Season 7 Episode 3 "The Queen's Justice" - "Non book readers"

Penn

DeadHand wrote: »

Not entirely true.

When Torrhen Stark submitted to the Targs the Kingship of the North, and its line of succession, was abolished. Ned and his forefathers all the way back to Torrhen were not Kings in the North, therefore the line does not run through Ned. Bran does not have that title to inherit.

Robb Stark was KITN briefly, though he did not inherit the position from Ned- he was declared so on the strength of his early successes in what was essentially an independence movement. The title was resurrected as part of a revolt, not passed down normally. Hence, in theory, any Northern noble could have been declared KITN (even an ostensibly half-noble bastard, as happened later with Jon) the title being, in the era our story is set, declarative rather than inherited.

When Robb's rebellion died along with him, the kingship was once again extinguished. No independence, no Kingdom, no King, no succession.

Jon is now head of a seperate, new revolt. Like Robb, he has been declared KITN for the purposes of his revolt on merit rather than on blood (though being somewhat a Stark certainly helps his "candidacy" as it helped Robb's, that being the North's most prominent dynasty).

His is the only claim as the title has been revived specifically for him. It was re-established for him because he is militarily and politically the most outstanding figure in the North right now.

It's their positions as Lords of Winterfell and offspring of Ned Stark that makes the Northmen support them as KITN. I agree with your post in theory, but both Robb and Jon's family lineage and position in Winterfell is intrinsically linked to their position as KITN.

Besides, if the Northmen only wanted to follow the most militarily and politically outstanding figure in the North, Lyanna Mormont would be Queen in the North

flazio

Question, Bran has seen Jon's true birth but did the vision confirm that Rhaegar is the father. We saw Lyanna whisper in Neds ear but did Bran hear it?

Penn

flazio wrote: »

Question, Bran has seen Jon's true birth but did the vision confirm that Rhaegar is the father. We saw Lyanna whisper in Neds ear but did Bran hear it?

Pretty sure he did (or if not he could go back into the vision and hear it again anyway). It was just held back from us as the audience so we get officially told when Jon does.

Harambe

I think the fact that Sir Arthur Dayne, who was a Targaryan kingsgaurd, was protecting Lyanna when she gave birth to Jon helps confirm that Rhaegar is the father.

Loafing Oaf

Anyone else think 'Jon Snow's parentage' is somehow lacking as the 'great secret' discovered by the guy who can see across time and space. Could it not have been 'Dragonglass kills White Walkers' or something else more obviously game-changing?

s15r330

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Anyone else think 'Jon Snow's parentage' is somehow lacking as the 'great secret' discovered by the guy who can see across time and space. Could it not have been 'Dragonglass kills White Walkers' or something else more obviously game-changing?

This was known already.

Loafing Oaf

s15r330 wrote: »

This was known already.

I know, I'm just using it as an example.

SeanJ09

What's the story with Dorne then? Have they any remaining forces? Surely it wasn't just Ellaria and the sands calling the shots there in the end.

CMOTDibbler

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I know, I'm just using it as an example.

We really don't know what Jon's future holds.

EagererBeaver

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I know, I'm just using it as an example.

Oh, I hope that was deliberate.

kingshankly

messy tessy wrote: »

The real question is why on earth you would want to know what's going to happen before it actually does?

If ya can bet on it I do

podgemonster

SeanJ09 wrote: »

What's the story with Dorne then? Have they any remaining forces? Surely it wasn't just Ellaria and the sands calling the shots there in the end.

The forces of each kingdom are made of houses loyal to one head house. In Dornes case, the Martels. The show has no successor to Ellyria so the houses have no banner to unite under.

Or the real answer, the showrunners don't have the time to include Dorne properly in the storyline, any attempt bar Oberyn has been a disaster and Dorne has now been conveniently put aside.

kingshankly

s15r330 wrote: »

I don't agree. He isn't even Ned Stark's bastard which will come to light shortly, so he has no claim on Winterfell. It's all Bran's, if he wants it, which he doesn't.

If Ramsey bolton can be lord of winterfell pretty sure John snow can be too

jooksavage

Battle scenes were oddly flat. After 6 seasons of hype, Casterly Rock turned out to be a big disappointment and looked like a rushed, half-finished set. The scene with Lannisters marching in columns to Highgarden looked like something from a mid-2000s strategy game.

Otherwise pretty great episode. It was cool to hear Diane Rigg call Jeoffrey a c$#t

lawred2

Crea wrote: »

Did anyone notice how quick Santa was in ditching her loyalty to Jon and telling Bran he was the true heir if Winterfell?
I predict that Santa will turn on Jon with the help of Littlefinger to take over the North and possibly the 7 kingdoms.

