Heavyweight Boxing

Cyrus

walshb wrote: »

Ok, so you don't think he is chinny

But you haven't answered if you think it's great or not.

And seem to have issue with me thinking that it is not great.

Crystal clear so....

BTW, not great doesn't necessarily mean glass...I do not think Wilder has a glass chin...

I would probably give him a B-

i can disagree without having an issue, my issue is your superiority complex.

how do you define great, that's subjective, i have given my opinion.

walshb

Cyrus wrote: »

i can disagree without having an issue, my issue is your superiority complex.

how do you define great, that's subjective, i have given my opinion.

It's a good point, and worth debating...how does one define great?

I mean, had you started off here instead of kind of mocking my not thinking he had a great chin.....?

B- is not great......it's not bad either....

I wouldn't be laying any kind money on him surviving any heavy artillery that lands...I guess this the best way to explain my view on his chin..

I have seen enough v Ortiz and Fury fights to lead me here...

His wobbliness and grogginess and fuzziness all lead me to believe that he will let me down if in proper trouble......

I would be very positive that if AJ got him in any type bother like Ortiz did, AJ would finish him fast...

If AJ had him groggy and fuzzy like Fury had him near the end, AJ would finish him fast

But, I also think that AJ probably only needs 1-2 good clean shots to end the fight...

House Hunt

walshb wrote: »

I did not confirm your point. I refuted it, and offered mine.

And there was a physicality turnaround....as in, he decided to use his physicality a lot more in fight 2.

So, you know exactly this 30 percent lark?

Nonsense....

Stop making out that he went from 30 percent ready to 100 percent, or close to 100 percent ready between fights....pure stupidity

The man fought fight 1 a certain way and fought fight 2 a certain way...

His plan in fight 1 was his plan for fight 1...and it served him well

Maybe he decided that for fight 2, I can take this lad....I don't need to be overly cute and slick and defensive...maybe if I am more aggressive and take the fight to him, I can beat him. Maybe he felt from fight 1, that this is the new way to win....

How is it pure stupidity to say he went from 30% to say 90% (I said he will improve again next time out) in the space of 15 months? 5 months before Wilder1 he was flapping around the ring with Seferi after shedding 9 stone of fat. His father threatened to never speak with him again if he took the fight as he knew what state he was in physically and was genuinely worried about him getting in the ring. Everyone saw how confident he was before Wilder 2, offering to take bets off Haye etc as he knew about the turnaround in his fitness, you didn't see the same before Wilder 1. Fury couldn't even hack the training camp in Big Bear as he was in such poor shape and no muscle mass.

Regarding the game plan - I don't think he would have gone on the front foot in the first fight either even at full power - I was just making a point that it wasn't even an option. And at anything near full fitness - he wouldn't have drawn the fight on the back foot.

walshb

House Hunt wrote: »

How is it pure stupidity to say he went from 30% to say 90% (I said he will improve again next time out) in the space of 15 months? 5 months before Wilder1 he was flapping around the ring with Seferi after shedding 9 stone of fat. His father threatened to never speak with him again if he took the fight as he knew what state he was in physically and was genuinely worried about him getting in the ring. Everyone saw how confident he was before Wilder 2, offering to take bets off Haye etc as he knew about the turnaround in his fitness, you didn't see the same before Wilder 1. Fury couldn't even hack the training camp in Big Bear as he was in such poor shape and no muscle mass.

Regarding the game plan - I don't think he would have gone on the front foot in the first fight either even at full power - I was just making a point that it wasn't even an option. And at anything near full fitness - he wouldn't have drawn the fight on the back foot.

Fair points

I just think you are making him out to be too much physically depleted for fight 1 compared to fight 2....

Had he employed the same gameplan that he used in fight 2 to fight 1, we can't say that it doesn't work...

In fight 1 he showed serious fitness, by the way, as in cardio fitness

This really all boils down to physical strength......he may well have been physically stronger for fight 2.......but he certainly was no weakling for fight 1....

