€5k for people on the dole to milk cows

Bass Reeves

Keepgrowing wrote: »

This thread really illustrates the problem on some dairy farms re keeping labour.

The farmer needs to change and mat I say grow up a bit.

I'd suspect most posters aren't in fact employing anyone so really don't have a clue what they're talking about, pure opinion and you all know the saying........."like arse holes, everyone has one"

This is not about farmers needing to grow up a bit but rather the reality of the present labour market. I agree that farmers if they employ people need to change and realize that an employee is just that an employee. All they have to do is arrive on time do there work and should be allowed to finish on time. They should have adequate working conditions, a changing area/wet room, access to a canteen/tea room and maybe a shower area.

They should be trained in health and safety around farm and there responsibility cleared defined. They should get paid for bank holidays and annual leave etc.

But rather we are dealing with the reality of a scheme that is targeting longterm employed and seeing if it is the panacea for farm labour shortages. IMO and it is an opinion just like yours I cannot see it providing I cannot see it making a huge impact. Yes some will manage to make it work. However some are deluded if they think this will even solve a seasonal issue around calving etc as scheme is at wrong end of tax year. I also imagine and I have not seen details of scheme that it is based around 100/week not 5K/year.

Finally look around the local village/town how many of these propective employee's have cars to carry the 3-10 mile out the road to work.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Deleted User wrote: »

There are more unemployed than DOALIES and DRUGGIES. When a farmer interviews a prospective employee, he/she decides who they feel able for the job. They're not being forced to pay unsuitable workers. Farming groups reckon that 6,000 workers will be needed in the coming years. This is a start. Give it and them a chance instead of rolling out the tired old gripes of unemployed people unwilling or unable to work.

I remain unconvinced that any significant numbers of people from outside the traditional agricultural catchment will be attracted to work in dairying. As said already, it's a dangerous occupation and the hours are, to say the least, unattractive to the vast majority of available potential workforce.

Add in the fact that the best the farmers taking them on will get out of the scheme will be two milkings a week over the year.

The majority of the future workforce in dairying, outside of family labour, will be farmers and farmers son/daughters in the local areas of the farms they will be employed on while also working on their own or their parents farms.

This is just a nice glossy 'Look at the fantastic imaginative scheme we have dreamt up so we can look like we are doing something', imo.

bogman_bass

Lads are making out that milking is rocket science and only those that have been around cows since they were in short trousers are fit to do it.

Sorry to burst your bubble lads but it's not.

Dairy farming is highly skilled because it has so many different disciplines but milking on its own with suitable training is no more difficult than any other job if the set up is right.

Look at the US and the amount of migrant workers milking thousands of cows.

Yes, you can't just roll up off the street and do it but you would want to be fairly useless not to be able to do it after 20 days training

Icelandicseige

Coolfresian wrote: »

A very one sided opnion. The majority of farmers treat and pay their workers very well so don't generalise all farmers in what u are saying. It might also be worth saying that some employees don't exactly live up to what they think they are worth.
As for the future of dairying in Ireland I doubt many people hope it end up the new Zealand way if it has to 'weed' out farmers.

As for this scheme I think it's a fantastic initiative and I'd give anyone that has the get up and go to do the course and look for the work every chance and more. Fair play to anyone that gets involved.

Sorry didn't mean all should of said MOST farmers...not all as I have worked for the odd good one at times.. The likes of keep growing who posts here. The industry needs lots and mean LOTS more of him/her. Thats all I am saying.

Sam Kade

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This is not about farmers needing to grow up a bit but rather the reality of the present labour market. I agree that farmers if they employ people need to change and realize that an employee is just that an employee. All they have to do is arrive on time do there work and should be allowed to finish on time. They should have adequate working conditions, a changing area/wet room, access to a canteen/tea room and maybe a shower area.

They should be trained in health and safety around farm and there responsibility cleared defined. They should get paid for bank holidays and annual leave etc.

But rather we are dealing with the reality of a scheme that is targeting longterm employed and seeing if it is the panacea for farm labour shortages. IMO and it is an opinion just like yours I cannot see it providing I cannot see it making a huge impact. Yes some will manage to make it work. However some are deluded if they think this will even solve a seasonal issue around calving etc as scheme is at wrong end of tax year. I also imagine and I have not seen details of scheme that it is based around 100/week not 5K/year.

Finally look around the local village/town how many of these propective employee's have cars to carry the 3-10 mile out the road to work.

So this is why you think it's subsidised even though you don't know the details.

Bullocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This is the nub of the issue. We are at the bottom of the barrel labour wise. As well this idea that farm assist workers will fill the gap is deluded most are west of Ireland single men. Very few in dairy area's. Again if they are in Kilkenny or Waterford if they had get up and go they be working already

This is what I was thinking when reading this thread and thought it might be different around the country
I know a few lads on farm assist / dole and they havent a notion of doing any course . I'm not an expert but one of them was telling me he was delighted to have switched from jobseekers to farm assist because he wouldnt have to do any training courses on farm assist and his money went straight into his account as opposed to having to collect it every week in the Post Office :rolleyes:

Anybody not working around here at the minute must not have to or want to work because there are plenty of vacancies in lots of different sectors

Sam Kade

Bullocks wrote: »

This is what I was thinking when reading this thread and thought it might be different around the country
I know a few lads on farm assist / dole and they havent a notion of doing any course . I'm not an expert but one of them was telling me he was delighted to have switched from jobseekers to farm assist because he wouldnt have to do any training courses on farm assist and his money went straight into his account as opposed to having to collect it every week in the Post Office :rolleyes:

Anybody not working around here at the minute must not have to or want to work because there are plenty of vacancies in lots of different sectors

Sad outlook but I don't know of any farmer that would even admit they were on farm assist.

Buford T. Justice V

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I remain unconvinced that any significant numbers of people from outside the traditional agricultural catchment will be attracted to work in dairying. As said already, it's a dangerous occupation and the hours are, to say the least, unattractive to the vast majority of available potential workforce.

Add in the fact that the best the farmers taking them on will get out of the scheme will be two milkings a week over the year.

The majority of the future workforce in dairying, outside of family labour, will be farmers and farmers son/daughters in the local areas of the farms they will be employed on while also working on their own or their parents farms.

This is just a nice glossy 'Look at the fantastic imaginative scheme we have dreamt up so we can look like we are doing something', imo.

It is the lack of traditional farming family members willing to do the job that is causing the problem. Hence the need to look elsewhere. Farmers need to give this a chance. It's up to them to choose a worker they feel suits them and the job. Put preconceived ideas out of your heads and you might be pleasantly surprised.

Bullocks

bogman_bass wrote: »

Lads are making moutvthat milking is rocket science and only those that have been around cows since they were in short trousers are fit to do it.

Sorry to burst your bubble lads but it's not.

Dairy farming is highly skilled because it has so many different disciplines but milking on its own with suitable training is no more difficult than any other job if the set up is right.

Look at the US and the amount of migrant workers milking thousands of cows.

Yes, you can't just roll up off the street and do it but you would want to be fairly useless not to be able to do it after 20 days training

You're spot on , this course isnt to turn out farm scientists just workers .
No matter the job nobody should throw a newbie in the deep end .
I think alot of farmers think no one else can do their job mostly because they work alone so much and dont see anyone elses methods .

Bullocks

Sam Kade wrote: »

Sad outlook but I don't know of any farmer that would even admit they were on farm assist.

I wouldn't be announcing it to the world either ,but what we are heading for now is 2nd and even 3rd generation of social welfare families that couldnt care about finding work and feel entitled to every scheme going whether they need it or not .

Bullocks

Bullocks wrote: »

I wouldn't be announcing it to the world either ,but what we are heading for now is 2nd and even 3rd generation of social welfare families that couldnt care about finding work and feel entitled to every scheme going whether they need it or not .

You could also say that we're now heading for 2nd and even 3rd generation farming families who feel entitled to generous grants either or both from EU or College SISI.

Bullocks

Deleted User wrote: »

You could also say that we're now heading for 2nd and even 3rd generation farming families who feel entitled to generous grants either or both from EU or College SISI.

Generous my eye , maybe for a few but not everybody

patsy_mccabe

It really is shocking the attitude to the unemployed here.:( Takes me back to the early '90s when I was unemployed after finishing college. The amount of snide remarks I had to listen to. Most of these from those that were only working because they had family contacts. Not everyone that is unemployed is a drug addict FFS. The labour market is more dynamic than it ever was. People will have more jobs in their lives than ever before. Myself included. I've worked on farms, hotels, factories. To be honest, working on farms was the worst of all. If you want to feel belittled in life, go work on an Irish farm. Nothing like the landed gentry to look down their nose at you.
I have elderly neighbours and to this day they still talk about how they were treated on farms they worked on, when they were young.