Didn't notice Santa at all

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Penn

kingshankly wrote: »

If Ramsey bolton can be lord of winterfell pretty sure John snow can be too

Ramsey was legitimised as Roose Bolton's heir by the King. He went from Ramsey Snow to Ramsey Bolton before he became Lord of Winterfell. Jon Snow hasn't been legitimised. He's still a Snow. But, the people of the North know that, and have named him King anyway. Bran, as true-born heir to Ned Stark could challenge him for the position, but won't, so it's a fairly moot point.

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It doesn't mean Jon was born a King. Rhaegar was married to Prince Oberyn's sister (the one The Mountain killed), but he ran away with Lyanna. He and Lyanna were never married. The Kingsguard would have stayed protecting Lyanna because that's what they were ordered to do. I don't think they even knew that Rhaegar had been killed, but even if they did, they stayed out of loyalty to Rhaegar. If Rhaegar told them to protect Lyanna with their lives, they stayed to do so as no new king (in this case, Robert) commanded them to do otherwise. Plus, they saw Robert as being a Usurper and therefore not their true King.

Unless it's revealed that if Oberyn's sister and her children died before Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant, then maybe Jon wouldn't be a bastard, but I'm not sure on the timeline of the stuff that happened round then.

Daledge

Even if it's confirmed that Rhaeger is the father they weren't married so he's still a bastard, he's just Jon Waters now as opposed to Jon Snow (Waters is the bastard name for Targaryens) and there's no one around to give him the Targaryen surname just like there's no one around to give him the Stark name - correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Bran or Sansa have the power to legitimize him.

Harambe

It definitely proves he's a Targaryan. It's probably pushing it a bit to say it proves he's not a bastard and that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married but I have a feeling that might come out through Bran.

Penn

Daledge wrote: »

Even if it's confirmed that Rhaeger is the father they weren't married so he's still a bastard, he's just Jon Waters now as opposed to Jon Snow (Waters is the bastard name for Targaryens) and there's no one around to give him the Targaryen surname just like there's no one around to give him the Stark name - correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Bran or Sansa have the power to legitimize him.

I think only Kings/Queens do. So he could possibly give himself the Stark name as King in the North.

jooksavage

lawred2 wrote: »

Didn't notice Santa at all

LOL. While we're on it, I'm surprised Martin hasnt actually come up with a westeosi equivalent for Santa: a flying wildling who brings chickens to good children and greyscale to bad ones.

Vojera

s15r330 wrote: »

That's gas, I just thought of that today, didn't realise it was a thing!

Me neither, just happened to have seen it on reddit a few minutes earlier :pac:

Daledge

Penn wrote: »

I think only Kings/Queens do. So he could possibly give himself the Stark name as King in the North.

Yeah I'm wrong and you're right. According to the Game of Thrones wikia:

Legitimization ​is the process by which a bastard receives the rights and social status of trueborn offspring by royal decree

For some reason I was under the impression it was the father who could give the name back. I obviously didn't watch the Roose Bolton and Ramsay Snow scene properly.

In that case it is still possible for him to become a Targaryen, though I can't see him legitimately giving it to himself as KITN.

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rawn

Bastard names are based on location not families. Snow in the North, Sand in Dorne, Stone in the Eerie and Waters in the Crownlands. There more that I can't think of right now but you get the idea.

golfball37

Penn wrote: »

Ramsey was legitimised as Roose Bolton's heir by the King. He went from Ramsey Snow to Ramsey Bolton before he became Lord of Winterfell. Jon Snow hasn't been legitimised. He's still a Snow. But, the people of the North know that, and have named him King anyway. Bran, as true-born heir to Ned Stark could challenge him for the position, but won't, so it's a fairly moot point.



It doesn't mean Jon was born a King. Rhaegar was married to Prince Oberyn's sister (the one The Mountain killed), but he ran away with Lyanna. He and Lyanna were never married. The Kingsguard would have stayed protecting Lyanna because that's what they were ordered to do. I don't think they even knew that Rhaegar had been killed, but even if they did, they stayed out of loyalty to Rhaegar. If Rhaegar told them to protect Lyanna with their lives, they stayed to do so as no new king (in this case, Robert) commanded them to do otherwise. Plus, they saw Robert as being a Usurper and therefore not their true King.

Unless it's revealed that if Oberyn's sister and her children died before Rhaegar got Lyanna pregnant, then maybe Jon wouldn't be a bastard, but I'm not sure on the timeline of the stuff that happened round then.

They did know he was dead- I looked for you on the trident said young Ned to ser Arthur.

Seaba

When we didn't see Ellaria and Tyene actually die I am holding out for Bronn to save Tyene with an antidote! Please make it happen.

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I thought he already ruled the north::D

And I'd just like to take a moment to, well, thank everyone who has made this my most thanked post. To be honest I owe it all to the poster who called Sansa 'Santa'. I'm glad to say it has eclipsed my 'Jewish paedophile' gag in the "try harder if ye want a second joke thread thread," which somehow isn't the same fount of innocent hilarity in these post-Myers times...

