Heavyweight Boxing

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448852#Comment_121448852

Usyk could beat Holyfield at CW. At HW I think Holyfield beats him.

stylistically a prime Mike Tyson is the worst of all matches for Usyk. Usyk won’t contain Tyson, and has not near the power to bother him.

It would be similar to the Spinks fight. No way Usyk takes Tyson’s power, as well as any follow up power.

you mention Berbick. But look what actually happened. Tyson was a monster that night.

Tyson Fury has the height and size to be more problematic. I reckon Lewis blasts Fury away easily. I’d pick Bowe to as well. And Foreman. FFS, Francis had him knocked down from a half/decent counter hook. Imagine Foreman or Lewis hitting him and following up..

squinn2912

i

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121448884#Comment_121448884

I actually think Usyk beats Holyfield irrespective of weightclass. And I think against Tyson it would be nothing like Spinks. Spinks was terrified and he didnt want a bit of it from before the opening bell. He had already retired in his own mind. A couple of tight wins against a finished Holmes ok but he has nothing like the attitude of USyk and thats what beat him as much as Tysons brilliance. Tyson's bobbing and weaving against Usyk's footwork is fascinating. Im not saying I pick Usyk but he can compete. Tyson himself coined the phrase but he wasnt that great himself when he got punched in the face.

Regarding Fury I think he has height, reach and stamina on all of those lads. He often has done enough and no more to win and not looked great doing it but those lads would bring it out in him. Flick of a coin. They all have him on throwing a real power shot.

As an aside I hate the point being made 'it depends what Tyson, Fury, Lewis etc etc turns up' balls to that it's up to you to turn up. Best consistency in performance is Usyk I think.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449738#Comment_121449738

Footwork from Usyk won’t beat Tyson. He has to hit him, consistently, hard, and hurt him. Usyk is nowhere near heavy-handed enough to at all dent and discourage Tyson. He spends whatever time he has trying his best not to get knocked out. It’s an awful style match for Usyk

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121449782#Comment_121449782

Footwork isnt all Usyk has though. It's one thing that helps him evade Tyson. Usyk needs to use the ring size and try to take it past the midway point when Tyson always tires. Usyk cant trade with Tyson but he can dodge him and get his own shots off and then come on strong later on. The guy doesnt get hit often. I think it would be a great fight.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450126#Comment_121450126

He’s not that difficult to hit. And Tyson just comes to hit and destroy. No feeling out nonsense.

Other thing: at peak, Tyson had very good stamina, and an excellent chin (not that he needs it) vs. Usyk.

Punches will win this fight, and Usyk cannot offensively hurt Tyson. He can try tip and tap for points, but he would most likely be countered very heavily. And constantly on the back-foot

And Tyson could really whack to body and head.

I just cannot see how Usyk beats Tyson. It would be a very clean and early KO loss.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450176#Comment_121450176

I disagree. I think Usyk would allow Tyson the forward movement, especially early on and Usyk can sting rightly. What fights are you thinking of for showing how good a chin Tyson had? I'm a bit dubious about this notion of 'prime' fighters, esp at HW. Like its up to themselves to not be washed up at 30. If (and yes of course its a big if) Usyk landed some combos on Tyson he would certainly buzz him. I think weather the early storm and take it to the mid point and Usyk becomes stronger and stronger in that fight.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121450176#Comment_121450176

Tyson was great to watch but there is the argument that any time he fought against top class (and in some cases not even nearly top class) fighters he came undone. A lot of his wins are like Joshua or Dubois fancy ko reels against nothing. Holyfield battered him and may have beaten any version (huge side arguement), I think any Lewis beats him, Bowe too. Holmes a few years earllier would have given him plenty of trouble too. I'm only arguing that Usyk is competitive with him.

highpressisbest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451137#Comment_121451137

I Mike Tyson’s competition was infinitely better than Joshua’s. I think Joshua has huge problems or loses to all the guys Tyson met in his first reign. The Pinklon Thomas or Tony Tubbs who fought Mike would have outclassed Joshua completely. Joshua doesn’t beat that Tony Tucker either. A much reduced Tucker gave Lennox a good fight five years later. And Tubbs arguably beat Bowe in 91.

Bowe is overrated I am afraid. His peak was only one night, the first Holyfield fight. Enormous potential but very little to show for it. In 96 he made Golota look like an amazing fighter, which he probably wasn’t. Lennox definitely had his off nights. The Lennox who was so tentative against Frank Bruno probably gets stopped early by Tyson. Once Lennox hooked up with Emmanuel, it becomes a massively difficult night for Mike.

As for the Tyson Holyfield question, I think it’s whether you think Tyson could ever have really hurt Holyfield. In 89, 90, or 91 he has to have had some chance. Holyfield was very close to being stopped by Bert Cooper in 91. I know Evander was not at his optimum that night with the cancellation of the Tyson fight. If it ever became a battle of wills, it is always going to be Evander.

walshb

Tyson’s championship opposition was far better than any of AJs. An over the hill Wlad and shot to bits Povetkin.. AJ does not beat several Tyson victims.

I’d pick a prime pre-prison Tyson over Holyfield 9/10 times

and I think the heavier and more bulked mid 90s Holyfield has a better chance than early 1990s Holyfield

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452544#Comment_121452544

I'm not so sure pal. The Wlad who Joshua pipped woudl have whipped any of them.

loI think that about Bowe as well. But for the trilogy wed think very little of him based on what was left. That said I've always thought the early 90s version beats Lewis... well has the best chance of it, he never wanted it at all. Bowe still would have given Tyson trouble.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452622#Comment_121452622

Wlad aside yes. Povetkin still had a little bit about him but waning. Joshua gives them all a good fight. Wins some loses some. I think nostalgia is at play here. Plenty of them didnt look in that great of shape. Usyk dances around a lot of those guys. And, for me, he is competitive also with Tyson with a good chance of winning on points or late on. Tyson isn't cracking him mentally before the fight as he did with many opponents. You have given Tyson a very unfair advantage in that we all have to assume that his very best turns up.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121453645#Comment_121453645

I never gave Mike any advantage. In fantasy fights one should alway have both men at/near peak. So for me Mike at peak beats Usyk at peak easily

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452622#Comment_121452622

the juiced holyfield!

