Part 4 expiry

Amouar

Hi ,

I have a question regarding Part 4 expiry. I understand that the landlord (An investment fund in my case) can terminate the tenancy for any reason during the first 6 months after the end of the Part 4 duration and hence preventing a further part 4 tenancy from taking place.

My question is the following:
If they decide to kick me out after the expiry of my part 4 , are they allowed to ask new tenants to pay more than 4% of the price that I was paying ( appartment is in a Rent pressure zone) or they should not increase by more than 4%?

Thanks!

Samuel T. Cogley

Correct they can't ask for more that the RPZ allowed rent increase. They may also not be able to terminate a subsequent Part IV expect on the specified grounds and the new Part IV is 6 years. Not entirely sure if the legislation provides for differences to people hitting subsequent Part IV's depending on when their Part IV started or not. Suffice it to say the legislation changed recently.

Amouar

What I want to prevent is that this landlord (Investment fund owning the whole building) kicks me out within the 6 months post part 4 tenancy because I'm currently paying less than the current price of similar appartments in order to get a tenant willing to pay more.

What do you recommend to do if this happens to me?

Samuel T. Cogley

Amouar wrote: »

What I want to prevent is that this landlord (Investment fund owning the whole building) kick me out within the 6 months post part 4 tenancy because I'm currently paying less than the current price of similar appartments in order to get a tenant willing to pay more.

What do you recommend to do if this happens to me?

Firstly check whether you subsequent pat IV can be terminated within the first six months. I don't think it can be, only an initial (the first) Part IV can if I'm correct. I will be corrected very quickly if I'm wrong :pac:

Part IVs can be terminated on specified grounds as I'm sure you're aware. If that's the case, sale for example, then you can't do anything. Regardless of anything, sale, new tenants etc. etc. barring a substantial refurbishment the place can't be rented for more than you rented it for, bar the RPZ increase.

If they try to evict you, you would go to the RTB for adjudication.

Amouar

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Firstly check whether you subsequent pat IV can be terminated within the first six months. I don't think it can be, only an initial (the first) Part IV can if I'm correct. I will be corrected very quickly if I'm wrong :pac:

Part IVs can be terminated on specified grounds as I'm sure you're aware. If that's the case, sale for example, then you can't do anything. Regardless of anything, sale, new tenants etc. etc. barring a substantial refurbishment the place can't be rented for more than you rented it for, bar the RPZ increase.

If they try to evict you, you would go to the RTB for adjudication.

My initial part 4 tenancy started almost 4 years ago and will expire soon. I was reading online and I didn't find any exceptions to the fact that part 4 tenancies can be terminated for any reason during the 6 months following the expiry, hence preventing further part 4 tenancy from taking place.

This investment fund just bought the whole building less than a year ago, therefore I don't think that they will be selling it again.

Samuel T. Cogley

My terminology was wrong - further Part IV

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/7/made/en/print



• Sections 41 and 42 provide for the abolition of the landlord’s right, during the first 6 months of a further Part 4 tenancy, to terminate that tenancy for no stated ground;

Amouar

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

My terminology was wrong - further Part IV

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/7/made/en/print



• Sections 41 and 42 provide for the abolition of the landlord’s right, during the first 6 months of a further Part 4 tenancy, to terminate that tenancy for no stated ground;

You're right!

They can only prevent further part 4 for the following reasons:

1. The tenant has failed to comply with any of his or her obligations in relation to the tenancy (whether arising under this Act or otherwise) and, unless the failure provides an excepted basis for termination—

(a) the tenant has been notified of the failure by the landlord and that notification states that the landlord is entitled to terminate the tenancy if the failure is not remedied within a reasonable time specified in that notification, and

(b) the tenant does not remedy the failure within that specified time.

2. The dwelling is no longer suitable to the accommodation needs of the tenant and of any persons residing with him or her having regard to the number of bed spaces contained in the dwelling and the size and composition of the occupying household.

