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The trial of Molly Martens

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    #512
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    MarcusP12 wrote: »
    Reading the indos latest report it seems the defence were putting big emphasis on his fbi background in terms of him protecting and serving his country (the jury will no doubt lap that $hit up like true patriots) and all he wanted to do was protect his daughter....seems they were playing the "how could a man who served his country for 40 years possibly do what he's accused of?"......character may not come into it in the eyes of the law but surely it plants a seed in a jurors head that can bias his view of the evidence and steer his argument for his own particular verdict...the only difference is he can't admit to using character in his argument....lay mans take on it.....

    That is actually a sickening defence move. Ugh.


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    #513
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    anna080 wrote: »
    That is actually a sickening defence move. Ugh.

    It must be a really horrible job trying to defend people no matter what you privately think of them.
    I couldn't do it myself I don't think.


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    #514
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SimpleDimples wrote: »
    I don't disagree with you but I don't want them to serve life cause they are horrible people, I want them to be found guilty because I believe the evidence proves their guilt.

    In your professional opinion, do you think they will be found guilty?

    I have actually only followed the trial through this thread, which is like 3rd or 4th hand information. From what is said here, I'd be surprised if the father gets off...and surprised if the daughter is convicted. But take that with a huge grain of salt. I'm always pretty certain of one thing...despite the speculation, the innuendo, if a jury makes a decision having heard all the evidence, I'm comfortable with that. It's very rare a jury decision is overturned on appeal, unless the Judge misdirected or new evidence comes to light, it's the best way for determining guilt or innocence on the basis of the facts.


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    #515
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The defence closing statement is sickening but predictable-comparing and contrasting the father-in-law/ Victim - yes, VICTIM!!

    - absolutely sickening..I was going to quote it but I can't get myself to do it.

    here's the link- but absolutely predictable, from day 1 they were taking this line around alcohol - I don't hold out much hope if i'm honest, for a truly just verdict. I know lots of people on boards.ie can see through it, but I don't hold out much hope that the jury will look past it.


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/molly-martens-murder-trial-judge-sends-out-jury-to-consider-verdict-36011913.html


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    #516
    Auldloon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭Auldloon


    What's your profession Conor74?


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    #517
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    If I was a juror I'd be sickened at the defence closing statements. How insulting to people's intelligence.


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    #518
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    anna080 wrote: »
    If I was a juror I'd be sickened at the defence closing statements. How insulting to people's intelligence.

    Those defence lawyers aren't stupid though- they know their audience. I don't know what sicken's me more- the fact that they said it, or the effect it might actually have on the jury.


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    #519
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Auldloon wrote: »
    What's your profession Conor74?

    Solicitor. But have only been involved in a couple of murder trials, and certainly can't pretend to be following this trial. So while the completely inane "oh JESUS aren't they awful" stuff irritates me, can't really pretend to be that invested in the verdict.


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    #520
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ben Coley wrote:
    Jury requests to see photos and written statement from Molly Corbett
    https://twitter.com/LexDispatchBC/status/895019931238105089?s=09


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    #521
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Solicitor. But have only been involved in a couple of murder trials, and certainly can't pretend to be following this trial. So while the completely inane "oh JESUS aren't they awful" stuff irritates me, can't really pretend to be that invested in the verdict.

    What do you mean "completely inane "oh JESUS aren't they awful" stuff. ?


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    #522
    clairewithani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭clairewithani


    [Deleted User] wrote: »


    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/molly-martens-murder-trial-judge-sends-out-jury-to-consider-verdict-36011913.html

    This reads like it he will get off. Good old FBI guy who served his nation, whose primary goal is to protect othets against drunken Irish guy who doesn't function without alcohol/meds. Be very worried he would get off.


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    #523
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Solicitor. But have only been involved in a couple of murder trials, and certainly can't pretend to be following this trial. So while the completely inane "oh JESUS aren't they awful" stuff irritates me, can't really pretend to be that invested in the verdict.

    Do you practice criminal law?
    My brother is a barrister I loved reading his criminal law books when he was studying!


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    #524
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    clairewithani wrote: »
    This reads like it he will get off. Good old FBI guy who served his nation, whose primary goal is to protect othets against drunken Irish guy who doesn't function without alcohol/meds. Be very worried he would get off.

