Irish Border and Brexit

Sam Russell

blanch152 wrote: »

There is a huge implication for retail operations in Ireland post-Brexit, regardless of where the border is. Will the likes of Debenhams and M&S maintain operations in the South? Tesco, due to size, most probably will, but many others may not. M&S may become more food-based, like on the continent. Is Harvey Nichols making enough money out of Dundrum to justify staying post-tariffs?

But M&S import 100% of their produce from the UK. Can they continue if there are tariffs on food? They would have to set up a local procurement operation if they intend to source here and their business is too small to warrant it. Tesco already have local sourcing. Dundrum may be hit by #UK outfits leaving.

blanch152

Sam Russell wrote: »

But M&S import 100% of their produce from the UK. Can they continue if there are tariffs on food? They would have to set up a local procurement operation if they intend to source here and their business is too small to warrant it. Tesco already have local sourcing. Dundrum may be hit by #UK outfits leaving.

The point I was making was that M&S have a Europe-wide operation, unlike say Halfords which is only in the UK and Ireland.

It is only a guessing game but I would expect Tesco to stay (large Irish operation), brands like Halfords to go (only in Ireland, market too small to adapt for Brexit) and the likes of M&S to be in-between, depending on what they do generally in Europe.

One of the most visible impacts of Brexit may well be changes in the retail landscape.

Sam Russell

blanch152 wrote: »

The point I was making was that M&S have a Europe-wide operation, unlike say Halfords which is only in the UK and Ireland.

It is only a guessing game but I would expect Tesco to stay (large Irish operation), brands like Halfords to go (only in Ireland, market too small to adapt for Brexit) and the likes of M&S to be in-between, depending on what they do generally in Europe.

One of the most visible impacts of Brexit may well be changes in the retail landscape.

The reason I picked Halfords is they have a very small toe in the Irish landscape and would find it difficult to justify a larger presence here, unless they could justify an all Ireland presence if the EU border was in the Irish sea. The likely tariffs for their product range would be low, compared to M&S food range, plus the restrictions on some food products (like chlorinated chicken).

jm08

knipex wrote: »

All borders are essentially lines on maps.

The questions you need to answer is does a country value its independence and trade enough to protect those borders..

Lines on maps that follow natural features such as mountains & rivers.

Not sure what your point is about a country's values, but Northern Ireland did vote to remain in the EU.

jm08

Sam Russell wrote: »

The reason I picked Halfords is they have a very small toe in the Irish landscape and would find it difficult to justify a larger presence here, unless they could justify an all Ireland presence if the EU border was in the Irish sea. The likely tariffs for their product range would be low, compared to M&S food range, plus the restrictions on some food products (like chlorinated chicken).

I think it will be more interesting to see what food companies do that have their central distribution based in the UK (some company like Lidl). Tesco sells a lot of Irish fresh food here, whereas M&S sell British produced fresh food. For clothes and stuff, I'd imagine they could ship them straight in from Turkey/China or where ever they are made.

Sam Russell

jm08 wrote: »

I think it will be more interesting to see what food companies do that have their central distribution based in the UK (some company like Lidl). Tesco sells a lot of Irish fresh food here, whereas M&S sell British produced fresh food. For clothes and stuff, I'd imagine they could ship them straight in from Turkey/China or where ever they are made.

Lidl and Aldi both have all-Ireland distribution. I would imagine they would ship into Ireland direct from EU sites.

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

Lidl and Aldi both have all-Ireland distribution. I would imagine they would ship into Ireland direct from EU sites.

They are masters of logistics so I'm sure there plans are well advanced.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

I think it will be more interesting to see what food companies do that have their central distribution based in the UK (some company like Lidl). Tesco sells a lot of Irish fresh food here, whereas M&S sell British produced fresh food. For clothes and stuff, I'd imagine they could ship them straight in from Turkey/China or where ever they are made.

For some of the companies, the logistics of separating shipping just for a small Irish market mightn't be worth it and they will pull out.

murphaph

Sam Russell wrote: »

Lidl and Aldi both have all-Ireland distribution. I would imagine they would ship into Ireland direct from EU sites.

