Irish Border and Brexit

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, no primary source for that quotation and equally as importantly, it was allegedly about the IRA ceasefire not the GFA as stated by you.

I am not getting any further into this as it is going way off topic but at best this "quote" appears to be an urban myth. Let's just leave it there.

Point of order again: You said 'I was the only one who quoted him'. You were WRONG.

I have conceded that you can believe what you want about it. I understand why some would not want him to have said it.

Now can you deal with the actual point I made?

knipex

blanch152 wrote: »

If we started today, with utmost urgency, probably about five years to do it, more likely given the capital required and the long planning process, more like a decade.

You could do it all overnight in Cork, Dublin, Roslare and Foynes but it will have absolutely zero impact on the hard border, or lack there of, in Northern Ireland.

We have capacity in all our ports, including Dublin. All we are doing is rerouting ferry traffic from the UK (that used to use the UK as a road bridge) direct to continental Europe.

I am not logistic expert and have no idea what impact this woudl have on shipping costs and times but apparently a huge amount of Irish shipping gets ferry from Ireland to UK and then by road and tunnel \ ferry to continental Europe which always struck me as strange..

Why not ship direct..

murphaph

knipex wrote: »

You could do it all overnight in Cork, Dublin, Roslare and Foynes but it will have absolutely zero impact on the hard border, or lack there of, in Northern Ireland.

We have capacity in all our ports, including Dublin. All we are doing is rerouting ferry traffic from the UK (that used to use the UK as a road bridge) direct to continental Europe.

I am not logistic expert and have no idea what impact this woudl have on shipping costs and times but apparently a huge amount of Irish shipping gets ferry from Ireland to UK and then by road and tunnel \ ferry to continental Europe which always struck me as strange..

Why not ship direct..

It's much quicker to ship via the land bridge for most markets. The ferry takes like 24 hours from Rosslare to Cherbourg (IIRC, it's a long time since I was on it). The slow ferry to Holyhead is three hours. The slow ferries across the English channel (or la Manche as it shall be known after Brexit lol) take an hour or so, so you need to be taking 20 hrs+ to get down to Dover to be slower than taking the "direct" ferry.

Our ports don't have the capacity for the customs checks required once the UK leaves the customs union. Trade has massively increased since 1993.

If we are forced to ship much more product direct to avoid UK customs delays (and French/Irish ones on the other side) then we need to massively expand Rosslare and finish the motorway to it (and possibly upgrade the N24 and N25 so we aren't forced to ship via Dublin which would add another 3 hours to the Cherbourg sailing.

Then you have the problem of no ferries. They can't be built overnight. I presume there aren't that many seaworthy ferries lying around idle in the world.

jm08

Hollyhead are saying that it is going to create kaos for them with how it works with Ireland. According to him, all the ferries come in at the same time very early in the morning with fresh food for the UK market. The queue to clear customs would be 7km and they don't have the space and of course every minute counts with fresh food.

First Up

murphaph wrote:

It's much quicker to ship via the land bridge for most markets. The ferry takes like 24 hours from Rosslare to Cherbourg (IIRC, it's a long time since I was on it). The slow ferry to Holyhead is three hours. The slow ferries across the English channel (or la Manche as it shall be known after Brexit lol) take an hour or so, so you need to be taking 20 hrs+ to get down to Dover to be slower than taking the "direct" ferry.

Rosslare - Cherbourg is about 18 hours. The landbridge uses a lot of fuel and if you add customs procedures entering the UK and again entering France, it doesn't look all that attractive. Even sealed containers will have to be queued and processed.

Many of the trucks using the landbridge do drop offs and pick ups in the UK en route. That traffic may continue but I would expect many trucks going to the continent to switch to Ireland-France.

knipex

murphaph wrote: »

It's much quicker to ship via the land bridge for most markets. The ferry takes like 24 hours from Rosslare to Cherbourg (IIRC, it's a long time since I was on it). The slow ferry to Holyhead is three hours. The slow ferries across the English channel (or la Manche as it shall be known after Brexit lol) take an hour or so, so you need to be taking 20 hrs+ to get down to Dover to be slower than taking the "direct" ferry.

