Season 7 Episode 4 "The Spoils of War" - "Book readers"

Mr.Prodston

For a long time, I was one of those, well perhaps one of us here, that was an avid book fan and went out of my way to find little things that were different and see them as faults. Season 5 was probably the peak for this as the transition from book cannon to television was at it's most clear but for season 6 and especially in the lead up to this season I read nothing, disengaged to an extent and I'm properly enjoying the show.

Not knowing what's coming. Or more importantly, what's supposed to be coming is so refreshing and enjoyable. These 4 episodes so far have been exceptional as were the latter half of last season

I guess you could say I've made peace with the fact the show will be finished first, and do you know what?

When we get scenes like the final 10 minutes of this episode then I'm very much okay with that.

Absolutely spectacular television!

(Obviously I still want the book, more than anything :pac:)

Mr.Prodston

Also, considering that Dany is comfortable with burning countless people alive and allowing the Dothraki to wreak havoc on the ground, is she any better than the rest of them?

It's just another method of inflicting violence, to win a war, so that SHE can sit on the Throne instead of another Queen. Those people she killed are essentially slaves in all but name. What choice would they have had to fight or go to war?

A leader who truly believed in doing things the right way wouldn't fly into battle to burn others to a crisp?

Mad Queen ahoy?

It's an opinion I've held for years though. It's a shame we didn't learn a little more about that cave art and white walkers etc while they were in there.

Avatar MIA

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Mad Queen ahoy?

No, by killing their enemies by the most expedient method it saved the lives of her own soldiers. They take precedence.

RobbingBandit

Qyburn made that spear gun launcher, if the tips were not covered in poison I'll eat my and anyone else's hats.*





* Provided said hats are made of delicious cake.

Gbear

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't rule that out from happening, even if it is revealed that they are cousins.

*She's his aunt.

She's Rhaegar's sister, he's Rhaegar's son.

Johan Quiet Housewife wrote: »

Reading the same criticism again and again is a lot less fun than watching the same surprise attack thing again and again. It happens once or twice a season, it's always done spectacularly well and appreciably raises the stakes and advances the plot. Sequences like this one or Hardhome are massively complex and well executed bits of TELEVISION, which is the medium. They're not particularly satisfying as object lessons in military tactics, no, but that's a fairly trite criticism imo. The Handmaids Tale wasn't a laugh riot but pointing that our week after week wouldn't be making any kind of valid point about it.

The show is not the books. Each have strengths and weaknesses specific to the medium or as a result of the creative voices behind them. The show is necessarily different than it was in the earliest seasons. It's changed in good and bad ways but overall it still works brilliantly and it's far from brainless, it's nonsense saying that this one niggly aspect undermines the whole rest of the show.

There are loooooads of military history documentaries and series for anyone who's like, way smarter than the braindead target audience who don't care about scouts to the point it ruins their enjoyment of one of the best TV shows of the history of the medium.

It making sense and being entertaining aren't mutually exclusive.

The issue is that they've written themselves into stupid situations and that they don't bother too much with world building, consistency or internal logic because they can load it with tits and explosions and people will still watch.

It's not style over substance. There's plenty of style and they have plenty to work with as far as substance goes but they choose not to. Maybe they can't be arsed, maybe they come up with an idea and instead of adapting it into the story so that it makes sense they just throw it straight in without bothering.

I don't know.

Really good episode this time around. The only issue is one of context. Why hasn't Danny been doing this all along?
She didn't learn anything from Jon. He told her what any dope could've known and other people have told her repeatedly.
It was just a Deus Ex Machina so that she wouldn't have already wrapped up the war in the south within the first episode because as we've seen, she kicks serious arse.

Actually, they probably could've done it the other way around with her being aggressive at the start, but Drogon taking the ballista shot to the armpit making her more cautious. That would've done away with Euron's Magic Fleet and got us to the same place.

If they can load it on a truck I'm sure KL is bristling with the things at this stage. Dragons won't be any help there.

Dyr

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah this aul trope :rolleyes:
Dragons appearing in a show with dragons is not a Deus Ex Machina

shows what you know about tropes chief

A show with dragons where suddenly there appear dragon killing AA balistas, now thats a ****ing deus ex machina par excellence

Not to mention the cold war level stockpiles of wildfire blowing up buildings, and good old ser zombie. Qyburn is a walking talking deus ex machina at this stage, bless him.