The assortment in Lidl and probably moreso Aldi in Ireland and the UK differs a fair bit from the assortment in say Germany.

I would expect fewer British products in Irish Aldis and fewer Irish and continental products in UK Aldis. The assortment in Irish stores will revert back to a more continental assortment perhaps over time seeing substituted Irish produced products to replace the delisted UK ones.

Junkyard Tom

It's starting.

Northern Ireland beef farmers have called for a five-year Brexit transition period, warning that the two-year plan outlined by Theresa May in Florence will just be a “stay of execution” for the industry.

Research funded by the body found that a cliff-edge departure from the EU would result in exports to Europe dropping 90% if the UK fell back to World Trade Organisation rules.

theguardian.com/politics

As far as I know a majority of farmers in the north voted for Brexit despite farming being generously subsidised by the EU. I'm presuming a lot of Farmers in the north are DUP supporters?

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's starting.

Northern Ireland beef farmers have called for a five-year Brexit transition period, warning that the two-year plan outlined by Theresa May in Florence will just be a “stay of execution” for the industry.

Research funded by the body found that a cliff-edge departure from the EU would result in exports to Europe dropping 90% if the UK fell back to World Trade Organisation rules.

theguardian.com/politics

As far as I know a majority of farmers in the north voted for Brexit despite farming being generously subsidised by the EU. I'm presuming a lot of Farmers in the north are DUP supporters?

They are about to find out the cost of blindly following a leader who only wanted to take the opposite position to SF for the sake of it. And then immediately started to row backwards.

breatheme

jm08 wrote: »

knipex wrote: »

All borders are essentially lines on maps.

The questions you need to answer is does a country value its independence and  trade enough to protect those borders..

Lines on maps that follow natural features such as mountains & rivers.

Not sure what your point is about a country's values, but Northern Ireland did vote to remain in the EU.

*takes a look at the border between Canada and the US, which is basically a straight line*
*At the Chile-Argentina border*
And so on...
You lie. Let's move on. Yes, the border between NI and RoI is just a line, doesn't change the fact that depending on how the UK government carries out Brexit, it may have to be policed.
I don't think that the NI border issue won't come to ONE  solution, and maybe NI (and the RoI???) should vote on it.

knipex

jm08 wrote: »

Lines on maps that follow natural features such as mountains & rivers.

Not sure what your point is about a country's values, but Northern Ireland did vote to remain in the EU.

I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

The question is that simple..

Many posters are suggesting that we just ignore our borders, they aren't worth protecting and let what ever when ever pass over.

Not all borders follow natural features. hell even the Hong Kong China border has about 30 miles where it essentially is a lien in the middle of a field.

Belgium France, Hell Virtually the entire Belgian border with France, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg.. Luxumburgs border with everyone.

Swiss \ Austria, Italy \ Slovenia.

Every nation on earth protects its borders but for some Reason Ireland is a special case (Again) and cannot do so..

Peregrinus

knipex wrote: »

I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

The question is that simple . . .

Simple, but wrong.

Remember that, in Ireland, the dominant concept of "nationhood" would suggest that, far from enforcing and protecting the border with Northern Ireland, we should be looking to eliminate it as a border. As for trade, the current status of the border is clearly more in our trading interest than any harder border would be.

Basically, the partition of Ireland is Not A Good Thing. It never has been. It hasn't been good for either part of Ireland. The less obtrusive, assertive, effective it is, the better. Considerations of national identity, reputation and trading interests do not change this; they reinforce it.

murphaph

knipex wrote: »

I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

The question is that simple..

Many posters are suggesting that we just ignore our borders, they aren't worth protecting and let what ever when ever pass over.

Not all borders follow natural features. hell even the Hong Kong China border has about 30 miles where it essentially is a lien in the middle of a field.

Belgium France, Hell Virtually the entire Belgian border with France, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg.. Luxumburgs border with everyone.

Swiss \ Austria, Italy \ Slovenia.

Every nation on earth protects its borders but for some Reason Ireland is a special case (Again) and cannot do so..

If we did not have the integrity of the single market to uphold then I would be for a fudged solution but it won't wash with the EU and rightly so. We all rely on our external customs borders being properly policed to help keep our food supply safe. It's no joke. Ask the Chinese about fake food and the crap they've inadvertently fed to their babies down the years.

