Deposit return after tenant dies

walshb

What are the rules should a tenant unfortunately die? Can the landlord retain the security deposit because the lease agreement was broken?

Michael D Not Higgins

MOD: moved to new thread.

Gatling

Are you been actual serious

evosteo

Wow

davo2001

Don't be a dick, return it to the next of kin.

Michael D Not Higgins

The RTA 2004 Section 39 says a Part 4 tenancy is terminated on the death of a tenant. A fixed term agreement can't continue when the legal tenancy is terminated so it stands to reason that a fixed term would also be terminated. On termination of a tenancy, a landlord is obliged to return the deposit as per Section 12 (1) (d) and subject to subtraction of any arrears of rent or damage above wear and tear.

Also, Section 23 and Section 75 (4) (b) also deal with how rent arrears are dealt with on the death of a tenant or landlord, i.e. the debt still exists and is payable by or to the personal representative of the deceased.

cruizer101

There was a similar thread on this recently enough

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057757850&page=3

LHPHB

Has this happened to you already?

Yawns

walshb wrote: »

What are the rules should a tenant unfortunately die? Can the landlord retain the security deposit because the lease agreement was broken?

Upon death, the contract is terminated. To be fair, if you have to ask about it, it's a bad sign. If I was the LL in this case, I'd be making it a priority to find the next of kin and returning the deposit to them. Wouldn't even deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear.

DubCount

walshb wrote: »

What are the rules should a tenant unfortunately die? Can the landlord retain the security deposit because the lease agreement was broken?

The deposit is still owed back to the tenant (or in this case the tenants estate). If a lease is broken in any other way, the deposit is still due back to the tenant. Not sure why you would assume the landlord is entitled to it (unless there is damage or unpaid rent etc.).

BrokenArrows

I don't get the responses calling the OP a dick.

Renting is a business and the OP will be financially out of pocket due to the death and he should be 100% keeping the deposit if he is legally allowed to.

LHPHB

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't get the responses calling the OP a dick.

Renting is a business and the OP will be financially out of pocket due to the death and he should be 100% keeping the deposit if he is legally allowed to.

Completely agree! Have to leave emotions out of business.

Yawns

But is he legally allowed to? Unless above normal wear & tear I don't think he can.

_Dara_

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I don't get the responses calling the OP a dick.

Renting is a business and the OP will be financially out of pocket due to the death and he should be 100% keeping the deposit if he is legally allowed to.

As per posts above, he is apparently not entitled to. Though if the tenant did damage beyond wear and tear, I presume it would fine to take some of the deposit for that.

I actually have a close friend who is terminally ill and who is renting currently. We were talking about practicalities recently and she said that she has a note written for her landlord acknowledging the things in the flat that will need to be replaced from her deposit ie. the mattress has some significant stains and will need to be replaced. A lot of terminally ill people will have copious plans made for afterwards. Sudden deaths are more tricky, of course.

HurlingRanker

Interesting that a couple of posters have assumed the OP is a landlord seeking to retain the deposit of a deceased tenant, that's one possibility, other possibilities include the OP being a friend/relative/associate of a recently deceased tenant (just like in the thread linked in post 7) or this could just be purely hypothetical.

myshirt

I'd look at this from a different angle. Guy at a funeral, crying really bad. Observing from a distance any decent person would say poor guy, he's taking this really hard, go over and ask him is he ok, comfort him to let's just get through today.

Little did I know, that man could be cut up real bad because he owed them a few quid and will likely now have to pay it over.

PhoenixParker

The fairest is probably rent paid up to the date the property is fully vacated and all other monies returned. That's probably not the legal stance though.

Graham

Mod Note

It's a reasonable question and we've no idea if it's being asked in the context of a landlord, a tenant, a relative of a recently deceased tenant or purely hypothetical.

Gatling

Legally do we need death clauses for leases now ,
Surely death isn't an excuse for a landlord so say a tenant had broken a lease and gets to keep a deposit

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

Legally do we need death clauses for leases now ,

I guess that would depend whether it's something that's already covered by existing laws.

STB.

Anyone who uses somebody elses death as a means to perceived money loss as if they have breached a lease agreement is a scumbag.

Unfortunately there are plenty of cases out there where unscrupulous landlords/agents did not alone retain the deposit, but also pursued the family for the rest of the value of the lease. Those that suggest that you look at it from a purely business point of view, well there is clearly something wrong with those type people.

