Hints for cornering?

I love Sean nos

I realise that this is a really open question, but I got a problem with cornering. I have not yet got the confidence in the bike/tyres and seem to slow down way too much and then struggle to drive into the corner. There is no reason for this, I mean the bike hasn't done anything to make me doubt, it's all me.

Is this something that will come to me over time and I have to practice, practice, practice, or are they any hints that I could use?

GBX

Yes it is something that will come with time. Are the tyres new?
Is there somewhere you can practice like a large shopping centre car park near you?

Paulw

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I realise that this is a really open question, but I got a problem with cornering. I have not yet got the confidence in the bike/tyres and seem to slow down way too much and then struggle to drive into the corner. There is no reason for this, I mean the bike hasn't done anything to make me doubt, it's all me.

Is this something that will come to me over time and I have to practice, practice, practice, or are they any hints that I could use?

Sounds totally familiar. It's a confidence thing. I am the very same. Some days, I have a good day and feel comfortable, and take corners with ease. Other days I just don't feel it, and slow down for the exact same corners.

Nothing at all that the bike can't handle, so I know it's all in my head.

It's fine to slow down, so that you are comfortable. Nothing worse than going in faster than you are comfortable and then end up not making it and going over on the wrong side of the road, or worse yet, hitting something or going off the road. :eek:

Just take your time and build your comfort level.

Wonda-Boy

Fair play for posting up the question in the 1st place, alot of people on motorbikes think they know it all and that they are the best rider since slice bread. You never stop learning on a bike I tell you that.

Cornering is all about confidence BUT there is an awful lot of things you can do before the corner to make life easier for yourself, I can only offer advice for what I do personally and it will differ from everyone else that posts up.

Basic rules I follow are make sure you are in the correct gear BEFORE the corner, you dont want to be upsetting the bike just before you turn in. You should have done the work before entry like reading the aspect of the corner (is it falling away from you, gentle bend or getting tighter a sharp bend) have the bike in the correct position for the left or right turn. When in the correct gear tip the bike in with a slight positive throttle so that the grip is on the rear tyre. Always look where you want to go, never look down before the front wheel (alot of new guys to bikes do this, they never look at the exit of the corner)

If in the correct gear for the corner and you release the throttle (for whatever reason) the bike should slow instantly as the revs are high and the bike is responsive. If in the wrong gear the bike will be limp and unresponsive and hard to control and make you run wide.

Continue to look through the corner and gradually accelerate as the bike stands up, if you do come into the corner a bit fast use the back brake to scrub off the excess speed and dont panic (I know its easier said then done)

I am sure people on here will pick the bones out of this and disagree with it or word it better but that is the basis of good cornering.....

We also have a few IBT instructors on here that will no doubt post up the way to corner word for word RSA textbook jobbie in due course!

Lyle Lanley

Position yourself so you can see as far as possible, fully left for right handers, fully right for left handers.

Trust the bike, if you take it too fast countersteering will drop you down further and take you around.

I love Sean nos

Thanks everyone for the responses.

GBX wrote: »

Are the tyres new?

They're quite new. Bridgestone Battlax with plenty of thread. I don't think I'm challenging them at all.

GBX wrote: »

Is there somewhere you can practice like a large shopping centre car park near you?

There are the carparks at work that I could practice in evenings and weekends. I already do that for slow work, slaloming, figures 8s, u-turns, etc.

Paulw wrote: »

Some days, I have a good day and feel comfortable, and take corners with ease. Other days I just don't feel it, and slow down for the exact same corners.

That's it exactly. Some days are better than others, but the consistency isn't there yet.

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Basic rules I follow are make sure you are in the correct gear BEFORE the corner, you dont want to be upsetting the bike just before you turn in. You should have done the work before entry like reading the aspect of the corner

I think this has gotten better for me. I used to enter slower corners in 3rd on the Fz6, but that was because I'd probably take the same corner in 3rd in the car and nothing else. I've started taking them in 4th and I think it's better overall, less snappy on the throttle.

