Season 7 Episode 4 "The Spoils of War" - "Non book readers"

RDM_83 again

Bacchus wrote: »

I posted this in the season 6 episode 8 thread last year...



I guess I was wrong... there were still complaints...

Because its not showing her as a highly skilled assassin, its showing her as a super kick ass warrior thats able to defeat one of the best fighters in the show thats twice her size using a completely inappropriate weapon.

People in the middle ages weren't idiots and there was a constant change and response in relation to arms and armour, swords like Arya used were a thing when fire-arms had started making full armour less common (I think she "wins" one of the rounds by hitting her on her armour ).

This could be dismissed as nit picking but IMO it also looks unbelievable in the show which is the important thing.

I don't really like the whole super assassin idea anyway but what I really don't like is the way the show is just more and more fan service when certain characters are involved, thats the opposite of what it used to be.

goose2005

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This could be dismissed as nit picking but IMO it also looks unbelievable in the show which is the important thing.

I don't really like the whole super assassin idea anyway but what I really don't like is the way the show is just more and more fan service when certain characters are involved, thats the opposite of what it used to be.

Exactly. I mean, the way Brienne was swinging the sword, if she had made contact with Arya's head she'd have killed her, blunt or not.

J. Marston

david75 wrote: »

The one that did manage to hit drogon didn't do a huge amount of damage. They're going to need loads of them. Probably hundreds to have any real effect.

One bolt grounded him though and as we saw in the fighting pit, he can do damage on the ground too but is a big target for spears, arrows and crossbows.

david75

J. Marston wrote: »

One bolt grounded him though and as we saw in the fighting pit, he can do damage on the ground too but is a big target for spears, arrows and crossbows.

None of those seem to bother him though. The first volley from the archers he shows his belly as he flies over. Like FU that's not gonna work kinda thing

CMOTDibbler

lawred2 wrote: »

Regulated by the central bank of ???

what does normal mean in the context of a supernatural medieval fantasy world?

Banking transcends even magic.

Don't see where regulation comes in btw. Stupidity maybe.

tedpan

With aria's awareness, why did she show her skill in front of little finger?

Little finger is class

delly

So I had to take time to watch it again, as a couple of things didn't sit right with me in what the episode should have been.

The first is what I perceived to be the awkward reunion scenes. We have been awaiting the return of the family to their home for so long, yet when Arya and Sansa meet, it just seems awkward. Bring Bran into the mix and it adds a whole new level of crazy. As the viewers, I think we wanted more, wanted recognition of how far they have come, yet Sansa doesn't even ask what happened to Arya. It's only upon watching it again I think that this is what the writers want us to feel, basically showing that the Starks and the world has changed so much, what we wanted from the end of season 1 can never truly happen.

The second thing is the battle scenes. They were good, very good in fact, but not 'Battle of the bastards' good. If that episode had not happened first, then I'd be saying this was fantastic, but when putting the two side by side, I felt that BOTB had more weight, more reality. This is not because one had a dragon and the other didn't, but I felt that the CGI in this one became more noticeable.

Anyhow I don't want to come across as nit picking as I really am enjoying the season so far, but just thought I'd express my thoughts.

Cina

delly wrote: »

So I had to take time to watch it again, as a couple of things didn't sit right with me in what the episode should have been.

The first is what I perceived to be the awkward reunion scenes. We have been awaiting the return of the family to their home for so long, yet when Arya and Sansa meet, it just seems awkward. Bring Bran into the mix and it adds a whole new level of crazy. As the viewers, I think we wanted more, wanted recognition of how far they have come, yet Sansa doesn't even ask what happened to Arya. It's only upon watching it again I think that this is what the writers want us to feel, basically showing that the Starks and the world has changed so much, what we wanted from the end of season 1 can never truly happen.