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

Whatever the excuses..it was comfortable..

It would not have been as comfortable if Ruiz had taken the bout seriously. It's easy to look comfortable against a guy that was in such bad shape he could barely move. You would be acknowledging these things if it was Fury in against Ruiz. You'd also have criticised Fury for not finishing him off. Joshua, of course, gets a free pass with you:)

walshb

nacho libre wrote: »

It would not have been as comfortable if Ruiz had taken the bout seriously. It's easy to look comfortable against a guy that was in such bad shape he could barely move. You would be acknowledging these things if it was Fury in against Ruiz. You'd also have criticised Fury for not finishing him off. Joshua, of course, gets a free pass with you:)

I simply stated a fact: It was a comfortable win....

You brought in excuses.....

Not sure what Fury has got to do with this fight.....

Free pass for AJ? For comfortably beating Ruiz?

Should I penalize AJ because Ruiz came in less than prepared? That is Ruiz's fault...not AJs.

And, if you bother to read my comments on that fight, you will see plenty AJ criticism on his showing....

So, your whole post seems off here...

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

I simply stated a fact: It was a comfortable win....

You brought in excuses.....

Not sure what Fury has got to do with this fight.....

Free pass for AJ? For comfortably beating Ruiz?

Should I penalize AJ because Ruiz came in less than prepared? That is Ruiz's fault...not AJs.

And, if you bother to read my comments on that fight, you will see plenty AJ criticism on his showing....

So, your whole post seems off here...

It's not a excuse, it's providing context as to why it was a comfortable win. I'm not blaming AJ for Ruiz coming in unprepared. I just don't see that it was all that an impressive a win. My point in bringing Fury is into the discussion is that when Fury wins you are more inclined to criticise him and focus on the opponents shortcomings rather than on what Fury did right.

I'll praise AJ when i feel it's merited- as was the case against Klitschko and Povetkin, but not in beating a tub of lard, who could barely move in the ring.
Fair enough if you have criticised AJ's performance against Ruiz, i did not see those comments.

walshb

And I never said AJs win was impressive.

I said it was comfortable..

And I know Ruiz came in not as prepared as for fight 1.

I’ll critique and assess and criticise every fighter equally..

It is nothing at all personal. I judge them on their ring credentials and performances..

AJ, Wilder and Fury have been praised and criticised by me..

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

It's a good point, and worth debating...how does one define great?

I mean, had you started off here instead of kind of mocking my not thinking he had a great chin.....?

B- is not great......it's not bad either....

I wouldn't be laying any kind money on him surviving any heavy artillery that lands...I guess this the best way to explain my view on his chin..

I have seen enough v Ortiz and Fury fights to lead me here...

His wobbliness and grogginess and fuzziness all lead me to believe that he will let me down if in proper trouble......

I would be very positive that if AJ got him in any type bother like Ortiz did, AJ would finish him fast...

If AJ had him groggy and fuzzy like Fury had him near the end, AJ would finish him fast

But, I also think that AJ probably only needs 1-2 good clean shots to end the fight...

Its heavyweight boxing. Damn all fighters either present day or past, would withstand this kind of "heavy artillery" in a weight class where anyone can knock the other guy out.

Your opinion on Wilder has changed dramatically, and its clear you view him as second rate due to Fury handling him with ease (who is firmly second rate in your opinion from the get go).

Another day, another example of Walshb "going against the grain". Sorry man, nothing personal but its a recurring theme and I love good debate as much as the next man.

Every debate should be prefaced with a disclaimer that anyone who Fury has beaten is somehow fallable by virtue of the fact they cannot be any good at all if Fury beat him.

walshb

My opinion on him has not changed dramatically at all..

Unless you are claiming I was rating him so very highly..

And of course opinions change. Things happen..Fighters show weakness and vulnerability, and that is when one can change their views..

What dramatic change have I shown?

From the Ortiz fight and Fury fight 2 my view is that the chin is not great..

Hardly some dramatic change...

