Season 7 Episode 4 "The Spoils of War" - "Book readers"

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wp_rathead

Danjamin1 wrote: »

I think the answer is "because it was convenient". Lazy writing but it worked for where the story is going. They've tied up another loose end in Olenna Tyrrel so they can focus on the wars in the north and KL. it's understandable when you consider how much is in the books and how complicated things get that they'd want to simplify the story a bit. I do find it lazy though. But DRAGONS!!

How was it lazy writing?
A) Everyone was expecting the Battle to take place at Casterly Rock so for the Lannister army to suddenly appear at Highgarden ( a nod back to Robb pulling this tactic on Jamie) would have caught them off guard
Tarlys (Tyrrels Bannermen) changed sides to the Lannisters- so they lose a powerful Ally and gain an enemy who knows the castle and how to overthrow it
C) Tyrrels are kinda in disarray militarily with Loras and Mace both dead

Danjamin1

wp_rathead wrote: »

How was it lazy writing?
A) Everyone was expecting the Battle to take place at Casterly Rock so for the Lannister army to suddenly appear at Highgarden ( a nod back to Robb pulling this tactic on Jamie) would have caught them off guard
Tarlys (Tyrrels Bannermen) changed sides to the Lannisters- so they lose a powerful Ally and gain an enemy who knows the castle and how to overthrow it
C) Tyrrels are kinda in disarray militarily with Loras and Mace both dead

A) you don't think Olenna might be on guard considering everything that's happened recently?
fair enough
C) I found that in itself a bit lazy, they wiped out a good few inconvenient loose ends in one go with the destruction of the sept. Not that I'm complaining, the whole High Sparrow story isn't one of my favourites.

But that's just my opinion

wp_rathead

Danjamin1 wrote: »

A) you don't think Olenna might be on guard considering everything that's happened recently?
fair enough
C) I found that in itself a bit lazy, they wiped out a good few inconvenient loose ends in one go with the destruction of the sept. Not that I'm complaining, the whole High Sparrow story isn't one of my favourites.

But that's just my opinion

A) I do, but I also get as kick ass as she is, I don't think she had any dealings regarding the military- again Tyrells think Casterly Rock is where Lannisters will be fighting the Unsullied, and she would never have expected the Tarlys to betray them
C) ok, well I don't think the Sept being destroyed was lazy but you're entitled to your opinion

CMOTDibbler

Danjamin1 wrote: »

C) I found that in itself a bit lazy, they wiped out a good few inconvenient loose ends in one go with the destruction of the sept. Not that I'm complaining, the whole High Sparrow story isn't one of my favourites.

But that's just my opinion

Just on this. I often wonder is the destruction of the Sept of Baelor something GRRM planned. It has that 'Red Wedding' feel to it and just seems to play to Cersei's ruthlessness.

eeguy

awec wrote: »

One question I'd have is given how easy it was for the Lannisters to take Highgarden, why didn't they just do it much sooner? Did the Tarly switch change it all?

Because they were allies until Olenna turned to Dany after the end of the last season.
Only Cersei hated them and she had no power until the sept blew up in the last season

TheIrishGrover

Really liked this episode with only a few very minor points:

Liked:

• Arya V The Guards. Pretty funny.
• Arya V Sansa. Nicely done in the Sept.
• Arya V Brienne. A little bt too cool for school but forgivable. Needed to show Sansa (and Littlefinger) that she's not the same girl.
• Pretty much most of Arya actually.
• Mycroft Banker and Cersie.
• Bron, oh how we missed you. "Dickon". FINALLY someone mentioned the elephant in the room.
• Bron's chase.
• Tyrion watching Jamie.
• The whole battle looked amazing. Really top notch effects. You could see what was going on the whole time. I know you could say Dany should have tried to capture the caravan rather than destroy it but I presume at this stage, since she's about to be on the move, it's more important to deny them their stock rather than gather her own. I presume this means she has all Cercie's bank gold too.