At least they had the sense to use "cos magic" for their earlier spectacular reversals.

Yakuza

Mr.Prodston wrote: »

Also, considering that Dany is comfortable with burning countless people alive and allowing the Dothraki to wreak havoc on the ground, is she any better than the rest of them?

It's just another method of inflicting violence, to win a war, so that SHE can sit on the Throne instead of another Queen. Those people she killed are essentially slaves in all but name. What choice would they have had to fight or go to war?

A leader who truly believed in doing things the right way wouldn't fly into battle to burn others to a crisp?

Mad Queen ahoy?

It's an opinion I've held for years though. It's a shame we didn't learn a little more about that cave art and white walkers etc while they were in there.

There's a huge moral difference between engaging an enemy force in open ground and laying waste to them when holed up in a city with tens of thousands of innocent civilians/non-combatants being killed as collateral damage. As long as the horde doesn't go into rape-and-pillage mode on the smallfolk, she won't lose popularity.
The army led by Ser Gregor in the War of the Five Kings generally made sh1te of any smallfolk they came across, trying to rule by fear and intimidation. Dany would be wise not to repeat that.

Savage Tyrant

It baffles me why some of you continue to watch the series.... Complaints and criticism make up the majority of some posters contributions to these threads.

eeguy

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's pretty much accepted that it was Joffrey that sent the catspaw. He is the only one dumb enough to send a guy with a Valyrion blade that can lead back to him to kill a child in a coma.

Yep, it was basically confirmed in the books. He gave a bad assassin a knife that was easily traced to Robert.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Gbear wrote: »

It making sense and being entertaining aren't mutually exclusive.

The issue is that they've written themselves into stupid situations and that they don't bother too much with world building, consistency or internal logic because they can load it with tits and explosions and people will still watch.

It's not style over substance. There's plenty of style and they have plenty to work with as far as substance goes but they choose not to. Maybe they can't be arsed, maybe they come up with an idea and instead of adapting it into the story so that it makes sense they just throw it straight in without bothering.

I don't know.

Really good episode this time around. The only issue is one of context. Why hasn't Danny been doing this all along?
She didn't learn anything from Jon. He told her what any dope could've known and other people have told her repeatedly.
It was just a Deus Ex Machina so that she wouldn't have already wrapped up the war in the south within the first episode because as we've seen, she kicks serious arse.

Actually, they probably could've done it the other way around with her being aggressive at the start, but Drogon taking the ballista shot to the armpit making her more cautious. That would've done away with Euron's Magic Fleet and got us to the same place.

If they can load it on a truck I'm sure KL is bristling with the things at this stage. Dragons won't be any help there.

Except that her motivations were clearly explained. She arrived in a seemingly unassailable position with armies and allies coming out her ears. She's not as naive as her brother was and rightly scoffed at the notion that the common folk will rise up in joy at her arrival. She listened to the counsel of people who knew the country and decided that dragons and Dothraki laying siege to cities and masacring home grown troops would be short sighted and counterproductive. She's very aware of her father's legacy and how it'll colour people's perception of her. She listens when people point out that it would be very risky for her to put herself in the battle by flying a Dragon into it, and she's the only one who can do that. All of this was explicitly stated in dialogue, and all of it makes sense.

The situation changed, everyone was caught on the hop by Euron (who, yeah, definitely pushes the suspension of disbelief ) and now she's adjusted her approach. Her being aggressive at the start would have meant that Yara, Ellaria, the snakes etc would have had to be dispatched some other way, and her meeting Jon be worked in somewhere too. Now she has far fewer allies, fewer ships, she's aware of the threat in the North. It's not the same endpoint at all.

She's always tended to listen to and act on the advice of her counsel, and then get incredibly pissed off if she starts to lose and whip out the dragons in an act of decisive but risky violence. And now that character flaw has landed her in a tight corner, if it weren't for who she is I'd say a possibly fatal one. That's consistent with how the show has worked since Ned met his end.

eeguy

Bambi wrote: »

shows what you know about tropes chief

A show with dragons where suddenly there appear dragon killing AA balistas, now thats a ****ing deus ex machina par excellence

Not to mention the cold war level stockpiles of wildfire blowing up buildings, and good old ser zombie. Qyburn is a walking talking deus ex machina at this stage, bless him.