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Always look where you want to go, never look down before the front wheel (alot of new guys to bikes do this, they never look at the exit of the corner)

I haven't quite mastered this yet, it's still a bit hit and miss, depending on how well I feel the corner is going.

Lyle Lanley wrote: »

Position yourself so you can see as far as possible, fully left for right handers, fully right for left handers.

I have this bit for the most part. The exceptions are the council, when they dump a load of manholes in the middle of a corner or if there are ripples or other defects in the line through the corner. Stuff that I wouldn't care about in the car.

Lyle Lanley wrote: »

Trust the bike, if you take it too fast countersteering will drop you down further and take you around.

I haven't figured out countersteering yet. I know that it exists, but I don't know how to do it yet. I'm wary of jerking the bars too quickly.

frozenfrozen

you definitely have countersteering figured out if you have gone around a bend faster than 10 miles an hour.. it's how you steer a bike, push left bar to go left push right to go right

it'll all come in time, I'm only on the bike a year and it never just clicks you just keep getting better and better so pay heed to the few tips on here but just keep practising

most important part is slow in fast out and always be going at a speed you're comfortable with stopping from within the distance you see to be clear. Always....

take all your weight off the bars, you'll find the bike feels 10 times happier when all you're doing is working the controls with the bars and steering rather than holding on. squeeze with your legs to do this but you get to a stage where you don't have to squeeze you just get comfortable with how the bike feels

start turning later into the corner. approach in a straight line and slow down to whatever speed you're comfortable with on approach, be in the right gear, see through the bend and then tip the bike in all the way and do a tight turn. if that doesn't make sense don't worry about it that will click with you when you are 100% confident on the controls etc and you just get that you have way more view when you turn a bend into a corner if you know what I mean.

in your comment above saying you're going around slow bends in 4th gear, maybe we have different ideas of slow bends but for me a slow bend is first/ second gear, make sure you have the revs high enough that the engine has loads of power and won't bog down it's important to keep accelerating just a tiny bit while going around a corner to keep the weight on the rear tyre

also if gravel / big pot holes or man holes are in your way now and upsetting the bike mid corner the answer is simple, go find better roads to practise on. It's no big deal coming up on something like that when you are comfortable but no point worrying about that type of stuff when you are just getting comfortable.. find a nice loop of a couple of hours of nice roads and do it a good few times

Paulw

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I think this has gotten better for me. I used to enter slower corners in 3rd on the Fz6, but that was because I'd probably take the same corner in 3rd in the car and nothing else. I've started taking them in 4th and I think it's better overall, less snappy on the throttle.

I haven't figured out countersteering yet. I know that it exists, but I don't know how to do it yet. I'm wary of jerking the bars too quickly.

With the gears, if anything, you should be in a lower gear than you think, so that you have more engine breaking. So, if you normally take it in 3rd gear, then consider trying it in 2nd gear. It is always better to be able to use engine breaking to slow down, than to have too much gear. Also, with that bike, you should still have plenty of power to accelerate out of the corner and then up shift.

You have used countersteering, but you aren't always conscious of it. You are not thinking hard about it, but you ARE doing it. Next time, just look at what you are doing, without thinking about it. You will find that you are countersteering just fine. Plenty of decent Youtube clips about countersteering.

Pugzilla

rustynutz

Pick up a copy of 'twist of the wrist 2" has all the information you need to start gaining more confidence in the corners

hairyslug

I have a strange one, going into left hand bends/corners, not a bother, will tip it right down, just can't do it to right hand bends, I have no confidence at all, it's not a bike or tyre thing, I've felt this way since as far as I can remember, when I do do it, I really need to force myself and it feels like it's using a lot more concentration that going to the other side.

Max Headroom

Pugzilla wrote: »

PMSL......now THATS good comedy....:D:D:D:D:D

Max Headroom

hairyslug wrote: »

I have a strange one, going into left hand bends/corners, not a bother, will tip it right down, just can't do it to right hand bends, I have no confidence at all, it's not a bike or tyre thing, I've felt this way since as far as I can remember, when I do do it, I really need to force myself and it feels like it's using a lot more concentration that going to the other side.