Our ports don't have the capacity for the customs checks required once the UK leaves the customs union. Trade has massively increased since 1993.

If we are forced to ship much more product direct to avoid UK customs delays (and French/Irish ones on the other side) then we need to massively expand Rosslare and finish the motorway to it (and possibly upgrade the N24 and N25 so we aren't forced to ship via Dublin which would add another 3 hours to the Cherbourg sailing.

Then you have the problem of no ferries. They can't be built overnight. I presume there aren't that many seaworthy ferries lying around idle in the world.

The volume of shipping isn't going to increase overnight. Just the destinations so that impact on the ports will be minimal.

The ferry's on the Irish sea route will be quieter and there will be new routers (and existing routes will be expanded) to continental Europe.

Customs will increase yes but traffic to the UK will fall off a cliff.

BUT all this assumes the UK walks away for the customs union which may or may not happen and they are already talking about interm measures.

The problem is no shipping or ferry company is going to invest hundreds of millions buying ferries and selling older ferries until the have reasonable certainty on that is going to happen..

The problem is the uncertainty. The UK is in, its out, its half in, its fully out, hard exit, soft exit, red-line issues are negotiable, they aren't negotiable.

Its a f**king mess and the UK are their own worst enemies..

The airlines are in serious trouble ?
All the investment in inter-connectors and north south single electricity network. What happens all that when the UK leaves the customs union ??
Irish student is UK universities, UK students in Irish universities.
UK manufacturing is in trouble... All this talk about BMW Mini is a smokescreen and the Nissan investment ?? None knows the deal done with the government.

The pound is falling inflation is rising, wage growth is virtually non existent.. Investment is stalling..

murphaph

I'd still say the biggest problem will be sourcing ferries (all assuming they exit the CU). 18 hours is 6 times longer than the Holyhead crossing. You'd need 3 times as many ferries just to maintain the same capacity if it all went to France. Obviously a good chunk of it is actually going to the UK BUT as mentioned, many part loads will now be split into 2 loads. One to UK and one to EU.

blanch152

murphaph wrote: »

I'd still say the biggest problem will be sourcing ferries (all assuming they exit the CU). 18 hours is 6 times longer than the Holyhead crossing. You'd need 3 times as many ferries just to maintain the same capacity if it all went to France. Obviously a good chunk of it is actually going to the UK BUT as mentioned, many part loads will now be split into 2 loads. One to UK and one to EU.

Depending on the queues at Dover, there may well be a demand.

There is no doubt that there will be problems at Calais and delays. Ireland will suffer because of it, especially if those delays are repeated at Holyhead.

My fear is that we won't get seamless free travel between here and the UK like we are used to, but that we also will remain outside of Schengen and have the worst of all worlds.

On a different note, I see that the UK have categorically ruled out the crazy notion of a hard border on the Irish Sea as put forward earlier in this thread.

knipex

blanch152 wrote: »

Depending on the queues at Dover, there may well be a demand.

There is no doubt that there will be problems at Calais and delays. Ireland will suffer because of it, especially if those delays are repeated at Holyhead.

My fear is that we won't get seamless free travel between here and the UK like we are used to, but that we also will remain outside of Schengen and have the worst of all worlds.

On a different note, I see that the UK have categorically ruled out the crazy notion of a hard border on the Irish Sea as put forward earlier in this thread.

sorry.. It was put forward by our minister for foreign affairs Minister Covney

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/move-border-to-irish-sea-after-brexit-says-coveney-tgn999l8v



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ireland-demand-sea-border-with-uk-brexit-leo-varadkar-a7863986.html

FrancieBrady

I would think the dithering and half formed, fantasy solutions from the UK means everything is still on the table.

kniggit

knipex wrote: »

...
The airlines are in serious trouble ?
..