    I'm one for calling it as I see it. And if the defence state that, then they know something we don't i.e. the mentality of the jury and how they think- and that does frighten me.


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    #525
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What do you mean "completely inane "oh JESUS aren't they awful" stuff. ?

    I mean a trial in front of a jury is the best way to determine guilt or innocence, not hunches, not speculation, not character assassination etc. There are very valid reasons about what can and can't be introduced, why a defence may not put their client on the stand etc. We've had people on this thread saying things like "oh he was so nice, they shouldn't be able to say nasty things about him". Of course they should, it's the essence of the adversarial system of law.


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    #526
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ben Coley wrote:
    No verdict today. Jury will resume deliberation tomorrow

    https://twitter.com/LexDispatchBC/status/895027911010508800?s=09


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    #527
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    Do you practice criminal law?
    My brother is a barrister I loved reading his criminal law books when he was studying!

    Yeah...but can't pretend murder trials are a huge part of the practice. Was involved in 2 over 20 years. Have turned down a couple of others on the basis of "small town, would rather be able to look people in the eye"...


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    #528
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I mean a trial in front of a jury is the best way to determine guilt or innocence, not hunches, not speculation, not character assassination etc. There are very valid reasons about what can and can't be introduced, why a defence may not put their client on the stand etc. We've had people on this thread saying things like "oh he was so nice, they shouldn't be able to say nasty things about him". Of course they should, it's the essence of the adversarial system of law.

    I do get that and yes I do subscribe to that too.

    If I'm honest I don't totally have faith in the particular jury simply based on what the defence have said - they're not stupid lawyers - in fact they're probably very experienced lawyers. So if they've chosen to say those things, it's for a reason.

    I can see past the smoke and mirrors going on here- I'm hopeful but not convinced that the jury can too.

    Hope that explains where I'm coming from.


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    #529
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,319 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Having studied Group Theory, I wouldn't have the blind faith in juries. The complex interactions among a group of 12, is when one does the analysis is mindboggling. Along with this is the dynamics of different personalities. Even if you ever watched those programmes where a group of people are put through some stressors, it's quite similar to a jury room.

    I'd be as happy with three judges.


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    #530
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Water John wrote: »
    I'd be as happy with three judges.

    We've had Diplock Courts on this island. No thanks...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplock_courts


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    #531
    Fakediamond
    Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭Fakediamond


    I often feel that there is no justice, only law. Not a great system for victims a lot of the time, I hope this isn't going to be one of those times.


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    #532
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    What's the bit in the closing statement where "we know that three weeks before he had his hands around Molly's throat" is said? Did proof of such an incidence come up during the court case? If it hadn't that bit would surely have been objected to?


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    #533
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    iguana wrote: »
    What's the bit in the closing statement where "we know that three weeks before he had his hands around Molly's throat" is said? Did proof of such an incidence come up during the court case? If it hadn't that bit would surely have been objected to?

    Do you mean this bit?

    "We know he (Mr Corbett) has had depression issues, we know he had sleep issues - we know that three weeks before he had his hands around Molly's throat he had anger issues. Don't listen to me - listen to him (Mr Corbett). From his own mouth.


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    #534
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    The onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that what they say happened, happened. They have to convince 9 women and 3 men based on conjecture: the only people who know what happened were in the house that night and 2 have given their version, which differs somewhat from the living witness' account.
    If the prosecution enter into evidence, something that can be twisted or interpreted differently, it can play into the hands of the defense, by raising a question that can't be answered without being conclusive. Molly and dad are innocent until proven guilty. Prosecution have to prove some degree of guilt. Defense just have to undermine it. A decent system in theory but it seems mostly used to hinder justice rather than serve it.

    Dad will see prison, i think. Molly probably won't. Hard to prove she did anything...even perform cpr.


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    #535
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    Do you mean this bit?

    "We know he (Mr Corbett) has had depression issues, we know he had sleep issues - we know that three weeks before he had his hands around Molly's throat he had anger issues. Don't listen to me - listen to him (Mr Corbett). From his own mouth.

    Yes. How do 'we know' Corbett had his hands around her neck three weeks before? I'm presuming that if that hadn't already been proven during the court case to the satisfaction of the prosecution that they would have objected to that statement.* So was there witnesses or documentation to state this? I doubt they can claim any old sh as fact during their closing statement, so there must be some basis for this.

