Irish Border and Brexit

knipex

paul2013 wrote: »

Why is it being called Londonderry anyway like what's been scrawled across sign posts?

Because that is the official name of the city..

paul2013 wrote: »

I thought I was in the mainland UK when I kept seeing "Londonderry"

I wasn't aware there was a Londonderry on Great Britain ? (I assume by mainland UK you mean Great Britain ? The UK is after all the United Kingdom on Great Britain and Northern Ireland so if you remove Northern Ireland you are left with Great Britain )

paul2013 wrote: »

As I was flagged down by a tourist seeking Martin McGuinesses grave in Bundoran and he was looking for Londonderry and I told him he was on the wrong island if he's looking for Londonderry and I said its called Derry.

You were wrong so weren't you ??




Derry is the county and officially the city is Londonderry.

However int eh nationalist community its commonly known ad Derry while the unionist community tend to prefer Londonderry.

Either or really but denying the existence of anyplace called Londonderry or claiming it makes you think you are on the "Mainland UK" ... Well .....

As or the phones. To my knowledge no roaming charges between Ireland and the UK was in existence for years before the EU decision but in saying that teh exit of the UK from the EU could indeed change that..

I remember before there was free roaming in the UK.. There is a setting on your phone that turns off roaming.. You can also manually lock your phone to a network... worked back then so I am pretty sure it will work now..

oscarBravo

Ugh. Can we please not have the stupid [London]Derry argument for the billionth time?

Irishweather

paul2013 wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is, I was at the Giants Causeway on Tuesday and I picked up a 3 Ireland signal and then when arrived back at the visitor centre it was O2 UK, it kept jumping from one network to the next when arrived in Co. Derry.

Why is it being called Londonderry anyway like what's been scrawled across sign posts? I thought I was in the mainland UK when I kept seeing "Londonderry" and then cross into the Republic and it was Derry.

As I was flagged down by a tourist seeking Martin McGuinesses grave in Bundoran and he was looking for Londonderry and I told him he was on the wrong island if he's looking for Londonderry and I said its called Derry.

I live in County Londonderry, the official name is County Londonderry and Londonderry. It doesn't matter what the Republic recognises, Derry is not in ROI, it is in NI, which is in the UK so it is part of the UK government who decides what it is called. (County Coleraine was original name)

With the Roaming, yes you picked up O2 Ireland from across the sea in Inishowen, big deal, go inland to Coleraine or Ballymoney and you'll never pick it up. I should mention you can pick up BBC Radio Scotland from the North Coast alongside a few other Scottish Radio stations, so the fact that you picked up o2 Ireland means nothing.

As a resident, I can say with experience, that I only pick up Irish networks right on the border or on the NW Coast.

Irishweather

knipex wrote: »

Because that is the official name of the city..



I wasn't aware there was a Londonderry on Great Britain ? (I assume by mainland UK you mean Great Britain ? The UK is after all the United Kingdom on Great Britain and Northern Ireland so if you remove Northern Ireland you are left with Great Britain )





You were wrong so weren't you ??




Derry is the county and officially the city is Londonderry.

However int eh nationalist community its commonly known ad Derry while the unionist community tend to prefer Londonderry.

Either or really but denying the existence of anyplace called Londonderry or claiming it makes you think you are on the "Mainland UK" ... Well .....

As or the phones. To my knowledge no roaming charges between Ireland and the UK was in existence for years before the EU decision but in saying that teh exit of the UK from the EU could indeed change that..

I remember before there was free roaming in the UK.. There is a setting on your phone that turns off roaming.. You can also manually lock your phone to a network... worked back then so I am pretty sure it will work now..

No, Londonderry is the County. There is no such thing as County Derry, it was County Coleraine prior to the name change and change in land area.

Most people in the county refer to the city as Derry, your assertion about Unionists is not accurate.

Samaris

In the interests of not kicking off riots about something as petty as whether to call it Londonderry or Derry, both names tend to be pretty well accepted afaik.

Irishweather

Yes, but the official name is Londonderry, and there never was a County Derry.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ugh. Can we please not have the stupid [London]Derry argument for the billionth time?