Didn't like (Laying it on thick)

• Bran. They are laying it on pretty thick all of a sudden. I'm waiting for him to put on shades and say "MISTER TARGARyan" (In that pronunciation) when he sees John.
• Bran and the knife. It seemed to spend about 10 mins on the knife. We get it: Arya will probably kill Littlefinger and/or White Walkers with it.
• Bran mumbling (What did he say to Littlefinger? "Chaos is a ladder"?)
• Laying it on a bit thick with John/Dany also (Although I assume nothing will happen). In the cave. With him grabbing her wrist and all the pregnant pauses etc.
• Messinder's confusion about bastards. Blah blah blah. Illegitimacy does not mean ineligibility. She all but said "So, for example, Lord Snow, if it was discovered that you were a more direct Tagraryan descendant then YOU would have a better claim to the throne.... Y'know, just sayin'"
• That underwater cliff at the end. How deep did that lake go.... Just 2 feet to the right of Jamie's horse? Plus, that's a lot of heavy armour to be wearing under water

TL:DR Great and exciting episode with some outstanding moments but they were laying on the portents pretty thick

Danjamin1

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Just on this. I often wonder is the destruction of the Sept of Baelor something GRRM planned. It has that 'Red Wedding' feel to it and just seems to play to Cersei's ruthlessness.

Was wondering that myself, I kind of hope it's not now that it's happened in the show!

I'm not pretending to love the storylines the show has taken and I would have to admit to favouring the books but I find myself watching the show and I'm really just waiting for the battles. It doesn't feel as smart as the books and some of this is down to limited scope for further character development. You can get chapters upon chapters giving some characters experiences and thoughts to establish them and view them from other characters' perspectives but in the show it's just whatever you get on the screen. The show feels rushed to me but I get that you can't have seasons just full of character development, no one would watch it!

They can FRO with the Grey Worm & Missandei shíte though. How does that get screen time?!

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Mickeroo

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Bran mumbling (What did he say to Littlefinger? "Chaos is a ladder"?)

Yeah that's what he said, it was a reference to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxlIraEV8n4

He was basically letting Littlefinger know he has no secrets from him, I liked that bit.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

Anyone else have issue with how deep that lake was at the end. Like it didn't ruin the episode by any means, but me and the lads I was watching it with all commented on it.

That is actually a good point, Jamies horses was able to gallop through it, he was knocked off his horse, probably another 10 feet maybe, so should have only been chest or head deep.

in regards to the ballistas if you can make a crossbow you can make a ballista, it is in essence just a very large crossbow with stronger pullbacks. I think Qyburn had found an old one and just modified the wheelbase and movement of it.
You have to think, the last time dragons were around was 300 years back, so technology must have moved on a bit.

eeguy

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I thought Oleanna was just waiting to die. She was even wearing black.

But why was she in Highgarden at all?

Margery sent her back at the end of the last season.

dr.kenneth noisewater

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I thought Oleanna was just waiting to die. She was even wearing black.

But why was she in Highgarden at all?[/quote]
Was thinking some more on this. Wasnt the Tyrells supposed to join the Dothraki in the Siege of Kings Landing? I would then assume she called her bannermen to join them and Tarly let the Lannisters know the plan?

dr.kenneth noisewater

eeguy wrote: »

....... wrote: »

I thought Oleanna was just waiting to die. She was even wearing black.

But why was she in Highgarden at all?

Margery sent her back at the end of the last season.

I assume he means why did she go back there from Dragonstone

eeguy

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

You have to think, the last time dragons were around was 300 years back, so technology must have moved on a bit.

Not necessarily. Dan Carlin had a claim that you could take the roman army at it's height in history and send it 1000 years forward, drop it back in europe and have it mop the floor with the greatest armies of the early middle ages relatively easily.

There was no need for anti dragon weapons so the technology could have died. We havent seen ballistae in any army before this episode

CMOTDibbler

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Really liked this episode with only a few very minor points:
Didn't like (Laying it on thick)

• Bran mumbling (What did he say to Littlefinger? "Chaos is a ladder"?)

That's something Littlefinger said to Varys in season 1. Varys: "Chaos is a pit", Littlefinger: "Chaos is a ladder".

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

• That underwater cliff at the end. How deep did that lake go.... Just 2 feet to the right of Jamie's horse? Plus, that's a lot of heavy armour to be wearing under water.

We have lakes like that here. The upper lake in Glandalough drops off inside a couple of strides from shallow to bottomless. It's like a cliff. :eek:

TheIrishGrover

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

[/LIST]
That's something Littlefinger said to Varys in season 1. Varys: "Chaos is a pit", Littlefinger: "Chaos is a ladder".

