Personal injury awards increase by 48% in 3 years.....

Liam McPoyle

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

So perhaps myself and a couple of other boardsies that actually work in the industry have been correct in alot of what we have been saying and that it's not simply a case of insurers charging what ever they want.

Two things are obvious to even the most myopic of individuals.

Claims in Ireland are at epidemic levels.

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Boards Claims Related Threads have risen by 47% over the same period. A strange correlation.

Wheeliebin30

Strange I read today this report shows claims are a tiny reason for insurance increases.

This will all come out soon, once the information of the raids that took place a few weeks ago comes out.

tomwaterford

[quote="Rod

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

[/quote]
How is this

blueser

Rod Munch wrote: »

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

So perhaps myself and a couple of other boardsies that actually work in the industry have been correct in alot of what we have been saying and that it's not simply a case of insurers charging what ever they want.

Two things are obvious to even the most myopic of individuals.

Claims in Ireland are at epidemic levels.

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

And is the insurance industry doing anything re. putting pressure on the legal and judicial systems to rein back in some of these excessive claims and fees? Lobbying government, perhaps? I'm 55 in december, I drive a "sensible" car (a 132 Focus, 1.6 diesel) and I have 10 years claim free driving. No penalty points. And I'm the only person on the policy. 3 years ago I was paying €350 fully comp; this year (february), I paid €570. That's a 63% increase.

Wheeliebin30

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motor-insurance-hikes-not-reflected-in-claims-data-as-payouts-have-not-risen-significantly-421063.html


"Motor insurance hikes not reflected in claims data as payouts have not risen significantly"

nullzero

*Trips over thread*

"there's a claim in this".

Liam McPoyle

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motor-insurance-hikes-not-reflected-in-claims-data-as-payouts-have-not-risen-significantly-421063.html


"Motor insurance hikes not reflected in claims data as payouts have not risen significantly"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/90936e26-6c01-11e7-bbfb-4556e0d95963

Payouts for claims were at record levels last year.

Anything else?

Liam McPoyle

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Strange I read today this report shows claims are a tiny reason for insurance increases.

This will all come out soon, once the information of the raids that took place a few weeks ago comes out.

"Raids" makes for good headlines.

What occurred is not what people think occurred.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Rod Munch wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/90936e26-6c01-11e7-bbfb-4556e0d95963

Payouts for claims were at record levels last year.

Anything else?

Nobodies doubting that increasing claims are leading to rising premiums. It's just the cosy arrangement between the government, the legal profession and the medical profession and the motor industry, where nobody wants to upset the gravy train, so they come up with newer ways to screw the ordinary Joe Soap. Why not push for legislation to cap awards for injuries? Nah, let's just stick a loading on ten year old cars instead, make them all buy new ones, sure they won't wanna crash those.

Rumpy Pumpy

Making a spurious personal injury claim is considered a rite of passage for a certain group of people who live here in Ireland.

Liam McPoyle

tomwaterford wrote: »

How is this

What do you mean?

As in how can legal costs be up tp 40%?

Depending on the type of claim it can take longer to get a better over view of what ever injuries occurred. It can be dragged through the various levels of the courts.

Longer length of time to settle claims = more billable hours for the claimants solicitor and for the solicitors representing the insurer so if the insurer ends up paying a claim they have to pay the associated legal fees as they have been held liable.

The injuries board was set up SPECIFICALLY to reduce legal fees but has not been overly successful as something in the region of 90% of injuries board claims are represented by solicitors.

Liam McPoyle

blueser wrote: »

And is the insurance industry doing anything re. putting pressure on the legal and judicial systems to rein back in some of these excessive claims and fees? Lobbying government, perhaps? I'm 55 in december, I drive a "sensible" car (a 132 Focus, 1.6 diesel) and I have 10 years claim free driving. No penalty points. And I'm the only person on the policy. 3 years ago I was paying €350 fully comp; this year (february), I paid €570. That's a 63% increase.

Tbh €350 is too low for anyone to be paying for a comp policy in this country. If the average premium over the last number of years was about €500 for drivers with a similar profile to yourself then we would not be seeing the massive spikes we have had.