Question asked, question answered.

Capt'n Midnight

paul2013 wrote: »

I know that this might stupid to start with, as a lot of households in the ROI receive free to air channels from the UK via a dish, does that mean we will not receive them post BREXIT? and Does it also mean that Post BREXIT that our phones will go roaming and rob us blind for crossing the invisible line?

The only reason UK channels are Free To Air is that it's cheaper to pay the rights holders for the overspill to us than it is to encrypt the signals using the Free To View cards with the SKY boxes like the old days.


SaorSat uses a satellite with a tighter beam on a different band so not so much over spill and you'd need a new LNB to receive it and even then some programs like Reeling in the Years on RTE +1 are blocked.


Then again the GFA allows all island broadcasting

Chester Copperpot

Irishweather wrote: »

Yes, but the official name is Londonderry, and there never was a County Derry.

Daire... Thought you might call it coontie Lunnonderrie though

Irishweather

Why would I do that? Are you trolling?

Chips Lovell

The topic of this thread isn't Derry/Londonderry. It's Brexit's impact on the border. Back on topic please.

Sam Russell

If there is a hard border, surely there is the alternative for fresh goods going from Ireland to the EU to use air freight. Some regional airports, like Cork, Waterford, Shannon, might be able to offer more capacity than Dublin. Also the single market would mean no customs so no delay.

Heavy and non-urgent goods might well go by sea to France or to other ports in Europe, but shipping perishable goods via the UK would become impossible if the expected delays become actual delays.

Water John

I would presume new ferry routes from Dublin, Wexford and Cork to Europe would open up. Bypass the UK.

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

I would presume new ferry routes from Dublin, Wexford and Cork to Europe would open up. Bypass the UK.

Athlone to Paris is given as 14 hrs 21 min by Google. Going by Rosslare Cherbourg ferry it comes out as 36 hrs, that is nearly an extra 24 hrs going that way. I would imagine customs going the land-bridge route might also add about the same but totally random amounts of time.

The benefit of the Rosslare Cherbourg route might be driver rest times - 3 hours Athlone to Rosslare and 4 hrs Cherbourg to Paris. Maybe three or four extra ferries might be enough, or two ginormous ones.

Airfreight for Cork to Paris would be a few hours transit, plus handling at the airports. Cost of this might be a problem, but a new airline - RyanFreight might make all the difference.:)

Water John

I presume hauliers would develop bases in Europe. Then driver takes trailer to Rosslare and picks up incoming trailer.
Export trailer buggied on and off. Tractor and driver picks up in Europe.
Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

I presume hauliers would develop bases in Europe. Then driver takes trailer to Rosslare and picks up incoming trailer.
Export trailer buggied on and off. Tractor and driver picks up in Europe.
Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

I was thinking the same that driver need not travel the sea part. It would mitigate the extra cost of the longer sea journey, plus the reduced fuel use would be another saving.

Looking at the logistics of it, it has some advantages, plus it would be straightforward for the EU to do some subsidy for the ferry route, given the special circumstances.

jm08

Just reading elsewhere that 6,000 live cattle are being shipped to Turkey in the next few days from the ports of Foynes & Waterford.

It seems Turkey is a big market for Irish beef exports - since Sept. 2016 - 31,000 cattle have been shipped to Turkey.

If they can get their head around those logistics, they will manage to get containers to France without crossing through Wales & England.

First Up

jm08 wrote: »

Just reading elsewhere that 6,000 live cattle are being shipped to Turkey in the next few days from the ports of Foynes & Waterford.

It seems Turkey is a big market for Irish beef exports - since Sept. 2016 - 31,000 cattle have been shipped to Turkey.

If they can get their head around those logistics, they will manage to get containers to France without crossing through Wales & England.

That's a different business.  A chartered vessel bringing a single cargo to a single port is very different to commercial freight operations delivering different items to different customers in different places.

Jim2007

Water John wrote: »

Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

Driver and tractor are often independent contractors... and drivers are often held responsible for everything from pick point to deliver point, so business practices would need adjusting.

