Near Misses Thread Volume 2 (So close you can feel it)

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118789043#Comment_118789043

The reality is, the vast majority of people don't know how to fight, regardless of their footwear

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787710#Comment_118787710

You are shouting at him not to move but you were behind and about to undertake him. Likely you were in a blind spot. I only blame you here.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787872#Comment_118787872

He made a massive mistake and thankfully he didn’t do any damage to you. He also realised his mistake and apologised to you. I don’t know what more you wanted or expected.

Going up to him as he was parking or turning or whatever was a dick move and yes he should have stopped but it seems to me like you seek confrontation and getting in under his wheels was just you looking for trouble

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790321#Comment_118790321

They passed me moments before they joined my lane. I was quite visible from the front and rear so if they didn't see me then it was purely poor observation on their behalf.

Furthermore, I wasn't undertaking them (which implies an illegal action by me). I was at that point using the cycle lane which continues straight on.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118790350#Comment_118790350

His massive mistake could have had massive consequences. I was travelling at just over 50km/h on a wet surface. He saw me but didn't bother complying with the law which put me in danger. Thankfully I slowed.

As for what more I wanted, I think I wanted to opportunity to explain how his actions endangered me and scared the crap out of me. Instead I got a dismissive gesture along with a feck-off apology.

I wasn't seeking confrontation nor was I looking for him to effectively asault me with his car.

cletus

It's how and when and where you say these things too, though.

I was coming from my car in my work carpark, and a visitor was parked up. As I passed his car, he wound down his window, threw some litter out, and wound the window back up.

I picked it up, knocked on his window, and when he wound it down again, I said "I think you dropped something, there" and handed it back to him. He took it and mumbled thanks.

We both knew that he didn't "drop" it, but there was no confrontation.

Did this change his behaviour at all? No idea. But at least in this instance he had the thing he knew was wrong to to pointed out to him

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118791375#Comment_118791375

Seth is not in a lane though, he's in a cycle track. All your references to 'lane' are moot. Can you show me where a cycle track is defined as a lane in law?

I'm not excusing the bad driving, the driver should have anticipated the cyclist's actions, but I want to make sure that every cyclist is aware of the legal situation. What happened in that video was overtaking on the left, which is allowed except in certain situations. One of which is that the vehicle to be overtaken "has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/112384088/#Comment_112384088

IANAL, obviously.

5uspect

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792275#Comment_118792275

No.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792399#Comment_118792399

2012 🙂

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print

(e) by substituting for article 14 (inserted by article 6 of the Regulations of 1998) the following:

“Cycle tracks

14. (4) A pedal cycle shall be driven on a cycle track where—

(a) a cycle track is provided on a road, a portion of a road, or an area at the entrance to which traffic sign number RUS 021 (pedestrianised street or area) is provided, or

(b) a cycle track is a contra-flow cycle track where traffic sign number RUS 059 is provided and pedal cycles shall only be driven in a contra-flow direction on such track.

i.e. the mandatory requirement is only for cycle tracks in a pedestrian area or on a contra-flow track.

It's only been nearly a decade since this became law, you'd think people would know it by now.

5uspect

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792085#Comment_118792085

From here:

S.I. No. 332/2012 - Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2012.

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

The driver indicated far too late, the silver car was stopped in traffic and so Seth is correct.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792301#Comment_118792301

This was updated in the above SI and only requires that cyclists must use a cycle lane when it a contraflow lane or in pedestrianised area.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792477#Comment_118792477

I don't understand why you've quoted the legislation that I linked to? It doesn't mention cycle lanes.

As I said, I'm not excusing the bad driving, but in the eyes of the law that was not a legal overtake afaics. The law does not say "has signalled an intention to turn to the left in good time". Regardless of the tardiness of the indicator, it was on before the overtake started.

There are other laws in play here such as driving without due care and attention, but I want to make sure people are aware that cycle tracks do not confer any legal protection while overtaking, unless they are mandatory tracks that a motorised vehicle must not enter.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793308#Comment_118793308

You might have held off,

But at the end of the day he is doing nothing wrong trying to pass the car.

Indication is just that, intention. It doesn't give any right of way and the motorist is crossing another lane so its their job to look...which they clearly did not. In addition to that the motorist only just passed the cyclist so they 100% knew they existed, they simply didn't consider them afterwards.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793671#Comment_118793671

Again, it's not a lane. When overtaking on the left as a cyclist, an indicator from the motorist does in fact effectively give right of way if they are about to execute the movement (such clunky language), as it means the overtake by cyclist is not a legal one.

And again, I'm not excusing **** driving. But let's be correct about it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793005#Comment_118793005

There was no reasonable expectation that he would complete it after he started indicating.

They don't have to complete it, only "execute a movement to the left".

