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Dublin 15 is going to get a lot more congested.
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Former Former wrote: »Jesus that looks awful.
And studio apartments, in Dublin 15. This won't end well.
The drawing look alright. How it will look in reality...?
Why won't it end well?0 -
handlemaster wrote: »Interesting to see the pricing on these
They’ll be bought up in a job lot by one of the multi national property blood suckers and rented out.0 -
Former Former wrote: »Jesus that looks awful.
And studio apartments, in Dublin 15. This won't end well.
Looks like just another apartment block. What difference does 10 studio apartments out of a 211 make?
Not a huge fan of building near the canal myself, and I've said it before that they are building too many new homes compared to everything else. Just because the Blanch Shopping Centre is nearby doesn't mean only new housing should be built.0 -
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If this recession does happen these won't get built.
Its obvious though the planners intend covering every scrap of land in Dublin 15 in housing.0 -
Looks like just another apartment block. What difference does 10 studio apartments out of a 211 make?
Not a huge fan of building near the canal myself, and I've said it before that they are building too many new homes compared to everything else. Just because the Blanch Shopping Centre is nearby doesn't mean only new housing should be built.
It's ten studios and 68 one-bed apartments. The two beds are tiny. They've taken planning guidelines which were meant for city living and applied them to one of the less desirable and more remote suburbs.
This won't be a place that people want to live long-term and that brings all sorts of issues.0 -
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The site is right up against a main arterial train line. Yes, the train line infrastructure needs to be upgraded (stick planning permission beside any public transport and locals will probably first mention the need for better of same); but the simple fact of the matter is that this is the type of area that can sustain high-density development. You can walk from your apartment to a train station, a QBC / bus hub in the Blanch center and plenty of shops and amenities.
To be honest friends, this is probably an example of local preference vs national need in line with decent planning principles (high density beside public transport within accessible reach of high-employment with significant local infrastructure such as schools in situ or in planning).0 -
What?
What I mean is, people might want to live in an apartment in Malahide or Dalkey, people might want to live in an apartment in the city centre or Ranelagh.
A small apartment in Coolmine is a very different proposition. That's the reality.
Build the apartments, but make some effort to make them attractive to people other than short-term tenants. High turnover and low owner-occupier rates are the worst thing that can happen in any development.0 -
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Preplanning meetings are held by Council Officials and Private Developers in advance of Planning Applications. Sure what could go wrong?Former Former wrote: »What I mean is, people might want to live in an apartment in Malahide or Dalkey, people might want to live in an apartment in the city centre or Ranelagh.
A small apartment in Coolmine is a very different proposition. That's the reality.
Build the apartments, but make some effort to make them attractive to people other than short-term tenants. High turnover and low owner-occupier rates are the worst thing that can happen in any development.0 -
Former Former wrote: »What I mean is, people might want to live in an apartment in Malahide or Dalkey, people might want to live in an apartment in the city centre or Ranelagh.
A small apartment in Coolmine is a very different proposition. That's the reality.
Build the apartments, but make some effort to make them attractive to people other than short-term tenants. High turnover and low owner-occupier rates are the worst thing that can happen in any development.
Someone pointed out to that apartments like these are aimed at single people, who want to live in the area, especially those working in the nearby industrial estates and office parks. In theory its quick access to the rail link. Though thats a joke. Often they are aimed at people immigrating here for the tech jobs. They don't see these as small, or that the area is too congested compared to some high tech mega city somewhere else. I asked a colleague why he moved to Ireland then down the country. He simply answered "space".0 -
Time and time they demonstrate they are ignorant of the area, local resources, and compound one stupid planning decision over another.
I'm sure a lot of families out cycling at the moment, are starting to realize even thought the roads are quiet. The cycling paths are just a unconnected mess, no plan no reason. A complete shambles, high kerbs all over, paths ending at random. Impossible to get to lots of places without getting on the road with small kids.0 -
Former Former wrote: »It's ten studios and 68 one-bed apartments. The two beds are tiny. They've taken planning guidelines which were meant for city living and applied them to one of the less desirable and more remote suburbs.
This won't be a place that people want to live long-term and that brings all sorts of issues.