Water John

Its done already between here and the UK. Transport co has depots in both countries.

Nomis21

Jim2007 wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

Total waste having tractor and driver on board ferry, esp on such a longer haul.

Driver and tractor are often independent contractors... and drivers are often held responsible for everything from pick point to deliver point, so business practices would need adjusting.

Goods passing from Ireland to other EU contrives via UK will not be subject to UK customs. Trucks will be sealed in Ireland and travel under TIR. Seal will be broken on arrival in EU destination by relevant customs authority.

Sam Russell

Nomis21 wrote: »

Goods passing from Ireland to other EU contrives via UK will not be subject to UK customs. Trucks will be sealed in Ireland and travel under TIR. Seal will be broken on arrival in EU destination by relevant customs authority.

Which would be fine if they can jump all the queues of trucks waiting for customs clearance. Remember all the lorries queuing from Dover for twenty miles or so recently?

If there is no problem with custom clearance in Calais, then maybe landbridge might be OK, but I think if the Cherbourg direct route works reliably then that is the way the trucks will go. The fact that no tractor unit or driver needs to travel could be the persuader - lower fuel cost and lower wages would be quite persuasive, providing the savings are not eaten up by higher ferry charges.

First Up

Nomis21 wrote:

Goods passing from Ireland to other EU contrives via UK will not be subject to UK customs. Trucks will be sealed in Ireland and travel under TIR. Seal will be broken on arrival in EU destination by relevant customs authority.

IF the entire load is going into the EU. Many trucks do drop-offs and pick-ups in the UK en route to France or Holland. That may become impractical which could reduce freight options and increase costs.

blanch152

Sam Russell wrote: »

Which would be fine if they can jump all the queues of trucks waiting for customs clearance. Remember all the lorries queuing from Dover for twenty miles or so recently?

If there is no problem with custom clearance in Calais, then maybe landbridge might be OK, but I think if the Cherbourg direct route works reliably then that is the way the trucks will go. The fact that no tractor unit or driver needs to travel could be the persuader - lower fuel cost and lower wages would be quite persuasive, providing the savings are not eaten up by higher ferry charges.

either way there will be longer delays for exports and imports whether due to customs clearance at Calais/dover/holyhead/dublin or through the longer trip through Cherbourg.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Discussion of sectarian flier moved to the GFA thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057751192

Thread title and prefix changed to clarify that this thread is only concerned with the economic consequences of Brexit vis a vis the Irish Border and matters related to the Irish/UK economies generally arising from the Brexit/Border discussions.

murphaph

Yeah the TIR thing would not help much if customs clearance takes an age at the ports along the way.

Perhaps the UK can be "persuaded" to actually create express lanes at UK ferry ports to allow Irish trucks to at least pass unhindered to the continent (does nothing for the part load side of course).

I personally believe that Ireland would become the EU's West Berlin, to be saved at all costs, should the UK try to make things difficult for Ireland.

blanch152

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah the TIR thing would not help much if customs clearance takes an age at the ports along the way.

Perhaps the UK can be "persuaded" to actually create express lanes at UK ferry ports to allow Irish trucks to at least pass unhindered to the continent (does nothing for the part load side of course).

I personally believe that Ireland would become the EU's West Berlin, to be saved at all costs, should the UK try to make things difficult for Ireland.

I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Ireland would be the modern day equivalent of West Berlin (though not quite as isolated) in the worst case scenario.

Bit cynical

blanch152 wrote: »

I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Ireland would be the modern day equivalent of West Berlin (though not quite as isolated) in the worst case scenario.

It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

kniggit

Bit cynical wrote: »

It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

More like Berlin before the wall went up;
there was a trade agreement that fell short of a single market and customs union, so legal trade was hampered by both sides' customs checks, but Berlin's geography made smuggling difficult to prevent.
An obvious difference is the lack of a single market and customs union in pre-'61 Germany was a mutual decision.

knipex

Bit cynical wrote: »

It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

HUH ????????????

Thomas__

Bit cynical wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Ireland would be the modern day equivalent of West Berlin (though not quite as isolated) in the worst case scenario.

