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How will the grid manage with all these Cars?

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    #62
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    bk wrote: »
    You make that sound like it is a problem. The ESB actually see it as a solution to a major problem they currently have.

    The fact that night-time usage is 40% of the daytime peak is a major problem for them. You have to build enough capacity at great capital expense to handle the day time peak, but then it sits there unused half the day. Even worse you have to pay for it to sit there even if it isn't used.

    Evening out the extreme swings between peak and off-peak actually greatly help them more efficiently use the existing power plants and get better value out of them. It should go a long way towards helping reducing the cost of the grid.

    It will likely mean we will end up moving away from the idea of night rate meters and instead move more towards smart meters, which will adjust the tiems your car charges based on cost of the electricity. So instead of just at night, your car may charge when the sun is shining, wind is blowing or night time off peak.

    The battery in your car can act as a buffer for these more variable sources of power.

    BTW At a higher level I suspect we will see a lot more wind power here and use interconnectors off to French Nuclear and Norwegian Hydro as the backup to it's variability.

    If the ESB see it as a solution to the day/night usage difference, then why arent they promoting widespread implementation of PV?

    I dont understand why the large utilities and network providers simply arent facilitating the implementation of widespread PV usage with a FIT? It would make much more sense for them to facilitate installations and have some rent/usage sharing agreement with the property owner, with a benefit for both them and the end user? or where someone can afford to pay for it, they can simply give technical advice on recommended products (it seems a bit of hit and miss for an ordinary person not versed in who's products are good or recommended).
    Bord gais networks or its business seems to stand to lose more if increasing standards of housing insulation and reduced energy usage were the plan. Consumers could see a switch over to one utility if electrical power could provide most/all of their heat requirements through HRV. I cant understand why they dont invest in some kind of sell/rent/usage deal with home owners roof space for PV power generation.

    ESB networks already dictate the capacity of a doemstic installation and while Im sure there are technical considerations/limitations, they will have the expertise to determine what will suit the grid network of a specific area.
    I dont understand why they dont see this as a business prospect as it allows them to manage a useful development of PV within a specific area.

    Ive covered the theory of 3 phase in the past, bit rusty, Im may not be fully conversed on what the technical limitations are of connecting a PV supply to the grid, other than reactive power AND that it seems best if any load/supply is balanced across three phases, so maybe its better if its something if I am interested in, then its better technically if 2 of my other neighbours off the same electrical substation are also supplying PV generated electricity and then repeat that throughout the grid. Surely there are small scale reactive power devices that can be used at the domestic level, or they could just be integrated as a common part of an electrical substations distribution to manage any reactive power issues?

    Is there any other technical limitation? my understanding is potentially in rural areas the size of the local grid (physical size of the available wiring in the distribution network) may limit the ability of the grid to absorb power generation/limits again with reactive power? but aren't farms already using 3 phase supplies and presumably a lot of inductive loads? (and subsequently using reactive power compensation means)

    Doesnt this reduce/compensate the requirement power generators for meeting the daytime demand (to an extent) and over the longterm limits the requirement to invest in large scale generation plant increases or renewals. The historical solar irradiance is recorded so the amount of potential to generate electricity is known. Isnt the base load already topped up using privately owned Gas turbines? which already compensate for a less reliable resource of wind generation?
    I used to be more pro wind generation, but I think its limits could be better covered by widespread solar PV with gas turbines, than solely by gas turbines.

    I for one would consider PV only if there is a feed in tariff otherwise it will never take off. I think the idea that individual installers of PV are technically conversant enough or care enough beyond a sale to ensure installations are as efficient as they can be in terms of the manner in which the cells are wired up, means it would be better to have one central organisation (the network operator) advising on this rather than installers.

    It seems to be a win win for all, to supply the grid in the day and use the excess capacity present to charge EVs at night, I know its probably not this straightforward, so why aren;t we progressing? as it seems no progress is being made??
    Victor wrote: »
    How many kWh are needed to travel 40km?

    There is already a grid, with pretty much every country connected. https://www.electricitymap.org/?wind=false&solar=false&page=map

    There is no need to move electricity from say Spain to the UK - you just need to export from Spain to France and from France to UK.

    Just because the UK might leave the EU doesn't mean it won't take part in electrical trading.
    kceire wrote: »
    The moment Electric Cars are mentioned, the costs go up seemly.
    .
    Some are not sure how the sparks will sign off with wiring in place and simply terminated, but its no different to an external socket
    I suppose the RCBO, wiring is less than €100, the sparks charge €100 but when you multiply this over many houses (one of my sites has 200 units), the developer just sees the total cost and no benefit at present.

