Sacking an employee

Clara B

Hi all,
I have an employee I need to let go. There are lots of issues that are mounting and i feel we have given her every opportunity to resolve issues.
I had a meeting with her 2 weeks ago where I detailed my expectations and new policies to adhere to. I have since heard from staff that she has not adhered to them. One such policy(we operate a food business) was that staff could not remove food from sale and store it for themselves. Stock left at end of shift that cannot be sold the next day (pastries that are only good for 1 day etc) are given to staff. We also provide breakfast and lunch. She removed 8 items before lunch and kept them to one side for herself and her sister(who also works for us). That is stealing- no other word for it-and gross misconduct in my mind.
She is also giving her sister, who only works a 4 hour shift,a half hour lunch break and not declaring it-we pay a 15 minute break,but not the 30 minute break. I have heard she uses the staffs tips to balance the till when there are issues.

I have a witness to the removal of food from sale, I have witnesses to the breaks for her sister and I have a previous employee who witnessed the removal of tips for the till.

These are issues that to me warrant immediate sacking. Just want your thoughts on it. You cant be too careful with employees. The other lady has to go too-she places her orders for stock with her sister!

Trouble is-I honestly dont think that she will even see this as stealing!

Thanks

Bandara

Clara B wrote: »

Hi all,
I have an employee I need to let go. There are lots of issues that are mounting and i feel we have given her every opportunity to resolve issues.
I had a meeting with her 2 weeks ago where I detailed my expectations and new policies to adhere to. I have since heard from staff that she has not adhered to them. One such policy(we operate a food business) was that staff could not remove food from sale and store it for themselves. Stock left at end of shift that cannot be sold the next day (pastries that are only good for 1 day etc) are given to staff. We also provide breakfast and lunch. She removed 8 items before lunch and kept them to one side for herself and her sister(who also works for us). That is stealing- no other word for it-and gross misconduct in my mind.
She is also giving her sister, who only works a 4 hour shift,a half hour lunch break and not declaring it-we pay a 15 minute break,but not the 30 minute break. I have heard she uses the staffs tips to balance the till when there are issues.

I have a witness to the removal of food from sale, I have witnesses to the breaks for her sister and I have a previous employee who witnessed the removal of tips for the till.

These are issues that to me warrant immediate sacking. Just want your thoughts on it. You cant be too careful with employees. The other lady has to go too-she places her orders for stock with her sister!

Trouble is-I honestly dont think that she will even see this as stealing!

Thanks

Straightforward enough really. How long are they with you ?

Investigation meeting, results of investigation, dismissal

Make sure you do everything by the book x 10 !

If your not sure what to do get advice from an expert, one small error will open the door for her to go unfair dismissals.

I presume you realise the sister has to go as well.

Here's the letter for the investigation meeting to get you started

Dear 'Mary',

I write to inform you that you are required to attend an investigation meeting to be held under Clara B Limited ( T/A Claras Cafe ) disciplinary procedures on Tuesday 8th August at 10am. The meeting will also be attended by our HR person(or else enter witness name here), Joe Bloggs. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss concerns emanating from the till procedures, stock handling procedures, and behaviour around break entitlements. At this meeting, you will be given the opportunity to make any points which you wish taken into account and to bring forward any matters which you consider may be relevant. Following a full review of the facts the outcome of this meeting may be to request you to attend a disciplinary meeting. You should refer to Claras Cafe disciplinary procedures for further information.

I remind you that you have the right to be accompanied under the Disciplinary Procedure by a colleague or representative. Please confirm that you will be able to attend on the time and date stated.

Please note that you are suspended with full pay until this matter investigated and resolved.

Clara

Bandara

Also, and I only say this as i remember you are quite newly opened

Stop giving your staff breakfast and lunch, stop letting them take pastries home, stop giving people who only work 4 hours a break.

You need to eliminate all these as they are costing you money and you cannot afford to lose money. Providing the above won't keep your staff with you, having a strong well operated business will, staff just want to come to work, somewhat enjoy their work, go home and get paid at the end of the week. Thats all. We as employers start to over think things and introduce these 'incentives', they don't make any difference

just my opinion !

knipex

Clara B wrote: »

Hi all,
I have an employee I need to let go. There are lots of issues that are mounting and i feel we have given her every opportunity to resolve issues.
I had a meeting with her 2 weeks ago where I detailed my expectations and new policies to adhere to. I have since heard from staff that she has not adhered to them. One such policy(we operate a food business) was that staff could not remove food from sale and store it for themselves. Stock left at end of shift that cannot be sold the next day (pastries that are only good for 1 day etc) are given to staff. We also provide breakfast and lunch. She removed 8 items before lunch and kept them to one side for herself and her sister(who also works for us). That is stealing- no other word for it-and gross misconduct in my mind.
She is also giving her sister, who only works a 4 hour shift,a half hour lunch break and not declaring it-we pay a 15 minute break,but not the 30 minute break. I have heard she uses the staffs tips to balance the till when there are issues.