I see your point, but many people who want something like a big two-bed or more won't be looking at apartments. Besides, I think there are enough of the "luxury estate with stylish 3 to 4 bed houses" developments around - they all look the same to me. Many people can't afford to live in the city centre or Malahide, but it doesn't need to mean these new apartments are going to be a ghetto for foreigners.0 -
I think his point was who wants shoe box living in the suburbs. Not sure why you leaped straight to ghetto.
Lots of sites looking for planning permission near by, all apartments. Lots and lots of Apartments.0 -
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The site is very strategically placed, as I’m led to believe there are lands set aside for a Luas station if Metro West ever gets the go ahead. Along with an additional Suburban Rail Station beneath Canon Troy Bridge on the Maynooth/Connolly line.0
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The site is very strategically placed, as I’m led to believe there are lands set aside for a Luas station if Metro West ever gets the go ahead. Along with an additional Suburban Rail Station beneath Canon Troy Bridge on the Maynooth/Connolly line.
Wow all that public transport will absolutely never happen...sadly.0 -
Apart from the dozen studio apartments that will be small and possibly suit a single person on a budget that can't afford anything else, most modern apartments are spacious and dual aspect with sufficient storage space. Not everyone in Ireland nor everyone who wants to live in D15 wants a 3 bed semi with front or back garden or not every household consists of husband, wife and 2.1 children. Increasingly, more households are made up of just one or two persons and a 2 bed apartment may be exactly all they need. This development will address that demand.
In the 15 years I've lived in D15, I've spent more time in it in the last 2 months since the lockdown and I've gotten to know more estates and neighbourhoods, through daily walks and runs, that I didn't know exist and am highly impressed by the quality of so many housing schemes and the mature, leafy surrounds they're located in (Little Pace, Castaheany, Diswellstown, Carpenterstown, Clonsilla etc) combined with so many parks,walking trails, canal etc. I only discovered Porterstown Park last week...a gorgeous amenity as is Beechwood Park just beyond Clonsilla station. How any one can label these areas undesirable or places people don't want to live in long term (either in houses or apartments)is beyond me.0 -
It used to be a lot greener.
But certainly there are a lot of parks and facilities.0 -
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Spot on ongarboy. To be honest I think most objections to planning - anywhere in the country - are NIMBYism when you boil it right down. It's amazing the amount of areas I've seen that have suddenly become passionately wedded to the welfare of local bats or the amenity of barely used pitches when planning is proposed. Get under the skin of it and it's people not wanting the hassle of construction and the unknown (to them) effect of more people about.
D15 is a suburb backing on to significant greenfield development areas with substantial transport connections and already built amenities. I'm afraid if you want a quiet life without growth in this housing-strapped country of ours, it's the wrong place to live. I say this as someone who remembers the Blanch center as an entirely green field with sheep on it. If I wanted to go back to that, I'd move to Mayo.0 -
D15 is a suburb backing on to significant greenfield development areas with substantial transport connections and already built amenities.
That's not true at all. Certain part of Dublin 15 have good transport connections, ease of use is a different story altogether.
But the problem with the greenfield sites is that they don't have reasonable transport connections, nor are the amenities ready and waiting to be used.
It's a fallacy to say otherwise outside of the likes of the few sites alongside the rail stations. The argument that we need more houses in order to throw housing up anywhere is going to put us in the crapper all over again like the awful, non existent even, planning we had in the 80s leading to the socioeconomic problems all over again.
It's not like we don't have the mistakes of the past to steer us straight. People, many in the relevant areas of decision making, are conveniently forgetting this for the sake of political points. The shortcut skipping local county councils and straight to Bord Pleanna is going to **** many over.0 -
That's not true at all. Certain part of Dublin 15 have good transport connections, ease of use is a different story altogether.
But the problem with the greenfield sites is that they don't have reasonable transport connections, nor are the amenities ready and waiting to be used.
It's a fallacy to say otherwise outside of the likes of the few sites alongside the rail stations.
To be honest I think that's a perception not borne out in reality.
I live in Hollywoodrath, an area of major development (with 2 other new developments going in around me as well as continued building of this large estate). It's probably a good example of a development really far out. I can get from Blackrock, never mind the city center, to my house in 50 minutes door to door on public transport. It's quicker than driving. (40E->Broombridge, train to Blackrock.) The area is surrounded by major new roads to connect to the N2 and N3. There's 3 modern schools I can see from my house and more in walking distance and planning for even more.