    It should be mandatory tbh

    I will keep at them, and I will be using Durkin as a reference to show them others are doing it.

    Couldnt they just terminate in an external socket and a circuit protection suited for that, have wiring size in place that can then have the circuit protection upgraded for a car charge point? rather than just terminating both ends of the wiring to nothing.


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    #63
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,120 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    kceire wrote: »
    The moment Electric Cars are mentioned, the costs go up seemly.
    Some are not sure how the sparks will sign off with wiring in place and simply terminated, but its no different to an external socket.

    I suppose the RCBO, wiring is less than €100, the sparks charge €100 but when you multiply this over many houses (one of my sites has 200 units), the developer just sees the total cost and no benefit at present.

    It should be mandatory tbh

    I will keep at them, and I will be using Durkin as a reference to show them others are doing it.

    Is it fair to assume that "most" new 3-bed semi's would have the consumer unit just inside the front door on the gable wall?

    If that is true the length of cable required to mount the charge point would be <5m and 6mm2 cable costs about €1.20/mtr ex Vat. External socket is €18. The RCBO is about €23 ex Vat so cable, RCBO and socket is below €50 ex Vat for most typical installs.

    In a new house I expect the labour involved, since they are already onsite, wouldn't be anything more than an hour (and even that would be pulling the mick).

    Electricians appear to be about €40-45/hr ex Vat.
    So, all in, to wire an external socket would cost €7.20 + €23 + €18 + €45 = €93 ex Vat.




    I suppose, the reality is that there is still nothing in it for the developer so why bother.


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    #64
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    KCross wrote: »
    Is it fair to assume that "most" new 3-bed semi's would have the consumer unit just inside the front door on the gable wall?

    If that is true the length of cable required to mount the charge point would be <5m and 6mm2 cable costs about €1.20/mtr ex Vat. External socket is €18. The RCBO is about €23 ex Vat so cable, RCBO and socket is below €50 ex Vat for most typical installs.

    In a new house I expect the labour involved, since they are already onsite, wouldn't be anything more than an hour (and even that would be pulling the mick).

    Electricians appear to be about €40-45/hr ex Vat.
    So, all in, to wire an external socket would cost €7.20 + €23 + €18 + €45 = €93 ex Vat.




    I suppose, the reality is that there is still nothing in it for the developer so why bother.

    Lately I'm seeing a lot of them in the utility in the center of the house to the rear. But that's beside the point, it's still only an extra couple of meters.

    Until they are forced to do it then it won't happen. I'll keep on their backs though.


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    #65
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,435 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    This latest from EirGrid, seems to favour sitting and waiting for PV installation price to fall to that it requires no price support in the mid 2020s.

    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/irish_solar_to_go_from_zero_deployment_to_grid_parity_by_mid_2020s

    Really great carbon vision!!!. Nearly as good as Trump.


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    #66
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Water John wrote: »
    This latest from EirGrid, seems to favour sitting and waiting for PV installation price to fall to that it requires no price support in the mid 2020s.

    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/irish_solar_to_go_from_zero_deployment_to_grid_parity_by_mid_2020s

    Really great carbon vision!!!. Nearly as good as Trump.
    A REFIT is a tax on other consumers, the added cost of metering billing issuing payments etc don't make financial sense.


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    #67
    bp_me
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    kceire wrote: »
    Most new builds now will have an external socket. Problem is that are to the rear. I've asked developers over the last 12 months to provide a 6mm sq cable from the fuse board to a termination point externally for future connection of a charge point but they all shy away from it.

    From a planning perspective, there's nothing yet but it should be lobbied for on new developments.

    I had no difficulty getting 10 square run from consumer unit to the right place (probably would have been neater to run SWA slightly further to a spot for a charging post but I didnt think of that when I asked them to do it). Cable will be terminated into a 16a external socket for the time being.


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    #68
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    bp_me wrote: »
    I had no difficulty getting 10 square run from consumer unit to the right place (probably would have been neater to run SWA slightly further to a spot for a charging post but I didnt think of that when I asked them to do it). Cable will be terminated into a 16a external socket for the time being.

    One off house or large development of 100's of houses?


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    #69
    bp_me
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    kceire wrote: »
    One off house or large development of 100's of houses?

    Suburban development.

    After I asked they added chargepoints to the house options list.


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    #70
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    bp_me wrote: »
    Suburban development.

    After I asked they added chargepoints to the house options list.

