Heavyweight Boxing

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

I saw the fight , price shouldn’t be troubling any top level fighter , and he had povetkin all over the shop.

I think fury will beat Joshua by tko, within 8 , if they fight next year .

Hold on..

Are you saying Price had him all over the shop from that single punch I mentioned, or all over the shop several times?

It was ONE shot...

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

Hold on..

Are you saying Price had him all over the shop from that single punch I mentioned, or all over the shop several times?

It was ONE shot...

Hold on ....

Yes he was all over the shop from ONE punch

Watch it back

You’ve never seen someone all over the shop from one punch?

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

Hold on ....

Yes he was all over the shop from ONE punch

Watch it back

You’ve never seen someone all over the shop from one punch?

I am not saying that he wasn’t wobbled...

I am saying it was one single incident...that same shot would have shook up almost anyone...

He then got knocked out.

You seem to want to make it out that AP was battered from pillar to post..

One single shot...

For comparison: Ali was badly shook rd 2 v Shavers..

Tyson clearly wobbled rd 1 v Bruno

Loads other examples of single shots wobbling/badly hurting fighters..

That doesn’t then mean they are now not durable..

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

I am not saying that he wasn’t wobbled...

I am saying it was one single incident...that same shot would have shook up almost anyone...

He then got knocked out.

You seem to want to make it out that AP was battered from pillar to post..

One single shot...

That’s your perception of what I’m saying it’s not what I’m saying .

If you think David price should be wobbling top durable heavyweights that’s ok, just come out and say it.

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

I am not saying that he wasn’t wobbled...

I am saying it was one single incident...that same shot would have shook up almost anyone...

He then got knocked out.

You seem to want to make it out that AP was battered from pillar to post..

One single shot...

For comparison: Ali was badly shook rd 2 v Shavers..

Tyson clearly wobbled rd 1 v Bruno

Loads other examples of single shots wobbling fighters..

That doesn’t then mean they are now not durable..

Povetkin was durable in his prime, as was Tyson , he isn’t now , his prime is probably 5 -7 years passed. Tyson wasn’t durable past his prime either.

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

That’s your perception of what I’m saying it’s not what I’m saying .

If you think David price should be wobbling top durable heavyweights that’s ok, just come out and say it.

What?

Are you saying a big heavy handed HW that lands a clean shot is not allowed wobble people?

Price is muck, but he has heavy hands..

Seriously, are you serious here?

Bruno wasn’t all that great, but he could punch. Tyson will attest to that..

I am not sure what point you are making..

AP got caught with a clean punch from a big HW man, and it shook him up..that is all there is to this. That same thing could happen to any man..

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

What?

Are you saying a big heavy handed HW that lands a clean shot is not allowed wobble people?

Price is muck, but he has heavy hands..

Seriously, are you serious here?

Bruno wasn’t all that great, but he could punch. Tyson will attest to that..

I am not sure what point you are making..

AP got caught with a clean lunch from a big HW man, and it shook him up..that is all there is to this. That same thing could happen to any man..

Ah look I know you will do this all night and I’m not bothered. In my humble opinion povetkin isn’t and hasn’t been durable for quite some time, you disagree. If David price and dillian whyte aren’t going to convince you then neither am I .

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

Povetkin was durable in his prime, as was Tyson , he isn’t now , his prime is probably 5 -7 years passed. Tyson wasn’t durable past his prime either.

AP was still very durable when he fought AJ

To suggest he was not durable at that time reeks of wanting to not be seen to somehow give any praise to AJs punching that took him out..

Never stopped pre AJ, never stopped post AJ. Fought heap of heavy punchers...

And to suit the “I can’t be seen to give AJ credit,” AP is suddenly not durable from the AJ fight onwards..

House Hunt

walshb wrote: »

I overlooked nothing.

I even made the point before fight 2 that if Fury actually tries more and takes it to Wilder, he could well take him out..

If you were more regular on the forum you’d know this..

Fury in fight 2 was better. Not necessarily because of where he was at, but more his approach and tactics and game plan.

Thanks for confirming my point. You still can't grasp that a man at 30% physically didn't have any choice about what approach to adopt. He wasn't strong enough to go out there with front foot tactics.

To say him being better in fight 2 wasn't necessarily to do with a complete turnaround in physicality is ridiculous.

And I expect him to be in even better shape again the next time out.

walshb

House Hunt wrote: »

Thanks for confirming my point. You still can't grasp that a man at 30% physically didn't have any choice about what approach to adopt. He wasn't strong enough to go out there with front foot tactics.

