Teacher Unemployment

Dylan94

I was wondering if there are any statistics available regarding current levels of unemployment and underemployment among post primary teachers in Ireland?

If not what would people currently see as being the outlook for NQT's? What are the chances of say a NQT from this year's cohort of new teachers being unemployed come September?

NinetyTwoTeam

I only know a few, all but one had to go abroad for work, and one is unemployed over a year and is now on Jobpath where they are trying to make him take on minimum wage jobs in retail, assembly lines, etc. And he's probably the brightest of the ones I know. Before this they were staffing schools with interns.

The only fields that pay well now and are also hiring seem to be tech, finance, engineering, chemical/laboratory work for large multinationals. Front line workers who really make a huge difference every day to people like teachers, nurses are underpaid, overworked nd underappreciated big time in Ireland,much better pay and conditions abroad.

TheDriver

Its a difficult one to survey because it depends on many factors including subject availability, location, experience etc.

spurious

Look at how many are coming out of all the training courses.
Look at the numbers (and types) of job advertised.

There is nothing new about an over supply of teachers. Yes, there will be some subject areas in which there are more vacancies, but it's simple enough. We are training more than there are jobs for. We have been for years and yet year after year, they pack them in.

TheDriver

And unfortunately they pass some who should never pass a teaching qualification. There's some names I see applying year after year after year

Crazyteacher

So do you automatically shortlist them because you see the same names applying thedriver?

thefasteriwalk

TheDriver wrote: »

And unfortunately they pass some who should never pass a teaching qualification. There's some names I see applying year after year after year

What kind of things lead a principal to determine that someone should not have passed the dip?

Starkystark

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

What kind of things lead a principal to determine that someone should not have passed the dip?

I would be very interested to know this too!

Dylan94

In going into my 2nd year on the PME. I knew that it was going to be difficult to get a job and that it would likely be years before I got anything secure. My own degree is in finance so I feel like I at least have a back up if in say 4 years time I am not getting anywhere with jobs. I'm teaching Business, Geography and Economics. I would also love to do the Limerick course for math.

For now though I done a hdip after my degree and before the PME. Im doing 2 courses this summer and basically doing everything I can to make myself a good teacher. I'm doing as much extra curriculars as possible and am currently upskilling to be able to teach coding as an extra curricular.

And regarding the same names that the principal said he seeing every year applying and he knows they shouldn't have passed the PME. They are the same people that make me panic about my own career. I often see people on voice for teachers saying how they are job searching the past 8 years and still have nothing. I'm am wondering if they are the same people who are on my PME course who are obviously unsuited to teaching.

To me it seems as though at least a third of them would not be suitable to teach and about 80% of them would never survive a day in a DEIS school.

mtoutlemonde

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

What kind of things lead a principal to determine that someone should not have passed the dip?

I've seen some dips that wouldn't make it in teaching for a number of reasons. These are: Poor classroom management, failure to make relationships with students/staff, poor subject knowledge, failure to prepare, not getting involved with extra curricular, not showing interest in school, poor time management etc.

The best I've seen is a dip who had to take a day off after dip inspections due to stress/burnout. This person was very unreliable - could decide to go home at lunch and tell you to teach the class without explaining what the class was doing. This person also had very little social skills and found it difficult to say hello in the morning. I know if I were principal of a school, this person who be the last person I'd calling for a teaching position.

On the other hand, the majority of dips I've seen are excellent and will make excellent teachers. I think personality is a big thing in teaching and these people were the reverse of the reasons above. These people will get jobs.

Teacher employment is a problem that the universities should be dealing with but will they ... not on your life - they want your money and don't care after that. I still remember when I started my dip - introduction lecture - there are loads of jobs - end of dip - good luck, you might be lucky to get a maternity leave but be ready for the long haul in getting your own hours. However I can't understand that many schools had problems getting subs this year.

thefasteriwalk

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I've seen some dips that wouldn't make it in teaching for a number of reasons. These are: Poor classroom management, failure to make relationships with students/staff, poor subject knowledge, failure to prepare, not getting involved with extra curricular, not showing interest in school, poor time management etc.

The best I've seen is a dip who had to take a day off after dip inspections due to stress/burnout. This person was very unreliable - could decide to go home at lunch and tell you to teach the class without explaining what the class was doing. This person also had very little social skills and found it difficult to say hello in the morning. I know if I were principal of a school, this person who be the last person I'd calling for a teaching position.

On the other hand, the majority of dips I've seen are excellent and will make excellent teachers. I think personality is a big thing in teaching and these people were the reverse of the reasons above. These people will get jobs.