At least they had the sense to use "cos magic" for their earlier spectacular reversals.

You do realise the books will probably follow a similar path.
In the books they had Tyrion make a secret massive chain to drape across the Blackwater. Equally as ludicrous. At least it was more believeable in the the show

wp_rathead

Bambi wrote: »

A show with dragons where suddenly there appear dragon killing AA balistas, now thats a ****ing deus ex machina par excellence

Not to mention the cold war level stockpiles of wildfire blowing up buildings, and good old ser zombie. Qyburn is a walking talking deus ex machina at this stage, bless him.

Ah c'mon Bambi
Delevoping a big fnck of Ballista isn't totally far-fetched- I mean The Nightswatch had one that killed Giants and I don't remember people moaning

The Wildfire was seen back in season 2 when Tyrion had the Pyromancer's make it, don't think all of it was used Vs Stannis (plus Mad Kings stash was mentioned)

Regarding resurrecting Mountain, it was established that he was kicked out of Masters for experimenting on people so again not totally implausible within the narrative

Nody

Riddle101 wrote: »

Very interesting hearing Cersei mentioning the Golden Company last night. They're supposed to be the fiercest sellsword company I believe. They've about 10,000 soliders and the also have War Elephants. They're also aligned with Aegon Targayren and Jon Coninnington in the books. But I could see Cersei hiring them all the same.

You need to refresh your book knowledge my friend; the golden company has already arrived to Westeros in the Stormlands with Aegon Targaryeon to make him fit to be the partner of Daenerys and have taken Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone. Hence chances of Cersei hiring them in the books is pretty much nil short of one or more captains deciding to backstab the others and betray them.

Dyr

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah c'mon Bambi
Delevoping a big fnck of Ballista isn't totally far-fetched- I mean The Nightswatch had one that killed Giants and I don't remember people moaning

The Wildfire was seen back in season 2 when Tyrion had the Pyromancer's make it, don't think all of it was used Vs Stannis (plus Mad Kings stash was mentioned)

Regarding resurrecting Mountain, it was established that he was kicked out of Masters for experimenting on people so again not totally implausible within the narrative

Can Giants fly?

You'd then have to explain why all through the reign of the taargs and their dragons that no one considered engineering a gimbled counter weighted one man operated balista until Qyburn Edison showed up.

Same with the glorified napalm blowing up a building, the technology was around for ever and no-one was using it for blowing up castles.

Arya smacking around an armoured opponent three times her size with her bodkin. The amazing teleporting armies, you can just about hack these kinds of silly moments and plot devices if used sparingly but when they start piling up on top of each other it requires suspension of disbelief, logic, physics and geography

eeguy

Bambi wrote: »

Can Giants fly?

You'd then have to explain why all through the reign of the taargs and their dragons that no one considered engineering a gimbled counter weighted one man operated balista until Qyburn Edison showed up.

Same with the glorified napalm blowing up a building, the technology was around for ever and no-one was using it for blowing up castles.

Arya smacking around an armoured opponent three times her size with her bodkin. The amazing teleporting armies, you can just about hack these kinds of silly moments and plot devices if used sparingly but when they start piling up on top of each other it requires suspension of disbelief, logic, physics and geography

No one cares. Just sit back and enjoy.

Gbear

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah c'mon Bambi
Delevoping a big fnck of Ballista isn't totally far-fetched- I mean The Nightswatch had one that killed Giants and I don't remember people moaning

If anything it was surprisingly mundane and obvious.
It was an entirely believable counter-measure. It's only noteworthy because they took the dragon threat seriously and acted before they got melted to piles of human lasagna, which is unusually astute for people in any kind of story when they're faced with something supernatural.

But then Qyburn didn't exactly just fall off the turnip truck. Cersei might've been dumb and arrogant enough to dismiss any notions about the dragons but a bona-fide necromancer would understand the need to be prepared for anything.

Johan Quiet Housewife wrote: »

Except that her motivations were clearly explained. She arrived in a seemingly unassailable position with armies and allies coming out her ears. She's not as naive as her brother was and rightly scoffed at the notion that the common folk will rise up in joy at her arrival. She listened to the counsel of people who knew the country and decided that dragons and Dothraki laying siege to cities and masacring home grown troops would be short sighted and counterproductive. She's very aware of her father's legacy and how it'll colour people's perception of her. She listens when people point out that it would be very risky for her to put herself in the battle by flying a Dragon into it, and she's the only one who can do that. All of this was explicitly stated in dialogue, and all of it makes sense.