To say him being better in fight 2 wasn't necessarily to do with a complete turnaround in physicality is ridiculous.

And I expect him to be in even better shape again the next time out.

I did not confirm your point. I refuted it, and offered mine.

And there was a physicality turnaround....as in, he decided to use his physicality a lot more in fight 2.

So, you know exactly this 30 percent lark?

Nonsense....

Stop making out that he went from 30 percent ready to 100 percent, or close to 100 percent ready between fights....pure stupidity

The man fought fight 1 a certain way and fought fight 2 a certain way...

His plan in fight 1 was his plan for fight 1...and it served him well

Maybe he decided that for fight 2, I can take this lad....I don't need to be overly cute and slick and defensive...maybe if I am more aggressive and take the fight to him, I can beat him. Maybe he felt from fight 1, that this is the new way to win....

yourdeadwright

I personally think Wilder would stop AJ and do it very early,

AJ gets hit way to easy and more importantly its how he reacts when he gets hit , or thinks he will be hit ,

We all seen it in the first and even second Ruiz fight he panics and stands up straight and stiff,
Nearly every fight that wasn't a walk over he takes shots ,

AJ is a better boxer overall , better shot selection and so on but in my opinion Wilder lands before AJ does and its good night ,

Also I don't think we will see them fight because Hearn and co know this ,

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

I did not confirm your point. I refuted it, and offered mine.

And there was a physicality turnaround....as in, he decided to use his physicality a lot more in fight 2.

So, you know exactly this 30 percent lark?

Nonsense....

Stop making out that he went from 30 percent ready to 100 percent, or close to 100 percent ready between fights....pure stupidity

The man fought fight 1 a certain way and fought fight 2 a certain way...

His plan in fight 1 was his plan for fight 1...and it served him well

Maybe he decided that for fight 2, I can take this lad....I don't need to be overly cute and slick and defensive...maybe if I am more aggressive and take the fight to him, I can beat him. Maybe he felt from fight 1, that this is the new way to win....

I'm sorry but I cant see how you could even argue against that point it was clear as day that his shape was a problem in the first fight,

His Da was telling everyone before the 2nd fight that he was " as weak as kitten , had a body like tissue " for the first fight and this time it was different,

He was able to change style and game plan because he was physically in much better shape

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I personally think Wilder would stop AJ and do it very early,

AJ gets hit way to easy and more importantly its how he reacts when he gets hit , or thinks he will be hit ,

We all seen it in the first and even second Ruiz fight he panics and stands up straight and stiff,
Nearly every fight that wasn't a walk over he takes shots ,

AJ is a better boxer overall , better shot selection and so on but in my opinion Wilder lands before AJ does and its good night ,

Also I don't think we will see them fight because Hearn and co know this ,

I think we ALL agree here that if Wilder lands hard he knocks AJ out....

Wilder, too, is quite fearful of getting hit, and does not have a great chin....

I would lean 52-48 here for AJ to get in first to score the KO/TKO....

Not sure what type percentages you would have, but anyone being very confident picking either man, seems off to me...

I am leaning with AJ because in this match I think the more neat/tidy and polished punching from AJ finds the target that bit cleaner and earlier...

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm sorry but I cant see how you could even argue against that point it was clear as day that his shape was a problem in the first fight,

His Da was telling everyone before the 2nd fight that he was " as weak as kitten , had a body like tissue " for the first fight and this time it was different,

He was able to change style and game plan because he was physically in much better shape

I never said that his shape in fight 1 was the same for fight 2....

We can't know for certain...yes, maybe he was physically better all over....but this 30 percent lark is juts pie in the sky nonsense....

Bottom line is all we know: in fight 2 his gameplan won him the fight, and his physicality allowed that gameplan to win it...

In fight 1 his gameplan was a lot different, and he got a draw, that well could have been a win....remember, fight 1...unknowns, never been in with Wilder......he was probably very deliberate in trying to avoid the KO shot, hence he was quite defensive, slippy and cautious

So, both fights and plans saw a result....

Just that fight 2 plan was far more effective, and it was a plan I mentioned he should use....he may well have thought that apart from the last rd shot, which he got up from, Wilder was not as dangerous as he had thought, albeit still dangerous. He went out and took the play away, gave Wilder little punching room to unload and smothered him with size and physicality; great plan.......but nobody can say had he decided to do this in fight 1, that it would have failed.

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

Wilder, too, is quite fearful of getting hit, and does not have a great chin....

povetkin is durable but wilder doesnt have a great chin :pac:

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

povetkin is durable but wilder doesnt have a great chin :pac:

He doesn't...he has not proven a great chin......I suspect a heavy clean shot and he is out.