Where did I rate him second rate? He is still elite...

And he could still KO Fury and AJ and anyone else for that matter. He has that capability..

You are searching for things that are just not there..

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Another day, another example of Walshb "going against the grain". Sorry man, nothing personal but its a recurring theme and I love good debate as much as the next man.
.

Going against what grain? The boards boxing forum grain?

Plenty people don't rate Fury as highly as others....

He is still elite......

Plenty don't rate Wilder as highly as others

He is still elite

Plenty people don't rate AJ as highly as others

He is still elite

Not sure what grain you are on about here....

All three have polarizing views as regards how they are rated and ranked by boxing people...

I think all three are close....hand on heart I'd put AJ as 1, Fury as 2 and Wilder as 3....

This order could change depending on future results...that is sport and analysis...

But no problem with anyone giving a different order...

Example: Fury and AJ yet to fight....let's say AJ beats Fury and then Wilder beats AJ

How do you rank this.......?

But there is one vibe here about Fury...people (his fans) seem very antsy when others maybe don't praise him like he's some sort of god....

I am a fan of none of them....I simply assess them as fighters and boxers....I don't rate any very highly in an all time sense....for the era they are in, of course, all three are elite...

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Its heavyweight boxing. Damn all fighters either present day or past, would withstand this kind of "heavy artillery" in a weight class where anyone can knock the other guy out.

By heavy artillery I did not mean lights out wow power. I did not mean shots that could knock an elephant out..

Good example is the Shavers shot that hit Ali and badly wobbled him....that same shot IMO flattens a Wilder.....Ali wobbled and in seconds was recovered.....it was a good clean shot, but still not out and out a monster. I think it flattens AJ and Fury, too, by the way.

I meant decent hard punches....

And plenty HWs can take them....

Of course, lights out clean shots can drop any man....we all know this...

Wilder for me is one who won't survive clean hard shots from good punchers....

Not lights out Hasim Rhaman v Lewis type shots, just hard shots.....

Fury (with nothing too meaty) had him dazed, wobbled, down, groggy...............the evidence is there.........Ortiz had him badly hurt, and not from some whopper shot.....both instances are evidence to me that he has not got a great chin...

And no doubt if it is AJ landing clean and hard, he will no way survive...no way...

squinn2912

Took me half the day to read up on that tiff. For what it’s worth I think you both think much the same thing!

My opinion is that aj kos wilder inside 3. If he’s spooked by the power there may be something but I think he’ll get rid of that against pulev. Wilder is a notoriously slow starter and aj will get through with a combo, stun him and finish him.

I’d be rooting for fury but I could see aj ko him after 8/9 rounds while behind on points. I’m less sure of that one.

yourdeadwright

squinn2912 wrote: »

Took me half the day to read up on that tiff. For what it’s worth I think you both think much the same thing!

My opinion is that aj kos wilder inside 3. If he’s spooked by the power there may be something but I think he’ll get rid of that against pulev. Wilder is a notoriously slow starter and aj will get through with a combo, stun him and finish him.

I’d be rooting for fury but I could see aj ko him after 8/9 rounds while behind on points. I’m less sure of that one.[/QUOTE

He has 30 ko wins within 3 rounds,
Not sure if that's a slow starter?
He became more patient as he moved up in competition but that was to draw people on, I'm not sure I'd call him a slow startedf

Blanco100

squinn2912 wrote: »

Took me half the day to read up on that tiff. For what it’s worth I think you both think much the same thing!

My opinion is that aj kos wilder inside 3. If he’s spooked by the power there may be something but I think he’ll get rid of that against pulev. Wilder is a notoriously slow starter and aj will get through with a combo, stun him and finish him.

I’d be rooting for fury but I could see aj ko him after 8/9 rounds while behind on points. I’m less sure of that one.

Im not Furys biggest fan, personally think all 3 are pretty basic. Its exciting because they are all close enough in terms of levels whilst bringing something different.

Everyone tips Fury to be KO'd every single fight but it just never happens. Personally think he wins without AJ getting through at all.