I miss old boards where you could edit quotes, for brevity or emphasis. Is that possible now?

RobertFoster

@buffalo

I miss old boards where you could edit quotes, for brevity or emphasis. Is that possible now?

Only like this, though there's no elegant way to attribute the quote to a poster or post like you could with BBCode ([quote=buffalo] etc.)

5uspect

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792605#Comment_118792605

I initially had a different quote there but I removed it in error after getting frustrated with the new boards interface. I'll try again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118792085#Comment_118792085

The road traffic act interprets: "cycle track" means part of a road, including part of a footway or part of a roadway, which is reserved for the use of pedal cycles and from which all mechanically propelled vehicles, other than mechanically propelled wheelchairs, are prohibited from entering except for the purpose of access.

Does 'part of a road' not meet the threshold, or is lane only reserved for motor vehicles in a 'traffic lane' or a 'bus lane'? A two-way cycle track is defined in the law as having lanes plural so does a cycle track contain a lane also?

The road traffic act lists under interpretations that traffic does not including pedestrians, so we can conclude that cyclists are traffic?

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794525#Comment_118794525

Cyclists can be traffic in a general traffic lane, no objection. And they can be traffic in a cycle track. I'm not sure what difference that makes?

Part of a road does not meet the threshold of lane, no. Any reference to a lane (apart from bus lanes, etc.) in the SI that I see, explicitly calls it a 'traffic lane'. That is marked by the likes of RRM 003 (a broken white line), whereas cycle tracks are marked by RRM 022 or RRM 023.

I would love for someone to show me the SI that defines a cycle track as a lane with all the associated protection that bestows. Or tell me I'm being a moron and point out the inconsistency somewhere. I spent an evening a long time ago trawling various Road Traffic Acts and could not find it. According to Google, there is literally not a single reference to a 'cycle lane' on IrishStatueBook.ie: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Airishstatutebook.ie+%22cycle+lane%22 But as magicbastard points out above, the RTA SIs are layers upon layers, so there could well be something I'm missing.

Even if you look at the detail in SI 2012/332 which made it legal for cyclists to overtake on the left. Drivers can overtake on the left "in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle", i.e. a driver cannot overtake on the left within the same lane, only in the next lane. Cyclists can overtake on the left "where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except...", i.e. cyclists can overtake on the left in the same lane. I know this covers roads with no cycle tracks, but my reading is that it also covers roads with cycle tracks in the traffic lane.

By the way, I'm not claiming any of this makes sense or should be defended. I just want to make the current legal situation clear (or be corrected!). On a unrelated note, an advanced stop box - for cyclists to position themselves ahead of motor traffic at a light - is bounded by two stop lines. It is an offence for a cyclist to cross the first stop line to enter the ASB while the associated traffic light is red, and not all ASBs have a cycle track feeding into them (where the stop line is usually discontinued). Which is nonsense.

MojoMaker

That's the norm on that road unfortunately. Maybe it's knowledge of the 30km/h speed limit ahead of them in the park.

buffalo

I got a cargo bike on Saturday, and despite its ginormous size and corresponding difficulty in not seeing it, I had two near misses just cycling it home.

First at the relatively new cycle track outside the shops in Kilmainham. I'm almost certain it was deliberate. I was waiting at the lights nearby and noticed a Range Rover parked in the crosshatching outside the lane with the hazards on. After my wait of a minute or so at the lights, I got my green and started off. At the same time, the driver got out of the car and ambled around to the far end of it.

He timed it so that he stepped into the cycle track right in front of me and conspicuously did not even glance in my direction. In hindsight, I should have asked him if he was grateful for my anticipation and advance braking. No doubt if I'd hit him (and scooped him up into my box), the narrative would be that it was the fault of the new cycle lane and the poor man was just minding his own business when he was hit by a bloody cyclist.

Later in the journey, I was coming to a crossroads. One car is stopped in the straight/right-turn lane, I'm heading for the left turn lane. There's a green filter light, but it appears to be broken on the nearest light, but it's clearly visible on the far side of the junction. As I approach the junction - about three car lengths out - a driver of an Audi cuts in tightly from the other lane between me and the stopped car. Then she slams on the brakes a few metres in front of me. I brake and cyclist instinct sends me up her inside in an attempt to filter, and the cargo bike hits the curb.

I point at the green light across the junction, she points at the red light on this side. She makes a hands-in-the-air gesture, I point at the green light again. Both lights then turn yellow, and red. We both sit and seethe. To give her the benefit of the doubt, she was probably concentrating too hard on not running me over while performing a daft overtake to notice the green light. Then again, who would bother overtaking that close to a red light?

Cabaal

Who would bother overtaking that close to a red?

Sadly so, so many people.