Wobbled badly v Ortiz, and had Ortiz been an AJ type puncher, Wilder was not getting off the hook

Fury, a rather ordinary hitter had Wilder hurts many times.....

Wilder is a KO waiting to happen, and had Fury been even more aggressive when Wilder was in the corner near the end, Fury would have flattened him....Fury was quite "easy" going with his assault near the end....still probably a bit wary of a return from Wilder....and Wilder was still quite groggy....

This is not the sign of anything approaching a great chin.....

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

He doesn't...he has not proven a great chin......I suspect a heavy clean shot and he is out.

Wobbled badly v Ortiz, and had Ortiz been an AJ type puncher, Wilder was not getting off the hook

Fury, a rather ordinary hitter had Wilder hurts many times.....

Wilder is a KO waiting to happen, and had Fury been even more aggressive when Wilder was in the corner near the end, Fury would have flattened him....Fury was quite "easy" going with his assault near the end....still probably a bit wary of a return from Wilder....and Wilder was still quite groggy....

This is not the sign of anything approaching a great chin.....

yet he has never been knocked out

you suspect?

give me a break

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

yet he has never been knocked out

And...

Do you have to be knocked out before one can claim you don't have a great chin?

No disrespect, but it all seems a bit too black and white with you....

Getting stopped, even on your feet, doesn't mean you have a great chin....

It's how a fighter reacts to a clean shot that determines their chin....they don't have to be flat out on their back for the 10 count all the time...

Not sure why you are confused here

One can label a fighter as not having a great chin even if the fighter has never been knocked out (as in flat on his back for a 10 count).

You have now failed to really grasp what durability means and chin means in a boxing sense....there are levels and details and nuance to them.

Not just: "he has never been knocked clean out, hence he can't be seen to not have a great chin...." this would be confusing...

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

And...

Do you have to be knocked out before one can claim you don't have a great chin?

No disrespect, but it all seems a bit too black and white with you....

Getting stopped, even on your feet, doesn't mean you have a great chin....

It's how a fighter reacts to a clean shot that determines their chin....they don't have to be flat out on their back for the 10 count all the time...

Not sure why you are confused here

One can label a fighter as not having a great chin even if the fighter has never been knocked out (as in flat on his back for a 10 count).

You have now failed to really grasp what durability means and chin means in a boxing sense....there are levels and details and nuance to them.

Not just: "he has never been knocked clean out, hence he can't be seen to not have a great chin...." this would be confusing...

you just make it up as you go along and then have the cheek to say im failing to grasp things jesus wept

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

you just make it up as you go along

Make what up?

Does Wilder have a great chin? What is your answer here?

Because, from what I have seen, I don't see how it can be claimed that he does

If anything, what I have seen tells me it is not great, and will be found out

That's just my view....

Could Wilder turn around and change my mind? Absolutely......

You seem hell bent on just sort of bating, without giving any actual view or opinion yourself

And you are not grasping durability or chin.....it's too black and white your view.....failure to grasp the nuance of both.

Zedmann

Upcoming heavyweight fight I'm looking forward to, hopefully on PPV - walshb vs. Cyrus.

walshb

Zedmann wrote: »

Upcoming heavyweight fight I'm looking forward to, hopefully on PPV - walshb vs. Cyrus.

Be over in no time...

His one liners just won't cut the mustard....been like this a long time now...

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

Make what up?

Does Wilder have a great chin? What is your answer here?

Because, from what I have seen, I don't see how it can be claimed that he does

If anything, what I have seen tells me it is not great, and will be found out

That's just my view....

Could Wilder turn around and change my mind? Absolutely......

You seem hell bent on just sort of bating, without giving any actual view or opinion yourself

And you are not grasping durability or chin.....it's too black and white your view.....failure to grasp the nuance of both.

make up everything and anything to peddle what your opinion, and before a big fight take a position that allows you to say you picked the winner no matter who wins.

and as for you to accuse someone of baiting, take a look at the plank in your own eye before you point out the splinter in mine.

I give my opinion, i said AP isnt durable as you made out (to make Joshuas KO seem a better win than it was) and nothing i have seen suggests to me that Wilder is chinny, if anything for a guy of his frame, his chin has held up better than i would have expected.

He certainly has a stronger chin that Fury or Joshua imo.

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

Be over in no time...