It doesn't make any sense.

She's just proven it doesn't make sense.

She isn't destroying cities or massacring civilians. She went and ambushed an army. That totally dismisses the entire notion of her being worried about her name.

She didn't have to engage in fights directly, although she needed to wheel out the dragons at some point to scare the **** out of everyone. The attack was an act of desperation in terms of her involvement, but she can still lead from closer to the front then a rock in the middle of the sea and has enough Dothraki to control the sorts of routes that the Lannister army used to get from the Rock to KL to Highgarden.

And if you're worried about them raiding, I think she can keep them in line. They think she's a god.

Johan Quiet Housewife wrote: »

The situation changed, everyone was caught on the hop by Euron (who, yeah, definitely pushes the suspension of disbelief ) and now she's adjusted her approach. Her being aggressive at the start would have meant that Yara, Ellaria, the snakes etc would have had to be dispatched some other way, and her meeting Jon be worked in somewhere too. Now she has far fewer allies, fewer ships, she's aware of the threat in the North. It's not the same endpoint at all.

It's the same endpoint in terms of her involvement. I would imagine that the general idea (and it makes sense) was to have her fight and have her or a dragon take an injury, if not be killed outright (maybe not Drogon - maybe one of the spares) and in doing so force her to be more cautious with them.

Obviously she's much worse off in a general strategic sense.

The issue here isn't that it's wrong that she's weak. It's that they made her so strong in the first place or that they failed to weaken her in a way that was credible.
At the very least they've mentioned that Tyrion now looks so incompetent as to be suspected of treason, but that only raises even more questions.
Why have they bothered putting so much effort into the storyline of him becoming hand only to make him look like such a bumbling dickhead all of a sudden?

It's because they're making **** up as they go along and can only make token efforts at keeping the world consistent when they write themselves into a corner.

Gbear

Nody wrote: »

You need to refresh your book knowledge my friend; the golden company has already arrived to Westeros in the Stormlands with Aegon Targaryeon to make him fit to be the partner of Daenerys and have taken Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone. Hence chances of Cersei hiring them in the books is pretty much nil short of one or more captains deciding to backstab the others and betray them.

Having them opposed to Dany in one form or another accomplishes some of their purpose. They're just under a Lannister banner, rather than a different Targ one.

ArmaniJeanss

eeguy wrote: »

You do realise the books will probably follow a similar path.
In the books they had Tyrion make a secret massive chain to drape across the Blackwater. Equally as ludicrous. At least it was more believeable in the the show

A naval chain is actually a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_(navigational_barrier)

marcus001

eeguy wrote: »

You do realise the books will probably follow a similar path.
In the books they had Tyrion make a secret massive chain to drape across the Blackwater. Equally as ludicrous. At least it was more believeable in the the show

The chain wasn't ridiculous. It's a smart form of naval defence and it was something that would have been used in medieval times.

Riddle101

Nody wrote: »

You need to refresh your book knowledge my friend; the golden company has already arrived to Westeros in the Stormlands with Aegon Targaryeon to make him fit to be the partner of Daenerys and have taken Griffin's Roost, Rain House, Crow's Nest, and Greenstone. Hence chances of Cersei hiring them in the books is pretty much nil short of one or more captains deciding to backstab the others and betray them.

What I meant was, Cersei mentioned the Golden Company in her scene with that man from the bank of Braavos. As we book readers know, Aegon Targaryen and Jon Connington are aligned with the Golden Company, however since neither of those characters are in the show, there's a possibility that Cersei will hire them to help fight against Daenerys. I just think it would be pretty interesting to see the Golden Company on the show. I'd love to see some war elephants in battle.

CMOTDibbler

marcus001 wrote: »

The chain wasn't ridiculous. It's a smart form of naval defence and it was something that would have been used in medieval times.

So why is a ballista or scorpion a problem? I know you're not saying that, but others are.

