Wow air drops Cork from October

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/wow-air-axes-cork-to-iceland-flights-after-just-five-months-455975.html

I imagine it was trumped by Norwegians direct route.

Zonda999

Yep, was never lilely to succeed.

Also, I imagine the fact they charge for hand luggage didn't help either in attracting pax, espeically on a per flight basis on a route they were hoping to attract connections to North America. As for the iceland tourism market alone, the existing flights ex DUB (As well as one stop options through AMS or LHR) are more than adequate for the demand.

jjbrien

The Icelandic low-fares airline confirmed last night the route, launched in May as a year-round service and which offered onward flights to the US, is being “suspended” for the winter months.

Could only be for the low season and could restart during the summer.

I used this service myself last week to Pittsburgh, had to make a sudden trip due to a bereavement. I paid for a carry-on bag but when I got there they treated it as a personal item (even though it was bigger than the personal allowance) so that was wasted money. Priority boarding is also useless in Keflavik because they bus everyone to the plane from the gate anyway. Was fine in Cork and Pittsburgh.

I was also delayed in Keflavik on the way back to Cork due to an engine problem on the plane; they spotted it after we boarded so we had to stay there for over two hours.

It was OK for the price but I don't think I'd use them again.

“Wow Air will continue to operate its Cork to Reykjavik summer season service until October 27 next, at which point the route will be suspended for the winter season. A decision on Wow Air’s plans for summer 2018 from Cork will be made later in the autumn.”

The summer numbers are appalling they won't be back in 2018.

jjbrien

Be one reason id avoid them is having to pay for a carry on bag and unlike Norwegian the flights aint direct. The thing that would worry me is if Norwegian cant sustain the loads out of Cork which is whats being said in the Norwegian thread then Cork wont have a transatlantic flight. The runway length at Cork is whats killing the dream for them.

roundymac

jjbrien wrote: »

Be one reason id avoid them is having to pay for a carry on bag and unlike Norwegian the flights aint direct. The thing that would worry me is if Norwegian cant sustain the loads out of Cork which is whats being said in the Norwegian thread then Cork wont have a transatlantic flight. The runway length at Cork is whats killing the dream for them.

Where is that being said? Cork loads are doing very well.

Mid July to Mid August there are 14 ORK-PVD flights in a row fully sold out and inbound is very busy. Roughly 130-140 on each flight. Immigration waiting time isn't long either as there are no other arrivals at 08:30. 737 max is expected in Cork over the next few weeks.

jjbrien

roundymac wrote: »

Where is that being said? Cork loads are doing very well.

Mid July to Mid August there are 14 ORK-PVD flights in a row fully sold out and inbound is very busy. Roughly 130-140 on each flight. Immigration waiting time isn't long either as there are no other arrivals at 08:30. 737 max is expected in Cork over the next few weeks.

Theres some comments on the thread saying people think the route will be axed. I hope it dont Cork needs transatlantic flights.

Bussywussy

Spoke to a Norwegian/Boeing Engineer yest..they are very impressed with the performance and efficiency of the Max so far and wreckon there'll be no runway problem in cork like previously mooted

JCX BXC

jjbrien wrote: »

Cork needs transatlantic flights.

I never understood this, why does Cork need these? It's clear the market is limited, and with the resources and lobbying that Cork has put into this 3pw service I'd hate to see what they could have done in terms of European services.

CeilingFly

Deleted User wrote: »

The summer numbers are appalling they won't be back in 2018.

We looked at going to Iceland for a few days - the prices for hotel, food, drink was astronomical, so we decided not to bother.

Others who have been there say it's fabulous , but cost of holiday comes up as a serious negative with everyone.

jjbrien

CeilingFly wrote: »

We looked at going to Iceland for a few days - the prices for hotel, food, drink was astronomical, so we decided not to bother.

Others who have been there say it's fabulous , but cost of holiday comes up as a serious negative with everyone.

Whats airbnb like there? Its one of the places on my bucket list just never made it around to getting there.