The second thing is the battle scenes. They were good, very good in fact, but not 'Battle of the bastards' good. If that episode had not happened first, then I'd be saying this was fantastic, but when putting the two side by side, I felt that BOTB had more weight, more reality. This is not because one had a dragon and the other didn't, but I felt that the CGI in this one became more noticeable.

Anyhow I don't want to come across as nit picking as I really am enjoying the season so far, but just thought I'd express my thoughts.

Disagree on the battle scene, I thought it was much better than Battle of the B*stards. I found BotB a bit ludicrous because of the 'wall' of bodies that seemed to come out of nowhere. Plus there was only one side you wanted to win.

Most of BotB wasn't CGI'd, whereas it's difficult not to CGi a ... well... a bleedin' dragon, but if you watch the making of, pretty much ALL the fire and explosions are real which I found very impressive. I also felt far more invested in it, because in BotB it was always obvious Jon would win whereas in this there were characters on both sides who I didn't want to die and it felt like all of them could at any point (Jaime, Bronn, Dany, Drogon!).

I also, in general, just found it far more spectacular.

Hardhome was a much better battle scene than BotB and I think this is much more comparable to that. At the end of the day, this is still a fantasy show so having the dragon in there to properly f*ck with the standard medieval war battle was really cool.

Syphonax

goose2005 wrote: »

Exactly. I mean, the way Brienne was swinging the sword, if she had made contact with Arya's head she'd have killed her, blunt or not.

its a bit farcical how so many of the 'kids' in this show are the great leaders, sword fighters etc I thnk it was in the first episode in S7 where John Snow needed that little girl in Castle Black to stand up and make a great speech on his behalf so he would get elected and have the backing of the other lords in the north, she was like 8 years old or summit

Syphonax

Syphonax wrote: »

its a bit farcical how so many of the 'kids' in this show are the great leaders, sword fighters etc I thnk it was in the first episode in S7 where John Snow needed that little girl in Castle Black to stand up and make a great speech on his behalf so he would get elected and have the backing of the other lords in the north, she was like 8 years old or summit

I know this is non-book readers, but in the books everyone is around 5 years younger than the TV and still does this.
I think its GRRM take on youth in medieval times, or else he is a right creep who enjoys writing about 13-14 years olds getting married and having the ride !!!

DM_7

Syphonax wrote: »

its a bit farcical how so many of the 'kids' in this show are the great leaders, sword fighters etc I thnk it was in the first episode in S7 where John Snow needed that little girl in Castle Black to stand up and make a great speech on his behalf so he would get elected and have the backing of the other lords in the north, she was like 8 years old or summit

The leaders are all dying through the wars and battles. Its a show based around lineage where the head role of a group passes to the next in line (unless a Euron is around).

fluke

Jaysus... It's amazing how in the last 10-15 years everyone has become so hyper sensitive to special effects, pacing, timelines etc. Like it's almost immediately upon viewing..

I wonder if the main reason people have a hard on for 80's nostalgia is possibly because we never questioned things then and let our imaginations run wild.

From re-watching all episodes again, I have been home from work sick this week!

The Lannister army that sacked Highgarden took all the gold and emptied the stock and granary in the castle and took that.
It was then said that Tarly weasel face and Tarly mega shoulder guy and Bronn go round up the "small folk" and their own harvets. This I imagine would take a few weeks at best.
it was said by Weasel face in the opening that all gold was in KL along with the main body of the army, if you look at normal maps of westeros, as in the one in the opening, you see blackwater is very close to KL, as in a day or three at most marching. I imagine people in KL could see the dragon at this stage!!

All that was left was Jamie who seemed to come back to the back, the Tarleys and Bronn who were discussing bringing up the rear and flogging the slowest, i imagine that this must only be 1/5 or maybe 1/10 off the main army.

Yes, i think things in the North will be odd, the show is doing a lot to leave things to viewers, such as the Stark girls saying they know lots happened to each other, but will talk later (off screen)

spacecoyote

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Because its not showing her as a highly skilled assassin, its showing her as a super kick ass warrior thats able to defeat one of the best fighters in the show thats twice her size using a completely inappropriate weapon.