Sam Kade

Deleted User wrote: »

You could also say that we're now heading for 2nd and even 3rd generation farming families who feel entitled to generous grants either or both from EU or College SISI.

Are you going to sign up for the scheme?

Who2

People need to try it. Boards will be full of horror stories.ive tried these lads and they rarely work out. People can throw all the " i 'll be a great and fair employer" and these lads are great going of the popular viewpoint, but the reality is good staff aren't available through these schemes. It's like going fishing in a puddle.

Sam Kade

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

It really is shocking the attitude to the unemployed here.:( Takes me back to the early '90s when I was unemployed after finishing college. The amount of snide remarks I had to listen to. Most of these from those that were only working because they had family contacts. Not everyone that is unemployed is a drug addict FFS. The labour market is more dynamic than it ever was. People will have more jobs in their lives than ever before. Myself included. I've worked on farms, hotels, factories. To be honest, working on farms was the worst of all. If you want to feel belittled in life, go work on an Irish farm. Nothing like the landed gentry to look down their nose at you.
I have elderly neighbours and to this day they still talk about how they were treated on farms they worked on, when they were young.

I've worked on a few as well, to be honest not every Irish farmer is like that and I'm sure you'll find bad one's in other countries as well.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Deleted User wrote: »

You could also say that we're now heading for 2nd and even 3rd generation farming families who feel entitled to generous grants either or both from EU or College SISI.

What grants do farmers receive that others don't? Farmers BPS is a payment to compensate farmers for the EU allowing toll free access to imports at below production costs, costs that are high because of EU regulations that are loosely imposed on imports (see Brazilian beef import saga)

Likewise, EU workers get subsidised wages but, instead of a yearly payment and numerous audit and regulatory inspections, it is framed in job security and minimum wage regulations along with generous unemployment benefit, health care, maternity/paternity leave etc, etc, etc that self employed aren't entitled to or, if they are, at a higher cost and reduced benefits.

College grants are based on incomes in a particular year to qualify. If your income is below a certain threahold then you qualify for full or partial grants. If you wish to add assets owned into the scheme, then I would welcome it as pension schemes homes and other benefits would also have to be added into the calculations. I note, with much mirth, how quickly the Labour party dropped their demands for assets to be included in calculations once the full scale of benefit losses to its supporters became clear.

Mooooo

There are generalisations coming from both sides. Id say if it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't. There are every sort in all walks of life. My understanding was that they would be placed using the frs so they will be providing the service. Anyone I know who've used frs and has had a good lad arrive have often offered work directly to them on better terms than the frs and if they weren't happy with someone just rang frs to say it wasn't working out. Generally those that are good tend to have work anyway but people can always be caught out and via redundancies or what ever so at least give a lad a chance. The lad working here was ain building sites from early teens was building parlour with neighbour 8 years ago and ended up staying. No qualifications just a good attitude and will8ng to try any job. He knows his worth also and id wager he'll never be out of work

Sam Kade

Do they think they will get full employment from milking alone? I know plenty working with the FRS over the years any that were doing milking were running around like headless chickens driving from one farm to the next at their own expense to get 3 milkings done to get a decent wage.

I'm not arguing for or against farm grants. Nor am I saying life long dole is right. I'm just pointing out common (incorrect) perceptions from both sides. Non farmers only hear about farmers getting money from the EU and free college education for their kids. Farmers, on the other hand claim that everyone on the dole are wasters and druggies.
Due to the lack of farmers families willing to do the work, other options have to be looked at. I'm suggesting that until it's been given a fair trial, don't knock it.

kowtow

It's to be commended that people are thinking of creative solutions to a labour problem, but as always there are unintended consequences.

The first - which I don't think has been mentioned at all - is that unemployment benefit is paid to those who are available for and looking for full time work. Being able to earn some money part time milking cows without jeopardizing the benefit is a positive thing - both for the farmer and for the willing worker who finds himself unemployed, but by definition the best of those willing workers will be actively engaged looking for full time work and one hopes they find it - at which point they presumably won't be available to continue milking once their training is complete. Those who are after the money, rather than the work, are unlikely to make reliable milkers.

There are some, no doubt, who are not looking for full time work because of circumstances - perhaps those looking after children for part of the day, or with other small part time work - and they could potentially make great long term milkers - but while good for farmer & employee does such a set up not make a nonsense of the unemployment benefit regime? The dole was never intended to be an alternative form of employment for those who could or would get nothing else. If we want it to be that we should have an honest national discussion about it and call it what it is.

