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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭él statutorio


    If you have 40 days annual leave to take, do your one month notice period, take 8 weeks holidays (40 days) and go ahead and start the new job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭touts


    Patww79 wrote: »
    I've had a few 'off the record' calls made about me and made to me in the past. Very rarely were any of the people that were called, including myself, ever in the position they were advertised as being. It's all a game.

    Risky strategy as that's grounds a for instant dismissal if discovered.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,504 ✭✭✭touts


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Companies aren't supposed to be taking 'off the record' appraisals into account either.

    Doesn't bother me now as I had a very legitimate one for my current position so all the other previous are meaningless by now anyway.

    Companies can take written or verbal references into account. No law against it. In fact in some industries e.g. childcare you are legally required to phone to confirm the details. Giving false references and contact details in that case is a criminal offence. In theory an individual could sue if a bad reference was given and they felt it was unfair and biased. But they would find it hard and expensive to win and it would be basically career ending as word gets around and no one would touch them again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    limnam wrote: »
    You can look for all you want, I can guanrtee you no employer I've ever worked for would give you what you're looking for. There's too much at risk for a lot of companies to do this.

    The benefit of making the call is that the person who it's about doesn't know it was made.

    The "risk" is not tangible, the phone call was never "made".

    You don't actually know if a call was made, do you? How can you "guarantee" it if your new and old employer don't want to admit to it?

    If you are in a position to hire someone and you want to check out a potential new employee, would you tell them you made that call?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭skallywag


    davo10 wrote: »
    As an employer I can tell you this, employers look for references. We are interested in performance, and personality, are you good at your job? are you a good employee?

    Written references have value, but the "off the record" phone call is invaluable, trust me, we all make those phone calls.

    Leaving on good terms in a small industry is an absolute must. If at interview, when I ask what your notice period is, the applicant says it's 3 months but I can leave when I want, I automatically assume they will do the same to me and the interview ends pretty quick.

    I could not agree more with the above, and I frankly fine it bizarre that some contributors to this thread are arguing that references do not matter. Perhaps so in whatever industry they happen to be in, but to me it's just completely alien, as it would be to any professional acquaintances which I have who also hire.

    I also favour the route of a five minute phone call rather than a written reference. We usually have interview candidates forwarded to us by recruiters, and I have made it clear that unless a candidate can provide a relatively recent reference who I may speak directly to then the process will not go any further. It does not necessarily need to be the most recent employer, I understand fully that things can end of bad terms from time to time.

    I've also often found myself on the other side of the stick and will give frank and open feedback over a call when asked. You would never put anything of the such in writing of course for obvious reasons. To be honest though the feedback I have given has been very positive in nearly every case. Having a named reference from a reputable source who you know will give you glowing appraisal is a huge plus for any interview candidate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    skallywag wrote:
    I also favour the route of a five minute phone call rather than a written reference. We usually have interview candidates forwarded to us by recruiters, and I have made it clear that unless a candidate can provide a relatively recent reference who I may speak directly to then the process will not go any further. It does not necessarily need to be the most recent employer, I understand fully that things can end of bad terms from time to time.

    Yes but in this case you are phoning someone hand picked by the interviewee. I have several people I would use as referees in a situation like this. They are all people who would have a good opinion of me (obviously), I'm not going to let you ring anyone I went head to head with for months. That might be someone from company X. If you rang company X though they would just tell you I worked there from [insert dates] and was employed as an [insert job].

    I know a guy who was fired from 3 jobs I know of and if you rang his referees you would just get through to one of his smoking buddies (who do genuinely work there) who would tell you what a great guy he was.

    So references are all a bit of a swizz these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Yes but in this case you are phoning someone hand picked by the interviewee. I have several people I would use as referees in a situation like this. They are all people who would have a good opinion of me (obviously), I'm not going to let you ring anyone I went head to head with for months. That might be someone from company X. If you rang company X though they would just tell you I worked there from [insert dates] and was employed as an [insert job].

    I know a guy who was fired from 3 jobs I know of and if you rang his referees you would just get through to one of his smoking buddies (who do genuinely work there) who would tell you what a great guy he was.

    So references are all a bit of a swizz these days.

    If ever there was a good reason for making that "off the record" phone call, the above is it, the call doesn't have to be made to the preferred referee, generally in smallish industries, each manager knows someone in the other company.

    I don't get the "swizz" bit, few employers will fill an important position without doing some research on applicants. Nothing beats a quiet word with someone you know who worked with the applicant, a candidate can look like a world beater on paper, and be a complete muppet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭skallywag


    It depends very much on who you are speaking to and where they are working, e.g. if I speak to an Engineering Manager at a reputable engineering firm then I would usually anticipate an honest feedback. I genuinely do not know anyone in such a position who would be willing to falsely sell a candidate, and I would certainly never do so myself, the damage to my own industry rep would just not be worth it. The first question I would always ask would be whether or not this person reported into you or not. Sure, there is the potential that you are going to be told complete lies, but as I mentioned I do not know anyone who would be willing to damage themselves like that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    skallywag wrote: »
    It depends very much on who you are speaking to and where they are working, e.g. if I speak to an Engineering Manager at a reputable engineering firm then I would usually anticipate an honest feedback. I genuinely do not know anyone in such a position who would be willing to falsely sell a candidate, and I would certainly never do so myself, the damage to my own industry rep would just not be worth it. The first question I would always ask would be whether or not this person reported into you or not. Sure, there is the potential that you are going to be told complete lies, but as I mentioned I do not know anyone who would be willing to damage themselves like that.