Are you right-handed...??

hairyslug

Max Headroom wrote: »

Are you right-handed...??

Yeah, I'm the same in a car aswell if I'm messing about, can take a left much more comfortably and know exactly where it is

frozenfrozen

that's a strange one if you find right bends slower in a car too... could it be that you don't feel like you have the extra 'run off' room of the other lane?

ratracer

hairyslug wrote: »

I have a strange one, going into left hand bends/corners, not a bother, will tip it right down, just can't do it to right hand bends, I have no confidence at all, it's not a bike or tyre thing, I've felt this way since as far as I can remember, when I do do it, I really need to force myself and it feels like it's using a lot more concentration that going to the other side.

To practice leaning to the right, find a nice big roundabout that you can see all round. Pick a quiet time for traffic ( early Sunday morning) and just tip round and round it until you're confident with it!!

Max Headroom

It's a self preservation thing in year head....tbh i was the same till I did some track days..took me ages to get me right knee down..left slider was worn raw...

cantdecide

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you definitely have countersteering figured out if you have gone around a bend faster than 10 miles an hour.. it's how you steer a bike, push left bar to go left push right to go right

I know at least one rider that doesn't counter steer and favours basically leaning/ falling into the corners. The effect is that it makes them slow and rigid. He was telling me last year that they were "experimenting" with countersteering on a long ride. He has a full licence and has been riding for years.

When I started riding, it was pre IBT but I got the ROSPA Silver training in order get an insurance discount. They didn't mention countersteering even once. I remember whinging on Bicker.ie about struggling with cornering for the first week or two and being shown it by way of Youtube instructional video. I then rode out of my house and when I got to the very first bend and realising I'd been trying the steer wrong all along.

frozenfrozen

can't imagine trying to exit a roundabout without steering with my hands, what does he do if he needs to swerve quickly

scarebus03

There is too much emphasis on counter steering and it seems to confuse people. If the bike is going around a corner leaned at over 10mph then naturally the rider is counter steering. It's when riders start thinking about it that it all goes wrong.
One of the issues I found when starting out was the that the riding portion of the IBT was fantastic as it covered proper road riding but afterwards you spent 6 months practicing for a test based solely on slow urban riding. You do not get much variation in cornering around the Finglas area! So you pass your test accustomed to 2nd and 3rd gear slow riding then start with the real deal. Head out around the Naul and realise those corners need real planning and you must process what you're coming into much quicker to set up the bike prior to entry. For most of them 2nd and 3rd gear leave the back wheel way too responsive for both rolling on and if overcooked rolling off. But after giving yourself the time, learning your bike and putting up a few 1000kms it all comes together. A light tip of the back brake was sometimes necessary to tidy it up on a corner that caught me out due to inexperience (still happens but as an exception these days). Ride to your limits and they will change over time. Now I smile after a good blast on those roads that terrified me in the beginning when I think back. Stay safe

cantdecide

frozenfrozen wrote: »

can't imagine trying to exit a roundabout without steering with my hands, what does he do if he needs to swerve quickly

He's usually riding too slow to get into situations where cornering quickly comes up. He's the slowest thing on the road and often holds up other traffic...

Zipppy

Paulw wrote:

With the gears, if anything, you should be in a lower gear than you think, so that you have more engine breaking. So, if you normally take it in 3rd gear, then consider trying it in 2nd gear. It is always better to be able to use engine breaking to slow down, than to have too much gear. Also, with that bike, you should still have plenty of power to accelerate out of the corner and then up shift.

Great advice....experienced riders hardly used their brakes at all...engine braking does most of the stopping / slowing...

I love Sean nos

Zipppy wrote: »

Great advice....experienced riders hardly used their brakes at all...engine braking does most of the stopping / slowing...

I'm finding that already. Generally though I do give the brake pedal a nudge, just to light up for whomever is behind me.