Fury has more a chance of hurting AJ than Ruiz did aswell.

walshb

The three of them could fight each other multiple times and you could have different outcomes/results.

Fury via KO against both
AJ via KO against both
Wilder via KO against both

Same as above via points, although Wilder least likely to win via the points route..the other two are better boxers.

Fury and AJ the points route:

I think if it goes to points, this one is very difficult to gauge...

AJ can box pretty well..put it this way, he will box with Fury better than Wilder did, and in Wilder-Fury 1 there were a few rds that could be argued either way..

AJ boxed very well against a pure boxer in Wlad..

walshb

Blanco100 wrote: »

Everyone tips Fury to be KO'd every single fight but it just never happens. Personally think he wins without AJ getting through at all.
.

Wee bit of an exaggeration here

Plenty picked Wilder to KO him....no real surprise there......

People picked Wlad as well, again, no real surprise there.....Fury was still a relative unknown as regards capabilities.

So, they were wrong......big deal

People will pick AJ to KO him as well.....wait to see here

These picks are nothing to do with Fury the person, but Fury the boxer...

I think AJ knocks him out purely from a stylistic and boxing standpoint...

Could I and others be wrong on the AJ pick? Of course....

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

Wee bit of an exaggeration here

Plenty picked Wilder to KO him....no real surprise there......

People picked Wlad as well, again, no real surprise there.....Fury was still a relative unknown as regards capabilities.

So, they were wrong......big deal

People will pick AJ to KO him as well.....wait to see here

These picks are nothing to do with Fury the person, but Fury the boxer...

I think AJ knocks him out purely from a stylistic and boxing standpoint...

Could I and others be wrong on the AJ pick? Of course....

I agree with this contribution. In a lot of fights one punch changes the direction of it like aj Ruiz 1. I think the likelihood of a below par fury turning is reasonably high too. His hunger is questionable or variable maybe the better phraseology.

Aj much more robotic in every sense which could work in his favour.

I’m pretty excited to see what will happen with Dubois in the next 18 months. If he keeps winning then he should be in contention.

Cyrus

squinn2912 wrote: »

I agree with this contribution. In a lot of fights one punch changes the direction of it like aj Ruiz 1. I think the likelihood of a below par fury turning is reasonably high too. His hunger is questionable or variable maybe the better phraseology.

Aj much more robotic in every sense which could work in his favour.

I’m pretty excited to see what will happen with Dubois in the next 18 months. If he keeps winning then he should be in contention.

to be fair to fury his best performances have been against the best opponents, the times he hasnt been as impressive was against lesser fighters.

yourdeadwright

I think Fury is going to make AJ look silly ,
Just like he did Wlad the veteran who froze and just like he did Wilder,

He's just to good at the art of boxing , to clever and to slick Aj's to robotic and stiff to get to him

Fury is just at home in there ,he'll will find a way to win like he does,

You seen AJ V Ruiz 2 he was scared to death and falling over himself every time Ruiz came near him, Stiff and panicking that he will get hit , if Ruiz was any where near the shape of the first fight he could have ko'd him again ,

To me one of them is a born boxer/fighter the other is highly tuned athlete who boxes,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

To me one of them is a born boxer/fighter the other is highly tuned athlete who boxes,

I kind of agree here......always had that feel off him....

But I also think that it's the visuals and style that gives this vibe

There is also a killer streak off him, that is real fighter type...

Fury doesn't have that....Fury is the type that almost doesn't want to hurt people, just beat them. Ali was the same...a real gentlemanly boxer...

Morrison J

I make Fury a big favourite for sure. Only thing that slightly concerns me for him though is that Joshua puts his combinations together much better than Wilder who is much more of a one shot artist that Fury 9 time out of 10 can evade or ride punches from. Definitely a better chance of Fury getting caught with a shot he doesn't see coming from Joshua than there is Wilder.