As for what's being done, not enough imo.

I'd be very much in favour of an industry think tank with a couple of senior representatives from every insurer in the country. It would be overseen by a wholly impartial board and would include senior figures from the legal industry.

Part of the problem is that insurers and the legal fraternity are very much at odds with eachother. Insurers want lower settlement and legal fees, solicitors want higher settlement fees as it's more money in their pockets.

2forjoy

Can the OP who works in the industry talk to us about the extremely high wages paid to Insurance staff. Takk about the bonus payments paid to staff.
Talk about the high cost for exams /training for staff and the increases in remuneration for staff after they pass these exams .

Special Circumstances

Kevin Thompson, chief executive Insurance Ireland:

"Higher payouts
In addition, the average cost of claim was up approximately 8 per cent in private motor and approximately 27 per cent in public liability from 2012 to 2014. This means more claims and higher payouts; a routine whiplash case settles for €15,000 in Ireland, and €5,000 in the UK.
Of course, only a minority of such claims end up in court. For those that do, legal costs account for 60 per cent of compensation, according to the Injuries Board. This is especially costly as the average Circuit Court awards were up 14 per cent in 2014. Most claims are straightforward with no dispute over fault."


is this true?

How many claims are actually recorded in any transparent way?

How many never go through the injuries board?

How many never go to court?

Where are all the facts and figures?

Special Circumstances

2forjoy wrote: »

Can the OP who works in the industry talk to us about the extremely high wages paid to Insurance staff. Takk about the bonus payments paid to staff.
Talk about the high cost for exams /training for staff and the increases in remuneration for staff after they pass these exams .

Bonuses and bad investments have ZERO to do with their profits.

Liam McPoyle

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Nobodies doubting that increasing claims are leading to rising premiums. It's just the cosy arrangement between the government, the legal profession and the medical profession and the motor industry, where nobody wants to upset the gravy train, so they come up with newer ways to screw the ordinary Joe Soap. Why not push for legislation to cap awards for injuries? Nah, let's just stick a loading on ten year old cars instead, make them all buy new ones, sure they won't wanna crash those.

You can't cap awards really though because for those cases that are genuine the injured party could have life changing injuries due to the actions of someone else.

What I would like to see is a more common sense approach. For example, if one car bumps another in slow moving traffic or in a car park the chances of an injury occurring is miniscule all things considered. Nuisance claims like that should be capped at a couple of k.

One thing that I firmly believe would help would be to cap legal fees.

If there was a limit of say €1k fees payable for a whiplash / soft tissue damage claim then I guarantee alot of them would be settled alot cheaper. Claims of that nature make up something like 70% of all claims. Average payout is around €15k. Stick another 4 or 5 k legal fees on top of that, never mind medical expenses, loss of earnings etc. All of a sudden the €15k settlement has increased to near €25k.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Rod Munch wrote: »

I'd be very much in favour of an industry think tank with a couple of senior representatives from every insurer in the country. It would be overseen by a wholly impartial board and would include senior figures from the legal industry.

Part of the problem is that insurers and the legal fraternity are very much at odds with eachother. Insurers want lower settlement and legal fees, solicitors want higher settlement fees as it's more money in their pockets.

The turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas though. Yeah higher payouts equal higher premiums, but motor insurance is a legal requirement anyway, so people will pay what it costs, and claims will level themselves off. More claims equals more work for solicitors and doctors.

It's admirable that you try and defend your employer and the industry in general, but if you'd take a step back and realise that there's vested interests in keeping this thing going, and that the punters are just an easy target.

_Brian

Rod Munch wrote: »

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

So perhaps myself and a couple of other boardsies that actually work in the industry have been correct in alot of what we have been saying and that it's not simply a case of insurers charging what ever they want.

Two things are obvious to even the most myopic of individuals.

Claims in Ireland are at epidemic levels.

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

Having being involved in a long painstaking case for an award myself I feel the truth lies somewhere between people being gouged by fraudulent claimants, insurance companies and legal teams.
My experience is that neither the insurance companies nor legal teams have much moral ground to be publicly blaming the other.

Fraudulent claimants need to be prosecuted, not just have cases struck out.