This takes absolute priority over any Irish nationalist stuff. It is hard to police an external customs border like that but it must be policed. It may mean closing roads to vehicular traffic and other unpalatable measures like it.

I fear that the cameras and whatnot will end up on our side of the border. It's that or leave the EU ourselves and that is not an option to me.

Peregrinus

Well, no, there are other options such as the UK agreeing to adhere to EU food safety standards in order to have unrestricted access to EU markets for UK produce. That could be part of a UK/EU trade deal, for instance.

I agree with you that the integrity of the single market, and the RoI's place within it, must be protected, but a hard border isn't necessarily the only way of doing that, unless the UK government rules out all other feasible options. And I won't despair on that front until I have to.

murphaph

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, no, there are other options such as the UK agreeing to adhere to EU food safety standards in order to have unrestricted access to EU markets for UK produce. That could be part of a UK/EU trade deal, for instance.

I agree with you that the integrity of the single market, and the RoI's place within it, must be protected, but a hard border isn't necessarily the only way of doing that, unless the UK government rules out all other feasible options. And I won't despair on that front until I have to.

Yeah I'm going on the assumption the UK crashes out altogether. Obviously there are other options if the UK is prepared to cede that precious sovereignty.

The best solution is the UK as a whole just stays in the SM and CU but we apparently need a general election for that.

demfad

• The UK has chosen to move outside the EU external frontier
• The single market is a defensive system which must be protected.
• The UK has said it doesn't want a hard border which means the UK must request the EU not to police its border.
• UK must devise a model for NI governance that allows the EU to refrain from policing its border.
• If UK chooses to diverge from existing regulatory regime and allow imports at differing standards then EU border is compromised.
• EU cannot make exceptions to its third country controls - they are uniform throughout, so it must police the border.
• So if the border is to stay unpoliced UK need to agree to match regulatory regimes
• UK must spell out how their outer controls and trade deals do not threaten EUs.
• EU cannot be expected to re-engineer its third country controls for the sole benefit of UK or turn a blind eye to UK divergence.

The EU is actually limited in the models it can offer the UK in terms of a long term arrangement: Swiss, Norway, Turkey, Canada.

Lets look at some local Stats:

• 5,000+ NI businesses exported to Ireland (150% more than exported to GB). 51% of these businesses have fewer than 9 employees.
• In terms of value - 80% of sales from NI to Ireland from businesses with fewer than 250 employees.
• 177k HGVs and 208k light vans cross the border every month
• NI agri-food % sales to Ireland - 42% dairy processing, 37% sheep processing - 42% of NI’s sheep/lambs processed in Ireland
• 110m person border crossings each year - 15 main crossing points responsible for 43m recorded road vehicle crossings
• 2011 Census - 14,800 people commute for work/study. 2017 study - 270 Ireland pupils at NI secondary schools - 100 at primary school
• 47% of cars in border shopping areas Ireland registered - Ireland households responsible for c.1.6% of GVA for retail sector of NI

There is an awful lot riding on this 'seamless border'.
If UK crashes out the disruption to our economy and NIs will be massive.
ROI should start building infrastructure for hard border NOW to allow for some trade at least.

knipex

Peregrinus wrote: »

Simple, but wrong.

Remember that, in Ireland, the dominant concept of "nationhood" would suggest that, far from enforcing and protecting the border with Northern Ireland, we should be looking to eliminate it as a border. As for trade, the current status of the border is clearly more in our trading interest than any harder border would be.

The current status of the border (barring a huge change in policy from the UK) is over..

Our trade with Northern Ireland is negligible in comparison with the rest of the world and the EU in particular.

Refusal to police those borders would make us a smuggling route, a pariah of the EU and benefit no one but a criminal element north and south. it woudl kill our trade and our economy.

Anything that puts our trade and economy under threat due to some notion of "nationhood" and a united Ireland is economic suicide. Any dream of a united Ireland needs a strong economy in the republic. Northern Ireland is a financial burden and unless you want a united Ireland that is a 2 or 3rd world ****ehole with virtually no economy, a rabid socialist government and violence and bloodshed on the streets you need a strong Irish economy and the support and help of Europe.