Had three this morning coming up to a junction that you'll ALWAYS have to stop and wait at, didn't stop three overtakes around me and the trailer....just so they could sit and wait right infront of me. Utterly pointless but yet it endangers me and my kid, especially the last car as they had to pull in to avoid a traffic island.

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118814549#Comment_118814549

As if they plan to stick to it.

Seth Brundle

On my commute this morning - I had put my arm out to signal that I was going to take the third exit (going right)...

https://youtu.be/b1xQOC-Jqf4

I had heard the car approach and to be honest had a gut feeling that I needed to be ready for something stupid given the location. The driver claimed that she didn't see me do that which would make me wonder that if she saw me, why would she comtemplate overtaking me here.

Cabaal

Just curious, any reason for not taking the lane?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824133#Comment_118824133

No reason. It tends to be a fairly quiet part of road at that hour where road position wouldn't really matter.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824319#Comment_118824319

I'm presuming it is the "Must Get In Front" mentality. Even though she was at her destination, she didn't want to be behind a cyclist for even a few seconds.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824808#Comment_118824808

This. I'll go further than taking the lane, I'll go to the right hand side of the lane if I'm taking the third exit. It means I'm not between a driver an the exit they might want to take. I'd be close to the curb of the roundabout itself as I go round

Seth Brundle

In my defence, I normally would and am not sure why I didn't today. Still does not justify the drivers actions either way.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825624#Comment_118825624

😁😁😁

D you know what, I've no idea what I typed curb there. I don't think I've ever called it anything except a kerb before 🤷‍♂️

Seth Brundle

Not sure where to post this but...

https://twitter.com/SafeCyclingEire/status/1508162861037670404

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850688#Comment_118850688

There's always this as a cheaper option https://passpixi.com/

zefer

Had one with a Dublin Bus on Monday on way home from work pull straight across me into a bus stop even though I was already inside the "bus stop" square.

Had to fling myself to curb to avoid getting killed. Went around other side and said it to him and got the usual "yeh i did see you so what" answer. Bus driver behind driving an aircoach actually said to me that he pulled straight in on top of me as I was taking pictures of bus and driver.

Took pictures and details and made complaint to Dublin Bus about him.

Just got mail back from them saying they are investigating and reviewing the cctv but can't let me know the outcome due to GDPR. What a crock of horsesh*t. So this guy is probably going to get told off, if that and is free to do it to someone else then straight away

Idleater

I had one yesterday that was my fault, i was switching from the bus lane to the right hand lane (of 2) that were full and backed up with traffic. There's a yellow box for busses to merge but there was already 3 (and it was still a bit up the road).

Anyway, I went for a gap opening up in front of a phone user, but a car went for it too from the right hand lane.

Braking ensued and I decided I would not make the gap, nor stop in time behind the car in front so went left of the car apologizing profusely to the coach driver almost beside me in the bus lane.

Lesson learned for me.

Seth Brundle

Took pictures and details and made complaint to Dublin Bus about him.

To be honest, I see no point in reporting it to DB. Take it to AGS and have it dealt with properly.

robinph

Just got mail back from them saying they are investigating and reviewing the cctv but can't let me know the outcome due to GDPR. What a crock of horsesh*t. So this guy is probably going to get told off, if that and is free to do it to someone else then straight away

What has GDPR got to do with it? You don't need to know any additional details about the driver that what you already have, that being a photo of them and what route they happened to be driving that day. You just want to be told what action was taken.

You still won't know who they are, where they live, the name of their pet dog or their favourite colour. GDPR getting used as an excuse like that should be challenged.

Seth Brundle

Spotted on Twitter from England - possibly one of the worst I've seen...

https://twitter.com/MuscleClinicUK/status/1511374702866010126?t=G6YAzUFUVq0h0Gsfl5uo7A&s=19

Seth Brundle

(not my videos)

https://twitter.com/Peteer/status/1511798454946783239

https://twitter.com/Peteer/status/1511817178466725896

Seth Brundle

Should we ask the RSA to bring in a similar thing here?

https://twitter.com/Sir_Labz/status/1512722575876575243?t=1qnN-BESsMiuAMMdaE_EZg&s=19

cletus

That's the road your pin is dropped on. I presume you meant to put it on a different road? Otherwise I'd have to question why multiple HGV were using it.

If it is the road you meant, it's the sort of road I would actively seek out to cycle on, as it looks nice a quiet

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906159#Comment_118906159

Ok. That's the sort of road I avoid if I can. Busy road, nowhere to pull in and let faster traffic past

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906524#Comment_118906524

That's all well and good, but I would be of the opinion that if you're on a road where traffic is travelling at 80kph, and there's a build up behind you, it costs very little to pull over, if there's an opportunity, and let the faster traffic past.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118906583#Comment_118906583

I don't drive in heavy urban traffic. If I go to Dublin, I park at the Red Cow Luas and take public transport.