The British ones could lose the right to fly between any pair of EU airports.
Aer Lingus' ownership might make them British for such purposes.

knipex wrote: »

...
All the investment in inter-connectors and north south single electricity network.
...

This one should be OK. Some of the Baltic member states are still integrated into Russia's electricity network, so there's a useful precedent.

knipex

kniggit wrote: »

The British ones could lose the right to fly between any pair of EU airports.
Unfortunately for us, Aer Lingus' ownership makes them British for this purpose.

Not so sure about that...

IAG's registered office is in Madrid.. Its Anglo Spanish..

Its flights into and out of British airports to and from Europe that will be affected.. Which will have a huge impact on Aerlingus..

Heathrow as a major hub could be finished..

kniggit wrote: »

This one should be OK. Some of the Baltic member states are still integrated into Russia's electricity network, so there's a useful precedent.

Any idea of the tariffs etc that apply ?

For the Irish Punter

The vast majority of online shopping is through UK sites.. Amazon.co.uk.. etc etc..

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I would think the dithering and half formed, fantasy solutions from the UK means everything is still on the table.

A load of wishful thinking with no substance. I wonder if the CON's had to run their wishes by the DUP before they were released to the public. I hope the CON's/DUP alliance lasts until the next UK election so they can bear sole responsibility for the mess they've created.

kniggit

knipex wrote: »

Not so sure about that...

IAG's registered office is in Madrid.. Its Anglo Spanish..
..

Ownership for the purpose of airline treaties is determined by shareholder nationalities, not office locations.
IAG might be able to find a diplomatic or financial solution, but as things stand, no part of the group would qualify as an EU airline.

solodeogloria

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A load of wishful thinking with no substance. I wonder if the CON's had to run their wishes by the DUP before they were released to the public. I hope the CON's/DUP alliance lasts until the next UK election so they can bear sole responsibility for the mess they've created.

Good evening!

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

For the record. I think the British are prioritising the current status of the border and are willing to compromise heavily to ensure that it works. That should be praised.

They obviously can't ignore the concerns of the voters in the referendum but discussion of transitional customs terms and waivers is the right type of language. As is the talk of no passport control and maintaining the CTA.

It is Britain's job to negotiate for it's citizens and for Irish citizens living in the UK. It isn't Britain's job to play Nostradamus as to what the EU will accept. Britain also isn't accountable for what the EU will or won't accept. It is accountable for how it represents its citizens.

Britain's job is to be ambitious and to negotiate it's corner. For the record. If anything, given that Britain is willing to make compromises of this scale, I think Ireland should be a lot more supportive.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

kniggit

knipex wrote: »

...
Any idea of the tariffs etc that apply ?
...

Electricity is product code 2716 in the EU's Taric database.
No customs tariffs apply when importing it.

Junkyard Tom

solodeogloria wrote: »

I think the British are prioritising the current status of the border and are willing to compromise heavily to ensure that it works.

Compromise how and with who? The British are leaving the EU the EU isn't leaving Britain.

They obviously can't ignore the concerns of the voters in the referendum

Neither can they ignore that the majority of voters in the northeast of Ireland voted to remain.

discussion of transitional customs terms and waivers is the right type of language. As is the talk of no passport control and maintaining the CTA

At the moment it's nothing but waffle and depends on Britain getting its bespoke no-friction customs/trade agreement (having their cake and eat it, pie in the sky). Waffle, cakes and pies - the UK's current position.

It is Britain's job to negotiate for it's citizens and for Irish citizens living in the UK.

It's Ireland's job to look after interests of the Irish in Ireland including those on the other side of the border as Simon Coveney has just said on BBC NI News.

It isn't Britain's job to play Nostradamus as to what the EU will accept. Britain also isn't accountable for what the EU will or won't accept. It is accountable for how it represents it's citizens.

Britain is leaving the EU, it isn't being kicked out so, when it comes to the GFA and the contested region it's the British who need to be flexible with Ireland, the Irish people, and the EU.