Gbear

Riddle101 wrote: »

What I meant was, Cersei mentioned the Golden Company in her scene with that man from the bank of Braavos. As we book readers know, Aegon Targaryen and Jon Connington are aligned with the Golden Company, however since neither of those characters are in the show, there's a possibility that Cersei will hire them to help fight against Daenerys. I just think it would be pretty interesting to see the Golden Company on the show. I'd love to see some war elephants in battle.

It does kinda feel like a sop to book readers.

What purpose do they have when there's no backstory about Bittersteel and the Blackfyre Rebellions, Jon Con or Aegon?

If it's just a case of needing a credible way to even the scales with Dany then fair enough but presumably they'd just be another shower of redshirts. I can't see there being many more important characters.

Savage Tyrant

I'm interested where they go with the Golden Company. They should in theory be more likely to join with Danny (assuming they'll almost certainly skip the young Aegon character)
They are descended from a legitimised bastard of King Aegon IV and may also have a Valerian steel sword "Blackfyre"
Maybe that's too much backstory for the show though. I suspect they'll just be used as ordinary sellswords, albeit very good ones.

ArmaniJeanss

Looking at it again, Bronn doesn't seem to think the big arrow is poisoned as he's happy to touch it with his fingers.
Also the amount of poison needed to mortally injure a 3 tonne dragon would surely be massive compared to that needed to affect a human.
And the poisons that Qyburn has been using work on humans, absolutely no reason to think it'd work on a different species (the things my dog eats that'd kill me!!!).
Finally not having access to dragons himself, he'd have no test subjects.

It'd be an incredible fluke if he'd somehow concocted the exact poison in the exact dosage, and said poison didn't get adversely affected by the air and rain and fluctuating temperatures its been exposed to on their march or degrade during the time that has passed since it left the KL laboratory. Absolutely impossible imo.

RIP Drogon I guess

Gbear

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

RIP Drogon I guess

Also, like Jaime ending up in the drink rather than getting incinerated, it really would be terrible writing if he just died off screen as a result of that.

They haven't built up anything about the bolts being poison-tipped. There's enough in Qyburn's story to suggest it's theoretically possible, but that's really weak buildup for something happening off screen.

He'll be fine. If it does anything it'll be to force Dany to play it safer.

razorblunt

That Jamie scene is crying out for the last minute eyes open or hand coming to rescue him. Or else he'll throw off the gold arm.

Savage Tyrant

Gbear wrote: »

Also, like Jaime ending up in the drink rather than getting incinerated, it really would be terrible writing if he just died off screen as a result of that.

I still hate that Stannis died off screen. It's my biggest annoyance of the series by a long way. I can't see them doing that for Jamie. Beside, I think he has a lot more involvement with the story to come.

awec

I would be absolutely amazed if they killed off a 7 season main character like Jamie Lannister in that way.

It's too boring and way to inconsequential. One of the main protagonists, whose actually pretty smart in the grand scheme of things, dies after doing something stupid in a random skirmish in the middle of nowhere? I don't buy it, he'll be back next week.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I still hate that Stannis died off screen. It's my biggest annoyance of the series by a long way. I can't see them doing that for Jamie. Beside, I think he has a lot more involvement with the story to come.

I'd say they might have been hedging their bets there as to whether they'd need to reveal he was still alive at some later point.

I really doubt Jaime is dead, seems like just letting Drogon roast him would've been better if that's what they were going to do. It's another version of what we got with Arya before I'd say.

Digital Solitude

Riddle101 wrote: »

Very interesting hearing Cersei mentioning the Golden Company last night. They're supposed to be the fiercest sellsword company I believe. They've about 10,000 soliders and the also have War Elephants. They're also aligned with Aegon Targayren and Jon Coninnington in the books. But I could see Cersei hiring them all the same.

They never break a contract, hence the Golden iirc. They're one of the big three, along with the Second Sons and the Storm Crows I believe.

If they join Cersei, then that'll be either a huge change from the books that makes no sense, or they'll forgo their name for a broke queen. Neither works for me anyways, seems daft.

I hope they don't just turn up as cannon fodder.

eeguy

Tyrion and Bronn are both on the battlefield.

I wonder will Bronn switch sides

J. Marston

eeguy wrote: »

Tyrion and Bronn are both on the battlefield.

I wonder will Bronn switch sides

If Dany got a good enough look at who was operating the ballista, he's going to be a snack for Drogon.