SPDUB

Rod Munch wrote: »

"Raids" makes for good headlines.

What occurred is not what people think occurred.

So they had time to shred the more interesting files

And if you don't want me to get that impression then don't post something so vague

beauf

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Kevin Thompson, chief executive Insurance Ireland:

"Higher payouts
In addition, the average cost of claim was up approximately 8 per cent in private motor and approximately 27 per cent in public liability from 2012 to 2014. This means more claims and higher payouts; a routine whiplash case settles for €15,000 in Ireland, and €5,000 in the UK.
Of course, only a minority of such claims end up in court. For those that do, legal costs account for 60 per cent of compensation, according to the Injuries Board. This is especially costly as the average Circuit Court awards were up 14 per cent in 2014. Most claims are straightforward with no dispute over fault."


is this true?

How many claims are actually recorded in any transparent way?

How many never go through the injuries board?

How many never go to court?

Where are all the facts and figures?

Exactly.

There is no context to this report.

Every other day there is a report of some crazy award to someone with a history of previous awards. Occasionally we see some scam exposed, but no penalty for a fraudulent claim.

B.A._Baracus

So an insurance company provided these facts?
I dunno maybe it's just me but I would take anything an insurance company says with a pinch of salt.

Special Circumstances

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So an insurance company provided these facts?
I dunno maybe it's just me but I would take anything an insurance company says with a pinch of salt.

They have stats to back up ALL of these positions and assertions.





No.
You can't see them.


No, not even some anonymized repackaged amalgamated version which would protect personal details of customers and commercially sensitive details of the individual businesses.

Liam McPoyle

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So an insurance company provided these facts?
I dunno maybe it's just me but I would take anything an insurance company says with a pinch of salt.

Ok, so the injuries board are lying about the record payments that have been made.

And the audits performed by the department of finance are all false.

Lads ye can keep yet heads in the sand and lay the blame solely at the foot of insurers (they aren't blameless by the way, not by a long shot) but the fact of the matter is that claims payments have reached record levels and that is the main driver behind the increase in premiums.

Rod Munch

Rod Munch wrote: »

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

And my insurance premium this year, after shopping around and moving to a different insurer, went up an astonishing 82% (and I have still over 10 years no claims bonus). 82% increase in a single year. Do the maths. I have zero sympathy for these exceedingly rich glorified gamblers of the "too big to fail" variety. We are being screwed royally by insurance companies and their guaranteed income stream (by virtue of the state legislating that every vehicle owner must have motor insurance).

Meanwhile, this government and its pointless talking shop Oireachtas committees sit on its hands when it comes to taking action (as opposed to mouthing platitudes). As every study in the past 40 years continues to show, in the developed world the rich are getting much richer and inequality is growing hugely right before our eyes. This is largely as a result of the cartel-like behaviour of oligopolistic industries like insurance which are allowed by governments and laws to hold us to ransom (but who we have to bail out when their greed gets the better of them - so much for the "free market"; they keep their profits in the good times and we get their losses in the bad times).

Liam McPoyle

_Brian wrote: »

Having being involved in a long painstaking case for an award myself I feel the truth lies somewhere between people being gouged by fraudulent claimants, insurance companies and legal teams.
My experience is that neither the insurance companies nor legal teams have much moral ground to be publicly blaming the other.

Fraudulent claimants need to be prosecuted, not just have cases struck out.

I agree 100%.

There is no risk to people making false or exaggerated claims but massive potential reward. Until something is done to change that then we are going to have a problem.

Liam McPoyle

SPDUB wrote: »

So they had time to shred the more interesting files

And if you don't want me to get that impression then don't post something so vague

What do you think they would find?

A trail of emails between insurers agreeing to price fixing or something?

The "raids" were mainly related to fleet and hire and reward business - couriers and the like.

That is an extremely distressed section of business and drastic pricing measures were required to make it viable.

There is nothing cartel about increasing rates on a line of business that is haemorrhaging money.

And besides, in the main it was brokers that were raided.