If a dairy farmer encourages his twenty something son or daughter to go on the dole and pays them 5K a year on top to milk the cows are we not actually dealing with a subsidy? Like all such schemes the devil is in the detail.

I share others concerns that we are degrading dairy farming at the same time as lauding it; and I worry that we are reducing the act of milking to a chore to be handed off or eliminated altogether. To me that doesn't chime with our self proclaimed image of a family scale farming industry where cows and the milk they produce come first - which is the only true competitive edge we have.

But having said that I don't see why a willing part timer with no dairy experience shouldn't pay the same, perhaps more, attention to the job than a farmer's son would. It's up the individual farmer. If you treat this scheme like a cheaper version of FRS then you are going to be dissapointed. On the other hand if you take your time and find someone for whom the scheme really works, willing to work and learn, and looking for a long term career in farming (either full or part time) then you might have the answer to your prayers.

bogman_bass

Bullocks wrote: »

Sam Kade wrote: »

Sad outlook but I don't know of any farmer that would even admit they were on farm assist.

I wouldn't be announcing it to the world either ,but what we are heading for now is 2nd and even 3rd generation of social welfare families that couldnt care about finding work and feel entitled to every scheme going whether they need it or not .

But they won't be going for the scheme so that's a total red herring

Bullocks

bogman_bass wrote: »

But they won't be going for the scheme so that's a total red herring

I dont think many will be going for the scheme at all , thats the point I was making .In saying that I will be happy if proven wrong

Who2

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Open ones mind, allow people be trained and perhaps learn how to be an employer.

I get the impression some of your digs were pointed directly at me. I've been employing ones for years . Not for farming but in construction. Good employees are hard found , I've some and hope to be able to keep them. I've had three lads through similar type schemes, come and go in the last three months. It was possible get goo dish lads a few years back, but it's not now. It's gone to the stage what's left through these schemes are just not interested in working. I've had two lads on the farmers dole approach me for work and while both were ideal type candidates, neither would go through the books and when they broke down their situation I couldn't blame them. Most of the others that have come and gone didn't want to be there in the first place. All worked grand for a couple of weeks and then would either lye up or just not bother their arse turning up. I recently received a cv from a job path candidate that on paper had a ream of experience , what he didn't realise was who I was and that I'd have went to school with him. He left school in 1997 and to this day has not worked a single job. How is the likes of this lad trainable?im by no means a hard employer to work for and give and take days with most which suits most . But the sheer reality of the situation is it is extremely unlikelythe people put on these courses will be of any benefit.

Sam Kade

bogman_bass wrote: »

Lads are making out that milking is rocket science and only those that have been around cows since they were in short trousers are fit to do it.

Sorry to burst your bubble lads but it's not.

Dairy farming is highly skilled because it has so many different disciplines but milking on its own with suitable training is no more difficult than any other job if the set up is right.

Look at the US and the amount of migrant workers milking thousands of cows.

Yes, you can't just roll up off the street and do it but you would want to be fairly useless not to be able to do it after 20 days training

Completely different situation, those workers make a living out of it milking very large herds 24 hours a day in shifts. Getting a lad off the dole to do a few milkings won't have the same interest.

boggerman1

The big boys will get lads to milk if they pay them a fair price for doing the job.not cases like 40€ to milk 220 cows.the big boys just want slave labour as usual.

rangler1

boggerman1 wrote: »

The big boys will get lads to milk if they pay them a fair price for doing the job.not cases like 40€ to milk 220 cows.the big boys just want slave labour as usual.

What loss is on him...isn't he getting the run of his jaws of calfcrunch........joking aside the sad thing is there is families out there that have to accept that (€40 not the calf crunch) to get enough to get by

Gawddawggonnit

An example of what needs must nowadays.
The Coop posted this in the dairy to aid the drivers to manoeuvre the lorry for milk collection.
I could easily do a 360 in front of the dairy with a 26 pallet trailer.

Who2

Who2 wrote: »

So is someone with two degrees going to go on a course for milking cows? I don't know what your degrees are in but maybe your selected degrees were the wrong choice to study if they left you unemployed and just because someone has a degree doesn't make them suitable for employment.

So straight to the ad hominem attacks because generalisation BS was called out.