    *(Again, most of my knowledge on how murder trials work comes from court room dramas, so maybe that's just a tv thing.)


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    #536
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    iguana wrote: »
    Yes. How do 'we know' Corbett had his hands around her neck three weeks before? I'm presuming that if that hadn't already been proven during the court case to the satisfaction of the prosecution that they would have objected to that statement.* So was there witnesses or documentation to state this? I doubt they can claim any old sh as fact during their closing statement, so there must be some basis for this.

    *(Again, most of my knowledge on how murder trials work comes from court room dramas, so maybe that's just a tv thing.)

    You've misunderstood the meaning a little.
    He meant that three weeks previous to the claimed incident (the one that led to Jason's death) Jason had anger issues.


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    #537
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have turned down a couple of others on the basis of "small town, would rather be able to look people in the eye"...

    This must be a real issue in Ireland given that we have maybe 3 degrees of separation at most in this country, more often 2. Are there a lot of murder trials in which they have to go through a whole bunch of potential jurors just to find people who have no connection at all to any relevant party?


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    #538
    techno_radio
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 15 ✭techno_radio


    those poor children,

    nothing willl bring back their mama or papa,

    stop violence


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    #539
    Carry
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    I've been following this case here and in online newspapers, because it's a case of very conflicting details and, let's be honest, its's morbidly fascinating. I don't have the faintest idea about law and court proceedings in the USA. I have no experience or expertise in any criminal legal matter anywhere, full stop.

    But of course I have an emotional, but not a learned opinion.

    Whatever is known is published by journalists of different media and with different selected emphasis. Not that they are wrong, but they probably only write about what they consider important or whatever information they get. They don't have access to every evidence I think.

    But these piecemeal informations all packed together seem to paint a picture of a rich Irish man who married (foolishly?) a spoiled American daddy's princess (and was according to daddy not up to her standard), was clever enough to not give over his children for adoption to her and keep his assets to himself or in case of his death to his family.
    And then he decided to move back to Ireland, because a wife being pretty and spoiled is not good enough for a marriage, plus being rejected by her family, apparently.

    So daddy's little girl flips when she finds out, hits him with an object every self-respecting princess keeps on her nightstand (a brick) and hits him in rage.

    (I can relate to that. I've once had a boyfriend who enraged me that much that I wanted to kill him. Unfortunately I only had a few books on my nightstand, and a plastic bottle of water. Pointless, I guessed correctly. But in future I will consider a brick.)

    Anyway, daddy conveniently cancelled that night all his social appointments to drive equally conveniently with a baseball bat to his princess and the son in law he despised.

    The poor Irishman, hit with a brick by his wife in an argument, grabs her to defend himself, princess keeps hitting and calls for daddy, who comes running with the convenient bat, sees the dead or dying man and thinks quickly how to turn it around to protect his princess. Hits with bat and plots with his daughter, how to get out of it.

    The wife of daddy might have come up, too, but was told to go back to bed and shut up. Sleeping pills are very convenient in such cases. How come that the whole family took sleeping pills? Even the young ones apparently?

    Anyway, princess was told to rub her neck to prove that she was strangled, daddy talked from man to man to the police, being ex-FBI himself, very calm, because he is, well, one of the Men.
    Daddy took charge. Everyone was told to know nothing, especially the women, as they are such delicate flowers. And daddy is confident that self defence is always a good argument in gun-slinging USA. And him being a "hero" as an Ex-FBI-man and a trained lawyer didn't hurt.


    So you see, I'm intrigued and still fall against better judgement to all that speculation in this case.
    I'm not sure about the outcome, considering American values, obviously I hope for justice for the dead man and his family.

    I'm sure though that one day there will be a book about it, as it is one of those cases where nobody really knows the truth. It's perfect for a crime/court thriller.


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    #540
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    You've misunderstood the meaning a little.
    He meant that three weeks previous to the claimed incident (the one that led to Jason's death) Jason had anger issues.

    Well if that's not a sign that it's time for me to stop internetting and go to sleep nothing is.:o


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    #541
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,336 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    notjustsweet wrote:
    "We know he (Mr Corbett) has had depression issues, we know he had sleep issues - we know that three weeks before he had his hands around Molly's throat he had anger issues. Don't listen to me - listen to him (Mr Corbett). From his own mouth.

    What are you taking about? Where is this coming from?

    We can't listen to him because he was beaten to death.


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