I think Ireland should be a lot more supportive

Ireland knows it would be foolish to collude with the British on this absolute mess. One of the benefits of joining the EU was that Ireland could reduce its dependence on exporting to Britain and resulting diminution of British political influence over us which never served our interests.

I believe the Irish government will be all too aware that Ireland's future well-being is much better served by strengthening alliances with our EU partners rather than acting as some sort of proxy for the British.

jm08

knipex wrote: »

Not so sure about that...

IAG's registered office is in Madrid.. Its Anglo Spanish..

Its flights into and out of British airports to and from Europe that will be affected.. Which will have a huge impact on Aerlingus..

Heathrow as a major hub could be finished..

Any idea of the tariffs etc that apply ?

I don't fully understand it, but there is something about EU airlines being required to have 50% EU national ownership. RyanAir is in the process of buying back shares to fulfill that requirement. AIG may need to do something similar (i.e., up the Spanish stake share in the airline).

For the Irish Punter

The vast majority of online shopping is through UK sites.. Amazon.co.uk.. etc etc..

Check out amazon.de (they have an English version).

solodeogloria

Good evening!

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Compromise how and with who? The British are leaving the EU the EU isn't leaving Britain.

They are conceding a lot to provide a good solution that keeps the border open. That wasn't a given. They have chosen to put it above other priorities. I would argue that they are conceding a lot because they value the a Good Friday Agreement and the new relationship with Ireland.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Neither can they ignore that the majority of voters in the northeast of Ireland voted to remain.

It's called Northern Ireland. It's a part of the United Kingdom and the Brexit negotiations are about the whole United Kingdom. The UK Government has shown that it values an open border and it has listened to the concerns of the people of Northern Ireland.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

At the moment it's nothing but waffle and depends on Britain getting its bespoke no-friction customs/trade agreement (having their cake and eat it, pie in the sky). Waffle, cakes and pies - the UK's current position.

At this point Britain highlights it's interests and the European Union can respond and a conclusion can come about. The UK is solidly behind the open border. That's important.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's Ireland's job to look after interests of the Irish in Ireland including those on the other side of the border as Simon Coveney has just said on BBC NI News.

Obviously. But Britain is putting forward an open border and it's willing to go a long way to ensure that.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Britain is leaving the EU, it isn't being kicked out so, when it comes to the GFA and the contested region it's the British who need to be flexible with Ireland, the Irish people, and the EU.

And today - it has committed itself to the CTA and an open border.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ireland knows it would be foolish to collude with the British on this absolute mess. One of the benefits of joining the EU was that Ireland could reduce its dependence on exporting to Britain and resulting diminution of British political influence over us which never served our interests.

I believe the Irish government will be all too aware that Ireland's future well-being is much better served by strengthening alliances with our EU partners rather than acting as some sort of proxy for the British.

Does it "know" this? I think the British have a much better understanding of Northern Ireland and the border as part of the United Kingdom than the EU do.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

kniggit

jm08 wrote: »

I don't fully understand it, but there is something about EU airlines being required to have 50% EU national ownership. RyanAir is in the process of buying back shares to fulfill that requirement. AIG may need to do something similar (i.e., up the Spanish stake share in the airline).
...

In that event, British Airways would cease to be a British airline for these purposes, and would lose the right to fly between Heathrow and the US, unless Washington grants the UK a Free Skies treaty.
If the British think Europeans are taking advantage of their weakness, they're really not going to enjoy dealing with America's protectionist airline lobby.

Junkyard Tom

solodeogloria wrote: »

They are conceding a lot... I would argue that they are conceding a lot .. Britain is putting forward an open border and it's willing to go a long way to ensure that ... it has committed itself to the CTA and an open border.

1. What concessions has Britain made?

2. To whom have these concession been made?

It's a part of the United Kingdom and the Brexit negotiations are about the whole United Kingdom.

It's is currently under UK jurisdiction subject to change as laid out in the GFA.

The UK Government has shown that it values an open border ... The UK is solidly behind the open border

The British know that a hard physical border is essentially unworkable and that their involvement in Ireland has been an ongoing and very costly endeavour. Unionists understand that a hard border has the potential to make the north an even more failed political and economic project.

and it has listened to the concerns of the people of Northern Ireland.