Penn

golfball37 wrote: »

They did know he was dead- I looked for you on the trident said young Ned to ser Arthur.

"We weren't there" replied Ser Arthur.

I only know that because I actually rewatched that scene last night. Such a great scene.

Edit: Actually, best to post the full scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aO_CsqfBAo

"Why weren't you there to protect your Prince?"
"Our Prince wanted us here"

Even knowing Rhaegar (and the Mad King) were both dead, they still called Rhaegar their Prince and fought Ned et al out of loyalty to him. But there's no indication that they did so because Rhaegar's child (Jon) was next in line to the throne. They were just loyal and following their orders.

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wp_rathead

Seaba wrote: »

When we didn't see Ellaria and Tyene actually die I am holding out for Bronn to save Tyene with an antidote! Please make it happen.

I know poison is called Long Farewell but Jamie was in Kings Landing when Cersei poisoned her, and was then seen with Bronn at Highgarden though, I'd imagine Tyene will be long dead by time Bronn makes it back to Kings Landing - that's a lotta traveling
Hopefully Bronn mentions her in some future episode, she did save his life

My favorite line:

" this is Danaeryes Targareon, first of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "


" This is Jon Snow"

s15r330

....... wrote: »

There would be no one to follow orders for once the Mad King and Rheagar were dead though. The whole of House Targaryen was gone. If they wanted to remain loyal to the House they would have gone with Dany and Viserys.

The job of the Kingsguard is to protect the King. The only King left to protect at that point was (possibly) Jon Snow.

I dunno, Rhaegar ordered them to protect Lyanna and the baby instead of being in battle with him which i'm sure is where they'd have rather been.
They loved Rhaegar, they would (and did) fight to the end to carry out his wishes. I think that was most of it, it just so happened that Jon was next in line and they'd have to protect him anyway. But they would have done it anyway.

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Penn

....... wrote: »

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It wasn't about remaining loyal to House Targaryen, it was about remaining loyal to Rhaegar and what he asked/ordered them to do. It's there in the scene, they said their Prince wanted them there. Even after hearing he was dead (or if they already knew it), they stayed and fought to the death. They may not have even known Lyanna had given birth by that point as they were outside. Hell they may not have even known Rhaegar's other children who were legitimate heirs to the throne were dead.

I don't think it's an important point which really needs to be clarified. There's a war going on. Whoever is left at the end of it will be King/Queen, regardless of legitimate claims to the throne through birthright, like with Cersei now.

zzfh

Careful out there boyo's. Apparently script leaks all over the interwebs for s7 and s8.

mcgiggles

Skyrimaddict wrote:

" This is Jon Snow"

.....uh........ *Looks at Jon*.......




King in the North....

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evil_seed

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

My favorite line:

" this is Danaeryes Targareon, first of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "


" This is Jon Snow"

He's a right proper lad

J. Marston

Right proper.

Daledge

zzfh wrote: »

Careful out there boyo's. Apparently script leaks all over the interwebs for s7 and s8.

I will not be held responsible for my actions if someone intentionally spoils this for me.

wp_rathead

....... wrote: »

Yes, their prince wanted them there - because he knew his son was being born there. Even after he was dead they stayed and fought to the death. Do you really think they would do this for a bastard? For what?

"Protect the King" is the primary vow of the Kingsguard. I believe thats why they stayed after they knew Rheagar was dead, not because they were being loyal to him, but because they were protecting the king.

Because Rheagar commanded it
Like I get your point, but if Rheagar had commanded them to protect a Starbucks they'd have died protecting it, even after Rheagar is known to be dead. they were that loyal to him

podgemonster

You're right they were loyal but to add to that....


Rheagar was dead by the time Ned got to the Tower and so was the Mad King.


The Kingsguard were now guarding the new King by succession, Jon Snow.

zzfh

Daledge wrote: »

I will not be held responsible for my actions if someone intentionally spoils this for me.

Stay off reddit and stuff like that. I seen one posted on FB, i don't know if it's true or someone trolling.

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It was said a few times in the TV series that the Kingsguard were more loyal to Rhegar than the king himself, because Rhegar was a people person and had fought with them in the past. They were loyal to him, but also it has been said many, many times that a kingsguard MUST obey the orders of their king, such as the beating Sansa took by them on orders from Joffrey.

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....... wrote: »

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What, from all the previous series???


It has been spoken about by Varys, Littlefinger, Barriston and a few others in speaking about Rhaeger. No i dont have all the links of bits and bobs that everyone spoke about him while on screen.

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jcd5971

rawn wrote:

Bastard names are based on location not families. Snow in the North, Sand in Dorne, Stone in the Eerie and Waters in the Crownlands. There more that I can't think of right now but you get the idea.

Pyke in iron islands
Rivers riverlands
Flowers in the reach
Storm in stormlands
Hill for westerlands

And a kind of earned title is another Targaryen one blackfyre. Kind of more of a deal in the books though this one.