[/LIST]
We have lakes like that here. The upper lake in Glandalough drops off inside a couple of strides from shallow to bottomless. It's like a cliff. :eek:

I thought that it was something Littlefinger said alright based on his reaction.

That is some EPIC riding by Jamie so Hah

CMOTDibbler

eeguy wrote: »

There was no need for anti dragon weapons so the technology could have died. We havent seen ballistae in any army before this episode

It was actually a scorpion. Jaime referred to it as such when telling Bronn to get it set up.

And we saw one on one of Stannis ships during the Battle of the Blackwater. We have also seen a similar weapon used by the slave master's fleet in Meereen and Euron clearly has them too.

Harambe

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

[/LIST]
That's something Littlefinger said to Varys in season 1. Varys: "Chaos is a pit", Littlefinger: "Chaos is a ladder".

That was later than season 1 surely?

Edit: just had a quick google, think it happened in season 3. I definitely remember it too clearly for it be season 1.

podgemonster

Season 3: The Climb

CMOTDibbler

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I thought that it was something Littlefinger said alright based on his reaction.

That is some EPIC riding by Jamie so Hah

Yeah, "The fúcking idiot".

People have been drowned in those lakes. Just having a bit of a paddle and step off the edge... :eek:

Billy86

eeguy wrote: »

Not necessarily. Dan Carlin had a claim that you could take the roman army at it's height in history and send it 1000 years forward, drop it back in europe and have it mop the floor with the greatest armies of the early middle ages relatively easily.

There was no need for anti dragon weapons so the technology could have died. We havent seen ballistae in any army before this episode

On the subject of Dan Carlin, you should check out the Genghis Khan episodes. I know it's a bit obvious anyway, but interesting how the Dothraki follow Mongol military approach quite closely in some respects.

Liam O

There's a parody version of the Carlin ones called hardcore game of thrones which is excellent too.

wp_rathead

Liam O wrote: »

There's a parody version of the Carlin ones called hardcore game of thrones which is excellent too.

Its a brilliant Podcast, I linked to it last year in a post
Not sure if the code still works

wp_rathead wrote: »

There is a brilliant podcast called "Shadow of the Dragon"
It is done in the style of a parody of Dan Carlin's awesome "Hardcore History" podcasts

The first 3 episodes are up free on Earwolf's soundcloud page:
https://soundcloud.com/earwolf-presents/hgot-shadow-of-the-dragon-pt-i
https://soundcloud.com/earwolf-presents/hgot-shadow-of-the-dragon-pt-ii
https://soundcloud.com/earwolf-presents/hgot-shadow-of-the-dragon-pt-iii

There are a further 5 episodes (IV-VIII) on Howl.FM - they are behind a paywall but use the code "HGOT" to sign up for free months trial..
Enjoy :cool:

marcus001

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yeah that's what he said, it was a reference to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxlIraEV8n4

He was basically letting Littlefinger know he has no secrets from him, I liked that bit.

There will be no more scenes like this in the series.

SexBobomb

It looked to me that a really big event happened with Arya deciding to take the dagger from Bran.

When Bran said he thought Arya went to Kings Landing I think it means that he can see multiple futures depending on the decisions characters make and that Arya taking the dagger set in motion something big, I even think he looked a little sad or resigned maybe when she took it from him. As much as you can read into that robot face anyway

Dial Hard

SexBobomb wrote:

When Bran said he thought Arya went to Kings Landing I think it means that he can see multiple futures depending on the decisions characters make

He didn't say that, though, he said he thought she was going to go. Big difference.

podgemonster

SexBobomb wrote: »

It looked to me that a really big event happened with Arya deciding to take the dagger from Bran.

When Bran said he thought Arya went to Kings Landing I think it means that he can see multiple futures depending on the decisions characters make and that Arya taking the dagger set in motion something big, I even think he looked a little sad or resigned maybe when she took it from him. As much as you can read into that robot face anyway

I noticed that too on a second viewing. When Arya takes the dagger, Brans hands linger in the air for a moment as his eyes follow the dagger as Ayra pulls it towards herself.

For Bran this was an important moment, I'd imagine every action he takes has to be deliberate and thought out, he can forsee every consequence. Giving Arya the dagger set something else in motion but only Brans knows what that is.

