Heavyweight Boxing

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Well that's part of game isn't it,
 If every fight was like that I wouldn't be a fan but if a guy is at the big stage and realises its what he needs to do to win and it works fair play to him

And it brings us all the way back to the original points I made....

That I would probably rather watch AJ-Povetkin boxing/fighting compared to AJ-Wilder.......purely because I think it gives us a better spectacle/fight...

I actually agreed with you several times on your "separate" point about best vs best is what we should want...

btw, until they all meet, who really is the best? Is it AJ/Wilder/Fury/Povetkin?

Would you really be all that surprised if the top rated Povetklin beat AJ?

Would it ne madness for some to think that Povetkin is the best HW on earth?

I think it's a bit outlandish to suggest that Pov is the best out there but good point on the other 3. There is an argument for each of them. AP hasn't really fought at top level since his loss but he's unbeaten as well. The other 3 unbeaten and all champions in some fashion. Those 3 have brilliant round robin events and there is extra intrigue when we know we are working out who is the top of the pile.

walshb

In order of preferred fights to see:

AJ-Fury 1

AJ-Povetkin 2

AJ-Wilder 3

Wilder-Fury 4

Fury-Povetkin 5

Wilder-Povetkin 6

Again, some may agree, some may not. You can bet you would get a load of different permutations from fight fans.....none are right. It's all personal boxing/fighting preference.

walshb

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think it's a bit outlandish to suggest that Pov is the best out there but good point on the other 3.

I don'T think it as at all outlandish.....I think you are too ceratin/sure with this view...

Look through his record and his performances.....he has every bit as impressive a resume....

He has tools, skills, power and toughness to at least be a threat...

squinn2912

Absolutely agree with both of your points made. 
My running order would be different and would depend on how Fury goes in the next 12 months. If he improves to surpass his previous standard then he goes to number one for me and I'd be torn on the Wilder/Aj fight. I would love to see how he'd propose to keep either of them at bay for 12 rounds because I don't think he can KO either. Very exciting fights.

squinn2912

walshb wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think it's a bit outlandish to suggest that Pov is the best out there but good point on the other 3.

I don'T think it as at all outlandish.....I think you are too ceratin/sure with this view...

Look through his record and his performances.....he has every bit as impressive a resume....

He has tools, skills, power and toughness to at least be a threat...

Yea well ok I'll have a keen eye on his next bout but there are some good names in there. The helpers and age are what make me fairly sure. Against Price he didn't look that in shape for me. He's definitely a credible opponent at world level and if you remember back after that night I was saying I'd like to see him in with AJ, since the Wilder fight will be drawn out for a long time yet, but I don't think he belongs in that top level conversation any longer.

walshb

squinn2912 wrote: »

Absolutely agree with both of your points made. 
My running order would be different and would depend on how Fury goes in the next 12 months. .

I was thinking this exact same thing when making that pick.

yourdeadwright

I wouldn't have AP in any fight I want to watch I think he is awful lately and a gimme for the top dogs,
Anyone have any predicts for the Park v Whyte fight ,
I have to say fair play to them because whoever loses that has a long way back to the top table.,

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think it's a bit outlandish to suggest that Pov is the best out there but good point on the other 3.

I don'T think it as at all outlandish.....I think you are too ceratin/sure with this view...

Look through his record and his performances.....he has every bit as impressive a resume....

He has tools, skills, power and toughness to at least be a threat...

I think Ortiz beats AP ,
For me AP should be fighting the Whyte's , Parkers' and Hugey Fury's of the boxing world,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think Ortiz beats AP ,
For me AP should be fighting the Whyte's , Parkers' and Hugey Fury's of the boxing world,

I forgot about Ortiz....

He's in the mix, but I don't think he beats AP....

squinn2912

That's the landscape yea. Add Ortiz to that list of 4 and then one level lower is the likes of White, Millar and in a year Joyce and Dubois possibly. Not too sure where to put Parker at the moment but above Whyte still until that fight. Hughie is in and around that area too. Can't totally forget about Takam or Charr just yet but they are never making it near the top - might beat some of the next level on a  given day.
In a best of the best I put the big 3 - the giants incidentally - above the rest. Fury is with a caveat that he has to return to his former powers which is still a long way off and will really test his determination. He's lucky if he gets through the next camp uninjured and that's also a big risk for him.

yourdeadwright

squinn2912 wrote: »

That's the landscape yea. Add Ortiz to that list of 4 and then one level lower is the likes of White, Millar and in a year Joyce and Dubois possibly. Not too sure where to put Parker at the moment but above Whyte still until that fight. Hughie is in and around that area too. Can't totally forget about Takam or Charr just yet but they are never making it near the top - might beat some of the next level on a  given day.
In a best of the best I put the big 3 - the giants incidentally - above the rest. Fury is with a caveat that he has to return to his former powers which is still a long way off and will really test his determination. He's lucky if he gets through the next camp uninjured and that's also a big risk for him.