Brokers do not set prices.

machiavellianme

Rod Munch wrote: »

Tbh €350 is too low for anyone to be paying for a comp policy in this country. If the average premium over the last number of years was about €500 for drivers with a similar profile to yourself then we would not be seeing the massive spikes we have had.

As for what's being done, not enough imo.

I'd be very much in favour of an industry think tank with a couple of senior representatives from every insurer in the country. It would be overseen by a wholly impartial board and would include senior figures from the legal industry.

Part of the problem is that insurers and the legal fraternity are very much at odds with eachother. Insurers want lower settlement and legal fees, solicitors want higher settlement fees as it's more money in their pockets.

Why exactly is 350 too low?
This chap has 10 years of no claims and significant driving experience.
That's not to mention the 0 penalty points.
If you ask me, he's paying a lot for very little in return - basically getting a slip of paper and a feeling of cover. It's not his job to cross subsidise the rest of society.

Allinall

machiavellianme wrote: »

If you ask me, he's paying a lot for very little in return - basically getting a slip of paper and a feeling of cover. It's not his job to cross subsidise the rest of society.

That's the whole basis on how insurance works.

The risk is spread over all premiums.

It's obvious that low risk drivers have to subsidies other claims.

Special Circumstances

machiavellianme wrote: »

Why exactly is 350 too low?
This chap has 10 years of no claims and significant driving experience.
That's not to mention the 0 penalty points.
If you ask me, he's paying a lot for very little in return - basically getting a slip of paper and a feeling of cover. It's not his job to cross subsidise the rest of society.

Rod is essentially saying that these fictitious example customers that they mention in the small print when they give example figures are miles away from any actual representative customer. Or so it seems to me!


Minimum price based on Mary the yaris driving mid forties accountant from Wexford? €350? Far too little for any of you REAL people to be paying. Suckers.

Special Circumstances

Allinall wrote: »

That's the whole basis on how insurance works.

The risk is spread over all premiums.

It's obvious that low risk drivers have to subsidies other claims.

You agree that 350 is too low?

What's the minimum amount you'd like to see Joe average handing over?

Wheeliebin30

Insurance was too cheap for years anyway. It wasn't sustainable.

Uninsured drivers.
Quinn.
Setanta.
Levies.

And other hidden stuff is what is leading to increases.

Claims are only a tiny percentage but very convenient for the companies.

Special Circumstances

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Insurance was too cheap for years anyway. It wasn't sustainable.

Uninsured drivers.
Quinn.
Setanta.
Levies.

And other hidden stuff is what is leading to increases.

Claims are only a tiny percentage but very convenient for the companies.

Bad investments?

Increased requirements for ring fenced money because they can't be trusted to run themselves responsibly?

Funny how you'd miss out on the biggies!

Barry Badrinath

It's all Rod's fault!

Damn you Rod!

Special Circumstances

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

It's all Rod's fault!

Damn you Rod!

It would explain a lot if he was in charge of the investments.

smurgen

Big deal, insurance premiums have risen an average of 70% in the last 4 years.

Wheeliebin30

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Bad investments?

Increased requirements for ring fenced money because they can't be trusted to run themselves responsibly?

Funny how you'd miss out on the biggies!

Yep. Add that one to the list too.

Wibbs

Rod Munch wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/90936e26-6c01-11e7-bbfb-4556e0d95963

Payouts for claims were at record levels last year.

Anything else?

Yeah, the vast majority of claims settled by your industry are settled out of court. Last time I looked a government report measured this at 70% of all claims. Claims for which figures are nebulous at best and entirely absent at worse. Now why would insurance companies settle out of court? It's not because it will cost them more.

Straight from the horses mouth.

"Finance Committee report criticises “dysfunctional” motor insurance market
The Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach today launched its report on the Rising Costs of Motor Insurance.