People in the middle ages weren't idiots and there was a constant change and response in relation to arms and armour, swords like Arya used were a thing when fire-arms had started making full armour less common (I think she "wins" one of the rounds by hitting her on her armour ).

This could be dismissed as nit picking but IMO it also looks unbelievable in the show which is the important thing.

I don't really like the whole super assassin idea anyway but what I really don't like is the way the show is just more and more fan service when certain characters are involved, thats the opposite of what it used to be.

Was reading an article by a fencing professional who was saying that, although Arya is very skilled, etc... that they made one big flaw to the choreography, that it wouldn't be possible for her to parry a blow from Brienne's sword with needle, that they are literally made for a jab with the pointy end, and would shatter from the impact of a long-sword

Adamocovic

spacecoyote wrote: »

Was reading an article by a fencing professional who was saying that, although Arya is very skilled, etc... that they made one big flaw to the choreography, that it wouldn't be possible for her to parry a blow from Brienne's sword with needle, that they are literally made for a jab with the pointy end, and would shatter from the impact of a long-sword

I'm all for realism but once you get to the point of analysing a fantasy adventure shows sparring scene by getting in fencing professionals I think you may be going too far and sucking the fun out of it.

Avatar MIA

spacecoyote wrote: »

Was reading an article by a fencing professional who was saying that, although Arya is very skilled, etc... that they made one big flaw to the choreography, that it wouldn't be possible for her to parry a blow from Brienne's sword with needle, that they are literally made for a jab with the pointy end, and would shatter from the impact of a long-sword

May as well get an aeronautics engineer in to explain that none of the dragons would possibly fly.

Dragons are magic - that's why they can fly. Maybe the same with Needle.

EagererBeaver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVgVB3qsySQ

Evade

EagererBeaver wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVgVB3qsySQ

You only need to put sVgVB3qsySQ in the youtube tags.

fluke

Avatar MIA wrote: »

May as well get an aeronautics engineer in to explain that none of the dragons would possibly fly.

Dragons are magic - that's why they can fly. Maybe the same with Needle.

Yeah I hear about these professionals and all I think is that they're fucking know-it-alls

EagererBeaver

Evade wrote: »

You only need to put sVgVB3qsySQ in the youtube tags.

Thanks, it was doing my balls in trying to do it on the phone and just gave up!

RDM_83 again

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'm all for realism but once you get to the point of analysing a fantasy adventure shows sparring scene by getting in fencing professionals I think you may be going too far and sucking the fun out of it.

You can be a-historic or "unrealistic" all you want, it has to fit in the universe thats been built though and it should not look obviously flawed to the casual observer, I don't complain that they are probably slashing to much and the lack of "sword wrestling", however when a person who's as slight as Arya "wins" a fight by tapping someones armour with something thats clearly got no force behind it its not weird to go hmmmmmm. You don't have to watch somebody tearing these things apart in slow motion on youtube, its obvious the first time you watch it.

To me the thing about GoT is that it was good because it inverted fantasy tropes and had a realistic (in reference to itself) Grim-Darkness, the fan service thats going on in relation to certain characters now is exactly what GoT is not meant to be, a segment of the fan base loves this style of thing but its not how the show started out for the first few seasons and its not how the books are (I know wrong thread).

Syphonax

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I know this is non-book readers, but in the books everyone is around 5 years younger than the TV and still does this.
I think its GRRM take on youth in medieval times, or else he is a right creep who enjoys writing about 13-14 years olds getting married and having the ride !!!

Really, 5 years younger than the books, that would put some of them in nappies in that case lol

Syphonax

DM_7 wrote: »

The leaders are all dying through the wars and battles. Its a show based around lineage where the head role of a group passes to the next in line (unless a Euron is around).

