Friend pulled over and handcuffed while car searched

wigsa100

Hi everyone,

Heard a story about a friend of mine today that happened over the weekend that really annoyed me. He was pulled over by the Gardai without having broken any laws of the road. Granted, the car he drives is a bit 'scummy' so to speak, with tinted windows, but neither he nor his car have been involved in illegality.
He is a nice guy that works in town and has never been in trouble.

The guard approached the driver's side and told him to get out of the car. When he asked why he replied that they were searching the car under the Misuse of Drugs Act. When he got out, they ordered him to remove his shoes and then the guard in question said 'we better handcuff you in case you run away'. So he was left standing there on a Saturday afternoon on quite a busy road, with no shoes on and in handcuffs. A number of people he knew drove past during that time and contacted him later, assuming he had been arrested.

Of course, nothing was found in the car as there was no cause to search the car in the first place, and he was released. They had attempted to get him to remove his socks as well but he refused to do so.

What I would like to know is:

1. Were they entitled to search the car out of the blue?
2. Were they entitled to handcuff him?
3. If the answer to either of the above is no, how should he proceed?

I find it completely outrageous that while the name of the entire force is being dragged through the muck day after day due to the farcical carry on of the most senior people in the organisation, the members who are dealing with the public would have the audacity to act in such an arrogant, abusive way.

I heard a discussion on the radio recently about how Gardai were now getting abuse when dealing with members of the public due to the actions of the senior members of the force. If those on the front line are behaving in this way, they only have themselves to blame.

happywithlife

Are tinted windows not illegal?
He drives a scummy looking car with tinted by your own admission.
I can only answer for myself but as a law abiding citizen if I were asked to get out the car in those circumstances I'd just do it - not asking the garda why I had to - which would easily be perceived as being smart/lippy and perhaps even confrontational depending on the tone - which is the way the garda interpreted it is assumed given he cuffed him.
Maybe if you friend had had a bit more manners about him he wouldn't have been cuffed on the side of the road for all to see

wigsa100

happywithlife wrote: »

Are tinted windows not illegal?
He drives a scummy looking car with tinted by your own admission.
I can only answer for myself but as a law abiding citizen if I were asked to get out the car in those circumstances I'd just do it - not asking the garda why I had to - which would easily be perceived as being smart/lippy and perhaps even confrontational depending on the tone - which is the way the garda interpreted it is assumed given he cuffed him.
Maybe if you friend had had a bit more manners about him he wouldn't have been cuffed on the side of the road for all to see

Are you serious? If you were pulled over while obeying the rules of the road and a guard came over and ordered you out of the car, with no context, you would simply do it without asking?

Wesser

I'd say there are 2 sides to this story .

All you have is a second hand one .

wigsa100

Wesser wrote: »

I'd say there are 2 sides to this story .

All you have is a second hand one .

That is correct. Yet he was not arrested or charged with anything. He didn't do anything to break the law. That is indisputable.

death1234567

wigsa100 wrote: »

Are you serious? If you were pulled over while obeying the rules of the road and a guard came over and ordered you out of the car, with no context, you would simply do it without asking?

Yes. The same way most people in any country would if a member of the police force asks them to get out of their car.

Of course you could get up on your high horse and start questioning a police officer who is only doing their job, but you'd have to be quite stupid, or maybe guilty of a crime to do that.

LionelNashe

If everything was exactly as you said, OP, I would have also asked why and I'd be making a complaint to the station or to GSOC. From the way you've phrased your post "Heard a story about a friend..." it seems like you heard it second hand, which means we're hearing about it 3rd hand (or even 4th hand) so you know which way this thread is going to go. People who have never had a problem with the guards will assume that your friend was pulled over for a good reason and that the true version of events is different from what you posted. 500 posts later it will have morphed into an argument about who was the better man, DeValera or Michael Collins.

happywithlife

wigsa100 wrote: »

Are you serious? If you were pulled over while obeying the rules of the road and a guard came over and ordered you out of the car, with no context, you would simply do it without asking?