I have a witness to the removal of food from sale, I have witnesses to the breaks for her sister and I have a previous employee who witnessed the removal of tips for the till.

These are issues that to me warrant immediate sacking. Just want your thoughts on it. You cant be too careful with employees. The other lady has to go too-she places her orders for stock with her sister!

Trouble is-I honestly dont think that she will even see this as stealing!

Thanks

1. Did you document the meeting 2 weeks ago ?
2. Did you allow her or offer her the opportunity to have someone with her ?
3. Did you inform her it was part of a disciplinary process ?
4. Did you issue a warning, verbal or written ?
5. If so was it documented and acknowledged ?

Perhaps most importantly

How long are they (she and her sister) working for you ? Is it under 12 months ?

hairyslug

Would it be an option (to be able to avoid any future legal problems) that you present them with your findings and suggest that they leave instead of being fired. Ive no personal experience in this, this is just what my previous employer did with staff who stole (we worked in a high value distribution centre so theft by seasonal staff was common)

Bandara

hairyslug wrote: »

Would it be an option (to be able to avoid any future legal problems) that you present them with your findings and suggest that they leave instead of being fired. Ive no personal experience in this, this is just what my previous employer did with staff who stole (we worked in a high value distribution centre so theft by seasonal staff was common)

Exactly. Thats what you do in the minutes before the disciplinary meeting starts, you have the person hosting the meeting informally chat to the staff member and suggest that.

Always has worked for me

You make sure that they write a resignation letter on the spot and 'suggest' that in the letter they thank Clara for the opportunity. Leaves you very well protected.

screamer

If they are with you less than a year it's pretty easy to just let them go. No need to go into the he said she said stuff just that it's not working out and give them their notice. Of course make sure you get a HR expert to guide you but a lot easier way to get rid of the employee than misconduct etc which will tie you up in knots as you walk through it.

daheff

other than these 3 issues, is the person a good worker? Are they influencial with other workers? If they are and you sack her, then expect bad morale, bad service and a damaged business.


To my mind, the using tips to balance the till issue isnt a sackable offence (others might disagree). Its something I've seen done elsewhere. This person might be using her previous experience to do this. the problem with a short till is that the person responsible for the till on the day is then culpable. Your 'problem employee' may be trying to correct the issue without it becoming a bigger problem....and not leaving you, the business owner out of pocket.

Ask yourself, if your employee leaves, what will you do to resolve the short till?

For the break thing -best to put it out to all staff that no breaks are to be taken on 4 hour shifts going forward.

For the food issue -as somebody else said you need to stop letting people take the food. Talk to the food cloud people. They can come take food at the end of the day for homeless people. None of your staff would (openly) disagree with this idea.


Overall I think you need to have another meeting with this person first. Tell them you had a meeting already and these issues have not been addressed and that you are formally putting her on a PIP until things improve.
Document EVERYTHING.

bbudab

You should give extra or left over pastries to the homeless.
I'm sure there are agencies that would collect them from you at the end of the day.

Clara B

Bandara wrote: »

Straightforward enough really. How long are they with you ?

Investigation meeting, results of investigation, dismissal

Make sure you do everything by the book x 10 !

If your not sure what to do get advice from an expert, one small error will open the door for her to go unfair dismissals.

I presume you realise the sister has to go as well.

Here's the letter for the investigation meeting to get you started

Dear 'Mary',

I write to inform you that you are required to attend an investigation meeting to be held under Clara B Limited ( T/A Claras Cafe ) disciplinary procedures on Tuesday 8th August at 10am. The meeting will also be attended by our HR person(or else enter witness name here), Joe Bloggs. The purpose of the meeting is to discuss concerns emanating from the till procedures, stock handling procedures, and behaviour around break entitlements. At this meeting, you will be given the opportunity to make any points which you wish taken into account and to bring forward any matters which you consider may be relevant. Following a full review of the facts the outcome of this meeting may be to request you to attend a disciplinary meeting. You should refer to Claras Cafe disciplinary procedures for further information.

I remind you that you have the right to be accompanied under the Disciplinary Procedure by a colleague or representative. Please confirm that you will be able to attend on the time and date stated.