Wonda-Boy

hairyslug wrote: »

I have a strange one, going into left hand bends/corners, not a bother, will tip it right down, just can't do it to right hand bends, I have no confidence at all, it's not a bike or tyre thing, I've felt this way since as far as I can remember, when I do do it, I really need to force myself and it feels like it's using a lot more concentration that going to the other side.

Id say its because the camber of the road is different when going right then left, when going left you are with the camber when going right you are against it and make the bike feel and react differently.

HOWEVER, dont know why to feel it in a car TBH.

Lumen

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

Id say its because the camber of the road is different when going right then left, when going left you are with the camber when going right you are against it and make the bike feel and react differently.

Yes, this also means that (assuming sufficient visibility and all else is equal) you can go faster round left hand bends than right hand ones. As long as you're staying on the LHS of the road.

If you have a broken line and sufficient visibility (unusual on country roads) you can cross the centre to smooth the line, and you also get extra grip if you're going right.

But (importantly) if you're going round a well-sighted left hand bend and cross the centre line, your grip will drop off and you may embrace the ditch. :pac:

Reverse all advice for riding on the continent.

zubair

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I'm finding that already. Generally though I do give the brake pedal a nudge, just to light up for whomever is behind me.

Look where you want to go and get out on a spin with the lads, you'll learn loads.

Also it is fairly normal to analyse your corners and riding.

Cian_ok

hairyslug wrote: »

I have a strange one, going into left hand bends/corners, not a bother, will tip it right down, just can't do it to right hand bends, I have no confidence at all, it's not a bike or tyre thing, I've felt this way since as far as I can remember, when I do do it, I really need to force myself and it feels like it's using a lot more concentration that going to the other side.

I do this too on the bike. I think it's something to do with holding the throttle with my right hand.
I've never noticed any difference in the car

thos

zubair wrote: »

Look where you want to go

That's was a big one for me in the beginning, and took a bit of getting used to, but is a very important aspect.

The_Chap

I find backing it in and lifting the front on the way out the most effective


Seriously though not much to add here, all good advice about getting your corner entry speed right, you can always wind it on when you see the corner exit. I very rarely brake for corners, I like to use the gears to control the speed - obviously when you are having a more spirited ride you have to use the brakes more

Paulw

Here's how NOT to take a corner - too fast, too high a gear, and just not concentrating properly.

Yep, it was ME. :rolleyes:

The_Chap

Paulw wrote: »

Here's how NOT to take a corner - too fast, too high a gear, and just not concentrating properly.

Yep, it was ME. :rolleyes:

haha that was me going past you thinking "where the f**k are you going" haha

Lumen

^^ it looks to me like simply preparing for the corner too late.

The vanishing (limit) point was moving towards you and you weren't slowing down to match it.

Wonda-Boy

Paulw wrote: »

Here's how NOT to take a corner - too fast, too high a gear, and just not concentrating properly.

Yep, it was ME. :rolleyes:

WHO IS THAT LUNATIC LEADING.....MY GOD, ROSSI is it????

;)

frozenfrozen

what kind of cameras do you have paul, are they separate or linked somehow?


edit...
just looked at another video and see your set up now...

tobottherobot

Had similar issues myself... did the follow up training and turned out I was focusing on everything else rather than where I was going (kerbs, speed etc.) to the point I was getting frazzled, slowing and wobbling.

Might not be the same in your case but try lift the head and look further out ahead (y)

Esel

Countersteering.

Look where you want to go.

Vanishing point.

These three concepts will help - a lot!

Cienciano

Paulw wrote: »

Here's how NOT to take a corner - too fast, too high a gear, and just not concentrating properly.

Yep, it was ME. :rolleyes:

That's a great video. Hands up people who have never done exactly that at some point? No one? Just as I thought

Cienciano

rustynutz wrote: »

Pick up a copy of 'twist of the wrist 2" has all the information you need to start gaining more confidence in the corners

Yeah, loads of brilliant tips in this video. Well worth a watch.