3. The landlord intends, within 3 months after the termination of the tenancy under this section, to enter into an enforceable agreement for the transfer to another, for full consideration, of the whole of his or her interest in the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling.

4. The landlord requires the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling for his or her own occupation or for occupation by a member of his or her family and the notice of termination (the “notice”) contains or is accompanied, in writing, by a statement—

(a) specifying—

(i) the intended occupant's identity and (if not the landlord) his or her relationship to the landlord, and

(ii) the expected duration of that occupation,

and

(b) that the landlord, by virtue of the notice, is required to offer to the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling if the contact details requirement is complied with and the following conditions are satisfied—

(i) the dwelling is vacated by the person referred to in subparagraph (a) within the period of 6 months from expiry of the period of notice required to be given by the notice or, if a dispute in relation to the validity of the notice was referred to the Board under Part 6 for resolution, the final determination of the dispute, and

(ii) the tenancy to which the notice related had not otherwise been validly terminated by virtue of the citation in the notice of the ground specified in paragraph 1, 2, 3 or 6 of this Table.

5. The landlord intends to substantially refurbish or renovate the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling in a way which requires the dwelling to be vacated for that purpose (and, where planning permission is required for the carrying out of that refurbishment or renovation, that permission has been obtained) and the notice of termination (the “notice”) contains or is accompanied, in writing, by a statement—

(a) specifying the nature of the intended works, and

(b) that the landlord, by virtue of the notice, is required to offer to the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling if the contact details requirement is complied with and the following conditions are satisfied—

(i) the dwelling becomes available for reletting, and

(ii) the tenancy to which the notice related had not otherwise been validly terminated by virtue of the citation in the notice of the ground specified in paragraph 1, 2, 3 or 6 of this Table.

6. The landlord intends to change the use of the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling to some other use (and, where planning permission is required for that change of use, that permission has been obtained) and the notice of termination (the “notice”) contains or is accompanied, in writing, by a statement—

(a) specifying the nature of the intended use, and

(b) that the landlord, by virtue of the notice, is required to offer to the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling if the contact details requirement is complied with and the following conditions are satisfied—

(i) the dwelling becomes available for reletting within the period of 6 months from expiry of the period of notice required to be given by the notice or, if a dispute in relation to the validity of the notice was referred to the Board under Part 6 for resolution, the final determination of the dispute, and

(ii) the tenancy to which the notice related had not otherwise been validly terminated by virtue of the citation in the notice of the ground specified in paragraph 1, 2 or 3 of this Table.

Samuel T. Cogley

Amouar wrote: »

You're right!

They can only prevent further part 4 for the following reasons:

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day... :cool:

Amouar

The question now is: Does this new law applies to all part 4 tenancies or only those started after 17th January 2017? I assume that it applies to all part 4 tenancies as it's not mentionned otherwise anywhere.

GGTrek

I am sorry but the OP has received wrong advice. Section 42 has been abolished. Only Section 34 (b) stands, which means that notice not to grant new part 4 tenancy has to be served BEFORE the termination of the current part 4 tenancy.

To the OP on practical terms your landlord has a massive advantage in terminating your part 4 tenancy even if he cannot increase rent. I shall not go into any detail. Perform a deep search into this forum to understand why.

the RTA 2016 was a poisonous present for tenants and landlords alike: there are no free lunches unlike what some socialists think

Samuel T. Cogley

GGTrek wrote: »

I am sorry but the OP has received wrong advice. Section 42 has been abolished. Only Section 34 (b) stands, which means that notice not to grant new part 4 tenancy has to be served BEFORE the termination of the current part 4 tenancy.

To the OP on practical terms your landlord has a massive advantage in terminating your part 4 tenancy even if he cannot increase rent. I shall not go into any detail. Perform a deep search into this forum to understand why.

the RTA 2016 was a poisonous present for tenants and landlords alike: there are no free lunches unlike what some socialists think

Apologies OP and thanks for the correction GGtrek.