Kunkka

That dagger is 100% being used for something significant. I'd imagine it's for the Mountain, if him being dead has similar properties to the white walkers then Valerion Steel is what is needed to make the kill. Only the Mountain and Cersei are left on the list right? I see Jaime killing Cersei so for me the dagger is for the Mountain, or if it's for someone off her list maybe the Night King?

Sleepy

Could Arya killing the Night King but losing her life in the process be the "bittersweet" ending Martin has referred to?

It would explain Bran's sadness at handing her the knife she'll use to do it...

Though it might lead to George finding himself divorced as his wife has threatened to leave him should anything happen to Arya....

Loafing Oaf

Kunkka wrote: »

That dagger is 100% being used for something significant.

Or maybe that's what we're meant to think.:p

Kunkka

It would be the poetic that the dagger that started the whole Clash of Kings saga kills the Night King.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Or maybe that's what we're meant to think.:p

I dunno, they really try to emphasise things in the show so when something is delivered later people make the connection. Also making Bran out to be someone with zero emotion is being done because I presume he has seen the death of one of his "kin" in the future but because he is the "Three Eyed Raven" he cannot interfere?

Digital Solitude

Kunkka wrote: »

That dagger is 100% being used for something significant. I'd imagine it's for the Mountain, if him being dead has similar properties to the white walkers then Valerion Steel is what is needed to make the kill. Only the Mountain and Cersei are left on the list right? I see Jaime killing Cersei so for me the dagger is for the Mountain, or if it's for someone off her list maybe the Night King?

Ilyn Payne, Beric Donarrion and Thoros of Myr are all on the list too afaik.

And Melisandre :gasp:

Danjamin1

Digital Solitude wrote: »

Ilyn Payne, Beric Donarrion and Thoros of Myr are all on the list too afaik.

And Melisandre :gasp:

Only Ilyn Payne I thought.

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Danjamin1

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Only in the show though, right? I'm getting confused between the two media

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Danjamin1

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I am, I just can't remember which is which at parts :pac:

Digital Solitude

Digital Solitude wrote: »

Ilyn Payne, Beric Donarrion and Thoros of Myr are all on the list too afaik.

And Melisandre :gasp:

Show only actually, but on a read it seems Berric, Melly and Thoros were removed from the list, and Ilyn Payne probably isn't coming back to the show.

So yeah, just The Mountain and Cersei realistically

Kunkka

Kunkka wrote: »

It would be the poetic that the dagger that started the whole Clash of Kings saga kills the Night King.

I dunno, they really try to emphasise things in the show so when something is delivered later people make the connection. Also making Bran out to be someone with zero emotion is being done because I presume he has seen the death of one of his "kin" in the future but because he is the "Three Eyed Raven" he cannot interfere?

Interesting idea.

For the last few episodes, I've been telling myself that Bran is emotionless now because he has seen so much, lived everyone's history, what 'Bran' there is left has been diluted right down to almost nothing. For Bran, 0.000000000001% of the memories he stores are his own, and these are drowning among the huge amount of memories of everyone else who has ever lived.

Ok, that's a fine idea, but still doesn't really explain to me why he is emotionless. Sure, Bran could have lost his old self, taken on the 3ER role, but he still could show some emotion. Max Von Sydow's take on the 3ER wasn't emotionless.

However, when your idea is introduced - Bran has foreseen the deaths of his kin and there's nothing he can do despite his higher powers - That helps explain his emotionless detachment.

Maybe I'm going too far into it though - Perhaps the writers just want to show us that Bran has undergone a great change, and this is the way the actor has been directed to play a now-omniscient character.

Savage Tyrant

I think it's also a plot device used to explain why he hasn't just arrived in Winterfell, seen his sisters and started telling them everything he knows. The detached demeanour makes it easier to explain why he hasn't just started talking about what he's seen.
You'd assume it's a pretty big deal that the half brother they grew up with (and other than Sansa and Catelyn, were all very fond of) is actually the Son of one of the most famous Princes in all of Westerosi history and a possible legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne.

DM_7

I expect Bran wouldn't tell the others without talking with Jon first. He knows it would suit Littlefinger if Jon was not Neds son and could destabilise the leadership in the north (King of the North told the Targ can't be Trusted pre travel).