24th November 2016

Some of the report’s key recommendations include:

• An end to the “closed shop” mentality of the industry and calls for full transparency in relation to claims information;

• Calls for the Central Statistics Office to be given a statutory role in collating insurance data;

• Recommends that consumers be given detailed cost information in renewal notices;

• Calls for more pro-active regulation of the industry by the Central Bank of Ireland with a greater focus on consumer protection;

• Recommends that insurance companies be compelled to inform the consumer whether they have taken into account the mandatory medical assessments for over 70s drivers when calculating insurance premia for this cohort;

• Greater powers for the Personal Injuries Assessment Board (PIAB), with the objective of increasing the number of claims cases settled by PIAB, thereby reduces claims costs generally;

• Insurers be compelled to notify customers in advance of settling claims made against them;

• Recommends that the Book of Quantum be reviewed and updated on a regular basis;

• Recommends that recent changes to the monetary jurisdictions of the civil courts be reviewed."

“Many claims are settled outside PIAB and the courts and the insurance company pay-outs are essentially invisible. We are calling for insurance companies to be compelled to provide detailed information on claims settled outside of PIAB and for PIAB to be modernised.”

Mitch Connor

I don't know how people have the energy to make claims unless they are serious.

My wife was crashed into last year, he knee has been buggered ever since and no amount of MRI's, Physio or consultants have been able to sort it. After a little over a year the Injuries Board said they couldn't rule on her case and told her to get a solicitor involved and go to court with it.

She's been through countless appointments, calls with the insurance companies, attended a load of doctors at the insurance companies request, provided tons of forms - and she is no closer to even getting back the money she has lost (time off work during which she didn't get paid, doctors bills, physio bills etc). She just wants the whole thing to be done with but it seems like there is going to be another couple of years at least.

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, I moved back to Germany last year.
I bought a 2005 Cmax, 2 liter diesel.
I rang the insurance company and said "I would like to insure a 12 year old, 2 liter diesel Ford 136 horses and I've just spent over 20 years abroad, will you accept this letter from my Irish insurance in English?"
And they said "certainly, I have set up your contract, your premium is €500, apologies that it's so high, but since you don't do non claims past 5 years in Ireland, that's all we can give you. It'll come down quite a bit over time".
Had I had 10 years, I would have paid a little over 300 for 3rd party.
Had I had zero no claims I would have paid €700! Needless to say in Ireland I would have paid north of €3k.
Here's another thing, 3rd party actually costs a lot less than comprehensive here.

What's different?
The same insurance companies in a lot of cases (Alliance for example), they also had difficult times investing after 2008, actually more accidents in Germany (Ireland is statistically safer) and a lot more traffic. Well, the difference is the book of quantum. Whiplash pays out €12 to €15 k for non serious, non permanent injuries, i.e. no visible tissue or bone damage.
In Germany you will receive between €600 to €2500 for such an injury, with no permanent injuries and no more than 4 weeks out of work.
Of course out of work arrangements and after care may be different, you'll get a prescribing for physio for example. But I can't see physio in Ireland costing €10k+.
Plus court cases in Ireland drag on for years, rather than months here, so the solicitor can keep writing up the hours.

This is just for your average, non serious, non permanent whiplash, disregarding people with real, quantifiable injuries for now.
The argument is "but frequency and cost of payouts hasn't risen that much!".
Let's just disregard the evidence for now and say they haven't, but if you're at a level where the payout for sore neck is 12 to 15k, i.e. 6 to 7 times what is paid out anywhere else in Europe, the only acceptable way is down and way down at that.

Only a complete fool would argue that payouts at the level of Ireland have no influence on premiums. But if you want to argue that and insist there is no problem, I reckon you are OK with paying north of a grand for car insurance and that's only if you are an exemplary driver with a clean record and a car less than 5 years old. We're not even talking about the €5k plus it will cost you if you've had any kind of trouble or convictions. Or maybe you are making enough money from the current situation that even insurance at 2k+ won't bother you and fcuk the plebs.
Or you're just a quarehog whose been shown the problem and the solution and you would rather pay stupid insurance prices because you can't admit the problem and that someone else might be right. And besides you love complaining so much you prefer the situation to drag on as it is so you have something to complain about.

edit:
Re out of court settlements, if your business has frequent claims and the result is in a lot of cases the judge will award money anyway, regardless of how flimsy or dodgy the case is, the only sensible course of action is to settle out of court. That way the claimant is given €20k, but at least the extra €40k of legal fees have been avoided.

blackwhite

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motor-insurance-hikes-not-reflected-in-claims-data-as-payouts-have-not-risen-significantly-421063.html


"Motor insurance hikes not reflected in claims data as payouts have not risen significantly"

That only includes claims that were concluded within the PIAB structures.