GBX

Cienciano wrote: »

That's a great video. Hands up people who have never done exactly that at some point? No one? Just as I thought

Yep .. sure have. We all make mistakes .. keeps you on your toes!

Paulw

Cienciano wrote: »

That's a great video. Hands up people who have never done exactly that at some point? No one? Just as I thought

Thankfully, I haven't done it again since. Major lesson learned. I was really loving the ride that day until that point. Major reality check for me.

And, by watching mistakes (your own or others), we tend to learn more.

Max Headroom

More people should be forced by law to do track days..its the only real safe way to learn control at speed..fannying around at 50 isnt it...;)

Wonda-Boy

A motor-cross day would benefit you a hell of alot more then a track-day for motorbike experience but I get your point.

The only way to get good at anything is practise and motorbikes are no different, the more time you put in the more you get out. It helps if you have people around you to help/show you a few tips and tricks but you never stop learning.

batman_oh

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

A motor-cross day would benefit you a hell of alot more then a track-day for motorbike experience but I get your point.

The only way to get good at anything is practise and motorbikes are no different, the more time you put in the more you get out. It helps if you have people around you to help/show you a few tips and tricks but you never stop learning.

A trackday is much more relevant to cornering on the road as it will let you experience what the bike is capable of in corners. Motocross is completely different and you don't take corners on a road bike the same way. It is useful for other things though!

frozenfrozen

why not both

Wonda-Boy

batman_oh wrote: »

A trackday is much more relevant to cornering on the road as it will let you experience what the bike is capable of in corners. Motocross is completely different and you don't take corners on a road bike the same way. It is useful for other things though!

I did say motorbike experience, not just for cornering. Cornering is only a small part of motorbikes. Motor-cross will give you a hell of alot of confidence in all aspects of motorcycling incld getting over the fear of having a spill....and is unbelievably hard on the body so is a great work out.

But yeah if you dream about getting your knee down then a track day is a great idea and good fun.

Paulw

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

But yeah if you dream about getting your knee down then a track day is a great idea and good fun.

If I got my knee down, I'd be in serious trouble. If I had my panniers on, they would probably hit the ground before my knee would.

batman_oh

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

I did say motorbike experience, not just for cornering. Cornering is only a small part of motorbikes. Motor-cross will give you a hell of alot of confidence in all aspects of motorcycling incld getting over the fear of having a spill....and is unbelievably hard on the body so is a great work out.

But yeah if you dream about getting your knee down then a track day is a great idea and good fun.

The thread was about cornering - you don't need to be getting your knee down to learn how to do it a lot better. The track will also help you learn more about braking and help with bad habits like going for the brakes mid corner when you could just lean more and make it around if you were more used to how the bike corners. It's also hard work, maybe not as much as dirt biking but much more than road riding,

I'm not seeing how dirt biking is more applicable to a tarmac road myself.

Wonda-Boy

batman_oh wrote: »

The thread was about cornering - you don't need to be getting your knee down to learn how to do it a lot better. The track will also help you learn more about braking and help with bad habits like going for the brakes mid corner when you could just lean more and make it around if you were more used to how the bike corners. It's also hard work, maybe not as much as dirt biking but much more than road riding,

I'm not seeing how dirt biking is more applicable to a tarmac road myself.

M8 I know the thread is about cornering. OP said a track day is great for cornering which I agreed. I just said that OVERALL a motor x day would be better for learning what a bike and rider can do rather then a track day, I know you are an avid trackday rider no one is bashing trackdays.

In relation to not seeing how dirt biking is more applicable to tarmac roads you really need to google it. There is a very good reason that Moto GP racers do it every chance they get and that Rossi build a track at the back of his house....

I have done both track-days and the dirt bike sessions and I found the DB sessions invaluable.

But here are just a few reasons why motor x/dirt bike riding is extremely useful for biking in general:-

Moto cross is a fantastic way to better develop your “feel” for motorcycle controls in general.