Please note that you are suspended with full pay until this matter investigated and resolved.

Clara

The first one who's the issue is with me a year and a half, the second is part time and been here 2 months. Wasn't intending on keeping her on anyway as she is just not working out. Definitely want rid of her now after hearing issues from staff.
Just to clarify for a previous poster I don't allow breaks under 4.5 hours. That's a big issue for me with this girl as she knows not to do it and is allowing her sister take half an hour. It costs me the pay for the half hour and any additional time spent be staff working to make up for that!
Should I speak to them together?
What about owed a/l? Is there still an entitlement to it seen as there's stealing involved?

Thanks for your comments-very helpful

Clara B

bbudab wrote: »

You should give extra or left over pastries to the homeless.
I'm sure there are agencies that would collect them from you at the end of the day.

Yes there are and that's a good idea. We initially did it to prevent staff taking stock!

Pelvis

Make an example of the one there only 2 months. See how it affects the behaviour of the others.

If you're lucky the one who you really want rid of will just quit in solidarity with her sister!

Clara B

daheff wrote: »

other than these 3 issues, is the person a good worker? Are they influencial with other workers? If they are and you sack her, then expect bad morale, bad service and a damaged business.


To my mind, the using tips to balance the till issue isnt a sackable offence (others might disagree). Its something I've seen done elsewhere. This person might be using her previous experience to do this. the problem with a short till is that the person responsible for the till on the day is then culpable. Your 'problem employee' may be trying to correct the issue without it becoming a bigger problem....and not leaving you, the business owner out of pocket.

Ask yourself, if your employee leaves, what will you do to resolve the short till?

For the break thing -best to put it out to all staff that no breaks are to be taken on 4 hour shifts going forward.

For the food issue -as somebody else said you need to stop letting people take the food. Talk to the food cloud people. They can come take food at the end of the day for homeless people. None of your staff would (openly) disagree with this idea.


Overall I think you need to have another meeting with this person first. Tell them you had a meeting already and these issues have not been addressed and that you are formally putting her on a PIP until things improve.
Document EVERYTHING.

Honestly this person is not popular. I feel I would get better longevity out of staff were she not here. She is sweet, to my face at any rate, but she has to be hand heald in all tasks and totally lacks common sense. Till is always short, could be cents or even €2. She can never explain. I just feel she needs to go now-I can't have her in the shop if I can't trust her

PGE1970

Remember also that she will not have a claim for unfair dismissal unless she has 52 weeks continuous service with you.

knipex

Clara B wrote: »

The first one who's the issue is with me a year and a half, the second is part time and been here 2 months. Wasn't intending on keeping her on anyway as she is just not working out. Definitely want rid of her now after hearing issues from staff.
Just to clarify for a previous poster I don't allow breaks under 4.5 hours. That's a big issue for me with this girl as she knows not to do it and is allowing her sister take half an hour. It costs me the pay for the half hour and any additional time spent be staff working to make up for that!
Should I speak to them together?
What about owed a/l? Is there still an entitlement to it seen as there's stealing involved?

Thanks for your comments-very helpful

The one who has been with you 18 months.. Get advice from a HR company or a solicitor.. In fact I would advise any employer to have a good solicitor with employment law experience, get them to review your contracts etc..

In terms of disciplinary process. Document everything.. If its not in writing and acknowledged then it didn't happen.

look here

http://employmentrightsireland.com/a-step-by-step-disciplinary-procedure-from-verbal-warning-to-dismissal/

There was a similar case with an employee taking food, with video evidence where the employee lost their job that resulted in a successful claim against the employer.

get advice and not from the internet.


The one who has been with you 2 months. Call her in, now, today, as soon as possible. tell her its not working out, thank her for her time. Tell her you will post out her P45 and all owed wages will be paid as normal.. Don't get into arguments or debates just thank you and goodbye. Do not get into who did what.. The more you say the more chance there is of getting in trouble..

Clara B

Bandara wrote: »

Also, and I only say this as i remember you are quite newly opened

Stop giving your staff breakfast and lunch, stop letting them take pastries home, stop giving people who only work 4 hours a break.

You need to eliminate all these as they are costing you money and you cannot afford to lose money. Providing the above won't keep your staff with you, having a strong well operated business will, staff just want to come to work, somewhat enjoy their work, go home and get paid at the end of the week. Thats all. We as employers start to over think things and introduce these 'incentives', they don't make any difference

just my opinion !

Hi Bandara

Thank you and you are right. I sometimes think from an employee perspective. Just to note I don't give breaks under 4.5 hours-that's why I am also looking at getting rid of this girl. She knows not to but does it anyway. I will eliminate the pastries but as a good establishment I think food at lunchtime is par for the course.

