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Deposit return after tenant dies

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    #32
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Surely you would find and context the executor . They would organise someone to collect the stuff, then the house would be examined etc . Then any damage or rent due would be worked out and deducted from the deposit. Then the deposit would be returned.
    How else could you give back the deposit without knowing what value is left of the deposit


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    #33
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    It's a tough position to be in for all involved.

    For a grieving family, clearing a rental property promptly is going to be the last thing on their mind.
    For most landlords, putting additional pressure on a grieving family is not a pleasant prospect.

    When it comes down to it, there will usually be an executor who must necessarily perform certain duties even though grief may make it a difficult task.

    The best you can really hope for is both sides show consideration to the others position. I expect this is what happens in the majority of cases.


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    #34
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    I'm playing devils advocate here.
    Yawns wrote: »
    But put yourself in the other person's position. By withholding deposit, what if they try to be a little bit akward.
    The lease has ended, the person is not in the house. Should the family start getting awkward, what's stopping the landlord from blackbagging the contents? I'm not talking about straight away, I'm talking a couple of weeks after the funeral, and the family are still dragging their feet, as entering the building can be emotionally hard on the family, so they may not want to enter the house where their loved one spent their last few months.
    Yawns wrote: »
    Check the likes of rip.ie to check who is running the arrangements for burial.
    If there is a family. If there isn't, what happens? After non-payment of rent of a month or so, knowing the person is of ill health, you gain access to the house, and find that they died some time ago. You know of no next of kin, there's no correspondence to anyone else. Is there a process in place?


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    #35
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Gatling wrote: »
    Are you been actual serious

    Being serious or been serious?


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    #36
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Jesus, some of the OTT attack responses here.

    I was looking for guidance and advice here.

    There are legalities I am sure to this. Rules and regulations....


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    #37
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,957 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    davo2001 wrote: »
    Don't be a dick, return it to the next of kin.

    Don't go near the next of kin, except to find out who the executor of the estate is. Thelatter is who you should talk to.


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    #38
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    DubCount wrote: »
    The deposit is still owed back to the tenant (or in this case the tenants estate). If a lease is broken in any other way, the deposit is still due back to the tenant. Not sure why you would assume the landlord is entitled to it (unless there is damage or unpaid rent etc.).

    I didn't assume anything, hence my asking for advice.

    So, there are instances where the deposit is not due back to the tenant's estate.


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    #39
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Don't go near the next of kin, except to find out who the executor of the estate is. Thelatter is who you should talk to.

    What I was thinking. It's the executor who would get the deposit back, not just any person.


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    #40
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭SteM


    walshb wrote: »
    Jesus, some of the OTT attack responses here.

    I was looking for guidance and advice here.

    There are legalities I am sure to this. Rules and regulations....

    Meh, sometimes life's not about legalities but doing what's right.

    If someone dies in the middle of a Virgin Media contract would VM pursuit the family for the €200 early cancelation fee I wonder?


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    #41
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    SteM wrote: »
    Meh, sometimes life's not about legalities but doing what's right.

    If someone dies in the middle of a Virgin Media contract would VM pursuit the family for the €200 early cancelation fee I wonder?

    Easy saying that, but should a person be out of pocket or hit with a bill then how easy is it to do it.

    Not sure the example you gave is apt really.

    Anyway, I don't want to get into an argument on it as it's a sad event, but as mentioned, if the landlord is legally entitled to, as well as being out of pocket then I would not see anything wrong with it.


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    #42
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,724 ✭✭✭SteM


    Tbf, the OP just asks if the landlord can retain a deposit in the event of a tenant death. It doesn't mention bring out of pocket or being hit with a bill. That's probably the reason for some of the responses.


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    #43
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    SteM wrote: »
    Tbf, the OP just asks if the landlord can retain a deposit in the event of a tenant death. It doesn't mention bring out of pocket or being hit with a bill. That's probably the reason for some of the responses.

    I did mention break of lease.

    But also out of pocket as regards wear and tear above normal wear and tear...