Regardless, it's a false equivalency. A cyclist filtering through heavy urban traffic is not the same as vehicles travelling at 80kph.

MojoMaker

Nonetheless, it just fuels the sentiment that bicycles are *not really* valid forms of transport and *shouldn't really* be there at all.

cletus

You could conceivably do both things. Take primary position until there was the opportunity to allow the faster traffic past

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118907133#Comment_118907133

As I said already, it's possible to do both of the things suggested here. What you choose to do in any situation, is, of course, up to you. I just don't think it has to be a binary position.

I understand primary position, and use it myself when needed. But if I have the opportunity to move aside and allow traffic to pass me, particularly on a national road, I'll happily do that too.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118908099#Comment_118908099

I never said anything of the sort. What I said was you made a false equivalency between cycling on a road where traffic can legally drive at 80kph, and cycling in heavy urban traffic.

Given that city driving is slower, stop start in nature, and involves junctions, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings etc., the speed differential between cycling and driving is vastly reduced from what it would be in a national road.

As a result, in heavy urban traffic, I wouldn't expect either cyclists or drivers to pull over to let other traffic past.

On faster national roads, I will pull over, if I can and it's safe, and allow faster traffic to overtake me. I'd expect someone driving, say, a tractor, to do the same thing.

Have you any other strawmen or red herrings to throw in, or would you like to have a proper grown up conversation

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118913285#Comment_118913285

Weasel words me arse. I said that on a fast road I've no problems pulling in if there's faster traffic behind me. You were, unsurprisingly, affronted on behalf of all cycledom.

You wanted to know if I would pull over for faster cyclists when I was driving in "heavy urban traffic". I told you I don't drive in the city, I walk and use public transport. You chose to ignore this.

I said that I would expect slower traffic, such as tractors, to do the same thing, and pull over (most of whom do, at least in the rural areas I live in). You chose to ignore that.

You then attributed a statement to me that I didn't make. If you could point to where I "specifically said [I] wouldn't pull over for faster cyclists", I'd love to see it

As for me creating "mythical rules", would you ever get over yourself. Who said it was a rule? I said it's something I do.

As regards not complying with my own (non existent) rule, I explained that I see a difference between cycling on a national road, and cycling in a city. You're choosing to either ignore what I said, or deliberately misunderstand it. To be honest, I'm completely unconcerned which one it is, because your level of discussion here is about on a par with what I've come to expect from your posts in general.

*Edited to add* I just noticed you said I expected people to get out of my way. Who, exactly, do I want to get out of my way. I said I get out of other people's way.

cletus

Correct. I offered my opinion on the circumstance that was being discussed. That being, if I, or anyone else, is moving substantially slower than the traffic behind them, then it would seem like common courtesy to move over and let them pass.

The important part here is the substantial difference in speed. This is why I said you were making a false equivalency in your original post. The relative speeds of both cyclists and drivers in the sort of traffic you posited is close enough that there's no real need for either of them to move out of the other's way.

It's possible for fast moving traffic to be substantially slowed by a cyclist.

It's much less likely that fast moving cyclists will be held up by a single slow moving car. It's much more likely that cyclists will be held up by heavy traffic, i.e. lots of slow moving cars

Can I assume from your last post that you're not going to actually address any of the point I made in my post?

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118919134#Comment_118919134

Cars in the city could travel at 50kpm, if it wasn't for all the other cars going at less than 10kph. Why doesn't all of the traffic get out of the way of all the fast moving traffic? Your point is ridiculous

Seth Brundle

I find that traffic along that stretch with the tractor (travelling East from Leixlip towards the N4) you really do need to take the lane and be far enough out that drivers need to think about how they will overtake and consider oncoming traffic, etc. For some reason, if you don't they pretty much never cross the white line when overtaking. The fact that you're moving more slowly due to the hill shouldn't make you reconsider this.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118928086#Comment_118928086

That tractor driver has to be reported, holy moly.

BMW driver - I wouldn't bother, risk of driver getting off vs time and effort of reporting. But the first one, even though I was expecting it, yikes!

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118944370#Comment_118944370

It's a box ticking exercise, they don't care too much about design they just see "must have cycle lane" so they throw down some paint and see it as job done. No thoughts about if its usable, safe or otherwise.

Near me the council change a street to one way, they claim the street has cycle LANES but there's no markings or signs anywhere.

Going with the traffic you could of course cycle on the road. But coming back you would be forced to cycle on the extremely narrow footpath which on one side is too narrow for a bike because of an electrical pole and on the other there's only two inches of clearance for a bike to pass.

But on their books it has cycle lanes.... 😡