FunLover18

Anyone else have issue with how deep that lake was at the end. Like it didn't ruin the episode by any means, but me and the lads I was watching it with all commented on it.

Dave_The_Sheep

FunLover18 wrote: »

Anyone else have issue with how deep that lake was at the end. Like it didn't ruin the episode by any means, but me and the lads I was watching it with all commented on it.

True. Unless it's basically a trench, it was silly - just for a cool camera shot.

That being said, it's clear at this stage that "being cool" > "making sense" for this show, which is fine but leads to situations like the above.

turnikett1

FunLover18 wrote: »

Anyone else have issue with how deep that lake was at the end. Like it didn't ruin the episode by any means, but me and the lads I was watching it with all commented on it.

Well this is a show about dragons, shapeshifters and zombies so if the writers feel that sometimes in this universe there are lakes with a very deep shoreline then so be it. Let's not forget that seasons last years in this, too.

Whether it's case of the writers explicitly deciding that this type of water body exists in Westeros or if it was just a case of lazy writing and something like this didn't even cross their minds, I guess that's up to debate. Either way, I'll work with it. Really doesn't bother me at all. The point is Jaime almost killed himself trying to kill Danaerys in a last ditch dramatic fashion, before being rescued from his death and presumably taken prisoner.

I mean, in LotR, everyone asked "Why didn't they use the eagles from the start!?" but did anyone really care? Nah...

Liam O

It cheapens the whole thing when stupid things like that are in there for pure convenience. It's fine when things make sense within the universe because the rules have been set but things like Euron bypassing dragons and lookouts with 1,000 ships on his way in and out of Blackwater Bay and continuity problems like above take you out of that universe. They cheapen what is generally a well acted and produced show with lazy writing and things that someone should have noticed during shooting or in the writing process.

A lot of people have shouted down any criticism of the show this season because of the epic scenes but if what's in between is like a bad B movie in terms of dialogue and story building it cheapens the whole thing.

RDM_83 again

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

It baffles me why some of you continue to watch the series.... Complaints and criticism make up the majority of some posters contributions to these threads.

Because we're invested in the show and it does still have high production values and in my view any scenes with Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion, the Spider, Liam Cunningham and Diana Rigg still tend to be excellent and I've mellowed to Sophie Turner now her acting abilities have improved.
Also it has a massive budget thats sometimes used to great effect and I like seeing the scenery.

Personally after the first two episodes this season I was toying with stopping watching the show but episode 3 changed my mind and sure its only what 11 episodes left.

Johan Quiet Housewife wrote: »

She's always tended to listen to and act on the advice of her counsel, and then get incredibly pissed off if she starts to lose and whip out the dragons in an act of decisive but risky violence. And now that character flaw has landed her in a tight corner, if it weren't for who she is I'd say a possibly fatal one. That's consistent with how the show has worked since Ned met his end.

And this is exactly the problem with the way the show has gone, what made it really interesting in the earlier seasons was that if any main character fcuked up they could die, that feeling is gone now for any of the main "good" characters.

I have a feeling that the show gradually became more "fan service" and less risk taking and replaced those aspects with spectacle. My theory of when it started was the controversial rape scenes, recently had a conversation with someone who stopped watching after one of them her mate nearly did too (both big social media users AFAIK), this probably made the producers wary of harming certain characters- I brought up the fact that in the book the same horrible stuff happens to a different character (that servant girl) and why was it better - reply was basically cos she liked Sansa.
I'm not defending the Cersei and Jamie seen because that was just thrown in but it really does seem the world of the show is getting less and less dark and increasingly populated with You go Girl characters Lyanna Mormont and Arya Stark this season being obvious examples.

Addition- to be fair both Bronn and The Hound are probably also quiet fan servicey by this stage too but at least it doesn't seem as weird as they are meant to be excellent warriors with sarcastic attitudes.

It's amazing the amount of work that goes into a scene like this episode's battle...

I loved the Dothraki standing up and leaping from their horses...stuntmen did that for real as it turns out.

Likewise with a lot of the fire effects...20 stuntmen repeatedly got set alight until they captured what was needed for the scene. The boys just standing there on bombs while the director counts down to 'Action' :pac: What's more...the stuntmen who are set alight have to hold their breath while doing it, so as to not die. No problem, sure.