Yes I think I would. The same way I was prepared to do a random breathalyser test when random testing first came in - even though i knew it was pointless as did the guard as I was very obviously pregnant and so wouldn't have been drinking. I was raised to respect authority figures and I would certainly follow a garda's request without getting lippy

wigsa100

death1234567 wrote: »

Yes. The same way most people in any country would if a member of the police force asks them to get out of their car.

Of course you could get up on your high horse and start questioning a police officer who is only doing their job, but you'd have to be quite stupid, or maybe guilty of a crime to do that.

That's precisely the public attitude that has resulted in the Gardai in this country being in the current, undeniable mess that they find themselves in. A total lack of accountability for actions. If someone stops me from going about my business for no reason and tells me to get out of my car without offering an explanation, they had better expect to at least be asked why.

boardsuser1

I was searched on an almost daily basis for many months when I was younger.

In order to conduct the search they used the following act, this despite me never then or since having a history under that title.http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1977/act/12/section/21/enacted/en/html

wigsa100

LionelNashe wrote: »

If everything was exactly as you said, OP, I would have also asked why and I'd be making a complaint to the station or to GSOC. From the way you've phrased your post "Heard a story about a friend..." it seems like you heard it second hand, which means we're hearing about it 3rd hand (or even 4th hand) so you know which way this thread is going to go. People who have never had a problem with the guards will assume that your friend was pulled over for a good reason and that the true version of events is different from what you posted. 500 posts later it will have morphed into an argument about who was the better man, DeValera or Michael Collins.

Haha, that is very true. I did hear the story second hand, I'm not denying that. However I am curious to know about the legality of doing something like this in general, and whether it's a breach of the law to do so. I honestly don't know, hence why I asked.

Wesser

Yes I would.
Gardai are to be obeyed.

If you don't give them attitude they treat you with respect .

coylemj

wigsa100 wrote: »

That is correct. Yet he was not arrested ......

If he was handcuffed on the side of the street then his liberty was restrained which in any man's language constitutes an arrest.

wigsa100

happywithlife wrote: »

Yes I think I would. The same way I was prepared to do a random breathalyser test when random testing first came in - even though i knew it was pointless as did the guard as I was very obviously pregnant and so wouldn't have been drinking. I was raised to respect authority figures and I would certainly follow a garda's request without getting lippy

Are you aware of how many trials have collapsed in this country due to Gardai not following the letter of the law? It's not at their discretion whether they have to obey a law or not. For example, the very high profile case of Judge Brian Curtin in Kerry. His trial collapsed because the Gardai used in invalid warrant to search his home and find masses of child porn. When they mess things up or don't bother to operate within the law, the general public suffer.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ahern-curtin-was-listed-as-suspected-paedophile-169664.html

tayto lover

Is this yet another "hearsay" thread?

myshirt

This happened me regularly growing up in Limerick also, including one time where I politely (and I really mean politely) asked for my keys back and the gard f#cked them as far as he could into the field.

Not once did I have any drugs.

I get what you are saying op, but you and your friend are better off to say yes gard, ok gard, no gard, and move on. It's not worth it, however right you are.

LionelNashe

wigsa100 wrote: »

Haha, that is very true. I did hear the story second hand, I'm not denying that. However I am curious to know about the legality of doing something like this in general, and whether it's a breach of the law to do so. I honestly don't know, hence why I asked.

I'm curious as well. You always hear about 'stop and search' being a thing in the UK and US, but I don't hear much about it here.

If I thought that I was being searched for some bulls**t reason, like my clothes, my car, or something, I'd complain afterwards. A single complaint won't make any difference to the guard, but if he's acting the maggot, and he keeps getting forced to explain himself to his superiors, he'll have to cop on.