You'd also expected someone we don't rate highly now to make big moves in the next 2 years, there's always one

squinn2912

WHoecer that is I hope he’s brilliant. Division isn’t the best at the moment

A Shaved Duck?

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think Ortiz beats AP ,
For me AP should be fighting the Whyte's , Parkers' and Hugey Fury's of the boxing world,

I really dont get this logic, povetkin has dominated everybody put in front of him since the klitschko fight.

IMO the only reason he doesnt have a belt is the drugs issues, hughie fury and whyte would get battered by povetkin easily.

He is a russian fighter with not much personality or the sky hype machine working for him, honestly see him beating AJ or Wilder handy aswell.

squinn2912

There's a fair big claim! 
I agree to an extent. I think he's earned the right to be considered above Hughie, Whyte or any of those. 
He may well have got a belt were it not for the drugs issues but they're significant and saw him lose out on the Wilder fight to name just one. I'd question if he'd fought Wlad again if he'd have won? I don't think so. I don't think he'd beat him now, today. Wlad has been beaten fair and square twice since then so to say he'd have a handy day against the belt holders now is a stretch. He got caught against Price. If he got caught against one of them he'd stay caught.
Lack of hype machine is a good point also.

yourdeadwright

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think Ortiz beats AP ,
For me AP should be fighting the Whyte's , Parkers' and Hugey Fury's of the boxing world,

I really dont get this logic, povetkin has dominated everybody put in front of him since the klitschko fight.

IMO the only reason he doesnt have a belt is the drugs issues, hughie fury and whyte would get battered by povetkin easily.

He is a russian fighter with not much personality or the sky hype machine working for him, honestly see him beating AJ or Wilder handy aswell.

Its more to do with the drop off in performances since he got done for drugs, 
I think without the juice he starting to look his age, also he is very short compared to the big dogs of the division , and throws hooks a lot which means he needs to be close ,
He has had 3 fights since in 2 he went the distance with guys who are 6'0 and 6'2 ,
The he ko'd Price fair enough  but Price is glass chinned and done a long time
Price's reach and height caused him lots of trouble on another night he could have won,
If he fights AJ, Wilder , Furys  there big like Price but miles better I can't see him causing them any trouble,

walshb

can still bang and is eager to bang. AJ has a chin that we are not sure about, and his D is not brilliant.....

AP knows how to throw shots, time shots and use range and movement to be in positions to do this......he has solid feet/base and solid fundamentals.

I expect AJ to win, but it would not be a surprise to me if AP got to AJs chin to do real damage.....

I think AP finds it more difficult against Wilder due to Wilder's extra range and reach (long arms) as well as his unconventional style.

I hope we get AP-AJ in the next 4-6 months....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

can still bang and is eager to bang. AJ has a chin that we are not sure about, and his D is not brilliant.....

AP knows how to throw shots, time shots and use range and movement to be in positions to do this......he has solid feet/base and solid fundamentals.

I expect AJ to win, but it would not be a surprise to me if AP got to AJs chin to do real damage.....

I think AP finds it more difficult against Wilder due to Wilder's extra range and reach (long arms) as well as his unconventional style.

I hope we get AP-AJ in the next 4-6 months....

I think Wilder reach is a but deceiving , I think its only an Inch on AJ but it looks much long due to him not being as muscular as AJ , But I guess he still probably he second longest reach off all the top heavyweights just behind Fury,

walshb wrote: »

can still bang and is eager to bang. AJ has a chin that we are not sure about, and his D is not brilliant.....

AP knows how to throw shots, time shots and use range and movement to be in positions to do this......he has solid feet/base and solid fundamentals.

I expect AJ to win, but it would not be a surprise to me if AP got to AJs chin to do real damage.....

I think AP finds it more difficult against Wilder due to Wilder's extra range and reach (long arms) as well as his unconventional style.

I hope we get AP-AJ in the next 4-6 months....