First Up

The border issue was included in the GFA  There is no conceivable Irish government that would not recognise and enforce it on ideological grounds.  
That doesn't mean smuggling can't or wont take place - it would be virtually impossible to prevent it as it was even when the British army was on it. 
That doesn't matter much in the context of the EU any more than it does anywhere on the EU's Eastern flank.  No UK company can use smuggling as the basis for trade with the EU. A bit of leakage is neither here nor there.
.

jm08

knipex wrote: »

I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

The question is that simple..

Many posters are suggesting that we just ignore our borders, they aren't worth protecting and let what ever when ever pass over.

Not all borders follow natural features. hell even the Hong Kong China border has about 30 miles where it essentially is a lien in the middle of a field.

Belgium France, Hell Virtually the entire Belgian border with France, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg.. Luxumburgs border with everyone.

Swiss \ Austria, Italy \ Slovenia.

Every nation on earth protects its borders but for some Reason Ireland is a special case (Again) and cannot do so..

Every nation on earth protects its borders? Why do you think most countries in Europe are in Schengen? (In case you don't know, the reason is that its costly and pointless in some cases to even try).

A 2 metre high wire border between NI & Ireland would be a waste of time and money. It was the Irish Revenue Commissioners who came up with the half a billion figure to put in customs controls between NI & ROI. Its a Berlin wall that would be needed to protect the ROI's trade and economy.

breatheme

I guess you could say "every nation on Earth and the Schengen area", and his point still remains.

blanch152

demfad wrote: »

• The UK has chosen to move outside the EU external frontier
• The single market is a defensive system which must be protected.
• The UK has said it doesn't want a hard border which means the UK must request the EU not to police its border.
• UK must devise a model for NI governance that allows the EU to refrain from policing its border.
• If UK chooses to diverge from existing regulatory regime and allow imports at differing standards then EU border is compromised.
• EU cannot make exceptions to its third country controls - they are uniform throughout, so it must police the border.
• So if the border is to stay unpoliced UK need to agree to match regulatory regimes
• UK must spell out how their outer controls and trade deals do not threaten EUs.
• EU cannot be expected to re-engineer its third country controls for the sole benefit of UK or turn a blind eye to UK divergence.

The EU is actually limited in the models it can offer the UK in terms of a long term arrangement: Swiss, Norway, Turkey, Canada.

Lets look at some local Stats:

• 5,000+ NI businesses exported to Ireland (150% more than exported to GB). 51% of these businesses have fewer than 9 employees.
• In terms of value - 80% of sales from NI to Ireland from businesses with fewer than 250 employees.
• 177k HGVs and 208k light vans cross the border every month
• NI agri-food % sales to Ireland - 42% dairy processing, 37% sheep processing - 42% of NI’s sheep/lambs processed in Ireland
• 110m person border crossings each year - 15 main crossing points responsible for 43m recorded road vehicle crossings
• 2011 Census - 14,800 people commute for work/study. 2017 study - 270 Ireland pupils at NI secondary schools - 100 at primary school
• 47% of cars in border shopping areas Ireland registered - Ireland households responsible for c.1.6% of GVA for retail sector of NI

There is an awful lot riding on this 'seamless border'.
If UK crashes out the disruption to our economy and NIs will be massive.
ROI should start building infrastructure for hard border NOW to allow for some trade at least.

Where did you get those stats? No link provided, so how do we know they are reliable.

Peregrinus

breatheme wrote: »

I guess you could say "every nation on Earth and the Schengen area", and his point still remains.

Well, it doesn't really, in his earlier post claiming that nations must police their borders he offered a number of examples of nations that don't police their borders at all. Clearly, border control is not a central characteristic of True Nationhood.

If the UK does crash out, we'll have no choice but to police the border. This will be bad for us, but the alternative of not policing it will be worse. In the circumstances, you can't expect us to do this with a particularly good grace. The UK is shooting itself in the foot and we're the collateral damage.