All My Stars Aligned

If the employee is stealing then you can dismiss her on the spot. You do not need to hold a disciplinary meeting with her.

As for the provision of lunch to staff. If this is not being abused y the rest of the staff I would suggest that you continue doing so. I would imagine that it costs you very little to do so. Staff retention in the service industry is difficult and these small things do reflect well on you as an employer.

knipex

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

If the employee is stealing then you can dismiss her on the spot. You do not need to hold a disciplinary meeting with her.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/10-000-for-former-dunnes-employee-1.540595

There are many many many many more examples similar to this..

it all depends own what you define as theft..

Clara B

knipex wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/10-000-for-former-dunnes-employee-1.540595

There are many many many many more examples similar to this..

it all depends own what you define as theft..

This is a good example-although I think this situation is different
She was informed in writing that all staff could take left over pastries but it explicitly said any sellable stock was not to be taken. At end of shift it could be purchased. I supsequently discussed this with her also so she was fully aware.

Clara B

Clara B wrote: »

Hi Bandara

Thank you and you are right. I sometimes think from an employee perspective. Just to note I don't give breaks under 4.5 hours-that's why I am also looking at getting rid of this girl. She knows not to but does it anyway. I will eliminate the pastries but as a good establishment I think food at lunchtime is par for the course.

I remember when I was in college I worked in a cafe as a chef, and we were allowed food at lunch time. I was doing a lot of gym training at the time and would make myself a 'heart attack' wrap as I called it. A few fistfuls of chicken about 5 rashers and a whole host of other stuff went in there. A nice big glass of fresh orange juice I had with that too. Thought nothing of it really in terms of costs to my boss. He finally saw what I was eating after a few months and changed his whole food plan for staff. I was probably costing him 20 euro a day with what I was eating, but that changed to only being allowed Tea or Coffee, plus one pre-made sandwich every day, and it had to be ticked off when taken. He went bankrupt eventually despite having an amazing cafe in terms of decor, menu and solid location. He had had problems with stealing and various other things, but really he wasn't on top of the small costs.
I think you need rigid policies in your line of business, and like Bandara I'd say all the extra's and incentives are not needed.

Clara B

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I remember when I was in college I worked in a cafe as a chef, and we were allowed food at lunch time. I was doing a lot of gym training at the time and would make myself a 'heart attack' wrap as I called it. A few fistfuls of chicken about 5 rashers and a whole host of other stuff went in there. A nice big glass of fresh orange juice I had with that too. Thought nothing of it really in terms of costs to my boss. He finally saw what I was eating after a few months and changed his whole food plan for staff. I was probably costing him 20 euro a day with what I was eating, but that changed to only being allowed Tea or Coffee, plus one pre-made sandwich every day, and it had to be ticked off when taken. He went bankrupt eventually despite having an amazing cafe in terms of decor, menu and solid location. He had had problems with stealing and various other things, but really he wasn't on top of the small costs.
I think you need rigid policies in your line of business, and like Bandara I'd say all the extra's and incentives are not needed.

Yes all those costs do add up! We did have a guy doing something similar and I let him go. All the other staff take a sandwich and a cup of tea at lunch-that's it. I don't allow hot food and if they have a drink they pay for it. Some will take he piss and I say it immediately. She is the only one doing this and I directed her to stop both in an Elaine and in person. The fact that she did it again is the issue.
I found a bag full of cakes boxed up 2 weeks ago-I knew they were hers, she's the only one stupid enough to use 4 boxes at a cost of 24 cent each to steal stuff in!! Nobody else would do that. I had all staff together and questioned who's it was -no one would say anything until this week-she's on holidays.
I have new staff in and replace no her and her sister will eliminate all old staff. The manager I want to replace her with is very experienced and no nonsense

knipex

Clara B wrote: »

This is a good example-although I think this situation is different
She was informed in writing that all staff could take left over pastries but it explicitly said any sellable stock was not to be taken. At end of shift it could be purchased. I supsequently discussed this with her also so she was fully aware.

If this is in writing and documented and you can provide evidence that she was aware of the policy then you are on a good footing.

However I would still get legal advice. Labour law and some of the findings from the old EAT and now WRC can be, shall we say, "frustrating". The last thing you want to do is open yourself to potentially months and years of HR and legal issues followed by a payout.

