, too...but, every so often, hit the opponent clean and hard.....

    That, or tip toe around like a over-lumped sissy trying to peck and poke and steal a win, all the while hoping to god not to get knocked out..

    His best chance of wining is do what he did last time but be in physically better shape ,

    Everyone else has tried your way and got ko'd

    No other heavy weight can slip slide and spoil like Fury ,

    In my opinion he should do the same as the first fight but just be in better physical condition ,that alone would mean he hitting a bit harder than the first time around without even trying anything new,

    Where is the logic behind a man not knowing for his power sitting down on shots and becoming more static against an man who is know for 1 shot power ,

    Rinse and repeat the first fight just in better shape


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    #4657
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    So, are we saying that Tyson Fury is not capable of (every so often) nailing Wilder hard? It's too risky?

    Jaysus, what sorry state of affairs the sport is in...

    That he has to try and peck and poke and tickle his way through the whole fight, hoping he doesn't get knocked out.

    He still has a risk of getting knocked out this way...probably more, because the more time he and Wilder are boxing, the more time Wilder has to connect...

    Serious over-analyzing the fight here.....serious risk being applied to Fury for maybe committing to some shots with power...committing with tickling not risly?


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    #4658
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I hope Tyson knocks him out now to prove me right!:p


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    #4659
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    walshb wrote: »
    So, are we saying that Tyson Fury is not capable of (every so often) nailing Wilder hard? It's too risky?

    Jaysus, what sorry state of affairs the sport is in...

    That he has to try and peck and poke and tickle his way through the whole fight, hoping he doesn't get knocked out.

    He still has a risk of getting knocked out this way...probably more, because the more time he and Wilder are boxing, the more time Wilder has to connect...

    Serious over-analyzing the fight here.....serious risk being applied to Fury for maybe committing to some shots with power...committing with tickling not risly?

    The sport isn't about knocking people out its about wining in whatever way you can , Points , TKO , KO , whatever
    ,
    Did you notice AJ changed his approach of just trying to knock people out and became a 2 time world champion in the process ?

    When you say "HOPE" he doesn't get knocked out ? What kinda nonsense is that every fighter tries to avoid being knocked out ,

    To say poke or tickle is also nonsense, he made Widler back up more than once last time

    He went 12 rounds last time at probably about 75 % fitness,

    If he stand still to lay it on Wilder he's toast


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    #4660
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yes, winning, And maybe his best chance to win is to try and actually hit his opponent hard and clean....

    Going in with the mindset, that you seem to be pushing, that he should not ever plant his feet and hit Wilder hard....that's absolute nonsense, and shows next to no confidence in Fury's abilities....

    It's nuance. You are missing this. I am advocating that he mixes it up. Adjusts, changes, and does all he can to get the win......

    One of the things any decent coach here should be saying, like Andy Lee is saying, is that Tyson needs to get to Wilder and get his respect. Hurt him if he can....the nuance, that seems to be lost here, is that he can do this without being reckless and careless, and abandoning his other skills...

    Going in and doing very similar to what he did last time could also get him the win. I am not saying that it cannot. I am saying that I believe that he needs a little change, a little more, and a little more zip and venom, that may well get him over the line, and over it quicker...

    Finally: I am not just advocating a KO type win. If Fury can hit Wilder hard to get respect, it can completely change how Wilder fights. He could dismantle Wilder's game. Wilder reluctant to commit more and more, allowing Fury to get a points win, as well..

    Huge difference if Wilder senses and knows that Fury isn't hurting him compared to him feeling heavy leather and being hurt..


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    #4661
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    walshb wrote: »
    I hope Tyson knocks him out now to prove me right!:p

    To be honest with you i'd be delighted if he did. The amount of bullsh!t Wilder talks. I respect him and all but dear god does he waffle on and on.


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    #4662
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    To be honest with you i'd be delighted if he did. The amount of bullsh!t Wilder talks. I respect him and all but dear god does he waffle on and on.

    Fury is even worse with the sh1t he comes out with..


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    #4663
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    walshb wrote: »
    Fury is even worse with the sh1t he comes out with..

    Ah but Wilder goes on as if he's some sort of preacher. He's a KO artist. Lets not get too philosophical.

    And i'd say it to his face. Well to his face on the telly. And then run away....

    :pac:


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    #4664
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Ah but Wilder goes on as if he's some sort of preacher. He's a KO artist. Lets not get too philosophical.

    And i'd say it to his face. Well to his face on the telly. And then run away....

    :pac:

    At least Fury is funny ,
    Wilder waffles on so much he ends up contradicting what he said at the start , Also he will always go into a whisper for effect it does my head in ,

    I'm convinced us and the brits are far better at winding people up because its part of our daily life taking the piss out of each other, American's always sound corny and scripted


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    #4665
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    He's not funny when he's being a homophobe' and a misogynist!

    I always found that he seems to be trying too hard to be all philosophical and deep and articulate....

    Comes across all too contrived.


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    #4666
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    walshb wrote: »
    I always found that he seems to be trying too hard to be all philosophical and deep and articulate....