And it's self-interest, not High Principle, that will lead us to police the border. And we'll only police it in ways that, and to the extent that, serve our self-interest. Which means no border fence or anything like it, and a realistic acceptance that the social and geographical nature of the Irish border means that it's always going to be fairly porous. Border security (on the Irish side) will be focussed on the interdiction of contraband goods, and on the collection of revenue. There will be no attempt to control the movement of people.

First Up

Peregrinus wrote: »

Border security (on the Irish side) will be focussed on the interdiction of contraband goods, and on the collection of revenue.  There will be no attempt to control the movement of people.

It will be focused on the application of the terms of the EU's trade agreement with the UK.

Peregrinus

First Up wrote: »

It will be focused on the application of the terms of the EU's trade agreement with the UK.

In the crash-out situation that murphaph suggests, there will be no trade agreement with the UK. AT any rate, not initially.

But this may be a distinction without a difference. Whether the UK is trading into the EU under a trade agreement, or on default WTO terms, policiing of the Irish border will mainly be focussed on collecting the customs duties and other taxes due on imports from the UK, and on the interdiction of goods whose importation into the EU is prohibited.

Calina

First Up wrote: »

It will be focused on the application of the terms of the EU's trade agreement with the UK.

You mean the UK's trade agreement with the EU.

In this I think you are likely to be engaging in wishful thinking. As matters stand, the UK has a Brexit deadline of March 2019. They are also now talking about an implementation period of 2 years. And they are also saying they want trade arrangements that are bespoke. Despite saying that they want to reduce red tape, they have also asked the EU to accept a promise that the UK will be regulatorily equivalent to the UK while also making clear that they do not want to provide a viable method fof the EU of really enforcing that. As the Home Office goes unpunished by the British courts for contempt, and the UK is already in trouble as an EU member with a 2 billion euro fine regarding customs transgressions, I cannot see a bespoke deal coming quickly. CETA took years to negotiate in good faith with competent negotiators on both sides.

So unless the UK agrees to ECJ oversight and SM membership I have some doubts that there will be enduring trade arrangements in place in 4 years.

First Up

So do I, but the role of the border on the Irish side will be to enforce whatever terms apply to UK-EU trade after Brexit.

knipex

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, it doesn't really, in his earlier post claiming that nations must police their borders he offered a number of examples of nations that don't police their borders at all.

Way to be selective and misappropriate comments.

You claimed that all borders followed rivers or coasts or natural features that acted as border barriers.

I listed a number of countries where that isn't the case..

I also said that any country that valued its independence an trade had to police its border.. (which you now appear to agree with all be it in some selective policing method that you haven't clarified)

Peregrinus

knipex wrote: »

Way to be selective and misappropriate comments.

You claimed that all borders followed rivers or coasts or natural features that acted as border barriers.

Not me, knipex.

knipex wrote: »

I also said that any country that valued its independence an trade had to police its border.. (which you now appear to agree with all be it in some selective policing method that you haven't clarified)

What you actually said, and what I was responding to, was . . .

knipex wrote: »

I am not talking about Northern Ireland.

I am talking about the republic of Ireland.

Does it value its nationhood, its reputation and its trade enough to enforce and protect its borders.

The question is that simple..

In the Irish context, the border is problematic as far as nationhood and reputation are concerned, and I thought it was worth pointing that out. As far as trade is concerned, the border will have to be policed if the foot-shooting of the UK makes that necessary, but (a) this is most unfortunate from every point of view, and (b) that kind of policing certainly doesn't involve the kind of border fence that View was advocating.

The Rape of Lucretia

@blanch152, Where did you get the suggestion that these stats may not be reliable?
No link provided so how do we know you have any good grounds to question demfad ?

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

@blanch152, Where did you get the suggestion that these stats may not be reliable?
No link provided so how do we know you have any good grounds to question demfad ?

They are quoted from the UK position paper are they not?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are quoted from the UK position paper are they not?

Are they? And does that mean they are reliable? I seem to recall the British Statistics Office and other bodies questioning their own Government's use of statistics.

Statistics in a position paper are usually selected (and I use that word carefully) to bolster a particular argument, not as a clarification of facts. Until I see something a little more rigourous than an unattributed quotation, I will feel free to ignore.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Are they? And does that mean they are reliable? I seem to recall the British Statistics Office and other bodies questioning their own Government's use of statistics.