    Or loss of rent/unpaid rent.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SteM wrote: »
    Meh, sometimes life's not about legalities but doing what's right.

    If someone dies in the middle of a Virgin Media contract would VM pursuit the family for the €200 early cancelation fee I wonder?

    Actually, yes, and they only waive it once they get a copy of the death certificate. I've been an exectutor in the past so can speak from experience.

    In my case the home was owned, so I didn't need to worry about leases, but if in doubt I would contact the executor of the estate(unless of course they contact you). I did a lot of ringing round asking everyone from the ESB to the butcher to put together a final bill, and that was then payed from the estate.

    In the case of a lease, I would imagine it is much the same.


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    #45
    JBWexford
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭JBWexford


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    As per posts above, he is apparently not entitled to. Though if the tenant did damage beyond wear and tear, I presume it would fine to take some of the deposit for that.

    I actually have a close friend who is terminally ill and who is renting currently. We were talking about practicalities recently and she said that she has a note written for her landlord acknowledging the things in the flat that will need to be replaced from her deposit ie. the mattress has some significant stains and will need to be replaced. A lot of terminally ill people will have copious plans made for afterwards. Sudden deaths are more tricky, of course.

    I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope everything will be as peaceful as possible for your friend, and for you, also.


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    #46
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    JBWexford wrote: »
    I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope everything will be as peaceful as possible for your friend, and for you, also.

    Thanks, she's very pragmatic. You'd be amazed how organised the fatally ill can be! :eek:


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    #47
    ZV7841
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭ZV7841


    Does it matter how the death occurred?
    If it were a suicide could it be argued that the deceased broke the lease by his actions?


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    #48
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    In general- on the death of a person, the executor of their estate makes a list of all their assets and liabilities- and ranks any debts in order of the strength of the debt- i.e. secured debts first, unsecured debts last. A deposit- is an asset- rather than a liability- and normally, it would be assumed it could be recovered- with cognisant of any reasonable deductions under the RTA Act.

    A tenancy is legally terminated on the death of the tenant (but not the landlord)- and while I'm not overly familiar with the case referred to earlier in this thread (I believe it relates to the 20 year old UCD who took their life 5-6 years ago- and its not really relevant or appropriate to detail it here), in general- the tenancy ended on the day the tenant passed away, and treatment of the deposit is identical to how a deposit should normally be treated- that is, any unpaid bills are covered, any pre-paid rent added to the deposit, and any costs offset against it- and the balance returned the executor of the person's estate.

    The death of a tenant is not a regular occurence, I'm not aware that its come up in this forum previously (please correct me if I'm wrong).

    Personally- I'd suggest that morally the most approrpriate manner of dealing with this- is simply to contact the executor of the estate and simply return the deposit in full- and chalk any loss down to the cost of doing business. Its not appropriate to do anything else. I'd also suggest to try to do so ASAP- so if there are funeral expenses or other expenses that the executor is likely to encounter immediately- it'll assist them.


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    #49
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Unles the tenant has made a will, there will be no executor. Unless there are substantial assets the relatives will not bother with administration. There will thus be no one to look for the deposit back. Even if there is an administrator or executor they will have difficulty in finding out if there was ever a deposit paid and that there were no arrears of rent or damage at the time of death. By the time they get around to looking for the deposit back the place will have been let to a new tenant. The landlord will be pretty safe in keeping the deposit.


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    #50
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,719 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    walshb wrote:
    if the landlord is legally entitled to, as well as being out of pocket then I would not see anything wrong with it.

    Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.


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    #51
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,715 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

    But it's not just from a legal base...

    There are financial issues to consider too..

    So yes, there can be cases where it's both legal and right (fair).


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    #52
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Unles the tenant has made a will, there will be no executor. Unless there are substantial assets the relatives will not bother with administration. There will thus be no one to look for the deposit back. Even if there is an administrator or executor they will have difficulty in finding out if there was ever a deposit paid and that there were no arrears of rent or damage at the time of death. By the time they get around to looking for the deposit back the place will have been let to a new tenant. The landlord will be pretty safe in keeping the deposit.
    A lot of supposition here, and a suggestion that if you can get away with something, that's okay.