In Romans times when the Emperor had his head chopped off you would be sure that his offspring suffered been thrown into the Tiber. And whenever they fled death would follow. While the young characters have led torments in the TV series I still cant take how they 'survived' in such an inhospital world. Does really add up fo r me

ohnonotgmail

RDM_83 again wrote: »

You can be a-historic or "unrealistic" all you want, it has to fit in the universe thats been built though and it should not look obviously flawed to the casual observer, I don't complain that they are probably slashing to much and the lack of "sword wrestling", however when a person who's as slight as Arya "wins" a fight by tapping someones armour with something thats clearly got no force behind it its not weird to go hmmmmmm. You don't have to watch somebody tearing these things apart in slow motion on youtube, its obvious the first time you watch it.

To me the thing about GoT is that it was good because it inverted fantasy tropes and had a realistic (in reference to itself) Grim-Darkness, the fan service thats going on in relation to certain characters now is exactly what GoT is not meant to be, a segment of the fan base loves this style of thing but its not how the show started out for the first few seasons and its not how the books are (I know wrong thread).

do you think she should have driven her sword into brienne just to ram the point home? She could have done this at several points but chose not to because, well, its only sparring. When brienne was sparring with podrick it was sufficient for her to just tap him with her sword to show she had won.

seamus

DM_7 wrote: »

The leaders are all dying through the wars and battles. Its a show based around lineage where the head role of a group passes to the next in line (unless a Euron is around).

As well as that they're hardly lording it over great empires. It's more akin to the clans of ancient Ireland, where - certainly in legendary terms - it was normal for sons to take leadership of the clan after the death of their fathers, and in their mid to late-teens.

In more recent history it's not been uncommon for rulers to be appointed as young children, but they didn't formally take control until they were 18. However, we're talking about larger countries and empires, and more recent history. Not small domains in medieval/pre-medieval times.

RDM_83 again

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

do you think she should have driven her sword into brienne just to ram the point home? She could have done this at several points but chose not to because, well, its only sparring. When brienne was sparring with podrick it was sufficient for her to just tap him with her sword to show she had won.

Just rewatched the scene there, every time pod looses he is on the ground helpless.
On rewatching it I just think its a badly choreographed scene now, part of it may be that the size difference is just too large and they have set it up that she is using a weapon without any reach so they have to set it up that arya is very close to Brienne.
1.40-1.44 has Arya step forward as Brienne stays still, 2.10-2.20 she keeps parrying this big f-ck off sword wielded by a very strong person (people might not sword fight but everybody has an instinctive grasp of force, momentum and strength), end bit with the dagger 20 seconds before this we saw how Brienne reacts to some one close, big ole kick, 2 minutes before this we saw her use her legs and fists on pod 26-28 secs particularly relevant.

The scene feels slowed down and choreographed, obviously this is done a lot for filming but it shouldn't be obvious.

I know people will think this is nitpicking or over analysing, expecting internal consistency about something the show has actually made a proper point of highlighting in the past really isn't though.

To me this highlights how the show has changed, a few seasons back the level of "realism/grittyness" is far higher and the level of fan service and plot armour was far lower.

RDM_83 again

seamus wrote: »

As well as that they're hardly lording it over great empires. It's more akin to the clans of ancient Ireland, where - certainly in legendary terms - it was normal for sons to take leadership of the clan after the death of their fathers, and in their mid to late-teens.

Its obviously fantasy so this stuff doesn't count but I always thought it was much more drawing on The War of the Roses period at least for the stuff around Kings Landing, the constant talk about Houses, the trying to draw vassals to fight under a factions flag, disputed succession, the financial and banking stuff.

J. Marston

Or maybe Brienne was holding back?

ohnonotgmail

J. Marston wrote: »

Or maybe Brienne was holding back?

she seemed quite annoyed that arya was able to beat her. Hence the kick in the chest. I doubt she was holding back.