Gmaximum

jjbrien wrote: »

Whats airbnb like there? Its one of the places on my bucket list just never made it around to getting there.

Good value on air bnb. Having done it last year I'd suggest hiring a car and doing the sights yourselves. Roads are good everything easy to find

roundymac

JCX BXC wrote: »

I never understood this, why does Cork need these? It's clear the market is limited, and with the resources and lobbying that Cork has put into this 3pw service I'd hate to see what they could have done in terms of European services.

Of coarse it needs it, why should we have to haul ourselves up to Dub and SNN.:mad:

zetalambda

jjbrien wrote: »

Theres some comments on the thread saying people think the route will be axed. I hope it dont Cork needs transatlantic flights.

Boards is full of gobsh!tes that don't know the first thing about business. Why would you axe a route that continuously sells out?

It's probably the same people that said Norweigan really wanted Dublin and were just using Cork. In that case, why are they flying Belfast and Shannon too? Is it all part of the plot?

JCX BXC

roundymac wrote: »

Of coarse it needs it, why should we have to haul ourselves up to Dub and SNN.:mad:

How is that any reason? Should Cork also have a route to Dubai, because you don't want to haul your way to Dublin? Should Kerry have the same?

It's probably the same people that said Norweigan really wanted Dublin and were just using Cork.

They were the comments in the Media, the comments on here were suggesting they were using Cork as political leverage to get a licence for NAI, I'm sure they'll have no problem staying around in Cork if they're making money.

marno21

JCX BXC wrote: »

How is that any reason? Should Cork also have a route to Dubai, because you don't want to haul your way to Dublin? Should Kerry have the same?



They were the comments in the Media, the comments on here were suggesting they were using Cork as political leverage to get a licence for NAI, I'm sure they'll have no problem staying around in Cork if they're making money.

If Cork can sustain a flight to Dubai then it should have a flight to Dubai. Same with Kerry. I'm not the biggest fan of Norwegian Air International but they seem to have struck something here with the Cork-Providence flight and its good to see. It's also good to see Cork people using it and the airport getting business. If Cork doesn't deserve transatlantic flights I don't see how Shannon deserves them. Shannon is quite lucky that it has the runway that Cork doesn't, as Cork has better European connections and it would be more beneficial for Aer Lingus to fly transatlantic from Cork given their short haul connection options, which Shannon doesn't have.

I agree with your certain point though, an airline using Cork as a ploy to get a licence would be a lot more effective than yet another transatlantic carrier from Dublin. Using Cork was effective as it attracted attention and it became a political issue locally that the service was approved.

JCX BXC

marno21 wrote: »

If Cork can sustain a flight to Dubai then it should have a flight to Dubai. Same with Kerry. I'm not the biggest fan of Norwegian Air International but they seem to have struck something here with the Cork-Providence flight and its good to see. It's also good to see Cork people using it and the airport getting business. If Cork doesn't deserve transatlantic flights I don't see how Shannon deserves them. Shannon is quite lucky that it has the runway that Cork doesn't, as Cork has better European connections and it would be more beneficial for Aer Lingus to fly transatlantic from Cork given their short haul connection options, which Shannon doesn't have.

There's alot more to airline picking routes than you're making there out to be. Things like hubbing, competitiveness, politics and even airline/airport politics have massive effects, and that's only beginning to name a few.

Also, nobody is saying that Cork, Shannon, or even Dublin 'deserves' anything. Airlines and airports are businesses, and frankly deserve isn't a term that should be used in business. Airlines will fly where it makes sense, not where 'deserves' to have a route.

What cork can sustain is another point, and if they are sustaining these flights, great, they're a long time coming.

Also I'd like to question your point on it being more beneficial for EI to fly from cork due to their short haul connections, and ask you go to go into more detail. You're also ignoring market size completely with that point.

These flights will succeed in my opinion if NAI are operating on a profitable level. It appears the whole operation, while getting good numbers, has eaten into quite a bit of funds. Hopefully this will be fixed by the MAX ops.