Has it? Or has it listened to the DUP who care more about chaining the north to HMS Britannia cliff-edge Brexit bedamned.

At this point Britain highlights it's interests and the European Union can respond and a conclusion can come about. That's important.

Britain's interests aren't axiomatically Ireland's interests and certainly not those of Irish nationalists in the six counties - testament to the latter point the recent Westminster elections returned nationalist abstentionist MP's.

Does it "know" this? I think the British have a much better understanding of Northern Ireland and the border as part of the United Kingdom than the EU do.

Nobody understands the border more than the people who had to put up with it in the counties on either side of it. The British understand that a border in Ireland is a hornets nest that is better left unkicked.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

Let me try understand your position for a moment.

The UK offer an open border which is the status quo and document some suggestions for how to maintain that.

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

It seems like you're projecting the United Ireland issue into how Brexit gets handled. That's fair enough but they are both different issues. A hard border would almost serve you better in this regard. It's just a shame the UK aren't asking for one.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

swampgas

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Let me try understand your position for a moment.

The UK offer an open border which is the status quo and document some suggestions for how to maintain that.

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

It seems like you're projecting the United Ireland issue into how Brexit gets handled. That's fair enough but they are both different issues. A hard border would almost serve you better in this regard. It's just a shame the UK aren't asking for one.

Here's the thing; the UK are proposing two contradictory things at once: to preserve the border status quo, and for the UK (including NI) to leave the customs union.

That's an ambitious aspiration, to put it mildly. Unfortunately it hasn't been matched with any remotely practical proposals for how this might be achieved.

I don't care how much they "want" an open border, I want to hear them explain how the hell they think it can be achieved.

Maybe their idea of a technical solution is some sort of Schrodinger's Wall ...

FrancieBrady

Jeffery Donaldson reckons that 'they (Irish government) are partners in this endeavor'.

No Jeffery, we are not partners. We are forced to take part in your suicide mission.

Jim2007

solodeogloria wrote: »

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

Read what is actually in the document not what you'd like to think and pass off here. In particular note the UK government is expecting exceptions for small to medium companies, so they would no longer need to be subject quality controls etc...

Just the usual BS from the Brits, we what everything and then some.

Junkyard Tom

solodeogloria wrote: »

The UK offer an open border which is the status quo

If I have a cake and you say 'you keep the cake' then what have you offered me?

and document some suggestions for how to maintain that.

No they haven't, but don't listen to me..

On trade, 99% of our manufacturing firms are SME’s, less than 250 employees, so the proposal to exempt these firms from all customs responsibilities is welcome. However, we’ve been given no idea how that could work, what costs there would be, how it’s monitored or enforced or indeed if it is acceptable. Essentially it means that NI firms would be within the Customs Union whilst also being outside of the Customs Union as part of the UK. Is that possible or acceptable?

manufacturingni.org/statement

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

I criticise the British government for engaging in magical thinking. As the piece I've linked to says if SME's in the north remain exempt from tariffs/inspection in both directions then what's to stop hundreds of thousands of them relocating to this free-trade anomaly in the north to get around regulations? Do you think the EU will be okay with that? It's daft.

It seems like you're projecting the United Ireland issue into how Brexit gets handled. That's fair enough but they are both different issues. A hard border would almost serve you better in this regard. It's just a shame the UK aren't asking for one.

Oh I'd say republican dissidents would be delighted with a hard border and resulting deeply damaged northern economy. I do want a UI but my primary concern is for the stability of this island and well-being of those that live here. Everything was okay until that spat within the Conservative party got out of control.

Jim2007

solodeogloria wrote: »

Britain's job is to be ambitious and to negotiate it's corner. For the record. If anything, given that Britain is willing to make compromises of this scale, I think Ireland should be a lot more supportive.

Talk about going native! The UK has not moved an inch from want all the benefits and then some - note the expectation for small to medium sized firms slipped into their latest effort!