Teacher employment is a problem that the universities should be dealing with but will they ... not on your life - they want your money and don't care after that. I still remember when I started my dip - introduction lecture - there are loads of jobs - end of dip - good luck, you might be lucky to get a maternity leave but be ready for the long haul in getting your own hours. However I can't understand that many schools had problems getting subs this year.

Jesus. I've only ever seen the poor classroom management one. And that's more with NQTs since the dip classes tend to be fine. However, what I have seen too often in my school is NQTs walking into 22 hr contracts and getting CIDs having never done any extra-curricular, waltzing out the door at 3.50 and never doing anything outside the classroom. Maybe it shoudnt annoy me as much as it does - they're doing what they're oaid to do - but I give up so much time for my E-C activity as do some others who are there a long time.

themusicman

I had the pleasure of sitting in on interviews in June, and I won't be breaking any rules by putting out here what struck me, a teacher in their 3rd decade of teaching.

Lots and lots of candidates read the websites, know their stuff, but just don't know how to make themselves standout.

Let me give a simple example....everyone is always asked about extra curricular...its a real no surprise question. But for me the surprise was the answers....Im interested in.....I'd like to get involved in.....
But no sign of that interest in anything they have done....if you are interested in getting involved in a sport do the basic coaching courses....the GAA ones take about 8 hours...thats not much to do....yet it sounds so much better saying I have coaching badges than saying I'm like to get involved in.

Some subjects are way oversubscribed......so talk is cheap in those interviews.....dont make wishy washy statements.....prove what you say is true!

evolving_doors

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Jesus. I've only ever seen the poor classroom management one. And that's more with NQTs since the dip classes tend to be fine. However, what I have seen too often in my school is NQTs walking into 22 hr contracts and getting CIDs having never done any extra-curricular, waltzing out the door at 3.50 and never doing anything outside the classroom. Maybe it shoudnt annoy me as much as it does - they're doing what they're oaid to do - but I give up so much time for my E-C activity as do some others who are there a long time.

Maybe there's no pressure on them to do it.... because someone is already doing it all.
Time for a break maybe!

It's unusual though as most of the jobs I've looked at say 'a willingness to take on extra curricular'

It should never have anything to do with classroom contracts imo.

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Maybe there's no pressure on them to do it.... because someone is already doing it all.
Time for a break maybe!

It's unusual though as most of the jobs I've looked at say 'a willingness to take on extra curricular'

It should never have anything to do with classroom contracts imo.

But unfortunately it has in any of the interviews I've attended.

spurious

Not a Principal, but I helped out on a first 'selection' of interview candidates for a crazily over-subscribed small number of hours position that came up in our school a few years ago.

• a number of applications sent to the Principal when all ads clearly stated that they were to be sent to the school secretary (who was named)
• a large number of applications were not for the subjects advertised
• a number had no TC number, or were not registered (again, specifically asked for in the ad)
• applications with the word Principal or the name of the school spelled incorrectly

It really was quite shocking.

Romantic Rose

TheDriver wrote: »

And unfortunately they pass some who should never pass a teaching qualification. There's some names I see applying year after year after year

It's interesting you say that because I know a lot of people who I wouldn't class as particularly bright go into teaching and they do get jobs which is the disheartening thing about it.

I went to a wedding in Thurles one year and one teacher turned around to me and asked me where Thurles is! The home of the GAA, you're meant to know this. I was gobsmacked that a primary teacher asked me that.

On the lacking social skills thing, I worked in schools where people had great social skills but were still unfriendly. But if an inspector or priest came into the school, they would turn on the charm no end. Lovely people then.

It's tough one really.

Starkystark

The whole thing on social skills annoys me. What do you people classify as social skills?

Those teachers that sit around the staff room gossiping and b*itching all day everyday and look down upon those teachers that have no interest in that crap and get on with their work.

I've often overheard in the staff room "oh he's a bit odd", just because he simply gets on with his job.

Social skills ey?

Tom Dunne

Maybe it's not social skills, maybe it's more interpersonal skills?

I would argue that anyone who stands up in front of a class, whether it is primary, secondary or third-level, needs to be personable, approachable and able to work with people, young and not so young.

Snapgal

Dylan94 wrote: »

In going into my 2nd year on the PME. I knew that it was going to be difficult to get a job and that it would likely be years before I got anything secure. My own degree is in finance so I feel like I at least have a back up if in say 4 years time I am not getting anywhere with jobs. I'm teaching Business, Geography and Economics. I would also love to do the Limerick course for math.

For now though I done a hdip after my degree and before the PME. Im doing 2 courses this summer and basically doing everything I can to make myself a good teacher. I'm doing as much extra curriculars as possible and am currently upskilling to be able to teach coding as an extra curricular.

And regarding the same names that the principal said he seeing every year applying and he knows they shouldn't have passed the PME. They are the same people that make me panic about my own career. I often see people on voice for teachers saying how they are job searching the past 8 years and still have nothing. I'm am wondering if they are the same people who are on my PME course who are obviously unsuited to teaching.