Move closer in and much development has occurred Ongar/Hansfield. Lots of brand new major roads with quality bus and cycling infrastructure put in day one and the train lines, including new stations. And plenty of schools etc. The quality of the developments is just night and day versus when they were throwing up developments off the Clonsilla Road in the 1990s for example.
Is the area busier than it was in the halcyon days of my youth? Yeah, sure. But to be honest it's pretty obvious when you are wedged in between major road networks and have a major CC running train line in your area, and you have loads of green fields, you're gonna get developed.
There's a lot more coming. It's a fact of life. I think the infrastructure is either there or planned to be developed, but it isn't going to magically make the place feel emptier, just help everything to run. If you want things to stay the same, D15 is not the place to be. Hasn't been for 30 years.0 -
I know Hollywoodrath, and it fits in to what I said. It has relatively poor transport contrary to the claims of substantial transport connections, I can get from Hollywoodwrath to the city centre quicker on a bike than public transport. The 40D during rush hour can be a nightmare, and the 40E, while providing a good service, is let down by the traffic congestion once it gets to Finglas.
If you got the 8:05 40E or whatever time it's around then, you can be pulling into Broombridge after 8:30 and hitting the city near 9. You still have to get to Blackrock then. During normal working hours and days, you can't get from Hollywoodwrath to Blackrock in 50 minutes.
Without that traffic, outside of your regular rush hour, it is a good service.
And some of the schools, mostly the 1 secondary, at the moment can't cater for the wider existing areas of Tyrrelstown and Hollystown, without the addition of the new housing.
Can you imagine then what will happen when they eventually build on the Hollywoodrath side of the golf course adding more demand into the community? The first plan was already knocked back, and that was I imagine the developers chancing their arm to see how much they can get in, without a care or thought into the immediate environs.
Don't get me wrong, I like that area and there are facilities around it, but it can't continue that way without first putting in more facilities, most notably secondary education.0 -
Agree with the above,
We are living in Hansfield Wood D15 - purchased because we were sold on the great transport links - however, have learned first hand this is not the case - outside of the fact the developer wont open the road linking our estate to the station in what should be a 5 minute stroll this currently adds an additional 20-30-minute walk (depending on where in our estate you are) to the station, this is before we board the train and we are considered as probably one of the closest developments in D15 to the train station.
The timetable is ridiculous and poor serviced with short packed trains only running directly every 30 minutes from 6:59am until roughly 11:30am - some not every 30 minutes and up to an hour in between service (couldn't find the exact timetable as CIE has taken it down) then there are no direct trains with the next direct train starting back at 4pm from the Docklands to Hansfield and they then stop at 7pm with no direct services at all.
- The other alternatives for people in this area is to get a shuttle train to Clonsilla station wait there and then potentially change again at Connolly if you need to go further south this takes about an hour at best not including commute to and from the stations at either end. The minimum run times from Hansfield to Docklands train station are 30 minutes on a good day and the Docklands station is in a crap location in town not really near anything.
For bus options in our area they include the fantastically marketed 39X which was marketed at 35 minutes into town but never takes less than 1 hour (and only operates a limited schedule in the morning and a small window at peak times) to get from town back to the Ongar road.
If you are really feeling like killing some time you can also take the very regular 39, this can take up to 2 hours at peak times given the massive amount of stops and the heavy traffic along the Navan road and up through Stoneybatter.
At best my commute is about 1hr 20 - 30 minutes each way daily between walking and trains to get to near work close to the Canal which is not a large distance by any measure.
I think saying well serviced should be defined, I would say this part of D15 has a decent selection of service, Yes there are multiple options to take a train (albeit a crap schedule) or the bus (which can take anything from 50 minutes to 2 hours depending on the day or traffic). However I think cramming a load more housing into D15 is only going to make this situation worse in the short term - medium term.