My original point, again, was that it's strange to say that Cork 'needs' Transatlantic flights. Again, it won't contribute much, not in revenue, passenger numbers, or even business links unless a significant service is made available. I'm sure Cork would be just fine without them, and the fight that has been fought is in my opinion, not worth it, as I think fighting for another route, east rather than west, would have been worth alot more. For example, could Swiss have arrived years ago if efforts were put in sooner?

Great to see, I'm not begrudging the service, however I do find it strange that so many think Cork needs this service, as if without it the airport is worthless. If anything, it's main purpose is aesthetic. "We shouldn't be forced to crawl to Dublin or Shannon" is no argument either. Why am I forced to fly from Dublin to go to Greece etc? I'm sure there's a market in Cork or Shannon!

kevinandrew

Wow Air has always had a bit of a poor reputation, as a new airline in a new market I'm sure quite a few people went looking at reviews and were less than impressed. What Wow did was quite smart at the time, Norwegian were fighting to get their Cork service which attracted loads of media and government level attention but were getting nowhere officially so in comes Wow with the next best thing, quick thinking but flawed and dead on arrival the minute Norwegian got approval. 

As for Norwegian's success in Cork, it remains to be seen. The amount of times I've heard, "great loads" and "sold out for days" only for the airline to swing the axe a few months later. It's entirely possible those rumoured loads of 130 passengers and even sold out flights could be true but that doesn't mean they've made a penny on them, remember the aircraft is weight restricted so with 189 seats and only 130 sold out of 150 available, that's a lot of wasted revenue, of course they have no option but it's still a poor start to the operation, a poor start an airline in such financial uncertainty really could have done without. 

Regular MAX flights will fix the load restrictions but will load factors rocket from 130 to 189 to match? They'd want to hope so.

bk

Hmmm... You don't think Norwegian can profitably operate a 737 max out of Cork, yet somehow AerLingus profitably (I assume) operate 757's out of Shannon!

That doesn't make logical sense.

The 737max carries only an extra 11 passengers then the 757, but should be WAY cheaper to operate due to being a more modern, fuel efficient aircraft. The 757 is a bit long in the tooth now. Expensive to fuel and maintain.

As for filling the 11 extra seats. Seems easily doable. Cork is a bigger airport then Shannon (in terms of passenger numbers), with far more people living near by then Shannon and further from DUB. It is hard to see Corkonians not being very happy with not having a 3 hour drive to DUB and expensive parking there if heading to Boston.

Personally I think Norwegian are on a winner here and probably only a matter of time until they add a flight to New York too.

Overall I don't know if Norwegian will be successful at the corporate level. But the 737max and similar aircraft are the perfect aircraft to operate from small airports like Cork and Shannon to the east coast.

Personally I'm delighted to see Cork develop like this.

JCX BXC

Wow, right, where to Start!

bk wrote: »

Hmmm... You don't think Norwegian can profitably operate a 737 max out of Cork, yet somehow AerLingus profitably (I assume) operate 757's out of Shannon!

That doesn't make logical sense.

Well if it doesn't make sense to you, maybe it should just be left there.

Shannon has the following flights in the summer
*Newark - United - Daily (757)
*New York-JFK - Aer Lingus - 6x weekly (757)
*New York-JFK - Delta - Daily (767)
*Boston - Aer Lingus - Daily (757)
*Philadelphia - American Airlines - Daily (757)
*Chicago - United - Daily (757)
*Stewart - Norwegian - 2x weekly (737)
*Providence - Norwegian - 2x weekly (737)

Cork has just managed to scrape a 3x weekly service. You keep going on and tell me about how Shannon has no market and ignoring my points above about factors influencing the market, but you cannot change facts BK, no matter how hard you try.

The 737max carries only an extra 11 passengers then the 757, but should be WAY cheaper to operate due to being a more modern, fuel efficient aircraft. The 757 is a bit long in the tooth now. Expensive to fuel and maintain.

And I'm sure they'll be great once they're used from major US airports to Europe. The 737 MAX is a great part of NAI's operation.