Points on the mark and id love to see it if it was four fights ago for AP
But I can't see it going pas 3/4 rounds now
Personally I think since the drug issues AP doesn't engage like he previous did and I also think his chin won't hold up like it use to ,

squinn2912

I think it would be a good fight and I like how both would come to throw. It depends a lot on what sort of AP turns up. It could be a retirement party - take the big pay day and head on, give it a bit of a lash. If he comes ready to eat bricks then he could cause some problems. On one hand Hammer took him all the way and he's a very limited opponent, on the other he KO'ed Takam who gave AJ a bit of a fight (even if his credit is for just lasting quite well).
It could well end up being a huge fight if there were to be an eventful World Cup and on the back of very fractured relations between England and Russia. All that adds some spice. If you and some others on here, and presumably vast amounts of Eastern Europeans, rate him so highly then that implies that AJ would be in a certain amount of danger in this fight. 
Ive said I'm prepared to wait on the Wilder fight and in the absence of it coming up any time soon the AP fight is the best one out there.

yourdeadwright

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think it would be a good fight and I like how both would come to throw. It depends a lot on what sort of AP turns up. It could be a retirement party - take the big pay day and head on, give it a bit of a lash. If he comes ready to eat bricks then he could cause some problems. On one hand Hammer took him all the way and he's a very limited opponent, on the other he KO'ed Takam who gave AJ a bit of a fight (even if his credit is for just lasting quite well).
It could well end up being a huge fight if there were to be an eventful World Cup and on the back of very fractured relations between England and Russia. All that adds some spice. If you and some others on here, and presumably vast amounts of Eastern Europeans, rate him so highly then that implies that AJ would be in a certain amount of danger in this fight. 
Ive said I'm prepared to wait on the Wilder fight and in the absence of it coming up any time soon the AP fight is the best one out there.

Takam one was before he got done .Its also another fight he looked good in against a smaller fighter who is 6'1 ,
He a good fighter and regardless of the drug issues I think his size was always going to go against him when he meets the top class heavyweights as they are all giants of men ,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think Wilder reach is a but deceiving , I think its only an Inch on AJ but it looks much long due to him not being as muscular as AJ , But I guess he still probably he second longest reach off all the top heavyweights just behind Fury,

Maybe his reach is deceiving. I was more going by how he fights and what appears to be his really rangy and long arms....I think AP struggles to get inside this to land damaging blows. He will find AJs more upright and rigid stance a little more penetrable. But AJ has an ok D. He can slip and block shots on his arms rather well....

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think Wilder reach is a but deceiving , I think its only an Inch on AJ but it looks much long due to him not being as muscular as AJ , But I guess he still probably he second longest reach off all the top heavyweights just behind Fury,

Maybe his reach is deceiving. I was more going by how he fights and what appears to be his really rangy and long arms....I think AP struggles to get inside this to land damaging blows. He will find AJs more upright and rigid stance a little more penetrable. But AJ has an ok D. He can slip and block shots on his arms rather well....

I guess I probably worded that wrong cause he  has the second longest reach of al lthe top guys, It's more that AJ's reach is longer than you'd think being only an inch behind Wilder,
Ye I agree he is good at blocking with his arms also helps that AJ arms are like a weight lifter's legs ,
If Wilder v AJ isn't made, I guess AP is the only real option very one else is tied up ,
I'd love to see Aj v Ortiz over AP , both drug cheats and both ageing but I think Ortiz is a better boxer,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I guess I probably worded that wrong cause he  has the second longest reach of al lthe top guys, It's more that AJ's reach is longer than you'd think being only an inch behind Wilder,
Ye I agree he is good at blocking with his arms also helps that AJ arms are like a weight lifter's legs ,
If Wilder v AJ isn't made, I guess AP is the only real option very one else is tied up ,
I'd love to see Aj v Ortiz over AP , both drug cheats and both ageing but I think Ortiz is a better boxer,

You have mentioned drugs cheats a few times now to kind of disparage these lads.

Fury..........I don't recall you having the same view with him....

A Shaved Duck?

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its more to do with the drop off in performances since he got done for drugs, 
I think without the juice he starting to look his age, also he is very short compared to the big dogs of the division , and throws hooks a lot which means he needs to be close ,
He has had 3 fights since in 2 he went the distance with guys who are 6'0 and 6'2 ,
The he ko'd Price fair enough  but Price is glass chinned and done a long time
Price's reach and height caused him lots of trouble on another night he could have won,
If he fights AJ, Wilder , Furys  there big like Price but miles better I can't see him causing them any trouble,

What drop off though two complete shut-outs and a nasty KO of price...is the dropoff the punch that price connected with?