Statistics in a position paper are usually selected (and I use that word carefully) to bolster a particular argument, not as a clarification of facts. Until I see something a little more rigourous than an unattributed quotation, I will feel free to ignore.

Ok.
That is where they came from. Repudiate them with alternate facts.

jm08

knipex wrote: »

Not all borders follow natural features. hell even the Hong Kong China border has about 30 miles where it essentially is a lien in the middle of a field.

So? It was an artificial border.

Belgium France, Hell Virtually the entire Belgian border with France, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg.. Luxumburgs border with everyone.


Swiss \ Austria, Italy \ Slovenia.

Have you ever heard of the Ardenne Mountains between Belgium and Luxembourg/Germany/French border?

The Ardennes (/ɑːrˈdɛn/; French: L'Ardenne; Dutch: Ardennen; Walloon: L'dene; Luxembourgish: Ardennen; also known as Ardennes Forest) is a region of extensive forests, rough terrain, rolling hills and ridges formed by the geological features of the Ardennes mountain range and the Moselle and Meuse River basins. Geologically, the range is a western extension of the Eifel and both were raised during the Givetian age[1] of the Devonian (387.7 to 382.7 million years ago) as were several other named ranges of the same greater range.


Primarily in Belgium and Luxembourg, but stretching into Germany and France (lending its name to the Ardennes department and the former Champagne-Ardenne region), and geologically into the Eifel—the eastern extension of the Ardennes Forest into Bitburg-Prüm, Germany, most of the Ardennes proper consists of southeastern Wallonia, the southern and more rural part of the Kingdom of Belgium (away from the coastal plain but encompassing over half of the kingdom's total area). The eastern part of the Ardennes forms the northernmost third of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, also called "Oesling" (Luxembourgish: slek), and on the southeast the Eifel region continues into Rhineland-Palatinate (German state).

Have a look at this map - it will give you an idea of the borders of Europe.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@49.6404569,5.7662251,716721m/data=!3m1!1e3?dcr=0

Between Slovenia & Czech Republic, if its not mountain, river or lake its dense forestry for example.

breatheme

What about Portugal and Spain?

jm08

breatheme wrote: »

What about Portugal and Spain?

The Portugal–Spain border is 1,214 km (754 miles) long and considered the longest uninterrupted border within the European Union. The border is not defined for 18 km (11 miles) between the Caia river and Ribeira de Cuncos, because of the disputed status of Olivenza, which has been disputed between the two countries for two hundred years.

Rio Touroes establishes the natural border between Spain and Portugal from its mouth on the river Águeda near the town of La Bouza to an intermediate point between the Portuguese town of Sao Pedro de Rio Seco and La Alameda de Gard

Interesting that the only disputed part of the boundary doesn't have a natural feature to define it.

breatheme

That river that you mentioned crosses the border into Portugal, and it originates in Castilla y León, so it's only a small part of the border. I did find that the river Águeda is one of the natural borders between Portugal and Spain, but it runs for 176 km, so what about the other 1038 km? That is only is only a small part of the border. And the disputed part of the boundary is ONE town. A small town at that. What about the border between Galicia and Portugal? Extremadura and Portugal? Andalucia and Portugal?
EDIT: here's a link so you can see how small that town (the disputed one) is: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Olivença_location.PNG

knipex

jm08 wrote: »

So? It was an artificial border.



Have you ever heard of the Ardenne Mountains between Belgium and Luxembourg/Germany/French border?



Have a look at this map - it will give you an idea of the borders of Europe.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@49.6404569,5.7662251,716721m/data=!3m1!1e3?dcr=0

Between Slovenia & Czech Republic, if its not mountain, river or lake its dense forestry for example.

Man you have hold of a bone..

I saw 2 bushes and a tree between Donegal and Derry.

A Forest or a lake will stop movement.