As someone who has been on both ends of the HR process I can assure you that no one wants that and the only one who wins is the legal team. Its far far cheaper and easier to pay for and get the advice in advance..

delboythedub

A little more supervision from your side of this person and if this fails then a verbal warning and if nessary after that a written warning. If said person ignored that then you will have done everything right so then you have the right to let her go. Hope it works out well for everybody as it's not nice to be in a situation to have to fire somebody.

PGE1970

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

If the employee is stealing then you can dismiss her on the spot. You do not need to hold a disciplinary meeting with her.

I would not recommend this course of action.

Stealing can be considered gross misconduct which is a sackable offence.

However, her contract will have a Grievance & Disciplinary policy attached. You still need to follow this even if it means that she is dismissed. The WRC can find that she was unfairly dismissed not on the merits of the decision but on the way it was carried out.

If you simply tell someone to pack their bags and ignore your own policy (or the principles of natural justice), you are leaving yourself exposed. Talk to your HR consultant or solicitor first.

CeilingFly

I'm guessing they are employed less than 12 months as previous posts suggest the business is about 10 months old.

If it is less than 12 months simply say that they are not suitable for the role and that their employment is beign terminated.

Pay them a weeks wage in lieu of notice and show them the door.

Once its over 12 months its hell to get rid of an employee and you have to follow very stingent procedures and they can cause immense trouble and cost if they go to WRC.

Cianos

Can someone expand on the laws that govern the first 12 months of employment please?

Can the employer dismiss an employee just by saying it's not working out (in other words, without having to prove grounds for dismissal otherwise) within the first 12 months?

If a probation period (of 12 months or other) is not specified within a contract, does that change things, or does the period of 12 months have to be specified in the contract?

Thanks

Red Alert

If you decide to withdraw "perks" like that be prepared for good employees to stop going out of their way to help you.

lifeandtimes

Clara B wrote: »

Hi all,
I have since heard from staff that she has not adhered to them.
I have heard she uses the staffs tips to balance the till when there are issues.
I have a witness to the removal of food from sale, I have witnesses to the breaks for her sister and I have a previous employee who witnessed the removal of tips for the till

I really can't believe no one has said this yet but do you have any evidence of this?

Your entire post is describing you heard from this person and that person but have you actually seen this with your own eyes?
Have you conducted an investigation to gather evidence that can be presented to this person to explain?
If not and you sack this person based on word of mouth from people who could be conspiring against her,I mean you did say she's unpopular

Clara B wrote: »

Honestly this person is not popular

Them you are leaving yourself open to a very costly lesson in business management,trust me.
As said before there is footage of a woman taking food from a deli from a very big food company and she still won an unfair dismissal case based on how things were done and employees being able to take food and pay later etc. You openly admit they are allowed take stuff at the end of the day as well which can be construed to this employees legal defense benifit.
Gather evidence,document everything and get legal advice from a professional not a boards site BEFORE you sack this employee

Bandara

Red Alert wrote: »

If you decide to withdraw "perks" like that be prepared for good employees to stop going out of their way to help you.

Nonsense.

So 'good' employees will only do a good job if they get free breakfast and lunches ?

Employees are good because they work well and are good at their jobs, they are good because that is their work ethic. They don't stop being good and purposely be 'bad' because their employer explains that they cannot feed them for free any longer as the company cannot sustain it.

'Good' employees will understand and work with the Employer once they are treated in the correct manner.

CeilingFly

Cianos wrote: »

Can someone expand on the laws that govern the first 12 months of employment please?

Can the employer dismiss an employee just by saying it's not working out (in other words, without having to prove grounds for dismissal otherwise) within the first 12 months?

If a probation period (of 12 months or other) is not specified within a contract, does that change things, or does the period of 12 months have to be specified in the contract?

Thanks

In short, yes.

But be careful not to give a specific reason. "its not working out" and "we have challenges we must address which involves cost cutting" are two non specific reasons.

One weeks notice or payment in lieu.

If employee is pregnant, they have protection from this.

knipex

Cianos wrote: »

Can someone expand on the laws that govern the first 12 months of employment please?

Can the employer dismiss an employee just by saying it's not working out (in other words, without having to prove grounds for dismissal otherwise) within the first 12 months?

If a probation period (of 12 months or other) is not specified within a contract, does that change things, or does the period of 12 months have to be specified in the contract?

Thanks

During the first 12 months of employment the employee, any employee has no access to the unfair dismissal process. So essentially yes.

However that doe not remove all protections (breach of contract etc), so in practice within 12 months the employer can let you go without giving a reason.

There are exemptions (for example if you can show that you were fired for trade union membership or activity, because you are pregnant, because you made a protected disclosure) and it may still be possible to sue for other reasons (breach of contract etc) so always best to get advice..