It's going to be a bit like West Berlin but with West Berlin itself building the actual wall.

By all means, your comparison sounds more like an exaggeration and everyone talking about the former Berlin Wall should have a look at historical pictures and description about how this wall was facilitated.

I noticed yesterday that the Taoiseach was visiting some border control Station in Canada on his visit there. No compare to this Berlin Wall, but a border which appears to be a normal one in compare to all the borders which were facilitated with check points before the Schengen Agreement. It is that what one understands by the term "hard border" not that one which existed between West-Berlin and the GDR (East-Berlin) and also between the GDR and the Federal Republic of Germany before 1989/1990.

From what I have seen by historical pictures, those check points by the BA in NI during the Troubles were far from the shape of the Communist Wall errected by the GDR. But maybe, some radical loyalistic Unionists in the Norther would be "happy" to see some new border made on the pattern like those currently built along the border of Hungary. Those residing along the border on both sides of it, are rather drearing the very thought of it.

I think that a solution for the border problem along with the Brexit negotiations would be achieved if the UK govt would be in a better shape and wouldn´t be led by bunch of day dreamers who can´t take one step after another and work on one subject after another to provide and keep some order for and within the negotiation process. Instead, they come up with some new nonsense week after week and it just proves time and again, they the Brits have no clue and no plan about all of the issues and subjects this f**king Brexit brings along and it´s their own fault cos they act like stupid amateurs but not as a government that can be taken serious. Now the ECJ is the current Topic on which they already started to tell the people their fairy tales on how easy it´ll be to leave that and as usual hiding their real motives and intentions for why they are keen to work on it to quit it, or let´s say to "get rid" of it.

Edit: Maybe it´ll turn out that the border issue between NI and the Republic of Ireland will end up like in that cartoon:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/picture/2017/aug/15/steve-bell-on-the-uks-brexit-negotiations-Cartoon

But the mindset of the UK Brexit (govt) cabinet members themselves is best depicted here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/jul/27/steve-bell-on-where-the-uk-stands-with-brexit-Cartoon

murphaph

Folks I wasn't talking about the Berlin wall at all. I was referring to the Berlin Airlift. If Ireland's access to the continent for goods is reduced by Brexit, I would expect the rest of the EU to pitch in and directly subsidise freight movements bypassing the UK. Ireland's prosperity inside the EU will become a talisman, as West Berlin was for the western Allies.

First Up

murphaph wrote: »

Folks I wasn't talking about the Berlin wall at all. I was referring to the Berlin Airlift. If Ireland's access to the continent for goods is reduced by Brexit, I would expect the rest of the EU to pitch in and directly subsidise freight movements bypassing the UK. Ireland's prosperity inside the EU will become a talisman, as West Berlin was for the western Allies.

Afraid not.  Subsidies are illegal under both EU Competition and WTO rules.

grogi

First Up wrote: »

Afraid not.  Subsidies are illegal under both EU Competition and WTO rules.

Subsidies for one particular party. Subsidies for particular service are not. For instance flights from mainland Italy to Sardegna are heavily subsidized.

Thomas__

murphaph wrote: »

Folks I wasn't talking about the Berlin wall at all. I was referring to the Berlin Airlift. If Ireland's access to the continent for goods is reduced by Brexit, I would expect the rest of the EU to pitch in and directly subsidise freight movements bypassing the UK. Ireland's prosperity inside the EU will become a talisman, as West Berlin was for the western Allies.

It´s a bit hard for me to follow your comparison cos the circumstances during the Berlin Airlift (1948 to 1949) were different to what one might anticipate from the effects of the post-Brexit years to come. But I can say one thing which that by all means, the EU should support the Republic of Ireland in all ways to save her from the negative developments GB will face. Maybe then, some diehard Unionists in NI will think again and consider for themselves whether a UI isn´t the better option for them as well. My reference in that goes more to those moderade minded, the fatalists among the Unionists can´t be helped anyway, but they are a minority still, and maybe a shrinking one too, once they realise that you can´t "eat the Union Jack".