Its far easier patrol open fields than forestry..

jm08

breatheme wrote: »

That river that you mentioned crosses the border into Portugal, and it originates in Castilla y Leso it's only a small part of the border. I did find that the river Águeda is one of the natural borders between Portugal and Spain, but it runs for 176 km, so what about the other 1038 km? That is only is only a small part of the border. And the disputed part of the boundary is ONE town. A small town at that. What about the border between Galicia and Portugal? Extremadura and Portugal? Andalucia and Portugal?
EDIT: here's a link so you can see how small that town (the disputed one) is: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Oliven%C3%A7a_location.PNG

The Deuro, the Tagus, and the Guadiana all follow the border at some point. From looking at the map, I can see 8 roads crossing the border between Spain & Portugal.

A river and mountains/national park between Galicia & Portugal. One road crosses the border at Tui, and another at Chaves.

ancapailldorcha

Back on topic please.

The Rape of Lucretia

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-guy-verhofstadt-single-market-customs-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html

European Parliament to vote on the customs to be in the Irish sea.

Always the likely option, but I am surprised they are bringing it into the open at this stage....given the trouble it risks causing May from the DUP.
Unless....
1) while the DUP will huff and puff and march in outrage - the gamble is that they will run with it, knowing that it is indeed in their best interest
or
2) that it will topple the govt and provoke another election. But Brussels having had enough of the Tory party, feeling Labour may actually be the more reasonable representative and that true negotiation, rather than a sham one while the Tories play out their internal civil war, may be then possible.

pinksoir

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-border-guy-verhofstadt-single-market-customs-union-european-parliament-a7972596.html

European Parliament to vote on the customs to be in the Irish sea.

Always the likely option, but I am surprised they are bringing it into the open at this stage....given the trouble it risks causing May from the DUP.
Unless....
1) while the DUP will huff and puff and march in outrage - the gamble is that they will run with it, knowing that it is indeed in their best interest
or
2) that it will topple the govt and provoke another election. But Brussels having had enough of the Tory party, feeling Labour may actually be the more reasonable representative and that true negotiation, rather than a sham one while the Tories play out their internal civil war, may be then possible.

Seems like the right and democratic thing to do would be to put it to the vote for the people of NI.

The Rape of Lucretia

pinksoir wrote: »

Seems like the right and democratic thing to do would be to put it to the vote for the people of NI.

Well, we have seen where democracy has brought the UK so far on this topic - hardly the way to go at all. The UK govt will just have to pull the trigger on this one if it the only way forward for Brexit, and view it as a price that had to be paid. Sorry NI, etc - but you are just collatoral damage in this whole Brexit fiasco.
Giving decisions to the people would be just likely to compound the problem.


(By the way, can anyone think of a democracy making a decision as bad as Brexit since the Nazis won a majority in the '32 election ? Is the Brexit decision, now second place to that tragic 'let the people chose' election.)

Junkyard Tom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

1) while the DUP will huff and puff and march in outrage - the gamble is that they will run with it, knowing that it is indeed in their best interest.

I'm very confident they will refuse to support anything that bursts their fantasy-bubble that the north is an integral part of the UK. Ian Paisley Jnr was recently talking about how 'we' gave Ireland funds via the EU - completely oblivious to the fact that the north has been underwritten by England and the EU for decades. The 'we' IPJnr thinks he is part of is not the 'we' the English are.

The utter delusions of Unionist politicians and UKIP types is not so much a political position as a quasi-religious dogma that places the Greatness of Britain, above all other states, at its centre.

Jeffrey Donaldson threatening that Boeing should 'wind its neck in' exemplifies the above.

pinksoir

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Well, we have seen where democracy has brought the UK so far on this topic - hardly the way to go at all. The UK govt will just have to pull the trigger on this one if it the only way forward for Brexit, and view it as a price that had to be paid. Sorry NI, etc - but you are just collatoral damage in this whole Brexit fiasco.
Giving decisions to the people would be just likely to compound the problem.

I don't know. NI voted to stay in the EU/single market. I could imagine unionists being pragmatic enough to go with remaining in the SM/customs union if it were put to a vote.

The issue with the UK is that it's got devolved powers, each of the regions having unique interests. As it is, it's very much a case of the United Kingdom of England and the Other Guys. It doesn't seem right that London should decide what happens to NI people in NI when they have no skin in the game.