The post said doleys could not be left alone with machinery, why not?

simx

have done a good bit of relief milking for lads and still do a small bit for a couple, some are dead on to work for but relief milking is differnt towards spending the day there working, have worked properly for 3 farmers, one only wanted me for a few weeks as he had an operation, was sound to work for but horrid mean, pay ya on time but the quantity was the problem, another paid okish but man would he get it out of ya, youd feel like a slave, watching ya the whole time, got sick of it one day after he ate me for being on the phone while spreading a load of slurry, now i was still doing the job, i wouldnt stand in the middle of the yard on the phone that would be different, herad rencently he does have it hard to keep lads any longer than two weeks, the last lad was the soundest lad i worked for, no problem with him at all, treat ya with respect, wouldnt ask ya to do anything he wouldnt do, could have the craic with him, only gave up the job as i got a different job that suited dairying better as yer man needed me most when i was calving also but i would go back to him in the morning

K.G.

I dont know anyone thats not working

Sweetemotion

From the attitudes of farmers on this thread. It's no wonder why labour is in decline.

I had to do work for a farmers son for a couple of days which left me without transport of getting home.

Had my work done by 5pm every evening but didn't get home till 11pm not because the father was busy. He was having dinner and drinking tea talking to other farmers.

Treat people like dirt what do you expect?

Sam Kade

Sweetemotion wrote: »

From the attitudes of farmers on this thread. It's no wonder why labour is in decline.

I had to do work for a farmers son for a couple of days which left me without transport of getting home.

Had my work done by 5pm every evening but didn't get home till 11pm not because the father was busy. He was having dinner and drinking tea talking to other farmers.

Treat people like dirt what do you expect?

Bloody farmers.

Sweetemotion

Sam Kade wrote: »

Bloody farmers.

Just my experience of working on a farm and I wasn't even a farm hand.

I wasn't the only one wanting to go home that evening.

greysides

Deleted User wrote: »

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alps

A guy can't come off the dole for under €12 per hour because of the loss of entitlements, This project will bridge that gap. That could bring out those genuinely interested in working.

Relief milkers in this part if the world can comfortably milk 2 herds per day at €50 per milking. Nice income to be derived for willing candidates..responsable operators will get plenty work

Bullocks

K.G. wrote: »

I dont know anyone thats not working

I don't know what a tracker mortgage is !

kowtow

alps wrote:

Relief milkers in this part if the world can comfortably milk 2 herds per day at €50 per milking. Nice income to be derived for willing candidates..responsable operators will get plenty work

Surprising the number of previously highly paid graduate husbands around here doing the majority of the child care although I'm not sure they would be receiving unemployment benefit?

The marketing of the scheme so far has been dreadful, particularly the over simplified farmers journal front page splash.

Sam Kade

alps wrote: »

Relief milkers in this part if the world can comfortably milk 2 herds per day at €50 per milking. Nice income to be derived for willing candidates..responsable operators will get plenty work

What part of the world would that be? Sounds great in theory but trying to get two herds reasonably close together that need a relief milker fulltime are few and far between. In reality you could be driving up to 50 miles radius to have enough milkings to get that income then you need to factor in fuel, wear and tear on your car and time spent travelling. I know plenty excellent operators that did the same and they didn't last long at it.

kevinm177

Worked in New Zealand nearly 15 yrs ago and loads of different schemes like this over there. I even worked with a guy who learned dairying in prison.
They have big prison dairy farms over there where people work while they serve their time and then can get employment once they get out.
It's mostly aimed a young guys from the city's who got caught up in gangs.

wally1990

Mooooo wrote: »

Most people don't get mileage for going to and from work?

Correct , home to work mileage is disallowed as a tax deduction under the flat rate scheme

Coolfresian

I think its doing the dairy industry a disservice by saying as some people are that bascially anyone can walk into a parlour and milk cows as its as simple as abc. That might be true to an extent but not everyone has the skill of being a good stockperson and that is a very important part of milking especially if that person is the only contact that anyone on the farm has with the cows during the day.
Problems such as sick cows down in milk, mastitis cases, cows acting off form, and cows showing early signs of tetany etc.
I know on my farm id often spot these in the parlour and its essential imo that someone milking can spot these. If u are doing your job properly milking cows is not just getting them in and out quick.
A good stockperson is worth their weight in gold and that cant be learned in a few days.

Bass Reeves

alps wrote: »

Relief milkers in this part if the world can comfortably milk 2 herds per day at €50 per milking. Nice income to be derived for willing candidates..responsable operators will get plenty work

So we get a relief milker that is milking two herds a day @50/milking 200/day sounds great. As you say a responsible operator, or in other words a good get up and go lad.

Now above looks great on paper 200/day 5 days /week it is 1K. But he is a sub contractor. His average day from stat to finish will be 14 hours+ with 3-4 hours ass scratching in between. Now it might suit a married man/women for a few years pick the kids up after school so minimal child care costs.