GGTrek

It applies to all part 4 tenancies and the reason can simply be: I do not wish to grant you a new part 4 tenancy. It does not need to be one if the reasons stated above.
https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/sample-notice---terminating-before-a-further-part-4-commences-16-01-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=2

I tested a slightly different written notice than this one prepared by a top solicitor at RTB adjudication against a really smart ass bad tenant and it was a pleasure to see the adjudicator trying to plead on behalf the tenant wrongly adviced to challenge the notice from that dysfunctional ngo called Threshold.

Amouar

GGTrek wrote: »

I am sorry but the OP has received wrong advice. Section 42 has been abolished. Only Section 34 (b) stands, which means that notice not to grant new part 4 tenancy has to be served BEFORE the termination of the current part 4 tenancy.

To the OP on practical terms your landlord has a massive advantage in terminating your part 4 tenancy even if he cannot increase rent. I shall not go into any detail. Perform a deep search into this forum to understand why.

the RTA 2016 was a poisonous present for tenants and landlords alike: there are no free lunches unlike what some socialists think

Does it mean that if the part 4 termination notice is given during the 6 months after the part 4 expiry then the notice is not valid since it was not given during the part 4 duration?
I can't seem to find this anywhere.

Thanks

Michael D Not Higgins

Amouar wrote: »

Does it mean that if the part 4 termination notice is given during the 6 months after the part 4 expiry then the notice is not valid since it was not given during the part 4 duration?
I can't seem to find this anywhere.

Thanks

The 6 months after Part 4 termination is only allowed by Section 42. This has been repealed last year. They can terminate using Section 34 b which must be served before the further Part 4 comes into being.

Samuel T. Cogley

Told you I'd get corrected quickly OP.

It's worth noting that the notice has to be correct for it to be valid, so if you get a notice get it checked and take advice. Also how soon is soon? I don't want to make comment on notice periods given my previous error but if a notice period falls outside of the remaining Part IV time (i.e. over laps with the further Part IV) what's the story?

Amouar

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

They can terminate using Section 34 b which must be served before the further Part 4 comes into being.

in other words they can give the notice in the 6 months after the expiry of part 4 as it's still before the further Part 4 comes into being?

I though that notice should only be give before the end of part 4 tenancy, hence giving it after it expires and during the following 6 months will render the notice invalid?

Samuel T. Cogley

Amouar wrote: »

in other words they can give the notice in the 6 months after the expiry of part 4 as it's still before the further Part 4 comes into being?

I though that notice should only be give before the end of part 4 tenancy, hence giving it after it expires and during the following 6 months will render the notice invalid?

A further part IV can come into being even though there was a 6 month 'probation period' previously. Although I was wrong about you not being targeted for termination I was correct in saying once the further part IV is in place you can only be terminated on the specified grounds.

GGTrek

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Told you I'd get corrected quickly OP.

It's worth noting that the notice has to be correct for it to be valid, so if you get a notice get it checked and take advice. Also how soon is soon? I don't want to make comment on notice periods given my previous error but if a notice period falls outside of the remaining Part IV time (i.e. over laps with the further Part IV) what's the story?

I did put a very detailed post on the legal forum  about section 34(b) in January where there was a very fruitful discussion with a barrister there that then I followed up with legal advice from the solicitor of the Dunivya case (which is the only settled case law for section 34(b) notices) that then I followed with a successful RTB adjudication (I really wanted the smart ass tenant out for good), unfortunately even in the legal forum as usual there were some naive ideological disturbances in the discussion from the one poster of this forum which I shall not forgive (that is why I post very much less in this forum, since I cannot stand discussions with socialists and communists, which could easily move to Cuba and Venezuela to see how well they live over there).

Let me recap how a valid section 34(b) notice (linked above) is served:

1) It has to be served BEFORE the part 4 or further part 4 period expires, preferably by hand with witness countersigning so that no smart tricks about service can be raised.