As for Ireland, the UK represents 14%, about the same as Belgium! We are not about to back up this madness on that basis.

Leonard Hofstadter

solodeogloria wrote: »

Britain's job is to be ambitious and to negotiate it's corner. For the record. If anything, given that Britain is willing to make compromises of this scale, I think Ireland should be a lot more supportive.

While of course they are welcome announcements today, they're not really that big a move on are they. Everyone has said and everyone has agreed that there should be no return to the borders of the past.

The fact that this is now official Government policy (for now anyway) is of course good news along with the retention of the CTA (though how they were going to do otherwise in light of the Good Friday Agreement not to mention the fact that anyone born in NI will still be entitled to Irish and hence EU citizenship no matter what happens).

If anything, we are getting to have our cake and eat it to a certain extent, because we will still all have the benefits of EU membership plus free movement into Britain (I presume we will allow the reverse for UK citizens, as we will still be allowed to do whatever we please with EU third countries as far as I know).

The problem with today's announcement is that there is no way it can work short of the UK staying in the customs union, or at a stretch, being able to conduct its own free trade agreements but then having to make sure that any imports to the UK conform to EU standards (which is hardly fitting with the 'take back control' narrative now, is it).

Why would the EU allow the UK to have its own 'customs union' with the EU27 while at the same time the UK can have its own trade deals with the rest of the world. It's just bonkers to even think the EU will allow it. Sure if that was the case what are the 27 remaining states doing when we could have a pick and mix approach; a free trade agreement with the other EU countries (plus the 50 odd other third countries) and free trade agreements with whoever else we fancy. It just simply wouldn't work, for example suppose Ireland negotiates its own FTA with the US, there will presumably the some sort of legal requirements as to its duration and what can and cannot be freely traded, then suddenly the EU comes along and does a deal, because we're part of the EU (and hence customs union) we must go along with the EU-US deal instead but where does that leave Ireland in terms of its legal and international obligations?

And as for Britain's job being to negotiate its own corner, well of course it's their job, and I hope they can get the best possible deal - like you I depend on the UK to put food on the table so I don't want a bad deal. The problem is, as so many others have so eloquently explained, they are going out of their way NOT to get a good deal, they are doing their best to antagonise the EU27 (who are their biggest trading partner), they are deluded beyond belief as to the levels of power and influence they have globally (certainly in Europe their standing has been completely eroded and the goodwill is gone), their negotiating hand is nowhere near as strong as you make it out to be (after all, as others have said, free trade agreements do not cover the most important part of the UK's economy - services, i.e. the City) so it's time they started orbiting back into planet Earth and showed some degree of pragmatism and actually try to achieve a sensible and smooth withdrawal and a positive relationship going into the future, which is what you want (and indeed what all of us should want).

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Neither can they ignore that the majority of voters in the northeast of Ireland voted to remain.



.

This remains one of the strangest arguments of the lot.

http://www.thejournal.ie/roscommon-south-leitrim-voted-no-why-2121899-May2015/

If we were to follow that kind of logic, there would be no same-sex marriage in Roscommon/South Leitrim.

blanch152

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Let me try understand your position for a moment.

The UK offer an open border which is the status quo and document some suggestions for how to maintain that.

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

It seems like you're projecting the United Ireland issue into how Brexit gets handled. That's fair enough but they are both different issues. A hard border would almost serve you better in this regard. It's just a shame the UK aren't asking for one.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The UK have decided to leave the EU which is not the status quo.

If one side changes things, they can't say that everything should remain the same.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

If we were to follow that kind of logic, there would be no same-sex marriage in Roscommon/South Leitrim.

Apples and Oranges.

murphaph

I didn't see any concrete proposals in the UK position paper released today.

More aspirational stuff but no nuts and bolts.

Fratton Fred

kniggit wrote: »

In that event, British Airways would cease to be a British airline for these purposes, and would lose the right to fly between Heathrow and the US, unless Washington grants the UK a Free Skies treaty.
If the British think Europeans are taking advantage of their weakness, they're really not going to enjoy dealing with America's protectionist airline lobby.