    Comes across all too contrived.

    He knocks people out for a living ffs.

    :D:p


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    #4667
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Back to the boxing. Of course Fury can plant his feet and hit wilder hard. If he can put his hands behind his back and stick the tongue out then he can pick a moment to hammer in a straight right and follow it with a hook. Wilders face was glowing bravely by the end of the last fight. I’m looking forward to it


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    #4668
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Back to the boxing. Of course Fury can plant his feet and hit wilder hard.

    So, why is it just you and me, who seem to think that he can do this, and that he should (at times) do this? And that his doing this may not see him suffer, and that it may see him succeed.


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    #4669
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    walshb wrote: »
    So, why is it just you and me, who seem to think that he can do this, and that he should (at times) do this? And that his doing this may not see him suffer, and that it may see him succeed.

    Fury does do it. But he's clever doing it. And its usually only very briefly. But if he thinks he's going to out-brawl Wilder he wont last more than 2 rounds.


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    #4670
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Fury does do it. But he's clever doing it. And its usually only very briefly. But if he thinks he's going to out-brawl Wilder he wont last more than 2 rounds.

    Reckelss type swinging/brawling could be suicide for Fury...

    I don't think he, or anyone would advocate trying this.


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    #4671
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    walshb wrote: »
    So, why is it just you and me, who seem to think that he can do this, and that he should (at times) do this? And that his doing this may not see him suffer, and that it may see him succeed.

    Its not that I don't think he can do this,
    Its that I think he DID do this in moments in the first fight and that he should stick to the doing it at the same frequency in the second fight,

    There no need to change what he done but just be sharper , stronger and fitter ,


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    #4672
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    fonecrusher1 wrote: »
    Fury does do it. But he's clever doing it. And its usually only very briefly. But if he thinks he's going to out-brawl Wilder he wont last more than 2 rounds.

    Nail on the head there ,


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    #4673
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Nail on the head there ,

    It would be nail on the head if folks were advocating that he brawl with Wilder

    Nobody is advocating this.


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    #4674
    fonecrusher1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭fonecrusher1


    walshb wrote: »
    I don't think he, or anyone would advocate trying this.

    Well he was in one of the press conferences. But I think it was a direct retaliation to people saying he's just going to duck, dive, slip and spoil Wilder for 12 Rnds. Its PPV bait. But I get it. Its part of the game now. Bigger PPV figures means more money for everyone.


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    #4675
    selectamatic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    Tbh I don't think wilder would like to be in a brawl either. At least not in the stereotypical fight in a phonebox manner. His inside game is very poor.

    A straight shootout type fight fought at mid to long range is his forte.


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    #4676
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    selectamatic wrote: »
    Tbh I don't think wilder would like to be in a brawl either. At least not in the stereotypical fight in a phonebox manner. His inside game is very poor.

    A straight shootout type fight fought at mid to long range is his forte.

    I was thinking the same thing, He is not a brawler, and actually shies away from a toe to toe type fight...He is very careful, measured, methodical; albeit in an awkward looking sense.

    He doesn't throw any really effective and clean combinations. It's long, rangy, flaying type shooting.

    You mention inside game. Another area I would be pressing Fury only go to work inside and shoot shots......he is decent in close. Don't be 9all the time( holding and leaning and spoiling)


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    #4677
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    So, why is it just you and me, who seem to think that he can do this, and that he should (at times) do this? And that his doing this may not see him suffer, and that it may see him succeed.

    How many times is it going to have to be clarified that we’re not suggesting fury go gung-ho?!
    To win the fight he can’t just run scared the whole time and if he does and tries to nick rounds with an odd feather then I hope wilder gets the decision.
    I think fury will stick it to wilder and may well get the ko


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    #4678
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    How many times is it going to have to be clarified that we’re not suggesting fury go gung-ho?!
    To win the fight he can’t just run scared the whole time and if he does and tries to nick rounds with an odd feather then I hope wilder gets the decision.
    I think fury will stick it to wilder and may well get the ko

    Do you think he ran scared the first fight ?


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    #4679
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    How many times is it going to have to be clarified that we’re not suggesting fury go gung-ho?!
    To win the fight he can’t just run scared the whole time and if he does and tries to nick rounds with an odd feather then I hope wilder gets the decision.
    I think fury will stick it to wilder and may well get the ko

    Indeed. I am exhausted trying to make this same point

    Advising Fury to get respect, hit harder, plant feet every so often.....and this gets interpreted as advising him to brawl and be reckless and be overly risky!


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    #4680
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,600 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Do you think he ran scared the first fight ?

    I don't think he did, but he wasn't offensively effective enough, and I believe that he could have put on a more clean and effective and substantial offence on Wilder...

    He kind of played it a bit too safe, and it meant that the rds weren't as clear winning as they could possibly have been.


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    #4681
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    I don't think he did, but he wasn't offensively effective enough, and I believe that he could have put on a more clean and effective and substantial offence on Wilder...

    I agree with this. Those who think he should just copy the first fight would lead to a rude awakening I fear. He needs to be better and more offensive to win. NOT RECKLESS


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