But if you look deeper it will be 10ish months work/year. Farmer will be more inclined to go once a day from early October wages will drop to 5-700/week. As a sole trader you have no entitlement to unemployment benefit for the winter and the 1K/week has to cover your holiday entitlement as well. Winter is the quitest period in the agrisector very little contracting or other work going on and days are too short anyway so you are unlikly to pick up other work.

This will give you a wage of around 38-43K/year but you will spend the whole summer working for this. You may see your kids for 1-2 hours/day and weekends if lucky. With a lifting economy such lads are in demand plenty of jobs paying 35K with a bit of overtime it will bring you to 40K. 20-22 day annual leave in the year and 9 bank holidays in the year or 6 weeks off. Working day in general will be 10 hours from leaving home to getting back home. Just in time in the summer to cut the lawn or go and watch the young lads match.

O and I forgot in the 9-5 job you will have a bit of human contact you will not be talking to a cows backside only during the working day at times that might be an advantage I know but on the laws of averages no.

Who2

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So we get a relief milker that is milking two herds a day @50/milking 200/day sounds great. As you say a responsible operator, or in other words a good get up and go lad.

Now above looks great on paper 200/day 5 days /week it is 1K. But he is a sub contractor. His average day from stat to finish will be 14 hours+ with 3-4 hours ass scratching in between. Now it might suit a married man/women for a few years pick the kids up after school so minimal child care costs.

But if you look deeper it will be 10ish months work/year. Farmer will be more inclined to go once a day from early October wages will drop to 5-700/week. As a sole trader you have no entitlement to unemployment benefit for the winter and the 1K/week has to cover your holiday entitlement as well. Winter is the quitest period in the agrisector very little contracting or other work going on and days are too short anyway so you are unlikly to pick up other work.

This will give you a wage of around 38-43K/year but you will spend the whole summer working for this. You may see your kids for 1-2 hours/day and weekends if lucky. With a lifting economy such lads are in demand plenty of jobs paying 35K with a bit of overtime it will bring you to 40K. 20-22 day annual leave in the year and 9 bank holidays in the year or 6 weeks off. Working day in general will be 10 hours from leaving home to getting back home. Just in time in the summer to cut the lawn or go and watch the young lads match.

O and I forgot in the 9-5 job you will have a bit of human contact you will not be talking to a cows backside only during the working day at times that might be an advantage I know but on the laws of averages no.

When everything is added in working as a subcontractor allowing a 10% non payment @ 200 per day and extra travel chances are the person would be lucky to pull 33k per year

Mooooo

Lads yer firing out figures there and they may well be accurate but there seems to be an assumption that there will be no give and take. Any farmer I know employing someone is very flexible in days off and often gives bonuses on various forms whether this a day off with pay or tank of oil or coal delivered to the house or whatever. Put the farmer and the potential employee together and if it works out good if it doesn't nobody is forcing anyone to stay.
All the assumptions and generistations are overcomplicating it All together. If it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't that's it, better than doing nothing anyway

Bullocks

Mooooo wrote: »

Lads yer firing out figures there and they may well be accurate but there seems to be an assumption that there will be no give and take. Any farmer I know employing someone is very flexible in days off and often gives bonuses on various forms whether this a day off with pay or tank of oil or coal delivered to the house or whatever. Put the farmer and the potential employee together and if it works out good if it doesn't nobody is forcing anyone to stay.
All the assumptions and generistations are overcomplicating it All together. If it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't that's it, better than doing nothing anyway

You're right , any move to get people off social welfare is a good move . Hopefully it will be built on aswell .
I think even the attitude we give our kids could change . Alot of kids grow up thinking life is lollipops and sunshine always , its no harm to realise that not everything comes easy and sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to get started in life whether you like the type of work or not .

Free-2-Flow

I have a full time job and I'd love to do this haha

Bass Reeves

Free-2-Flow wrote: »

I have a full time job and I'd love to do this haha

I wonder is this ''dark sarcasm in a bottle teacher leave these kids alone''

whelan2

Always found if someone was milking here and heading to milk somewhere after that my milking was a rush job and wasn't done right

patsy_mccabe

A brother of mine went to count cattle here at home one day. Came back and told the father there was 23 in the field. No way says the father, so he goes and checks himself. There was a stag in the field. He always told that story with a laugh. I suppose the point I'm making is, you have to have your heart in something. Otherwise a waste of time.