I know viewers can have their gripes with the show. I even had a criticism or two with this episode but it didn't matter in the grand scheme of my enjoyment. However, overall we are very lucky with the treatment and dedication ASOIAF is being given. That doesn't mean that we can't criticise, or that story-wise it can be perfect, it just hits home after watching that battle scene and then the inside look at how it was made.

Also, I recently saw some other book I love adapted for television in the worst possible way. The book is Stephen King's 11-22-63, an instant favourite of mine. After finishing it, I was excited to see that Hulu had made an 8 episode mini-series of the book and it had a decent cast with James Franco and Chris Cooper. Well, it disappointed me greatly. Never mind the vast, ineffective changes from the book and the betrayal of character beliefs and motivations, the TV series couldn't even remain consistent within its own universe, themes and characters. Again, the likes of this doesn't absolve GoT from criticism, just point out that we can be quite lucky.

No, Rickon didn't zig zag, the Lannisters didn't have scouts to alert them to Drogon/The Dothraki's arrival, the Blackwater river which Jaime sank in was deeper than some of us thought at first glance, but this is still some great television. We are lucky that the production values and dialogue of the Sand Snakes v Jaime/Bronn in Dorne weren't the norm for the show, but an exception which shone a light on the many things that the show does so well.

For better or worse, we're going to get an ending to this show. The longer it takes for The Winds of Winter to drop, the more my faith in us getting an ending to the book series dwindles. There's a chance this could be the only ending we get to ASOIAF. Again, the show hasn't been perfect in its six years, but every chapter of ASOIF hasn't been perfect either. The show has given us a more than watchable story, one which has more depth than it can get credit for or than I have time to go into in this already long post (Dickon's dialogue with Jaime about war and the 'enemy' before Drogon arrived is an example) and it has provided some of the best television we've seen in this golden age for the medium.

Like any art or product, GoT is subject to criticism and review. However, some of the things we can get caught up on in here are so much in the minority, so nit-picky, that they're barely mentioned and take up relatively less real estate in the vast book-readers' threads over on the ASOIAF subreddit. A place where they really like to rip the show when given the opportunity.

My own nitpick: Is no one in the Winterfell reunion going to mention poor Rickon Stark??

duploelabs

Bambi wrote: »

Can Giants fly?

You'd then have to explain why all through the reign of the taargs and their dragons that no one considered engineering a gimbled counter weighted one man operated balista until Qyburn Edison showed up.

Same with the glorified napalm blowing up a building, the technology was around for ever and no-one was using it for blowing up castles.

Arya smacking around an armoured opponent three times her size with her bodkin. The amazing teleporting armies, you can just about hack these kinds of silly moments and plot devices if used sparingly but when they start piling up on top of each other it requires suspension of disbelief, logic, physics and geography

Didn't Dorne take down a dragon using one whilst repelling Aegon's invasion

rawn

Deleted User wrote:

My own nitpick: Is no one in the Winterfell reunion going to mention poor Rickon Stark??

I thought it was an "unspoken" thing between Sansa and Arya. When Sansa said Bran is home Arya opened her mouth as if to ask about Rickon but Sansa's smile fell - I assumed the details were then revealed off screen. But that's just how it looked to me, my husband didn't see it so I could be wrong!

Liam O

rawn wrote: »

I thought it was an "unspoken" thing between Sansa and Arya. When Sansa said Bran is home Arya opened her mouth as if to ask about Rickon but Sansa's smile fell - I assumed the details were then revealed off screen. But that's just how it looked to me, my husband didn't see it so I could be wrong!

I think that was more to do with what Bran is like now.

Rickon was brought back for about 5 minutes of screen time. He was clearly a loose end that they wanted to cut out. Not even a scene of Shaggydog's death and the aforementioned problem with his dodging Ramsey's arrows.

I still don't know what's keeping Cersei in power in KL. Especially without Jaime there. The mountain can't just kill everyone. The lack of characters there has hampered any intrigue in that area.

awec

Liam O wrote: »

I think that was more to do with what Bran is like now.

Rickon was brought back for about 5 minutes of screen time. He was clearly a loose end that they wanted to cut out. Not even a scene of Shaggydog's death and the aforementioned problem with his dodging Ramsey's arrows.