That's an issue with national democracies in general, of course. And it is a criticism that could be equally levelled at the EU. However, the regions in the EU (the countries) have a right to veto any decisions and this is not based on percentage of overall population of the Union. This was not the case in the Brexit vote. If the UK (English) government were committed to democracy and devolution they might have considered only allowing Brexit go forward if all regions were in agreement. Allowing regions to vote on decisions such as the NI border might go some way to addressing this.

Calina

To be fair, London voted in favour of Remain too.

It is evident that Cameron, Gove and Johnson never expected Brexit to win. Cameron fell on his sword. Johnson wants to be PM. The interests of the UK really never were central to this; otherwise the referendum would have been better run with clearer dependent legislation clear beforehand.

Thomas__

Calina wrote: »

To be fair, London voted in favour of Remain too.

It is evident that Cameron, Gove and Johnson never expected Brexit to win. Cameron fell on his sword. Johnson wants to be PM. The interests of the UK really never were central to this; otherwise the referendum would have been better run with clearer dependent legislation clear beforehand.

You really have a point there. I don´t know whether you´ve ever read anything of the information pamphlets the Remain Camp has distributed (they are still on their Website) in which all the pros of remain and the cons of Brexit were as clear listed and explained. So, the facts were all there and accessible to everyone interested in reading them. Going out from the lack of interest many people in the UK apparently have shown on these fact sheets, I would dare say that the same people might have had no much interest in reading any proposals for legislation either. Such clearance in legistlation proposals must have had sections regarding the Irish border as well.

My point is that the whole campaign as we have seen was lead massively on emotions stirred up by the right-wing and tabloid press in the UK. I see that as an incitment procedure which was going on for years before the BrexitRef even took place and this was intensified even more in the up run to the Ref. That´s the sad thing that people got that blinded by this stirring up of emotions which I say was inciting them by massive anti-EU propaganda which led them to ignore the facts and follow the lies of the usual Brexiteers like Farage, Johnson et al. The Brexit propagandists and their supportive media knew that perfectly well and took advantage of it to finally succeed. But to their disappointment, the Brexit negotiations are going not the way as they expected and are apparently stagnating because after four negotiation rounds with the EU, nothing has been achieved. One can anticipate that this will continue the way it went up to day and it will lead to a hard Brexit whatever Mrs May and her members of cabinet will try to make the public believe.

Now the EU is about to discuss their way of reformation after this long speech the French President Macron has given at the Sorbonne University and I have no idea yet how his proposals might effect the Brexit negotiations on their way to completion in March 2019. Maybe some idea might emerge from this discussions among the EU leaders how to solve and settle the Irish border question. It might be possible that the UK ends up left behind because of their incapability to get anything settled in this negotiations. Maybe Mrs May and her cabinet are doing this on purpose and leave the border problem to the Republic of Ireland to solve, in a way that they think that after the UK has exited the EU, it is on the Irish State to secure the border to NI as part of the UK as a remaining EU member state and as such, it would fall on the Republic of Ireland to do the job to secure the "outer border of the EU", just like other EU member states have to do.

kingchess

Mrs May should be very happy as now the EU are finally being "creative" and coming up with new ideas,The DUP,on the other hand.....

blanch152

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Well, we have seen where democracy has brought the UK so far on this topic - hardly the way to go at all. The UK govt will just have to pull the trigger on this one if it the only way forward for Brexit, and view it as a price that had to be paid. Sorry NI, etc - but you are just collatoral damage in this whole Brexit fiasco.
Giving decisions to the people would be just likely to compound the problem.

That would be a breach of the GFA which gives the right of self-determination to the people of Northern Ireland. If the people of Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK and not join the customs union, meaning a hard border, then they should be given the opportunity to vote on that choice. Or do you only believe in democracy when it gives you the answer you want to hear?

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

(By the way, can anyone think of a democracy making a decision as bad as Brexit since the Nazis won a majority in the '32 election ? Is the Brexit decision, now second place to that tragic 'let the people chose' election.)

Except that didn't happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_July_1932


"They saw great gains by the Nazi Party, which for the first time became the largest party in parliament but without winning a majority."