EagererBeaver

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its obviously fantasy so this stuff doesn't count but I always thought it was much more drawing on The War of the Roses period at least for the stuff around Kings Landing, the constant talk about Houses, the trying to draw vassals to fight under a factions flag, disputed succession, the financial and banking stuff.

Martin has said the Wars of the Roses has been one of his biggest influences.

pickarooney

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she seemed quite annoyed that arya was able to beat her. Hence the kick in the chest. I doubt she was holding back.

Of course she was holding back. Otherwise she would have just swept her sword in arcs in front of her and cut Arya to pieces. The point isn't that Arya 'beat' Brienne but that she has mastered a style of fighting uncommon in the North (and useless in a battlefield).

ohnonotgmail

pickarooney wrote: »

Of course she was holding back. Otherwise she would have just swept her sword in arcs in front of her and cut Arya to pieces. The point isn't that Arya 'beat' Brienne but that she has mastered a style of fighting uncommon in the North (and useless in a battlefield).

assuming Arya just stood there. She had her final fight with the waif in the dark. Avoiding a heavy sword should be a piece of cake.

Yester

I'm really enjoying Game of thrones but at this stage I don't know who I'm shouting for.

Arya vs Brienne

Jamie vs Dany

Bronn vs Drogon

I love both Arya and Brienne and I was shouting for Arya but at the same time I was delighted when Brienne gave her a good kick.

In the heat of battle I was def shouting for Bronn to take the dragon down.

I always shout for the underdog but when Jamie was charging towards Dany I didn't know what to think.

Great show but I wish the whole white walker storyline didn't exist and they just had to fight it out amongst themselves without a common enemy looming.

Rubber_Soul

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

she seemed quite annoyed that arya was able to beat her. Hence the kick in the chest. I doubt she was holding back.

Do you think Brienne was actually trying to kill Arya? If not, she was holding back.

EagererBeaver

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

Do you think Brienne was actually trying to kill Arya? If not, she was holding back.

It was a spar, using a training sword. She obviously wasn't trying to kill her but that doesn't mean she wasn't going all out.

ohnonotgmail

Rubber_Soul wrote: »

Do you think Brienne was actually trying to kill Arya? If not, she was holding back.

Do you think arya was trying to kill brienne? she had the opportunity to put a blade to her throat.

Tell me how

EagererBeaver wrote:

It was a spar, using a training sword. She obviously wasn't trying to kill her but that doesn't mean she wasn't going all out.

ohnonotgmail wrote:

Do you think arya was trying to kill brienne? she had the opportunity to put a blade to her throat.

They. Weren't. Fighting.

ohnonotgmail

Tell me how wrote: »

They. Weren't. Fighting.

We.know. It.is.possible.to.spar.and.not.hold.back.at.the.same.time.

Tell me how

ohnonotgmail wrote:

We.know. It.is.possible.to.spar.and.not.hold.back.at.the.same.time.

Yes. It's called fighting.

corkie

Maisie Williams is right handed but has to act Left handed for Arya, which makes her fight sequences even more impressive!

XsApollo

I can't wait for the next episode ,
I don't care if Drogon dies from a mosquito bite or Tyrion magically teleports to where Jamie is and pulls him out the water.
I just want to see what's going to happen.
It's a fantasy show and dissecting the finer intricate details and letting it bug me would ruin it.
Just go with the flow.

delly

I'm hoping the fight between Brienne and Arya might lead to a mutual respect/collaboration, especially with little finger watching over. They both know that he is not to be trusted.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Dunno if it's relevant (or true), but was watching an old episode there and one of Craster's daughters said that he had 99 sons. Obviously them being all 'offered to the gods' means that there should be at least 99 whitewalkers (with CGI budget I imagine the number would be less).

Man., the writing has gotten so much worse..its in danger of ruining its legacy..everything is a childish innuendo..its disappointing..

david75

so..emmm..the next episode is out there...

Hande hoche!

This episode was one of my favourite of the series. Probably the only one where I felt bad for the Lannisters. Their army was completely out classed.