As for filling the 11 extra seats. Seems easily doable. Cork is a bigger airport then Shannon (in terms of passenger numbers), with far more people living near by then Shannon and further from DUB. It is hard to see Corkonians not being very happy with not having a 3 hour drive to DUB and expensive parking there if heading to Boston.

Again, Jesus BK, put down the agenda for a minute at least! I've outlined Shannons services, which included 4x weekly flights with NAI (compared to Corks 3). Are you seriously suggesting that the amount of passengers an airport handles is the only factor influencing services? If that's the case why doesn't NCL has any non charter US services? What about BRS? STN?

On a second, I'd like to remind you that most flights have more American than Irish Pax, especially from Shannon, where the split is somewhere around 80/20. Cut out that 80 and Shannon would likely be down to none or near no US services.

Personally I think Norwegian are on a winner here and probably only a matter of time until they add a flight to New York too.

You've made that clear alright, although part of me is thinking that you want to think that more than anything else.

Overall I don't know if Norwegian will be successful at the corporate level. But the 737max and similar aircraft are the perfect aircraft to operate from small airports like Cork and Shannon to the east coast.

Now I'd agree here completely, however I could see the success being much bigger if they flew to actual big US airports, and offered connections.

Personally I'm delighted to see Cork develop like this.

Me too, however expressing my concern about its viability doesn't change this.

roundymac

@JCX BXC, you won't be happy until the Cork route folds. :mad:

JCX BXC

roundymac wrote: »

@JCX BXC, you won't be happy until the Cork route folds. :mad:

I think it would be great for the route to succeed, however it would be a very strange thing to do to not discuss its merits. I display the same scepticism for Shannon routes too in case anyone trys to suggest otherwise.

bk

JCX BXC wrote: »

Shannon has the following flights in the summer
*Newark - United - Daily (757)
*New York-JFK - Aer Lingus - 6x weekly (757)
*New York-JFK - Delta - Daily (767)
*Boston - Aer Lingus - Daily (757)
*Philadelphia - American Airlines - Daily (757)
*Chicago - United - Daily (757)
*Stewart - Norwegian - 2x weekly (737)
*Providence - Norwegian - 2x weekly (737)

Well thank you for proving my point for me

If SNN can support all that, then clearly Cork can easily support one or two routes to the East coast.

Cork clearly has a much larger catchment area then Shannon. That is clearly proven by despite all of the above, Cork Airport still carries significantly more passengers per year then Shannon. So clearly there is the population to support a few routes.

BTW you conveniently forgot to mention all the issues Cork Airport has. The short runway that makes TATL ops difficult, Cork still beholden to the DAA, Western politics trying to limit Cork, etc. And yet despite all of the above Cork still manages to carry more passenger then Shannon :P

For me I logically see big latent demand for TATL services from Cork and the 737max finally allows it to start to meet this demand.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Cork has just managed to scrape a 3x weekly service. You keep going on and tell me about how Shannon has no market and ignoring my points above about factors influencing the market, but you cannot change facts BK, no matter how hard you try.

Where exactly did I say Shannon doesn't have a market?!! :eek: I would never say that, as it clearly does.

What I'm saying is that Cork clearly has an untapped market and if Shannons catchment area can support TATL routes, then Cork's much larger catchement area clearly can too.

JCX BXC wrote: »

And I'm sure they'll be great once they're used from major US airports to Europe. The 737 MAX is a great part of NAI's operation.

They already do with their 787's, JFK, Logan, LAX, Las Vegas, etc.

The 737 is a different type of service and as Ryanair has shown you don't have to fly to the major airports (yes I know they are starting to do some now) or interconnect for it to be successful.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Again, Jesus BK, put down the agenda for a minute at least!

Hey!! Cop on! What agenda? For the people of Cork to have international flights. For the people of the Shannon area and Dublin to have more options of destinations, lower ticket prices and greater competition!

That is my agenda and I'll happily admit it. So what is your agenda? :mad:

JCX BXC wrote: »

On a second, I'd like to remind you that most flights have more American than Irish Pax, especially from Shannon, where the split is somewhere around 80/20. Cut out that 80 and Shannon would likely be down to none or near no US services.