Anything where the PIAB was not involved in the conclusion (i.e. anything that the plaintiff or respondent brought to court) was not included in their data.

blackwhite

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, I moved back to Germany last year.
I bought a 2005 Cmax, 2 liter diesel.
I rang the insurance company and said "I would like to insure a 12 year old, 2 liter diesel Ford 136 horses and I've just spent over 20 years abroad, will you accept this letter from my Irish insurance in English?"
And they said "certainly, I have set up your contract, your premium is €500, apologies that it's so high, but since you don't do non claims past 5 years in Ireland, that's all we can give you. It'll come down quite a bit over time".
Had I had 10 years, I would have paid a little over 300 for 3rd party.
Had I had zero no claims I would have paid €700! Needless to say in Ireland I would have paid north of €3k.
Here's another thing, 3rd party actually costs a lot less than comprehensive here.

What's different?
The same insurance companies in a lot of cases (Alliance for example), they also had difficult times investing after 2008, actually more accidents in Germany (Ireland is statistically safer) and a lot more traffic. Well, the difference is the book of quantum. Whiplash pays out €12 to €15 k for non serious, non permanent injuries, i.e. no visible tissue or bone damage.
In Germany you will receive between €600 to €2500 for such an injury, with no permanent injuries and no more than 4 weeks out of work.
Of course out of work arrangements and after care may be different, you'll get a prescribing for physio for example. But I can't see physio in Ireland costing €10k+.
Plus court cases in Ireland drag on for years, rather than months here, so the solicitor can keep writing up the hours.

This is just for your average, non serious, non permanent whiplash, disregarding people with real, quantifiable injuries for now.
The argument is "but frequency and cost of payouts hasn't risen that much!".
Let's just disregard the evidence for now and say they haven't, but if you're at a level where the payout for sore neck is 12 to 15k, i.e. 6 to 7 times what is paid out anywhere else in Europe, the only acceptable way is down and way down at that.

Only a complete fool would argue that payouts at the level of Ireland have no influence on premiums. But if you want to argue that and insist there is no problem, I reckon you are OK with paying north of a grand for car insurance and that's only if you are an exemplary driver with a clean record and a car less than 5 years old. We're not even talking about the €5k plus it will cost you if you've had any kind of trouble or convictions. Or maybe you are making enough money from the current situation that even insurance at 2k+ won't bother you and fcuk the plebs.
Or you're just a quarehog whose been shown the problem and the solution and you would rather pay stupid insurance prices because you can't admit the problem and that someone else might be right. And besides you love complaining so much you prefer the situation to drag on as it is so you have something to complain about.

edit:
Re out of court settlements, if your business has frequent claims and the result is in a lot of cases the judge will award money anyway, regardless of how flimsy or dodgy the case is, the only sensible course of action is to settle out of court. That way the claimant is given €20k, but at least the extra €40k of legal fees have been avoided.

Continental Europeans seem to have a very different attitude to making claims than Irish (or indeed British) people.

Company I work for has over 1000 locations in 3 European countries - all open to the public and the vast majority have no staff present on the sites.
In Ireland there'd be a certain type of person queuing up to trip or fall over a kerb on our sites.
In the 3 years I've been over the finance team for the business I've seen one personal injury claim arising from our sites. One.

It's no wonder that insurance is so much cheaper on the continent - public attitudes make a big difference.

Skylinehead

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

It's all Rod's fault!

Damn you Rod!

Liam McPoyle

blackwhite wrote: »

Continental Europeans seem to have a very different attitude to making claims than Irish (or indeed British) people.

Company I work for has over 1000 locations in 3 European countries - all open to the public and the vast majority have no staff present on the sites.
In Ireland there'd be a certain type of person queuing up to trip or fall over a kerb on our sites.
In the 3 years I've been over the finance team for the business I've seen one personal injury claim arising from our sites. One.

It's no wonder that insurance is so much cheaper on the continent - public attitudes make a big difference.

Yep.