2) For a part 4, 112 days minimum notice period should be given, for a further part 4, 224 days minimum notice period shoud be given. It could be the 84 and 196 days respectively, but solicitor said that since the RTA has been written so badly this could offer something to dispute

3) It is a one off notice (if it is not valid, landlord will have to wait 6 years now to issue a new section 34(b) notice). The EXPIRY of the notice has to be at or AFTER the expiry date of the part 4 or further part 4 period. Solicitor suggests AFTER to avoid contentious issues like point 2 above.

4) It has to state a reason, but it does not need to be one of the reasons stated in the table of section 34 (part of them quere quoted in this thread), the simplest reason that no adjudicator or tenant can dispute is this: "The reason for the termination of the tenancy is due to the fact that landlord is not going to grant a new tenancy on the expiry of the Part 4 tenancy".

Personally if the tenant has misbehaved during the tenancy I like to give two notices: one in the simplest undisputable form, the second one with all the crap the tenant has been doing during the tenancy (so that it is written black and white and it becomes well clear even for the thickest tenants why they are being evicted) that the Tenants charter called the RTA does not allow to propertly use to kick out bad tenants during part 4 period like: you have paid rent late many times, you have kept the property in a very dirty state and at every inspection the bathroom and kitchen look like a dirty saucepan, you have kept people living with you above maximum occupancy allowed in lease for weeks, you have not called about necessary repairs and leaks and this costed me much more money to repair later on, ... These are all reasons that in theory should allow a break of lease, but the RTA allows such a lenience to the tenants that is not even worth starting a dispute if an ideological adjudicator is allocated to your case (many socialists even among them), but comes end of part 4, you can bet that I shall not forgive a bad tenant and he will feel the force of the law and damages will be paid, this also serves as a good teaching to other tenants so that they understand their responsibilities which do not terminate when paying rent.

Sorry to the posters in this thread for my bluntness which has been caused by continuous disappointment by the RTA 2016, RTB disputes, the attempt to expropriate property performed by Anti Austerity Alliance (communists) and Sinn Fein (same ideas) with the abstention of Fianna Fail in January 2017 and finally the socialist/communist posts in this forum. Tenants have to understand that the continuous blaming and legal attacks of landlords perpetuated by Threshold, hypocrite politicians and hypocrite or just plain ideological media have serious negative consequences on them in the long term. In my case 8 out of 10 tenants already lost or are loosing their tenancies within , since with the new legislation I only keep tenants that behaved very well over the years. I doubt a vulture fund will care about how the OP behaved during his tenancy unfortunately, but the delicious Irish govvie is just palnning to hand over to REITS and funds the Irish residential letting market.

Samuel T. Cogley

Thanks GGTrek, I remember that discussion now and thank you for posting a summary again, extremely helpful.

Amouar

Thanks GGTrek for the details!

Amouar

Was there any recent changes to the notice periods required?
I had a look at http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#l1715c and I was always under the impressions that the notice should be 84 days for tenancies between 3 and 4 years while it's now showing as 56 days.

Michael D Not Higgins

Amouar wrote: »

Was there any recent changes to the notice periods required?
I had a look at http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html and I was always under the impressions that the notice should be 84 days for tenancies between 3 and 4 years while it's now showing as 56 days.

That's the tenant's notice period.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

12 weeks (84 days)

Amouar

I think that the most important part of this new law for me is that even if they want to terminate my tenancy, they won't be able to get more than the 4 % increase that they would have gotten from me, and that they will go through the hassle of finding a new good tenant as I didn't have any issues with them in the past 4 years ( paying rent on time, Appartement well maintained etc)

Samuel T. Cogley

Amouar wrote: »

I think that the most important part of this new law for me is that even if they want to terminate my tenancy, they won't be able to get more than the 4 % increase that they would have gotten from me, and that they will go through the hassle of finding a new good tenant as I didn't have any issues with them in the past 4 years ( paying rent on time, Appartement well maintained etc)

Bear in mind that protection is only for three years from enactment - anyone know how long RPZ are set to run for, barring the inevitable extension?

janeausten41

Hi
Could someone please share a copy of the sample notice letter to terminate a first Part IV tenancy to prevent a new Part IV commencing. It seems to be no longer available on the RTB site. Also everything I read suggests 84 days to end on or after the expiry of the first Part IV tenancy. (I cannot find reference to 112 days as suggested above?)
Many thanks

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Claw Hammer

Heisenberg. wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

When a new tenancy is established the new rent will have to be declared to the RTB on registration. Easy for a former tenant to write in to the RTB and state what rent he had been paying.