    I prefer the idea of doing the right thing.


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    #53
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    A lot of supposition here, and a suggestion that if you can get away with something, that's okay.

    I prefer the idea of doing the right thing.

    The right thing? The landlord can't just give money to a family member, only a personal representative. Most likely there never will be one. That is not the landlord's fault!


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    #54
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    walshb wrote: »
    But it's not just from a legal base...

    There are financial issues to consider too..

    So yes, there can be cases where it's both legal and right (fair).

    Financial issues ? Assuming there is no back rent due, then it only becomes a moral issue.

    The landlord should make use tact and contact the executor after the funeral to gain control of their property as quick as possible. The return of the deposit can be mentioned as an afterthought.


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    #55
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The right thing? The landlord can't just give money to a family member, only a personal representative. Most likely there never will be one. That is not the landlord's fault!

    For me, if I was a landlord, it would be very easy. Find the next of kin. If they are Irish, that is easily done and even if they are from another country, it's not impossible. Why can't the money be given to the next of kin?


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    #56
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    For me, if I was a landlord, it would be very easy. Find the next of kin. If they are Irish, that is easily done and even if they are from another country, it's not impossible. Why can't the money be given to the next of kin?

    The vast majority of landlords would have no issue finding the appropriate person and returning the deposit.


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    #57
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    For me, if I was a landlord, it would be very easy. Find the next of kin. If they are Irish, that is easily done and even if they are from another country, it's not impossible. Why can't the money be given to the next of kin?

    Because the money may be returned to someone who isn't the deceased tenant's personal representative. It might seem normal enough to return the deposit to the tenant's son, for instance, only to find out that they're the black sheep of the family and disappeared with the deposit which is still owed to the estate.


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    #58
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,957 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    For me, if I was a landlord, it would be very easy. Find the next of kin. If they are Irish, that is easily done and even if they are from another country, it's not impossible. Why can't the money be given to the next of kin?

    Because they may not be responsible for executing the person's will.

    I'm not sure its always easily done either.


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    #59
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The right thing? The landlord can't just give money to a family member, only a personal representative. Most likely there never will be one. That is not the landlord's fault!
    Come off it; this is a suggestion that you should do what you might get away with:
    4ensic15 wrote: »
    ... Even if there is an administrator or executor they will have difficulty in finding out if there was ever a deposit paid and that there were no arrears of rent or damage at the time of death. By the time they get around to looking for the deposit back the place will have been let to a new tenant. The landlord will be pretty safe in keeping the deposit.


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    #60
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Because the money may be returned to someone who isn't the deceased tenant's personal representative. It might seem normal enough to return the deposit to the tenant's son, for instance, only to find out that they're the black sheep of the family and disappeared with the deposit which is still owed to the estate.

    You know what, I'd be willing to take that chance. It's not a big enough amount of money to cause a family rift, but too much for the landlord to hold on to for flimsy reasons. It's the right thing to do to give to the next of kin. Better the next of kin than the landlord. The landlord doesn't have to care about the individual's family politics. And to cite that as a reason for holding on to the deposit is dubious.


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    #61
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,238 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    _Dara_ wrote: »
    You know what, I'd be willing to take that chance. It's not a big enough amount of money to cause a family rift, but too much for the landlord to hold on to for flimsy reasons. It's the right thing to do to give to the next of kin. Better the next of kin than the landlord. The landlord doesn't have to care about the individual's family politics. And to cite that as a reason for holding on to the deposit is dubious.

    The next of kin may have no right to it. What if another person is appointed personal representative and looks for the money from the landlord? The next of kin might be a boozer who would drink the money. The landlord can mind it much better than the next of kin. If a personal representative turns up at some stage the landlord can deal with that person. The landlord can't be expected to chase around after someones relations.


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