The feel we’re talking about here is the fine, delicate feedback you get through your butt and your feet and hands on the controls (clutch, throttle, front brake, shift lever and brake pedal), along with the simultaneous application of those various controls. On the dirt, you can feel more easily for threshold braking, lean angles, the friction zone of the clutch, sliding tires and precise shifting and throttle control. Good feel comes when all your senses and muscles are working together. Dirtbiking helps you “become one” with any motorcycle you ride which in turn translates to street bikes.

Moto Cross / Dirtbikes are a better place to learn braking and turning skills and their limits.
Braking and turning are two of the most important fundamental skills you must have to ride a motorcycle properly, and natural terra firma is the best place to learn and develop those skills. To be good at serious braking, you must practice by exceeding the limits consistently and safely to develop a feel for operating right at the limit, where braking is best. For obvious reasons, dirt is the best place to reach those limits. In the same way to be good at serious leaning, you must practice by leaning too much and low-siding to better understand the limits. With proper leaning skills learned in the dirt, there’s a greater chance you’ll be comfortable when the tires do slide on pavement so you don’t panic and overreact.


Dirt is a better place to become accustomed to speed.

Motor Cross and Dirtbikes are fast, but they’re mild compared to the acceleration and sheer speed that a streetbike can attain. Not many people are prepared and qualified for how fast streetbikes really are. The truth is, most people will only go as fast as they feel comfortable with, regardless of their engine size. Why not learn to walk before you run? Concentrate on control in the dirt first where speeds are slower. Improve your control, which builds your confidence and eventually, you’ll be going faster both on the dirt and the street.

Motor Cross and Dirt riding is a better place to learn how to help your bike.
In the dirt, you learn how to lean, move forward and rearward on the seat, stand up and move your body side-to-side. You can’t move much on a streetbike, but it doesn’t take much body movement to help it a lot. In the dirt, there’s no such thing as moving too much, and you quickly learn how your body position can really help (or hurt) your bike’s handling. By the time you hop on streetbike, you’ll already have a great knowledge of weight transfer, and it should be a snap.


Dirt is a better overall environment for learning to ride motorcycles.

Besides the fact that a dirt surface is much more forgiving than pavement, softer, there are also far fewer distractions out on the trail than on the street. There are no cars or pedestrians to avoid, traffic laws to obey or pretty girls walking along the sidewalk to distract you. Sure, there are hazards in the dirt, but they’re nothing like the abundant distractions found on the street. Dirt riding is where you should learn to become a great rider so that when you hit the street, those skills will better ensure that you will never make a big mistake in that less-forgiving environment.

Lumen

Wonda-Boy wrote: »

In the same way to be good at serious leaning, you must practice by leaning too much and low-siding to better understand the limits.

That sounds like an expensive lesson.

I haven't done any proper off-roading, but I did at least learn that on loose surfaces at low speed (my crappy gravel driveway) you have to keep the bike upright and turn the bars rather than leaning.

The tip I got was "ride it like you have a pizza box balanced on top of the tank".

The_Chap

The off-road experience is actually a good point WondaBar is making, I completely forgot that I'd been riding dirt bikes from 7yr old, I grew up on a farm and got an Italjet 50 for Xmas that year from my brothers much to my mams disappointment lol

Anyways, whenever I've pushed too hard and had slippage - it hasn't been an issue as I instinctively know how to correct without realising it - I found this out recently giving a handful on a drying road overtaking, felt back end step out but thought nothing of it, when we'd parked up my mate came over who was behind me and said I thought you were gone there, it looked more impressive than it felt

I could have learned that on a trackday of which I've also done, but it would be a more expensive lesson to learn if I found any limit!

gerrowadat

It's something I've always thought of doing and I think Wonda's spot on, knowing the limits of the bike and how it behaves adversely is my #1 point that stops me improving. I wish there was something equivalent to a skid car you could learn this sort of stuff on, or somewhere you could do offroad or motox without spending an arm or a leg or being surrounded by beemer heads (the bad kind, I'm the good kind you understand).