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

steddyeddy

murphaph wrote: »

I didn't see any concrete proposals in the UK position paper released today.

More aspirational stuff but no nuts and bolts.

It's unworkable according to the Financial Times. The only way to avoid a hard border is for the UK to stay in the customs union.

FrancieBrady

murphaph wrote: »

I didn't see any concrete proposals in the UK position paper released today.

More aspirational stuff but no nuts and bolts.

Could it even be called a negotiating position? There is nowhere to negotiate to.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Apples and Oranges.

In what way?

The UK votes for Brexit but some parts of it don't and it is proposed that they should have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Ireland votes for same-sex marriage but Roscommon-Leitrim doen't so why can't it have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Either the democratic decision applies to all or it doesn't?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way?

The UK votes for Brexit but some parts of it don't and it is proposed that they should have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Ireland votes for same-sex marriage but Roscommon-Leitrim doen't so why can't it have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Either the democratic decision applies to all or it doesn't?

Roscommon-Leitrim is not a territory in the hiatus of a joint government agreement on governing it.

Jim2007

If anything, we are getting to have our cake and eat it to a certain extent, because we will still all have the benefits of EU membership plus free movement into Britain (I presume we will allow the reverse for UK citizens, as we will still be allowed to do whatever we please with EU third countries as far as I know).

The CTA etc was specifically allowed under a protocol under the treaties as being a treaty between two EU states. As with everything else that dies with A50. A future agreement will be with the EU as is required in the case of treaties with third countries.

As the EU negotiators pointed out, there first must be a political discussion on the border etc.. as part of the exit agreement. How to implement a trade agreement is a separate issue.

kniggit

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

They could fly from their home (the US) to Britain, just as BA could fly from their home (the EU27) to the US.
But, under the usual rules of air transport, US airlines aren't allowed to fly into the EU from a non-home country, such as Mexico, and BA wouldn't be allowed to fly from Britain to the US.

The US will be willing to negotiate a change in the rules for Britain, but they'll extract a heavy price.

Peregrinus

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

Let me try understand your position for a moment.

The UK offer an open border which is the status quo and document some suggestions for how to maintain that.

That is what the Irish Government want. That is what the UK wants. It seems to be what you want, but yet you criticise the British government for their views?

It seems like you're projecting the United Ireland issue into how Brexit gets handled. That's fair enough but they are both different issues. A hard border would almost serve you better in this regard. It's just a shame the UK aren't asking for one.

The problem iwith the UK statement is not what they're saying. It's what they're not saying. The British paper is full of lovely aspirational stuff about being creative and flexible, but what's competely missing is any section which makes a serious attempt to explain how this is going to be viable and practical if the UK leaves the customs union and negotiates its own trade deals. If the UK agree with some third country to admit goods which are not admitted to the EU, what is to stop those goods from being shipped into the EU across the Irish border?

There's a growing view that the British stance of saying that they want an open border is just an attempt to position themselves in the blame game that will ensue when, as a direct consequence of May's decision to leave the customs union, an intrusive border is created. They have no expectation that there will be an open border; they are merely trying to create a colorable basis for claiming that an intrusive border is not their fault.

If the UK wants its aspiration for an open border to be taken seriously, its not enough to say that they want an open border. They need to be prepared to make trade, customs, etc decisions which will make an open border viable and practical. As yet, we're not really seeing much evidence of that.

Peregrinus

blanch152 wrote: »

In what way?

The UK votes for Brexit but some parts of it don't and it is proposed that they should have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Ireland votes for same-sex marriage but Roscommon-Leitrim doen't so why can't it have the ability to opt out of the national decision.

Either the democratic decision applies to all or it doesn't?

Not at all; it's perfectly possible for part of a country to be in the EU and part not. That's already the case with Denmark, where Denmark proper and the Faroe Islands are in the EU, but Greenland is not. If the UK wanted to negotiate an arrangement whereby England and Wales left the Union while Scotland and Northern Ireland remained within it, there's no fundamental reason why that wouldn't be possible.