I honestly think he is being seriously underrrated and would give any of those guys serious issues.

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I guess I probably worded that wrong cause he  has the second longest reach of al lthe top guys, It's more that AJ's reach is longer than you'd think being only an inch behind Wilder,
Ye I agree he is good at blocking with his arms also helps that AJ arms are like a weight lifter's legs ,
If Wilder v AJ isn't made, I guess AP is the only real option very one else is tied up ,
I'd love to see Aj v Ortiz over AP , both drug cheats and both ageing but I think Ortiz is a better boxer,

You have mentioned drugs cheats a few times now to kind of disparage these lads.

Fury..........I don't recall you having the same view with him....

We haven't seen him fight since his violation so we can't tell if it will effect him ,

yourdeadwright

A Shaved Duck? wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its more to do with the drop off in performances since he got done for drugs, 
I think without the juice he starting to look his age, also he is very short compared to the big dogs of the division , and throws hooks a lot which means he needs to be close ,
He has had 3 fights since in 2 he went the distance with guys who are 6'0 and 6'2 ,
The he ko'd Price fair enough  but Price is glass chinned and done a long time
Price's reach and height caused him lots of trouble on another night he could have won,
If he fights AJ, Wilder , Furys  there big like Price but miles better I can't see him causing them any trouble,

What drop off though two complete shut-outs and a nasty KO of price...is the dropoff the punch that price connected with?

I honestly think he is being seriously underrrated and would give any of those guys serious issues.

To me in he looked slower with less output since he got done,
I think the real issue will be his size can't see him lasting past the 4th ,

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I guess I probably worded that wrong cause he  has the second longest reach of al lthe top guys, It's more that AJ's reach is longer than you'd think being only an inch behind Wilder,
Ye I agree he is good at blocking with his arms also helps that AJ arms are like a weight lifter's legs ,
If Wilder v AJ isn't made, I guess AP is the only real option very one else is tied up ,
I'd love to see Aj v Ortiz over AP , both drug cheats and both ageing but I think Ortiz is a better boxer,

You have mentioned drugs cheats a few times now to kind of disparage these lads.

Fury..........I don't recall you having the same view with him....

Also you do realise he tested positive for benzoylecgonine, ,Its not performance enhancing
I could be wrong but isn't it something that appears in your body after cocaine use ?
So its slightly different than being on the Jesus juice,

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

We haven't seen him fight since his violation so we can't tell if it will effect him ,

I was more meaning it as regards your being disparaging....

You never mentions Fury the drugs cheat....but several times you say it about AP.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Also you do realise he tested positive for benzoylecgonine, ,Its not performance enhancing
I could be wrong but isn't it something that appears in your body after cocaine use ?
So its slightly different than being on the Jesus juice,

He was done for a banned/prohibited substance....

He is a drugs cheat no different than AP.

I did not read in-depth on it, but I think AP was initially down for Melondiuom, which was free to use for many years, and people still disagree on whether or not it enhances performance.

I will read a bit more, but wasn't Fury also cited for nandrolone levels that were above what is termed acceptable?

yourdeadwright

walshb wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

We haven't seen him fight since his violation so we can't tell if it will effect him ,

I was more meaning it as regards your being disparaging....

You never mentions Fury the drugs cheat....but several times you say it about AP.

AP was performance enhancing  Fury got done for coke, one is cheating the other is just ruining your own life.
Would you call Fury a cheat for using coke ?  I wouldn't it doesn't effect the fight , I'd just call him an idiot
But I will say there was at first the charge of nandrolone at Tyson and Hughie Fury but it was never taking any further and resolved which was odd ,
1

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

AP was performance enhancing  Fury got done for coke, one is cheating the other is just ruining your own life.
Would you call Fury a cheat for using coke ?  I wouldn't it doesn't effect the fight , I'd just call him an idiot
But I will say there was at first the charge of nandrolone at Tyson and Hughie Fury but it was never taking any further and resolved which was odd ,
1

You are being selective here.

Fury was done for a banned substance, as well as the nadrolone suspicions....

Cocaine is well know as being debated for being a PED.....

Plenty people can argue that it can enhance one's performance....

There are instances where it can be used to aid and help an athlete...