GGTrek

janeausten41 wrote: »

Hi
Could someone please share a copy of the sample notice letter to terminate a first Part IV tenancy to prevent a new Part IV commencing. It seems to be no longer available on the RTB site. Also everything I read suggests 84 days to end on or after the expiry of the first Part IV tenancy. (I cannot find reference to 112 days as suggested above?)
Many thanks

Hi. The RTB has changed the termination notices links:
https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Disputes/Sample Notice of Termination - terminating-before-a-further-part-4-commences.docx

Yes the minimum for a part 4 served before four years expire is 84 days, using Section 61(2) of the RTA that defines how to calculate the tenancy duration period, but I have seen a few adjudicators glossing over this. 112 is the notice period for 4 years expired and no need to provide explanations on the calculation according to Section 61 (2). Also if you are terminating a further part 4 tenancy then the minimum notice period would be 196 days but recommended 224. Good luck

janeausten41

Many thanks for your response.
Can I clarify that if there are (let's say as of today) 84 days to the expiry of the 1st and original Part IV tenancy, notice could be served now providing for effectively a termination date 112 days from now which would be a further 28 days from the actual 4 year period but because the termination can end on or after the 4 year date, that would be well covered? By giving an additional month past the 4 year date, are you not de facto allowing a 2nd Part IV tenancy to commence with now a new 6 year lifespan?
Any clarification much appreciated
Cheers




Yes the minimum for a part 4 served before four years expire is 84 days, using Section 61(2) of the RTA that defines how to calculate the tenancy duration period, but I have seen a few adjudicators glossing over this. 112 is the notice period for 4 years expired and no need to provide explanations on the calculation according to Section 61 (2). Also if you are terminating a further part 4 tenancy then the minimum notice period would be 196 days but recommended 224. Good luck[/QUOTE]

GGTrek

janeausten41 wrote: »

Many thanks for your response.
Can I clarify that if there are (let's say as of today) 84 days to the expiry of the 1st and original Part IV tenancy, notice could be served now providing for effectively a termination date 112 days from now which would be a further 28 days from the actual 4 year period but because the termination can end on or after the 4 year date, that would be well covered? By giving an additional month past the 4 year date, are you not de facto allowing a 2nd Part IV tenancy to commence with now a new 6 year lifespan?
Any clarification much appreciated
Cheers


Yes the minimum for a part 4 served before four years expire is 84 days, using Section 61(2) of the RTA that defines how to calculate the tenancy duration period, but I have seen a few adjudicators glossing over this. 112 is the notice period for 4 years expired and no need to provide explanations on the calculation according to Section 61 (2). Also if you are terminating a further part 4 tenancy then the minimum notice period would be 196 days but recommended 224. Good luck

[/quote]

Please check this thread and the RTB tribunal report on section 34(b) termination notices linked in this thread:
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057782601

If you still have doubts please come back on this thread. Hope this helps on the practical side.

janeausten41

Thanks so much again
I think I'm clear.......except for one comment made whereby a minimum notice must be given but no maximum has been set except that the date of termination has to be the exact date of the end of the Part 4 tenancy?? I thought that it could be on OR AFTER the end date, so if there are 84 days left to the end of the tenancy, if it has to end on the expiration of 4 years tenancy, then it's not possible to give the 112 days notice?
Is this correct, or can you give 112 days notice which is effectively allowing for an additional month for the tenants in situ or would that negate the termination under Part IV?
I have no objection to 84 or 112 days or any particular number of days, but I do need to prevent a new Part IV tenancy from starting
Would it be so difficult for them to make it straightforward????