The decision that there would be a single decision applying to the whole of the UK was taken at Westminster. That was a choice; it didn't have to be that way. Given the demographics, it amounts to a decision that, whatever England wants, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will have to like it or lump it.

knipex

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

Bingo

As I said, unless something major happens soon Heathrow as a hob is over..

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Which would also mean Delta, US,American etc can't fly to Heathrow

I think the likely outcome is that AIG would split into two companies, one with a majority of UK shareholders containing BA, and the other with a majority of EU shareholders, containing the EU airlines.

oscarBravo

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/16/uk-government-border-proposals-ireland-brexit-position-paper

Fintan O'Toole nails it in a Guardian op-ed:

Sweet nothings are lovely while they’re being whispered in your ear. The problem is that a sweet nothing is still nothing. The British government’s long-awaited position paper on the Irish border after Brexit is really rather lovely. It tells Irish people of all political persuasions exactly what they want to hear: that there will be no physical border of any kind across the island and that free movement will go on as if nothing had happened. But behind all of these delightful reassurances, there is sweet FA.

[...]

...imagine you are in a decent job. It is reasonably paid, apparently secure and the working environment is quite amicable. Your neighbour, who you like but do not quite trust (there’s a bit of history there) comes to you with a proposition. She’s establishing an extremely risky start-up venture with a high probability of catastrophic failure. Will you join her? Well, you ask, what are the possible rewards? Ah, she says, if – against the odds – everything goes splendidly, you’ll get the same pay and conditions you have now.

Bishopsback

oscarBravo wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/16/uk-government-border-proposals-ireland-brexit-position-paper

Fintan O'Toole nails it in a Guardian op-ed:

+ the fact of waylaying the blame on to Europe or the Irish govt if a hard border is the result of Brexit.

knipex

Bishopsback wrote: »

+ the fact of waylaying the blame on to Europe or the Irish govt if a hard border is the result of Brexit.

The conservatives have been blaming Europe for over 40 years, why change the habit now.. ??

paul2013

I know that this might stupid to start with, as a lot of households in the ROI receive free to air channels from the UK via a dish, does that mean we will not receive them post BREXIT? and Does it also mean that Post BREXIT that our phones will go roaming and rob us blind for crossing the invisible line?

First Up

paul2013 wrote: »

I know that this might stupid to start with, as a lot of households in the ROI receive free to air channels from the UK via a dish, does that mean we will not receive them post BREXIT? and Does it also mean that Post BREXIT that our phones will go roaming and rob us blind for crossing the invisible line?

Why would it?  You get the signal through a dish from a satellite.
Your phone will tell you what network you are on.  Same as it does now.

murphaph

First Up wrote: »

Your phone will tell you what network you are on.  Same as it does now.

Roaming charges were completely abolished on the 15th of June, even for mobile data. Since then you could switch on data roaming as long as you stay in the EU and you'd have no worries (except on ferries that relay the mobile signal, where it can get very expensive) You can essentially use your EU phone in any EU country as if you were at home now, without buying data packs etc.

When the UK leaves it'll be right back to the bad old days with roaming charges for calls and SMS, never mind extortionate data rates. The Daily Express mob will no doubt blame this on the EU trying to prevent the plucky Brits from holidaying.

paul2013

What I'm trying to say is, I was at the Giants Causeway on Tuesday and I picked up a 3 Ireland signal and then when arrived back at the visitor centre it was O2 UK, it kept jumping from one network to the next when arrived in Co. Derry.

Why is it being called Londonderry anyway like what's been scrawled across sign posts? I thought I was in the mainland UK when I kept seeing "Londonderry" and then cross into the Republic and it was Derry.

As I was flagged down by a tourist seeking Martin McGuinesses grave in Bundoran and he was looking for Londonderry and I told him he was on the wrong island if he's looking for Londonderry and I said its called Derry.