Up where we are there are over 1100 units approved with 700 under construction some up to 7 and 8 floors high (these heights are above Fingals own SDZ plan), we still have no public amenities and in our development we are over looking a fenced up park which was meant to have been completed when we moved in 2 years ago - the SDZ stated it must be completed prior to 500 residents moving into the SDZ area (there are at least 1100 in our development not including Barnwell, Beachwood and other developments in the SDZ with more and more coming on stream with 3 sites under construction currently despite the developers and council continuing to press on with more developments in contrary to their ow local SDZ being breached and public transport (pre covid) operating way above capacity.
I am 100% behind putting denser builds on good infrastructure links but allowing multiple developments being built beside train lines or on bus routes just because they exist does not constitute proper planning, these corridors are at breaking point already and developers are utilizing them as a reason to cram more people into the area and I agree there can be alot of NIMBYISM (if thats a word) but to be fair when they continue to increase densities out here in D15 when transport links are in no way excellent while allowing single and 2 story detached housing in Dublin city center there is clearly a bigger issue, why not enhance capacity and try shorten the commute times before putting more people here.
Our experience here leads me to think they will continue to get permission to build out here cramming as much people in as possible and leveraging off the fake news that there are excellent transport links in the are and this is sustainable development but that is definitely not the experience for some people already living here.
A prime example of this nonsense development I came across today is a recent application beside us for another 6 story apt block beside Hansfield train station with 80 odd 1 and 2 bed apts (alongside the current site where they are building 613 apts) the planning application itself states that there are train services running here every 15 minutes from Hansfield station - which is 100% not the case.
Anyway Fingal council and the developers up here wont be satisfied until every inch of zoned land is built upon and rates and levies get collected, as the title of the thread reads D15 will continue to get more and more congested and that is a fact0 -
Spot on ongarboy. To be honest I think most objections to planning - anywhere in the country - are NIMBYism when you boil it right down...
Well its not. Usually its pointing out obvious flaws in the planning. But its usually drowned out by the NIMBYism heckling.
Then when its finished and creates problems as predicted. We get there was no way of knowing, or sure it would have happened anyway.
So we have a catch 22. Complain about the planning and be heckled out of it, and overruled anyway. So don't complain and that gives them the excuse well no one complained.0 -
....Docklands station is in a crap location in town not really near anything....
Well I agree with most of what you posted except this. That the train is jammed and overcrowded suggest people find this station is useful. Its noticeable mostly full of suits. Lots of Finance and IT people. Actually since it got busier, its now a carriage shorter than it used to be. Which is a nice touch.
The train is usually about 15 mins quicker (at least), than getting into Connolly and its a 10 mins walk to Connolly. Its also a 5 min walk out of Connolly depending where you are going. So all things considered it usually quicker to get the docklands train and walk back to Connolly.
You're also swapping 15mins extra on a train, standing in a sauna, for 10 mins walking. I know which I'd choose. Theres also Luas, and Dublin Bike links beside it. So its catchment is greatly expanded.
That said I got fed up with how packed it the trains. I had gone back to the car for the past year or so. It actually quicker door to door for me.0 -
Jammyd, I'm sure you know this anyway but if I was living in Hansfield Wood, I'd just walk the 15 minutes to Clonsilla station (you can cut through Portersgate in dry weather) and you get all peak services to either Docklands or Connolly/Tara/Pearse there with switching trains. It would be madness trying to circle back to Hansfield station from the Allendale roundabout entrance of Hansfield.
Also, as Beauf said, it's not true that Docklands is in a bad location unless of course it's not near where you want to go. 1000s of workers use it daily (in the non COVID world) for working in IFSC, entire north and south Docklands area and further. Its just not close to the traditional city centre but that's where the Maynooth line or Luas is available.
I agree this artery of D15 is better served with transport options than Tyrellstown, Hollywoodrath or Mulhuddart for example0 -
Apart from the dozen studio apartments that will be small and possibly suit a single person on a budget that can't afford anything else, most modern apartments are spacious and dual aspect with sufficient storage space. Not everyone in Ireland nor everyone who wants to live in D15 wants a 3 bed semi with front or back garden or not every household consists of husband, wife and 2.1 children. Increasingly, more households are made up of just one or two persons and a 2 bed apartment may be exactly all they need. This development will address that demand.