Fratton Fred

knipex wrote: »

Bingo

As I said, unless something major happens soon Heathrow as a hob is over..

it would cost the US airlines millions to move their operations from Heathrow.

The post I was replying to implied that the US airlines would for some reason try and block BA from flying to the US from the UK, a move which would be self defeating.

What will happen, is that arrangements will be put in place to ensure the current arrangements will remain.

First Up

grogi wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Afraid not.  Subsidies are illegal under both EU Competition and WTO rules.

Subsidies for one particular party. Subsidies for particular service are not. For instance flights from mainland Italy to Sardegna are heavily subsidized.

Ireland will not be cut off from the rest of the EU.

jm08

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it would cost the US airlines millions to move their operations from Heathrow.

The post I was replying to implied that the US airlines would for some reason try and block BA from flying to the US from the UK, a move which would be self defeating.

What will happen, is that arrangements will be put in place to ensure the current arrangements will remain.

Would it cost a lot? I'd imagine the Heathrow slots are quite expensive. It might also suit the US airlines if there were fewer BA planes flying to the US.

Worth reading up on how long the difficulties, vested interests delayed Norwegian Airlines getting a licence to fly from Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/business/exclusive-norwegian-air-granted-licence-paving-way-for-first-ever-direct-routes-between-cork-and-us-35264435.html

Fratton Fred

jm08 wrote: »

Would it cost a lot? I'd imagine the Heathrow slots are quite expensive. It might also suit the US airlines if there were fewer BA planes flying to the US.

Worth reading up on how long the difficulties, vested interests delayed Norwegian Airlines getting a licence to fly from Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/business/exclusive-norwegian-air-granted-licence-paving-way-for-first-ever-direct-routes-between-cork-and-us-35264435.html

vested interests of the trade unions...

Its more than just simple point to point flights, moving away from a hub would mean trying to re align local feeder flights and longer haul connecting flights.

it would take a massive coordinated effort to make a move away from Heathrow, so the best option for the airines would be to try and keep the UK open to American airlines and vice versa

Jim2007

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it would take a massive coordinated effort to make a move away from Heathrow, so the best option for the airines would be to try and keep the UK open to American airlines and vice versa

Financial speaking airlines are basket cases and their best interest as Michael O'Leary pointed out is to knock up that competition anyway you can.

The real concern is that the external flight stuff can't be patched up at the last minute between the EU and the UK as other countries are involved as well.

Jim2007

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What will happen, is that arrangements will be put in place to ensure the current arrangements will remain.

Yes someone will talk to someone who will agree something.... only no one knows who those someones will be nor what their motivation will be.

It suits all the players, but the UK to sit back and wait, because the longer it is left the better the deal they will get. Expect to see fewer slots for British carries for a start, reduced landing fees etc...

knipex

Fratton Fred wrote: »

vested interests of the trade unions...

Its more than just simple point to point flights, moving away from a hub would mean trying to re align local feeder flights and longer haul connecting flights.

it would take a massive coordinated effort to make a move away from Heathrow, so the best option for the airines would be to try and keep the UK open to American airlines and vice versa

Its not only the US but also Europe and all the other regions that airlines currently fly out of Heathrow based on EU agreements..

All it will take to shut Heathrow as a hum is to do nothing.

The UK will take years to negotiate an open skys agreement with the US and the way they are playing things at the moment Europe.. Not sure of the agreements that are in place for Asia...

Jim2007

knipex wrote: »

The UK will take years to negotiate an open skys agreement with the US and the way they are playing things at the moment Europe.. Not sure of the agreements that are in place for Asia...

But even if they do manage to patch up an agreement for Europe, the next issue will booking UK citizens on to such flights... As it stands after BREXIT, UK citizens can't use Schengen or EU rights for visa free travel... I'd expect that the EU attitude will be - we have have a system for visa free travel it is called Schengen, please apply.....

Sam Russell

Jim2007 wrote: »

But even if they do manage to patch up an agreement for Europe, the next issue will booking UK citizens on to such flights... As it stands after BREXIT, UK citizens can't use Schengen or EU rights for visa free travel... I'd expect that the EU attitude will be - we have have a system for visa free travel it is called Schengen, please apply.....