To me it seems as though at least a third of them would not be suitable to teach and about 80% of them would never survive a day in a DEIS school.

What an insult to principals and Deputy Principals in DEIS schools.I taught in a DEIS school in an area in Limerick where over half of students came from from deprived areas. Management were superb in this school and I never had an issue with discipline in this school. Parents were very supportive- one student even achieved 9 As in her Junior Cert. I taught in a voluntary school in a rural area which was more difficult as a lot students who came from strong GAA backgrounds thought they could do what they liked.

mtoutlemonde

Snapgal wrote: »

What an insult to principals and Deputy Principals in DEIS schools.I taught in a DEIS school in an area in Limerick where over half of students came from from deprived areas. Management were superb in this school and I never had an issue with discipline in this school. Parents were very supportive- one student even achieved 9 As in her Junior Cert. I taught in a voluntary school in a rural area which was more difficult as a lot students who came from strong GAA backgrounds thought they could do what they liked.

Re-read the thread - he is not insulting principals or deputies he is talking about teachers who would not make it in a DEIS school.

rainbowtrout

Romantic Rose wrote: »

It's interesting you say that because I know a lot of people who I wouldn't class as particularly bright go into teaching and they do get jobs which is the disheartening thing about it.

I went to a wedding in Thurles one year and one teacher turned around to me and asked me where Thurles is! The home of the GAA, you're meant to know this. I was gobsmacked that a primary teacher asked me that.

On the lacking social skills thing, I worked in schools where people had great social skills but were still unfriendly. But if an inspector or priest came into the school, they would turn on the charm no end. Lovely people then.

It's tough one really.

They should probably know where Thurles is, but not everyone's life revolves around GAA. I did not know it was the 'home of the GAA', I do consider it the spiritual home of Feile though :pac:

Romantic Rose

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They should probably know where Thurles is, but not everyone's life revolves around GAA. I did not know it was the 'home of the GAA', I do consider it the spiritual home of Feile though :pac:

My point was that teachers should have a wide general knowledge. To me, knowing that the GAA was started in Hayes Hotel in Thurles is a big deal in our sporting history. It's just basic facts. How can you impart knowledge if you don't know it yourself.

I have come across some very ditzy teachers and I do wonder how they get survive in the classroom.

However, my views on teaching and how it has changed in say the last 15 years are quite strong. I think it has become a very watered and dumbed down profession.

I better not start or I'll end up getting in trouble.

rainbowtrout

Romantic Rose wrote: »

My point was that teachers should have a wide general knowledge. To me, knowing that the GAA was started in Hayes Hotel in Thurles is a big deal in our sporting history. It's just basic facts. How can you impart knowledge if you don't know it yourself.

I have come across some very ditzy teachers and I do wonder how they get survive in the classroom.

However, my views on teaching and how it has changed in say the last 15 years are quite strong. I think it has become a very watered and dumbed down profession.

I better not start or I'll end up getting in trouble.

And it's a big deal to you. It doesn't matter in the slightest to me. What you are doing is deciding that people are not knowledgeable if they don't know something that you take an interest in. Granted, a lot of people have an interest in GAA, but not everyone does.

But for what it's worth, should I label everyone a dumbass if they don't know that Munster beat the All Blacks 12-0 in 1978???? Horses for courses.

People are paid to impart knowledge in a subject they are qualified in. That doesn't mean they have to know the history of the GAA. I didn't grow up in a GAA household none of my friends did either. It doesn't mean I don't have a wide general knowledge otherwise.

I think graduates coming through have a poorer general knowledge overall, partly stemming from a dumbing down in the education system, and partly because their lives are consumed by social media. But in an educational setting I'd be more concerned when they don't have a good knowledge of the subject area they are supposed to be qualified in.


On the actual thread topic, I think it's hard to gauge unemployment levels in teaching because if you ask any college for graduate employment figures they will present figures for those in actual employment, whether that be in a field relevant to the qualification or stacking shelves in the local supermarket. Also similar graduate figures might take into account a percentage that have emigrated, but it's never clear if they chose to of their own account or because they couldn't get work here.

Eimee90

TheDriver wrote:

And unfortunately they pass some who should never pass a teaching qualification. There's some names I see applying year after year after year

I'm really surprised at this comment. I graduated with a first class honours in my dip three years ago, I have subbed constantly since then, as well as working part time jobs to survive. I got my first break this year with a good contract. You would have seen my name every year as well. Should I have not been passed?