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121453748#Comment_121453748

Yes, they were the rumors alright. He was like a fooking oak tree

highpressisbest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121453645#Comment_121453645

All good points. I just feel Joshua would have real problems with any natural boxers he would face. And I probably have an 80s bias alright!

As regards Bowe, he looked a much more natural fighter than Lewis. And dominated the first round of their Olympic final. And his quality infighting would have made a fight with Tyson spectacular. By the first Golota fight it looked like he was damaged in some way. He was actually the accepted fighter of the year in 95 but those Holyfield must have done enormous damage to him. Whereas Holyfield seemed to survive countless wars without the same damage.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121453849#Comment_121453849

Ah yea he'd be a big lump in and around the top 10. He might scalp a few you wouldnt expect but any of the best lads beat him in a tough fight (if he were to go for it).

Bowe's close contact game was very impressive. Big guy, good jab and plenty of power. His body language never suggested he fancied himself against Lewis but we'll never know unfortunately. If he got Tyson past about 5 then I think he would beat him. Holyfield could absorb some serious punnishment. Did much better against Lewis than I was expecting.

If any of those get unloading on Usyk then it's hard to see him standing up to it but I'm not sure I see him taking the big shots or combos. I don't think we're seeing the very best of him right now but he is still fantastic.

megadodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121453849#Comment_121453849

I like your input, but Riddick Bowe most certainly did NOT dominate the first round of the Olympic final. It was a closely fought round ruined by one of those old-fashioned over-fussy amateur refs who kept interfering and eventually deducted Bowe for constantly lowering his head. Even though it was slightly harsh, Bowe's head was certainly down a lot, not exactly the body-language of a dominating fighter. And while the stoppage was again one of those over-fussy stoppages, Lewis was very much on top after getting an earful in the corner for 'slugging it out' rather than boxing.

megadodge

Just want to remind those who refuse to apply the same standards to Mike Tyson as they do to virtually every other boxer that ever lived - 23 year old PRIME Mike Tyson had the sh*t beaten out of him by Buster Douglas, who had already 4 losses on his record, 3 inside the distance.

Y'all musta forgot!!!!

OmegaGene

Y’all musta forgot

oh dear

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121455695#Comment_121455695

Mike Tyson was a party boy at 23. Prime Mike Tyson was 1986 to 1988.

In 1989 there was all these rumours about him not training as much as he could, about turmoil in his private life and drug taking.

walshb

Most top boxers have a prime period. It differs, and can be consecutive years or intermittent years. It's not an exact science.

Tyson, like plenty others had a prime of about 3-4 years where he was at his physical and emotional best. 1986-1989 were Tyson's prime years. He was very good in 1990-1991, but just off his physical prime. Not all fighters peak at the same age(s) during their primes. The loss of Jacobs and Rooney was very impacting for Mike.

Was 1990 a prime year for Tyson? Age wise, yes....but he was definitely on a downward spiral as regards commitment and training and bad influences. His Tokyo performance was quite good, but clear to anyone who knows boxing, that it was not as sharp and not as devastating as earlier years. Buster was excellent that night. In every area. Buster was a very talented HW boxer. Big, tall, superb jab, combinations, fitness and heart. He put on a lifetime best show against a very good Tyson, but not the best Tyson.

In these mythical matches, we should always try pick the best versions of fighters

walshb

I’m changing my prediction, lads. The GOAT has spoken

And Toney, who won world titles in three weight divisions, believes the Ukrainian will come up short. "Fury, easy," he said when asked for his prediction. "Fury is a better boxer. He is a better boxer and he is more aggressive. Usyk, he is a good boxer but he is not aggressive, he boxes to stay safe."

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458579#Comment_121458579

You change like the wind my man

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458926#Comment_121458926

No no. Sticking with Usyk.. Toney a lil punchy

Tryin to bring lil banter to this very quiet forum.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458952#Comment_121458952

Haha I thought there may be a hint of sarcasm there. Which do you think is more likely; Usyk or it doesn't happen at all?

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459208#Comment_121459208

Hmm. I think it probably happens. If I had to bet one of the scenarios happens, it would be the fight doesn’t happen.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459324#Comment_121459324

Hmm I'll believe nothing yet. The thing could shift again yet. If it were to shift I'd imagine the fault will more likely reside with Fury. I still think he wins the fight anyhow but he's a messer

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121459501#Comment_121459501

I’d be very sure that if fight fails, it’s Fury the reason

Robert Nairac

Tony "Big Joka" Yoka lost again tonight. This time to Ryad Merhy who used to fight at Cruiser.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121477474#Comment_121477474

Christ hes been some disappointment. I’m trying to think of anyone who let the side down more. I was always so disappointed in Price

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458952#Comment_121458952

Seasonal Greetings to one and all (Not genuine statement by the way).

You're dead eight, this ramshackle thread of dead beat losers needs an injection of Christmas cheer (True statement).

Alas, I have chosen to lower the standards again, and visit this den of iniquity with fake charm and grace...

For this years Christmas Cracker - I have a 15/1 sure thing, that will enlighten your miserable lives, and extend your period of Yuletide joy (drunken haze to you).

All winnings can be collected on Christmas Eve.

Get your pencils & papers ready my little Xmas puddings - You won't want to miss out on this.