    Cool. What development is it?


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    #71
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    Water John wrote: »
    This latest from EirGrid, seems to favour sitting and waiting for PV installation price to fall to that it requires no price support in the mid 2020s.

    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/irish_solar_to_go_from_zero_deployment_to_grid_parity_by_mid_2020s

    Really great carbon vision!!!. Nearly as good as Trump.


    Why are they talking about battery storage? Shouldnt it be better to planning installations and how to go about it and sizing them to utilise whats generated? and why the wait? why not get started now, thats really saying a decade or more down the road assuming no further inaction or delays.

    If anyone has an good links for PV generation generally but related to domestic production and EV charging? Id be interested to find out more. Would really like to go EV, not sure how viable PV would be in assisting that, especially given there is no FIT. As much as I think any kind of hybridisation is a watered down version of two other ideas, I can see Id be more likely to go for a hybrid or preferably a plug in hybrid, its a bit off,but

    Interesting
    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/ikea_adds_battery_storage_to_clean_energy_line_up_with_lg_chem

    This looks interesting idea, I realise its for commerical and in the UK
    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/siemens_ci_customers_offered_no_money_down_energy_storage_financing


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    #72
    bp_me
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    1874 wrote: »
    Why are they talking about battery storage? Shouldnt it be better to planning installations and how to go about it and sizing them to utilise whats generated? and why the wait? why not get started now, thats really saying a decade or more down the road assuming no further inaction or delays.

    [/url]

    Well we have to figure out what to do with end of life EV batteries.. and there is certainly some interest in that in europe at the moment: https://msu.euramet.org/current_calls/industry_2017/SRTs/SRT-i25.pdf


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    #73
    Shoog
    Registered Users Posts: 5,114 ✭✭✭Shoog


    bp_me wrote: »
    Well we have to figure out what to do with end of life EV batteries.. and there is certainly some interest in that in europe at the moment: https://msu.euramet.org/current_calls/industry_2017/SRTs/SRT-i25.pdf
    I thought it was standard accepted design policy for EV batteries to get reused as house hold renewables storage at 10 years.

    Shoog


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    #74
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,335 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Just to update this, I now hear that large public car parking within new developments will have to contain at least 10% of the spots to be EV charge points.

    I've just got word from a development in South Dublin that has this condition but i'm afraid the Architect did not tell me specifically what development was.


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    #75
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    kceire wrote: »
    Just to update this, I now hear that large public car parking within new developments will have to contain at least 10% of the spots to be EV charge points.

    I've just got word from a development in South Dublin that has this condition but i'm afraid the Architect did not tell me specifically what development was.
    That doesn't sound right or at least it's not a requirement at the moment. I don't know of that being in any county development plan. Of it's a whim of a planner, it will be overturned on appeal.

    The 10% rule was a proposal from the EU commission to be discussed this summer, for implementation in 2025, but I think it was rejected by EU energy ministers due to it placing a high burden on developers.


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    #76
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    That doesn't sound right or at least it's not a requirement at the moment. I don't know of that being in any county development plan. Of it's a whim of a planner, it will be overturned on appeal.

    The 10% rule was a proposal from the EU commission to be discussed this summer, for implementation in 2025, but I think it was rejected by EU energy ministers due to it placing a high burden on developers.

    Got a link for that?


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    #77
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    goz83 wrote: »
    Got a link for that?

    https://euobserver.com/energy/138337
    Best link I could find at the moment.

    Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. It's just that 10% charging spaces would add a considerable extra cost to a large development so there would have been a bit of a fuss about that if it was a strategy adopted by a county.

    I can't recall seeing any designated EV spaces on any carpark planning application of late either.

    Not to paint it all in a negative light, the requirement to provide ducting to one in 3 spaces is quite progressive - although it is of little consequence in most carparks as the ducts are there for public lighting


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    #78
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    https://euobserver.com/energy/138337
    Best link I could find at the moment.

    Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. It's just that 10% charging spaces would add a considerable extra cost to a large development so there would have been a bit of a fuss about that if it was a strategy adopted by a county.

    I can't recall seeing any designated EV spaces on any carpark planning application of late either.

    Not to paint it all in a negative light, the requirement to provide ducting to one in 3 spaces is quite progressive - although it is of little consequence in most carparks as the ducts are there for public lighting

    I can't find any follow-up to the requested amendments in that article. Will be interesting to see if anyone can find the development kceire mentioned. I think 10% spots is sufficient as ev tech improves. The spots to be used for people who need them ideally.


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