His one liners just won't cut the mustard....been like this a long time now...

whether you win or lose you'll have predicted the correct result :rolleyes:

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

make up everything and anything to peddle what your opinion, and before a big fight take a position that allows you to say you picked the winner no matter who wins.

and as for you to accuse someone of baiting, take a look at the plank in your own eye before you point out the splinter in mine.

I give my opinion, i said AP isnt durable as you made out (to make Joshuas KO seem a better win than it was) and nothing i have seen suggests to me that Wilder is chinny, if anything for a guy of his frame, his chin has held up better than i would have expected.

He certainly has a stronger chin that Fury or Joshua imo.

Ok, so has he a great chin or not?

You still haven't answered the question...

I said he hasn't....I gave an answer and used reasoning........all you had to do was reply with your reasoning, but you didn't.....you came back with the usual silly one liners to kind of mock...

And I pick a winner and stand by it.......

AJ beats Wilder and Fury..........

Could I be wrong? Of course, as for me, none are clearly superior against the others.....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Make what up?

Does Wilder have a great chin? What is your answer here?

Because, from what I have seen, I don't see how it can be claimed that he does

If anything, what I have seen tells me it is not great, and will be found out

That's just my view....

Could Wilder turn around and change my mind? Absolutely......

You seem hell bent on just sort of bating, without giving any actual view or opinion yourself

And you are not grasping durability or chin.....it's too black and white your view.....failure to grasp the nuance of both.

Does any current heavy weight have a great chin then in your view ?

Fury been dropped a few times,
AJ been dropped a few times and finished by Ruiz ,
Wilder dropped be Ortiz and Fury (although fury was the side of the head)
Whyte dropped by AVP , AJ and Parker
AVP dropped by AJ and Whyte ,

So great chin talk is redundant ,so what about durability

Well AJ is the only one of the top 3 guys to quit or be kept down ,

So up to this point Wilder & Fury have been more durable than AJ

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so has he a great chin or not?

You still haven't answered the question...

I said he hasn't....I gave an answer and used reasoning........

And I pick a winner and stand by it.......

AJ beats Wilder and Fury..........

Could I be wrong? Of course, as for me, none are clearly superior against the others.....

Yeah like when you picked wilder to beat fury and yet werent wrong with fury beat him.

i made my position on wilders chin abundantly clear, if anyone else has any trouble understanding my position ill accept that its unclear.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Does any current heavy weight have a great chin then in your view ?

Fury been dropped a few times,
AJ been dropped a few times and finished by Ruiz ,
Wilder dropped be Ortiz and Fury (although fury was the side of the head)
Whyte dropped by AVP , AJ and Parker
AVP dropped by AJ and Whyte ,

So great chin talk is redundant ,so what about durability

Well AJ is the only one of the top 3 guys to quit or be kept down ,

So up to this point Wilder & Fury have been more durable than AJ

At HW I suppose any of them can be dropped

Nobody can know for sure which one has the best chin....very very difficult to measure something like this with all the variables, scenarios, fights and results...

I am absolutely not sold on AJ.......

Not sold on Fury....he has shown me too many times where he has reacted badly to several types shots.....

Wilder, I am not sold on, and gave my reasoning..

All three for me have less than great/sturdy chins......is this a fact? Hard to say, but if one analyses all three then I think it reasonable to agree with this view...

Durability wise, so far, AJ has shown it least.......

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

At HW I suppose any of them can be dropped

Nobody can know for sure which one has the best chin....very very difficult to measure something like this with all the variables, scenarios, fights and results...

I am absolutely not sold on AJ.......

Not sold on Fury....he has shown me too many times where he has reacted badly to several types shots.....

Wilder, I am not sold on, and gave my reasoning..

All three for me have less than great/sturdy chins......is this a fact? Hard to say, but if one analyses all three then I think it reasonable to agree with this view...

Durability wise, so far, AJ has shown it least.......

I'm not sure if its even possible to have a good chin at heavy weight these days with the size and power of the top guys ,

But a part of a good chin is how quick you can recover, Fury has show they he is exceptional at this, Wilder also recovered well and quickly aginst Ortiz,

AJ didn't recover at all v Ruiz and also took a round or two to recover v Wlad,
Still convinced if Wlad was not coming out of a two year retirement he would have stopped him

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

i made my position on wilders chin abundantly clear, if anyone else has any trouble understanding my position ill accept that its unclear.

Ok, so you don't think he is chinny

But you haven't answered if you think it's great or not.

And seem to have issue with me thinking that it is not great.

Crystal clear so....

BTW, not great doesn't necessarily mean glass...I do not think Wilder has a glass chin...

I would probably give him a B-