Somebody posted a link to Section 21 of the Misuse of Drugs act. I think it's section 23:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1977/act/12/section/23/enacted/en/html#zza12y1977s23
23.—(1) A member of the Garda Sh who with reasonable cause suspects that a person is in possession in contravention of this Act of a controlled drug, may without warrant—
(a) search the person and, if he considers it necessary for that purpose, detain the person for such time as is reasonably necessary for making the search,
(b) search any vehicle, vessel or aircraft in which he suspects that such drug may be found and for the purpose of carrying out the search may, if he thinks fit, require the person who for the time being is in control of such vehicle, vessel or aircraft to bring it to a stop and when stopped to refrain from moving it, or in case such vehicle, vessel or aircraft is already stationary, to refrain from moving it, or
(c) seize and detain anything found in the course of a search under this section which with such cause appears to him to be something which might be required as evidence in proceedings for an offence under this Act.
(2) Nothing in this section shall operate to prejudice any power to search, or to seize or detain property which may be exercised by a member of the Garda Sh apart from this section.

tayto lover

From reading the above powers it might be that someone reported your friend to the garda OP.
Maybe he has an enemy?
Otherwise why would they pick him out for a search?

Guy:Incognito

happywithlife wrote: »

even though i knew it was pointless as did the guard as I was very obviously pregnant and so wouldn't have been drinking.

Hardly. Presumably since you were pregnant you've visited a maternity hospital in your time. I've yet to visit one without seeing pregnant women outside smoking, yet any right thinking person I know wouldn't dream of doing that. I've also seen the odd visibly pregnant woman drinking. Not a stretch to think one of them might not see driving with a few drinks as being an issue.

happywithlife

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Hardly. Presumably since you were pregnant you've visited a maternity hospital in your time. I've yet to visit one without seeing pregnant women outside smoking, yet any right thinking person I know wouldn't dream of doing that. I've also seen the odd visibly pregnant woman drinking. Not a stretch to think one of them might not see driving with a few drinks as being an issue.

You are right in that I suppose

368100

happywithlife wrote: »

Yes I think I would. The same way I was prepared to do a random breathalyser test when random testing first came in - even though i knew it was pointless as did the guard as I was very obviously pregnant and so wouldn't have been drinking. I was raised to respect authority figures and I would certainly follow a garda's request without getting lippy

There's a difference between getting lippy and legitimately questioning why the car was searched..he was put in handcuffs

Questions can be asked while still showing respect

AnneFrank

LionelNashe wrote: »

If everything was exactly as you said, OP, I would have also asked why and I'd be making a complaint to the station or to GSOC. From the way you've phrased your post "Heard a story about a friend..." it seems like you heard it second hand, which means we're hearing about it 3rd hand (or even 4th hand) so you know which way this thread is going to go. People who have never had a problem with the guards will assume that your friend was pulled over for a good reason and that the true version of events is different from what you posted. 500 posts later it will have morphed into an argument about who was the better man, DeValera or Michael Collins.

Michael Collins hands down

Manach

Wesser wrote: »

Yes I would.
Gardai are to be obeyed.

If you don't give them attitude they treat you with respect .

While the Guards do a tough job and should be granted a high level of respect, the powers that they operate under are prescribed under law so there are limits to what they can and cannot do or expect others to do.

AnneFrank

myshirt wrote: »

This happened me regularly growing up in Limerick also, including one time where I politely (and I really mean politely) asked for my keys back and the gard f#cked them as far as he could into the field.

Not once did I have any drugs.

I get what you are saying op, but you and your friend are better off to say yes gard, ok gard, no gard, and move on. It's not worth it, however right you are.

Totally agree, feed their ego, and get out of there

lifeandtimes

tayto lover wrote: »

From reading the above powers it might be that someone reported your friend to the garda OP.
Maybe he has an enemy?
Otherwise why would they pick him out for a search?

A single phone call about someone wouldn't warrant the police to stop one unknown citizen and put them in cuffs.

I wonder if ops friend can make a complaint to the ombudsmen and maybe have an apology issued if the police did this under the miss use of drugs act without any evidence to provide reasonable suspicion

nuac

Mod[/B]
This seems to be a Garda bashing thread rather than legal discussion.
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