Joshua's tactics will dictate the fight. He isn't winning from the outside imo. He needs to pick his spots to try get inside and let his combinations go. Try sneak in an uppercut that Fury doesn't see.

I have confidence though that Fury will be able to put Joshua on the backfoot early on and dictate most of the fight. He's just the much better overall fighter and gas tank wise there's no comparison between them. Fury likely takes Joshua out late in the fight imo when Joshua starts to tire.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

I kind of agree here......always had that feel off him....

But I also think that it's the visuals and style that gives this vibe

There is also a killer streak off him, that is real fighter type...

Fury doesn't have that....Fury is the type that almost doesn't want to hurt people, just beat them. Ali was the same...a real gentlemanly boxer...

I think that's changed a bit now he's trained by Sugar Hill. He's aggressively looking for the knockout now.

walshb

Fury is a slight favorite with the bookies

If AJ fights any way cautious and negative, and allows Fury establish range and rhythm, he is goosed....Fury will peck and poke and break him...

If AJ decides to be very aggressive and go for it, like some boxers should, then Fury either avoids getting tagged clean (which is a possibility) or survives getting tagged clean (which, for me, is less a possibility).

I'd say fans wise the picks will be very close....no more than 60-40 for either man.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

I kind of agree here......always had that feel off him....

But I also think that it's the visuals and style that gives this vibe

There is also a killer streak off him, that is real fighter type...

Fury doesn't have that....Fury is the type that almost doesn't want to hurt people, just beat them. Ali was the same...a real gentlemanly boxer...

To me a real fighter isn't seen when your on top but is shown with how you react when your at the other end ,

Reason I never rated Mike Tyson as much as some ,

yourdeadwright

Morrison J wrote: »

I think that's changed a bit now he's trained by Sugar Hill. He's aggressively looking for the knockout now.

He fought that aggressive style at the start of his career and his fight with Steve Cunningham made him changed his style, he has mentioned it many times,

He he was giving his opponent a higher chance of landing big shots but if he actually just used his skill and craft they in his mind didn't stand a chance,

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

Fury is a slight favorite with the bookies

If AJ fights any way cautious and negative, and allows Fury establish range and rhythm, he is goosed....Fury will peck and poke and break him...

If AJ decides to be very aggressive and go for it, like some boxers should, then Fury either avoids getting tagged clean (which is a possibility) or survives getting tagged clean (which, for me, is less a possibility).

I'd say fans wise the picks will be very close....no more than 60-40 for either man.

Wlad said he was going to do this and Wilder said he was going to do this buy what happens is once they open up Fury makes them miss and lands himself , all of a sudden they realise he has power and they back up and go into there shell ,

Obviously heavy weight boxing anything can happen but to me Fury beats AJ all day every day and twice on a Sunday

selectamatic

If AJ can continue to improve his stamina I wouldn't be too concerned about his gas tank. He didn't tire at all in ruiz 2 however he wasn't put under any real pressure, did plenty of moving though and circling and his footwork looked tidy.

The clinch is very important.
Joshua will most likely be staying below 240lbs from now on so he'll giving up weight to fury but he should still be more than able to hold his own. Fury very much likes to be the clear boss of the clinch and he almost always is.

He uses this extensively throughout fights and it contributes massively to his good recuperation powers after being wobbled, dropped etc and also makes controlling fights much easier for him.

Wallin gave a great account of himself in the clinch from what I can remember of that fight, I would envisage Joshua being well able to keep Fury honest in this regard too.

ASOT

Wilder 35 today, didn't realize he was that old.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

To me a real fighter isn't seen when your on top but is shown with how you react when your at the other end ,

Reason I never rated Mike Tyson as much as some ,

I agree. AJ is not at all a fighter in the resiliency sense..

Mike was a lot more resilient. Tough as hell...had to nail him to the floor to finish him....notwithstanding bite fight..

I was more thinking AJ a fighter in the I want to hurt you sense...

But to date, he has not at all shown real resiliency..

Although he showed heart and guts to survive Wlad and come back to close the show.