In the 15 years I've lived in D15, I've spent more time in it in the last 2 months since the lockdown and I've gotten to know more estates and neighbourhoods, through daily walks and runs, that I didn't know exist and am highly impressed by the quality of so many housing schemes and the mature, leafy surrounds they're located in (Little Pace, Castaheany, Diswellstown, Carpenterstown, Clonsilla etc) combined with so many parks,walking trails, canal etc. I only discovered Porterstown Park last week...a gorgeous amenity as is Beechwood Park just beyond Clonsilla station. How any one can label these areas undesirable or places people don't want to live in long term (either in houses or apartments)is beyond me.
It's pure snobbery. Doesn't bother me though means I could buy a house in a nice estate beside the train station for less then I was paying rent. If people want to make out Dublin 15 is undesirable that's just fine.0 -
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Jammyd, I'm sure you know this anyway but if I was living in Hansfield Wood, I'd just walk the 15 minutes to Clonsilla station (you can cut through Portersgate in dry weather) and you get all peak services to either Docklands or Connolly/Tara/Pearse there with switching trains. It would be madness trying to circle back to Hansfield station from the Allendale roundabout entrance of Hansfield.
Also, as Beauf said, it's not true that Docklands is in a bad location unless of course it's not near where you want to go. 1000s of workers use it daily (in the non COVID world) for working in IFSC, entire north and south Docklands area and further. Its just not close to the traditional city centre but that's where the Maynooth line or Luas is available.
I agree this artery of D15 is better served with transport options than Tyrellstown, Hollywoodrath or Mulhuddart for example
I use Clonsilla quite a bit it’s a decent 20 minute walk from me even with the short cut - no issue with walking anyway,
In terms of the location piece I would disagree that docklands station is in a good location and that’s evident given the numerous articles and current plans to relocate the station further south into Spencer place / dock whatever it’s called (plenty of discussions about this in the infrastructure thread for anyone interested in it if I recall), just because a train line is packed doesn’t constitute the destination is convenient, the wacky timetable and cramped 2nd grade small trains are testament to the **** service IE have provided, I am one of the so called suits as mentioned in one of the posts and unless you work on the quays which I’m sure some do the station is not well connected (I’ve a solid 25-30 minutes walk up towards the canal end of Leeson street which is of course my own choice and issue) on the post about docklands being faster to get to and you can then walk to Connolly this makes zero sense from a good transport / connectivity perspective . Good connectivity means you can connect and interchange on the one form of transport not walk to a train station then exit walk another 10 minutes to another train stay ok and get on another train not to mention paying double the fare for doing this which also makes no sense.
Hansfield would need to have direct trains into Connolly if it is ever to be a serious contender as a reliable mass public transportation to justify the ridiculous amount of density they are packing around it. The non existent QBC from town back to Ongar / Hansfield / Clonsila is proof of that. Sometimes you get into town with ease but try getting home in normal work hours can be a nightmare.
On the planning side the council should actually listen to their experts and stick to the actual plans they have in place not be bullied by politics and developers because we all know there is a massive need for more housing, shoving a large group of people into a small area without the necessary public infrastructure and amenities s is a no brainier stupid idea and we all know a handful of examples in Dublin alone were better planning was ignored and traffic is a mess.
Also as mentioned before most of these developments are being bought straight off the plans by REITs and are essentially being filled with social housing tenants through a roundabout way rather than offering the mix of demos that every area needs, D15 has it’s fair share of this already in our estate alone we have c45% social housing because of this, transparency should be key and these developments are not all about improving the areas and society it’s profit for the developers, plenty of reports rightly point out the only profitable locations to build large apt blocks for sale are D4 and the likes of Blackrock which means any large scale apartment developments like this happening around D15 will be Rentals only and given the crazy rents being looked for by the cuckoo funds end up being majority HAP inhabited (nothing wrong with that just a consequence of the dysfunctional housing market and the outsourcing of social housing to the private sector).
Traffic, social inclusion provision of services and opportunities for people that move to D15 to not spend up to 4 hrs commuting in and out of work are big issues. sticking a load more housing into the area is not going to improve any of these IMO and people have the right to object if they feel like a development is not socially beneficial (I have never myself objected to any housing but I do feel it’s people’s right to do so if they are negatively going to be impacted in some way and their is clear evidence there is planning inadequacies)0
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