I'd like some proof of that please?

Also I'll say that once the M20 is built, Cork will be well placed to steal a lot of that tourist business. Start in Cork and make your way up the Atlantic corridor, etc.

JCX BXC wrote: »

Me too, however expressing my concern about its viability doesn't change this.

We will have to wait and see, but I think you are dead wrong and I think Norwegian will be well placed to grow TATL services from Cork.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Well thank you for proving my point for me

If SNN can support all that, then clearly Cork can easily support one or two routes to the East coast.

Cork clearly has a much larger catchment area then Shannon. That is clearly proven by despite all of the above, Cork Airport still carries significantly more passengers per year then Shannon. So clearly there is the population to support a few routes.

BTW you conveniently forgot to mention all the issues Cork Airport has. The short runway that makes TATL ops difficult, Cork still beholden to the DAA, Western politics trying to limit Cork, etc. And yet despite all of the above Cork still manages to carry more passenger then Shannon :P

For me I logically see big latent demand for TATL services from Cork and the 737max finally allows it to start to meet this demand.



Where exactly did I say Shannon doesn't have a market?!! :eek: I would never say that, as it clearly does.

What I'm saying is that Cork clearly has an untapped market and if Shannons catchment area can support TATL routes, then Cork's much larger catchement area clearly can too.



They already do with their 787's, JFK, Logan, LAX, Las Vegas, etc.

The 737 is a different type of service and as Ryanair has shown you don't have to fly to the major airports (yes I know they are starting to do some now) or interconnect for it to be successful.




Hey!! Cop on! What agenda? For the people of Cork to have international flights. For the people of the Shannon area and Dublin to have more options of destinations, lower ticket prices and greater competition!

That is my agenda and I'll happily admit it. So what is your agenda? :mad:



I'd like some proof of that please?

Also I'll say that once the M20 is built, Cork will be well placed to steal a lot of that tourist business. Start in Cork and make your way up the Atlantic corridor, etc.



We will have to wait and see, but I think you are dead wrong and I think Norwegian will be well placed to grow TATL services from Cork.

If SNN can support all that then Cork should be able to support similar or more. I'd imagine a fair amount of people flying to the US from Cork/Waterford/Kerry would fly from Dublin given the state of the N20 (not for Kerry) and the availability of the Aircoach.

On a similar note, I can't understand how Shannon's transatlantic services are so seasonal. Norwegian aside, 20 weekly services to New York during the summer and 0 from January-March? Chicago, Philly able for daily during summer but 0 weekly during winter??

I think if a relatively decent carrier, with business seats and decent T/A service to the major airports starts from Cork if it can handle the A321LR will do well.

The M20 can't do much to Shannon except with transatlantic, which Cork hasn't an established base with yet. Year round Shannon has LHR with EI, Stobart to BHX/EDI, and London/Manchester/Poland/sun routes with Ryanair. Who knows if the Lufthansa/SAS etc. experiemnts will work out similar to Wow at Cork.

The M20 will massively benefit Cork Airport especially if a decent bus service from Limerick -> Cork -> Cork Airport is established. The **** road is gone and Cork Airport will be 1 hour from Limerick.

zetalambda

I wasn't surprised that WOW pulled out. They tried to get in there before Norwegian advertising transatlantic flights from Cork. It would be like operating a bus route from Cork to Dublin via Sligo and at a higher price than the direct route! I thought it was doomed from day one.
Cork (and Shannon) could easily support more European and transatlantic routes. About 30% of Dublin airports passengers are from Munster, that's about 9 million journeys and i'm sure a lot of those people would rather fly out of Cork or Shannon if that option was available and at the right price.

marno21

zetalambda wrote: »

I wasn't surprised that WOW pulled out. They tried to get in there before Norwegian advertising transatlantic flights from Cork. It would be like operating a bus route from Cork to Dublin via Sligo and at a higher price than the direct route! I thought it was doomed from day one.
Cork (and Shannon) could easily support more European and transatlantic routes. About 30% of Dublin airports passengers are from Munster, that's about 9 million journeys and i'm sure a lot of those people would rather fly out of Cork or Shannon if that option was available and at the right price.