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Sleepy

I think much is also being made of the fact that Bran hasn't fully become the Three Eyed Raven yet - he still can't fully control his powers as his trainign was interupted.

Diemos

bnt wrote: »

I have to compliment the producers on how they handled Arya's return to Winterfell. After Sansa's shock at the changes in Bran, is she being set up for more grief? It remains to be seen. When they split up, Arya wasn't much more than an annoying little brat who got Sansa's direwolf killed.

Sansa got Lady killed by lying to back Jeoffery and not siding with the truth and her own family.

Danjamin1

Diemos wrote: »

Sansa got Lady killed by lying to back Jeoffery and not siding with the truth and her own family.

Man I hated Joffrey, credit to Jack Gleeson for portraying him so despicably well.

Loafing Oaf

Diemos wrote: »

Sansa got Lady killed

Well, Joffrey and Ramsay were notorious 'ladykillers'.:P

Dave_The_Sheep

Diemos wrote: »

Sansa got Lady killed by lying to back Jeoffery and not siding with the truth and her own family.

Indeed.

Pet peeve of mine, people seem to forget how much of an absolute useless pile of ****e Sansa has been the whole way through. If / when she survives the whole thing, I'm going to be mightily irritated.

Compare her to her younger sister Arya. One's been a perrenial victim who relies on others to save her the whole time while the other has fought back and made something of herself, even if it's an assassin.

Arya is captured by the Lannisters/Boltons , then (inadvertently) saves and uses a Faceless Man to eliminate some of her targets, escapes, then gets captured by the Hound, but uses that experience to take the first steps to becoming a killer. Then goes off to Bravos and learns to become a Faceless Man (to a degree). Takes out those on her list and surivives all on her own.

Compared to this, Sansa's greatest achievement is slapping a small boy in the face (immensely satisfying admittedly) and helping with the Battle of the Bastards by getting Littlefinger to bring the Vale knights over (and even then, should probably have told people about them coming and saved thousands of lives). The rest of the time, she's required people to rescue her left right and centre (from the Lannisters, then Lady Arryn, then the Boltons). Finally in this season, she seems to have some sort of a head on her shoulders, but nothing that redeems her from that first season.

Maybe because I went back and watched the first two seasons in a binge in the last few days, my dislike of Sansa is coming a bit more to the fore.

rawn

She got smarter! She was in a completely different situation than Arya, she was trapped in the hornets nest every time, surrounded by evil, sadistic people who manipulated, tortured and trapped her. She not only survived with her body and mental health intact but she came out the other side smarter and stronger. If Arya was in that situation, she would have been killed trying to fight her way out. Sansa has shown more character progression than any other character (barring Jaime) and is only getting better at playing the game. I hated her character at the beginning but she fast became one of my favorites. The sample chapters from the next book show how much more interesting she's become.

Danjamin1

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Indeed.

Pet peeve of mine, people seem to forget how much of an absolute useless pile of ****e Sansa has been the whole way through. If / when she survives the whole thing, I'm going to be mightily irritated.

Compare her to her younger sister Arya. One's been a perrenial victim who relies on others to save her the whole time while the other has fought back and made something of herself, even if it's an assassin.

Arya is captured by the Lannisters/Boltons , then (inadvertently) saves and uses a Faceless Man to eliminate some of her targets, escapes, then gets captured by the Hound, but uses that experience to take the first steps to becoming a killer. Then goes off to Bravos and learns to become a Faceless Man (to a degree). Takes out those on her list and surivives all on her own.

Compared to this, Sansa's greatest achievement is slapping a small boy in the face (immensely satisfying admittedly) and helping with the Battle of the Bastards by getting Littlefinger to bring the Vale knights over (and even then, should probably have told people about them coming and saved thousands of lives). The rest of the time, she's required people to rescue her left right and centre (from the Lannisters, then Lady Arryn, then the Boltons). Finally in this season, she seems to have some sort of a head on her shoulders, but nothing that redeems her from that first season.

Maybe because I went back and watched the first two seasons in a binge in the last few days, my dislike of Sansa is coming a bit more to the fore.

Don't forget that she inadvertently got her father killed and ultimately kicked off the whole rebellion by going to Cersei and informing her that Ned was sending his children back to Winterfell forcing Cersei to act first.