Eimee90

themusicman wrote:

Let me give a simple example....everyone is always asked about extra curricular...its a real no surprise question. But for me the surprise was the answers....Im interested in.....I'd like to get involved in..... But no sign of that interest in anything they have done....if you are interested in getting involved in a sport do the basic coaching courses....the GAA ones take about 8 hours...thats not much to do....yet it sounds so much better saying I have coaching badges than saying I'm like to get involved in.

This irritates me though. We are qualified to teach, not kick footballs after school or teach the next best choir. I have no problem with doing a bit of extracurricular but I've seen too many new teachers forced to take up some after school club that they have no interest in or talent because it may "lead to them being kept on next year" sad that it has to come to this to be perfectly honest.

Eimee90

rainbowtrout wrote:

I think graduates coming through have a poorer general knowledge overall, partly stemming from a dumbing down in the education system, and partly because their lives are consumed by social media. But in an educational setting I'd be more concerned when they don't have a good knowledge of the subject area they are supposed to be qualified in.

Could I see statistics for this please? I wasn't made aware when I qualified only three years ago that my formal education, and apparent obsession with social media has made me a dumbed down teacher.

Stereotypical nonsense.

rainbowtrout

elsa21 wrote: »

I'm really surprised at this comment. I graduated with a first class honours in my dip three years ago, I have subbed constantly since then, as well as working part time jobs to survive. I got my first break this year with a good contract. You would have seen my name every year as well. Should I have not been passed?

And I suspect that the original post was in relation to subs who send in CVs to schools year after year who have been given a go and were not good teachers.

We have had subs in my school and when they are good subs they are given more work, sometimes it leads to a contract. Sometimes it's unfortunate that there just isn't anything to match their subjects. But you know they will land a job somewhere.

Others though, you wonder why they are sticking with it, because there's no enthusiasm there, no classroom management skills, no initiative and no desire to develop any of these things.

elsa21 wrote: »

Could I see statistics for this please? I wasn't made aware when I qualified only three years ago that my formal education, and apparent obsession with social media has made me a dumbed down teacher.

Stereotypical nonsense.

I don't have statistics, but I have noticed that a lot of new teachers know a lot less coming in than teachers gone before them. Many do not have basic skills in the science lab that I would expect them to have and do not have an excellent knowledge of their subject area.

I'm also an examiner and do practical and written exams. So I see a bit of this travelling to numerous schools around the country.

I've had sub teachers sit down beside me in my staffroom and ask me if I could help them with a question in maths..... more than once. I do find that worrying when a teacher with a maths degree cannot figure out a question in a Junior Cert maths book.

mirrorwall14

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And I suspect that the original post was in relation to subs who send in CVs to schools year after year who have been given a go and were not good teachers.

We have had subs in my school and when they are good subs they are given more work, sometimes it leads to a contract. Sometimes it's unfortunate that there just isn't anything to match their subjects. But you know they will land a job somewhere.

Others though, you wonder why they are sticking with it, because there's no enthusiasm there, no classroom management skills, no initiative and no desire to develop any of these things.



I don't have statistics, but I have noticed that a lot of new teachers know a lot less coming in than teachers gone before them. Many do not have basic skills in the science lab that I would expect them to have and do not have an excellent knowledge of their subject area.

I'm also an examiner and do practical and written exams. So I see a bit of this travelling to numerous schools around the country.

I've had sub teachers sit down beside me in my staffroom and ask me if I could help them with a question in maths..... more than once. I do find that worrying when a teacher with a maths degree cannot figure out a question in a Junior Cert maths book.

I've had a substitute maths teacher with one class group from a maternity sub (so not swamped with hours) unable to tell me what they had done the previous week and exactly where they were in the topic (JC). I've had a different substitute maths teacher outright teach my class a concept incorrectly. And I mean totally incorrectly, it wasn't a topic that the teaching had changed in or anything

mtoutlemonde

elsa21 wrote: »

Could I see statistics for this please? I wasn't made aware when I qualified only three years ago that my formal education, and apparent obsession with social media has made me a dumbed down teacher.

Stereotypical nonsense.

Have a look at the Voice For Teachers Facebook page ... where the posters never heard of Google and the spelling and grammar is frightening. I worry about the next generation when I read that page. Thankfully it doesn't happen here as much.

evolving_doors

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Have a look at the Voice For Teachers Facebook page ... where the posters never heard of Google and the spelling and grammar is frightening. I worry about the next generation when I read that page. Thankfully it doesn't happen here as much.

Yes I seen that too. Their always looking for pacific advise when they should of just looked on the departments' website.

mtoutlemonde

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Yes I seen that too. Their always looking for pacific advise when they should of just looked on the departments' website.

You 'should of' put that in as well Just to add I am a grammar Nazi but I went to university and demand a certain standard of English. It doesn't make sense correcting spelling and grammar from students if teachers don't take the time to use correct English. I love looking at the school reports