In fairness, flying to the US via Keflavik isn't that indirect, especially given that Norwegian's new 737 MAX 8's aren't ETOPS certified and have to fly close to Iceland anyway (not sure if there'll be MAXs flying from Cork before ETOPS certification).

Flying via LHR/CDG/AMS is a lot more indirect. WOW Air also seem to have gained a reputation locally for having passengers sit bolt upright on concrete slabs for several hours with no entertainment/food/water.

JCX BXC

I'm sure the M20 will just throw all traffic to Cork, and Shannon won't fight back anybit whatsoever

Without wishing to get into a debate this late, ill say this. For some reason, Ye assume that just because Shannon has Transatlantic flights, Cork has an even larger market for them. Being honest this shows a blatant lack of knowledge on how markets work. Using your method only of Population-Routes, ill ask you this, why does Belfast fall into the same category as Cork? It has an arguably larger market, as proved by Norwegian putting more flights there alone, yet had lost its only scheduled US flight. Belfast has twice the population of Cork and a much larger population in NI than Cork and Shannons metro population combined.

You may re-read my point on what affects the market too.

And seeing things through a one way glass is no way for a debate either, I'd ask for some reasonable counter point, this isn't a game of who can make the most extreme and ridiculous point before the topic ends.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Hmmm... You don't think Norwegian can profitably operate a 737 max out of Cork, yet somehow AerLingus profitably (I assume) operate 757's out of Shannon!

That doesn't make logical sense.

The 737max carries only an extra 11 passengers then the 757, but should be WAY cheaper to operate due to being a more modern, fuel efficient aircraft. The 757 is a bit long in the tooth now. Expensive to fuel and maintain.

As for filling the 11 extra seats. Seems easily doable. Cork is a bigger airport then Shannon (in terms of passenger numbers), with far more people living near by then Shannon and further from DUB. It is hard to see Corkonians not being very happy with not having a 3 hour drive to DUB and expensive parking there if heading to Boston.

Personally I think Norwegian are on a winner here and probably only a matter of time until they add a flight to New York too.

Overall I don't know if Norwegian will be successful at the corporate level. But the 737max and similar aircraft are the perfect aircraft to operate from small airports like Cork and Shannon to the east coast.

Personally I'm delighted to see Cork develop like this.

Aer Lingus and indeed the other airlines at Shannon all offer business class on their services - that makes a massive difference to the profitability of the offering.

While I can see that there is a market for low fare no-frills flights to the Eastern USA, it's a whole different question as to whether they will be profitable or not in the long term.

no.8

JCX BXC wrote: »

roundymac wrote: »

Of coarse it needs it, why should we have to haul ourselves up to Dub and SNN.:mad:

How is that any reason? Should Cork also have a route to Dubai, because you don't want to haul your way to Dublin? Should Kerry have the same?

It's probably the same people that said Norweigan really wanted Dublin and were just using Cork.

They were the comments in the Media, the comments on here were suggesting they were using Cork as political leverage to get a licence for NAI, I'm sure they'll have no problem staying around in Cork if they're making money.

One angle. Take a look at the number of large multinationals based in Cork and you might see why it makes sense how a direct airbridge to the states could be sustainable. The hourly costs for employees is astronomical, not to forget adding in the trip time for a trip up to Dublin / Shannon (if available). 

p.s. I'm not from Cork nor do I live in Ireland but that's my justification for possible sustainability.

JCX BXC

no.8 wrote: »

Take a look at the number of large multinationals based in Cork and you might see why it makes sense to keep a direct airbridge to the states.
I'm not from Cork nor do I live in Ireland but it's fairly clear.

A direct airbridge?

It's not about maintaining a public service, its about whether a profit can be made by respective airlines.

Wow Air was a massage failure at Cork. Norwegian seem to be doing okay but not exceptionally well by any means. Which is a good thing.