I read a week or two ago in the local newspaper that the longford county council have seen a huge increase in slip/trip/fall claims being lodged against them over the last while.

In one month alone this year there were 12 new claims lodged.

:eek:

@ Dr Fuzz, excellent post sir.

B.A._Baracus

Rod Munch wrote: »

Ok, so the injuries board are lying about the record payments that have been made.

And the audits performed by the department of finance are all false.

Lads ye can keep yet heads in the sand and lay the blame solely at the foot of insurers (they aren't blameless by the way, not by a long shot) but the fact of the matter is that claims payments have reached record levels and that is the main driver behind the increase in premiums.

Insurance companies are in the game of making money. They constantly hike the price of cover. They say it's because of personal injury claims, fraudsters etc. Always someone else "screwing" you over. Never them just hiking because they want to. Convenient.

So yeah... I do take it with a pinch of salt.

Rod Munch

Rod Munch wrote: »

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

Isn't that simply their job?

They're not the advocates for societal welfare, they're advocates for their client.

You have a point about legal costs, but a lawyer's job is essentially to act as a client would wish to, were s/he in possession of full legal knowledge, within the constraints of ethical codes of practice.

They're called advocates, not arbiters of justice. I'm sure lots of lawyers find their clients (and their actions) distasteful

dr.fuzzenstein

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Isn't that simply their job?

They're not the advocates for societal welfare, they're advocates for their client.

You have a point about legal costs, but a lawyer's job is essentially to act as a client would wish to, were s/he in possession of full legal knowledge, within the constraints of ethical codes of practice.

They're called advocates, not arbiters of justice. I'm sure lots of lawyers find their clients (and their actions) distasteful

I would tend to agree. It is the job of the legal profession to sell their services to as many clients as possible and get the best possible outcome for them and besides that to get as much revenue for themselves as anyhow possible.
I can't blame the legal profession, for them getting a client €20k because they banged their shin off a table is a resounding success and their aim will be to get more people to sue for it and try to get €30k next time and more after that.
So the problem is for the state to reign in this completely insane system. From my outside point of view the obvious solution would be to lob a zero off every number in the book of quantum and awards would still be generous. Of course the legal profession will resist any and all changes, as they have done so far, so there is no telling how they would react. Not well I suppose.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Thieves, Gougers, Scum, Immoral etc. These are some of the words that are being used here to describe Insurance Companies. These are the SAME insurers that offered us all €300 premiums for a number of years.

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

From my outside point of view the obvious solution would be to lob a zero off every number in the book of quantum and awards would still be generous. Of course the legal profession will resist any and all changes, as they have done so far, so there is no telling how they would react. Not well I suppose.

Surely that would just amplify the existing dissatisfaction with the PIAB, and thereby add to the number of actions coming before the courts. Judges are not bound by the book of quantum, they operate in accordance with their own standards.

This will increase insurance premiums due to the cost of litigation, and may well enhance the size of awards.

I'm not sure what can be done on the legal side, apart from restricting access to the courts or capping awards through legislation, both of which sound like they might be constitutionally dodgy approaches.

Having said all that, I think the insurance industry is also attempting to give itself a free-pass here.

dr.fuzzenstein

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Surely that would just amplify the existing dissatisfaction with the PIAB, and thereby add to the number of actions coming before the courts. Judges are not bound by the book of quantum, they operate in accordance with their own standards.

This will increase insurance premiums due to the cost of litigation, and may well enhance the size of awards.

I'm not sure what can be done on the legal side, apart from restricting access to the courts or capping awards through legislation, both of which sound like they might be constitutionally dodgy approaches.

Having said all that, I think the insurance industry is also attempting to give itself a free-pass here.

You know, I always suspected that judges hand out money like sweets to kids as is their fancy with absolutely no basis in reality or commen sense.

McCrack

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You know, I always suspected that judges hand out money like sweets to kids as is their fancy with absolutely no basis in reality or commen sense.

They dont

You should Google and read Shannon v. O'Sullivan 2016 for guidance

Courts must have regard to the PIAB Book of Quantum and also Court of Appeal decisions such as the Shannon case but there are other cases also