I still don't know what's keeping Cersei in power in KL. Especially without Jaime there. The mountain can't just kill everyone. The lack of characters there has hampered any intrigue in that area.

There is nobody to take power from her surely?

CMOTDibbler

Liam O wrote: »

I still don't know what's keeping Cersei in power in KL. Especially without Jaime there. The mountain can't just kill everyone. The lack of characters there has hampered any intrigue in that area.

Who's left to challenge her? All the great houses are either leaderless or diminshed hugely. One would assume the gold cloaks are still there as well. And there have to be some Lannister soldiers back with the gold too.

Liam O

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Who's left to challenge her? All the great houses are either leaderless or diminshed hugely. One would assume the gold cloaks are still there as well. And there have to be some Lannister soldiers back with the gold too.

That's the problem. Too much has to be assumed that should have some token explanation. How many times have you posted in these threads so far this season using the word assume? When something is not explained it just becomes a series of battle scenes and deaths that have no emotion behind them which I've somewhat come to accept from the show. Doesn't make it any less disappointing not to see what happened to all of the troops that should have been stationed around Highgarden, how Euron can slip by dragons patrolling the sea, nobody filling the power vacuums that should be everywhere at the moment etc.

theteal

FunLover18 wrote: »

Anyone else have issue with how deep that lake was at the end. Like it didn't ruin the episode by any means, but me and the lads I was watching it with all commented on it.

I'm working off the assumption that the actual lake wasn't that deep. It was just imagery to show that Jamie was kind of giving up, the task at hand is too big, the odds insurmountable. I mean, he didn't try to swim, he just drifted. . .slowly. . .

Now, that being said, if he somehow manages to escape because of the super deep magic lake, I will be a bit miffed.

CMOTDibbler

Liam O wrote: »

That's the problem. Too much has to be assumed that should have some token explanation. How many times have you posted in these threads so far this season using the word assume? When something is not explained it just becomes a series of battle scenes and deaths that have no emotion behind them which I've somewhat come to accept from the show. Doesn't make it any less disappointing not to see what happened to all of the troops that should have been stationed around Highgarden, how Euron can slip by dragons patrolling the sea, nobody filling the power vacuums that should be everywhere at the moment etc.

Well you've taken a long walk from where I started.

Nothing happened at Kings Landing to wipe out the gold cloaks. They weren't in the Sept of Baelor, so assume is a word I used conservatively. It's not even the slightest stretch. Also we were told that the gold was through to Kings Landing. To make the assumption that it wasn't guarded by Lannister soldiers would be massive. I certainly don't need to be led by the hand for that one.

As for the power vacuums. Let's go through the great houses. Highgarden, completely routed, no soldiers left except those now under the command of the Tarlys who are allied with the Lannisters and have been given the Reach. The Baratheon forces have also been completely wiped out by Ramsay Bolton and whatever's left is too far north in any case. The Tullys have also been wiped out by the war of the five kings and the Freys (what's left of them) are still considered Lannister allies; we've seen Ed Sheeran heading there to stabilise the situation . House Arryn is also in the north and the only effective leadership south of the Neck is Robin Arryn. :rolleyes:

So that leaves Dorne. Two major cullings has left them pretty much leaderless, but they still have their armed forces largely intact having never been involved in any of the major battles so far. We may yet see a Dornish army on the field of battle, but there's no guarantee which side they'd be on.

.......

This post has been deleted.

awec

One question I'd have is given how easy it was for the Lannisters to take Highgarden, why didn't they just do it much sooner? Did the Tarly switch change it all?

dr.kenneth noisewater

awec wrote: »

One question I'd have is given how easy it was for the Lannisters to take Highgarden, why didn't they just do it much sooner? Did the Tarly switch change it all?

They had to make sure the Tarly's were with them or taking Highgarden would have been more difficult. Highgarden was probably expecting Tarly to help them fight the Lannisters

Danjamin1

awec wrote: »

One question I'd have is given how easy it was for the Lannisters to take Highgarden, why didn't they just do it much sooner? Did the Tarly switch change it all?

I think the answer is "because it was convenient". Lazy writing but it worked for where the story is going. They've tied up another loose end in Olenna Tyrrel so they can focus on the wars in the north and KL. it's understandable when you consider how much is in the books and how complicated things get that they'd want to simplify the story a bit. I do find it lazy though. But DRAGONS!!