In my opinion there is nothing more terminal than death when it comes to lease agreeements.

I hope its a hypothetical question!

Graham

STB. wrote: »

Unfortunately there are plenty of cases out there where unscrupulous landlords/agents did not alone retain the deposit, but also pursued the family for the rest of the value of the lease.

Are there plenty of cases?

I was just thinking it's a scenario I hadn't come across.

STB.

@Graham

There was a shocking case going back some time of a student who died who was pursued by a faceless letting agent for the remainder of the lease. Same said letting agent had been accepting D/D's long after their death and then pursued the family for the rest.

Graham

STB. wrote: »

@Graham

There was a shocking case going back some time of a student who died who was pursued by a faceless letting agent for the remainder of the lease. Same said letting agent had been accepting D/D's long after their death and then pursued the family for the rest.

Thanks, would be interested in a link to see how that all worked out if you have one.

STB.

Graham wrote: »

Thanks, would be interested in a link to see how that all worked out if you have one.

Its from memory Graham. Seeing the thread rekindled it. I dont have a link and dont know the final outcome. These things whilst pursued by some, rarely make it to court.

The biggest issue for a landlord should be to ascertain the families wishes as regards the property as quick as possible. Arrangements for deposit return normally go hand in hand with the period of time that it will take to get the property back, I would have thought.

P. Breathnach

The deposit should be returned to the executor or administrator of the deceased's estate. It might be unwise to hand it over to anybody else associated with the deceased, as the landlord can not be sure that it will go in the right direction (I am assuming that the landlord does not know the deceased's family well).

Were I a landlord in that position, I would inform any family member that I knew, or could find, that I had the deposit and would hand it over to whoever is dealing with the estate. Probate being what it is, there would likely be a delay of 6-12 months.

the_syco

Yawns wrote: »

If I was the LL in this case, I'd be making it a priority to find the next of kin and returning the deposit to them. Wouldn't even deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear.

How would you find their next of kin? You have a house full of their stuff and their deposit. Although the lease may end with the tenants death, getting the stuff out in preparation for the next tenant may drag. As for not "deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear", bear in mind that the landlord will most likely be down a months rent due to no fault of their own.

the_syco

STB. wrote: »

There was a shocking case going back some time of a student who died who was pursued by a faceless letting agent for the remainder of the lease. Same said letting agent had been accepting D/D's long after their death and then pursued the family for the rest.

Do you know was the law in place then, regarding the cessation of the lease due to death?

CIARAN_BOYLE

The deposit should be used to pay the rent until the estate removes the deceased' s possessions from the property.

If the family doesn't retrieve the property the landlord until the deposit is used up that is on them.

Yawns

the_syco wrote: »

How would you find their next of kin? You have a house full of their stuff and their deposit. Although the lease may end with the tenants death, getting the stuff out in preparation for the next tenant may drag. As for not "deduct for items even if beyond wear & tear", bear in mind that the landlord will most likely be down a months rent due to no fault of their own.

Perhaps LL's might start including a contact section on lease's with next of kin contact name and number for situations such as this. People might not be ok with this but who knows. Anyone not out to screw a LL over might be ok to provide that information.

Ring the references that you would have checked out to see if they can help shed information.

Check the likes of rip.ie to check who is running the arrangements for burial. You can show up at the funeral to pay respects and if you have a range of empathy that is greater than that of a tea spoon, you could always inform the person in charge that you have the items available for collection and deposit ready to be returned etc. Of course you'd need to be able to have a bit of tact about it.

Yawns

the_syco wrote: »

bear in mind that the landlord will most likely be down a months rent due to no fault of their own.

In this kind of case, someone has died. Someone is grieving for them. Money concerns should be secondary for them. I understand a LL has a business to run and needs to remove items and re-let.

But put yourself in the other person's position. By withholding deposit, what if they try to be a little bit akward.

By being pro-active and approaching the next of kin quickly, the LL can have his property back available for let a lot sooner with no hassle. No items to dispose of or storage to worry about. Box it all up if you can first but be kind about it as much as possible.

If you are proactive, you can have everything ready to go and give them an envelope with the deposit, tell them how sorry you are and so forth and then it's over and done with. Call the suppliers etc and get the bills sorted as well.