Sounds like a No Deal might be quite messy.

No Open Skies so no flights to European destinations.
No Visas for Europe
No agreement for Roaming Charges
No Euratom for medicine use or energy
No medicine agreements
No customs agreements so long tailbacks from the tiny customs posts at Calais.

Surely no agreement, no matter how bad, could be worse than that.

It would almost be like a declaration of war. Sterling has already fallen by 25% over the last two years, and is expected to fall further.

Jim2007

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sounds like a No Deal might be quite messy.

No Open Skies so no flights to European destinations.
No Visas for Europe
No agreement for Roaming Charges
No Euratom for medicine use or energy
No medicine agreements
No customs agreements so long tailbacks from the tiny customs posts at Calais.

Surely no agreement, no matter how bad, could be worse than that.

It would almost be like a declaration of war. Sterling has already fallen by 25% over the last two years, and is expected to fall further.

You forgot about the Pet Passports :D:D:D

Sam Russell

Jim2007 wrote: »

You forgot about the Pet Passports :D:D:D

Making an exhaustive list is exhausting.

The longer the list, the more obvious the disaster No Deal will be.

knipex

Sam Russell wrote: »

Making an exhaustive list is exhausting.

The longer the list, the more obvious the disaster No Deal will be.

To everyone except the UK. I had a guy who was a soft remainer tell me this morning that there isnt a common market \ customs union and its only being talked about now to frighten the UK into staying.. He is a well educated, well travelled businessman who has 70% of his companies business outside the UK mainly the US and Europe.. Exporting UK manufactured equipment and service.

Capt'n Midnight

grogi wrote: »

Subsidies for one particular party. Subsidies for particular service are not. For instance flights from mainland Italy to Sardegna are heavily subsidized.

Subsided ? Ryanair have been flying there for years.


As others have pointed out TIR means sealed containers can be shipped through a third country without having to pay tariffs or go through customs inspections.

So no extra costs for goods between EU and here. Same for NI trucks going to GB via Dublin or Rosslare. Unless the ferries up their prices.


The problem will be that TIR trucks will be stuck in the queues at the ferryports. Wales has seen a six fold increase in traffic since the customs checks were removed. There simply isn't enough room , unless customs can be done elsewhere beforehand.

solodeogloria

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Subsided ? Ryanair have been flying there for years.


As others have pointed out TIR means sealed containers can be shipped through a third country without having to pay tariffs or go through customs inspections.

So no extra costs for goods between EU and here. Same for NI trucks going to GB via Dublin or Rosslare. Unless the ferries up their prices.


The problem will be that TIR trucks will be stuck in the queues at the ferryports. Wales has seen a six fold increase in traffic since the customs checks were removed. There simply isn't enough room , unless customs can be done elsewhere beforehand.

Good afternoon!

I'm fairly sure that trucks from Northern Ireland would go through the Scotland route or through Heysham in Lancashire from Warrenpoint which is a pretty common freight route. I'm pretty sure most would opt for this route already. There are mechanisms for getting goods out of Northern Ireland without passing through the Republic.

I'm sure that better means of customs could be discussed in the negotiation. TIR still means that Irish lorries would have to present at customs even if tariffs aren't applied. Checks would also have to take place to ensure that the container wasn't opened or that none of the goods exited into the British market before heading on to France.

If a favourable agreement on customs can be reached with the UK of course none of this would be necessary. This is also in Ireland's interests.

We should be looking for the very best arrangements.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

murphaph

Nope. Most NI freight going to England goes via Dublin. Going via Scotland means many miles of single carriageway roads before getting to the main road south.

Compare this to the dual carriageway/motorway route from beyond Ballymena all the way to Dublin port through the port tunnel, then ferry over and straight on to the A55 North Wales Expressway (motorway in all but name) all the way to the M6.

Holyhead Port is very concerned that a lot of NI traffic will begin taking the slower route via Scotland because of customs. There was an item about this on (I think) Newsnight quite recently.