    I ask, and have been asked by other employers, "would you employ this person again?", if the answer is "no", then no more needs to be said. Nothing derogatory or libellous would be mentioned beyond that one syllable answer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭Diziet


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    This is incorrect - it would be illegal to withhold the holiday pay, it is wages owed after all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    davo10 wrote:
    I ask, and have been asked by other employers, "would you employ this person again?", if the answer is "no", then no more needs to be said. Nothing derogatory or libellous would be mentioned beyond that one syllable answer.


    A fair few former staff put me down as a reference over the years, in general when I've had calls it's been basic enough questions usually ending in the would you employ this person again.

    On a side note though I wish people would tell you when they put you down as a reference, 3 missed calls a few weeks back from an unknown number, I didn't answer as I was on holidays, employer obviously told my old colleague they couldn't verify reference.
    He rings me then in a huff.. crazy stuff like if you had actually warned me I'd have taken the bloody call.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭I love Sean nos


    Why does the employer want to hold on to an employee who plainly no longer wants to be there? Sure, you have an extra person working on a project, but they won't be anywhere near full productivity, yet costing the full amount and their output would have to be checked.

    I would never hold on to someone in this way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    limnam wrote: »
    In my current job I wasn't asked for any references at all, everyone knows it's mostly BS.

    I think your approach is rather careless, the fact that the process is BS as you say means that personal contacts and the quiet word is all the more important.

    Just because you were not asked for references does not mean they did not check up on you.... You'd be amazed how much you can gleam from a chatty receptionist or secretary!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,171 ✭✭✭limnam


    davo10 wrote: »
    The benefit of making the call is that the person who it's about doesn't know it was made.

    Not sure what you're talking about.

    most large corps will only take calls through a HR department, no one in that HR department in a "real" HR company will take an off the record call.
    davo10 wrote: »
    The "risk" is not tangible, the phone call was never "made".

    huh
    davo10 wrote: »
    You don't actually know if a call was made, do you? How can you "guarantee" it if your new and old employer don't want to admit to it?

    If you are in a position to hire someone and you want to check out a potential new employee, would you tell them you made that call?

    I'm only going to provide numbers for speicific people I pretty much know all ready what they're going to tell you.

    Outside of that you'll get a brick wall of a HR department.

    You sound like your're working in a spar


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,171 ✭✭✭limnam


    skallywag wrote: »

    I also favour the route of a five minute phone call rather than a written reference. We usually have interview candidates forwarded to us by recruiters, and I have made it clear that unless a candidate can provide a relatively recent reference who I may speak directly to then the process will not go any further. It does not necessarily need to be the most recent employer, I understand fully that things can end of bad terms from time to time.

    How do you know you're not talking to their brother?
    skallywag wrote: »
    I've also often found myself on the other side of the stick and will give frank and open feedback over a call when asked. You would never put anything of the such in writing of course for obvious reasons. To be honest though the feedback I have given has been very positive in nearly every case. Having a named reference from a reputable source who you know will give you glowing appraisal is a huge plus for any interview candidate.

    people don't tend to give contact numbers of someone who's going to give them a bad reference.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,171 ✭✭✭limnam


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    I think your approach is rather careless, the fact that the process is BS as you say means that personal contacts and the quiet word is all the more important.

    Just because you were not asked for references does not mean they did not check up on you.... You'd be amazed how much you can gleam from a chatty receptionist or secretary!

    It's not "my appraoch". I'm just stating it is what it is.

    The point of not been asked for one was not to point out how "careless" they're it's what's becoming important. Companies I work for don't go around calling "chatty" receptionist's I don't know where you're working but it sounds horrific.

    People tend to provide references of people who will speak well of them. They're pointless.

    As are written.

    If companies invested more time hiring managers who were capable of interviewing correctly they wouldn't need to worry about what Mary the receptionist had to say in their "off" the record chin wags.

    social engineering as a hiring strategy. wtf.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭skallywag


    limnam wrote: »
    If companies invested more time hiring managers who were capable of interviewing correctly they wouldn't need to worry about what Mary the receptionist had to say in their "off" the record chin wags.

    It's simply not possible to bring absolutely everything out during the interview stage, regardless of how well you interview.

    This is particularly the case with prospective employees who have the tendency to be awkward, non-flexible and in general just difficult to work with. In the vast majority of cases such employees know very well that this is the case and can actively mask such traits very well at interview.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,303 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    skallywag wrote: »
    In the vast majority of cases such employees know very well that this is the case and can actively mask such traits very well at interview.

    And the odd one does not know how... I once interviewed a German guy who started a sentence with: "Let me explain to you the kind of idiots I have to work with..." All ways happy to supply more rope, I asked him what strategy he used to get along with these people in order to get his work done and the response was: "It is impossible to deal with idiots, that is why I'm leaving!"


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭delboythedub


    Tell to go and Sue you. Came a cross this prob. with a very large multi Nat. Company only giving (years) contracts to young employees who got full time jobs elsewere and the best of luck to them. What can they Sue you for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Tell to go and Sue you. Came a cross this prob. with a very large multi Nat. Company only giving (years) contracts to young employees who got full time jobs elsewere and the best of luck to them. What can they Sue you for.

    I think you have missed out, or don't understand most of the posts on this threads. No company is going to take legal action to enforce a notice period, but if you leave with a bad reference, despite what linman posted, this can effect future prospects if a future employer makes a call to find out what type of employee you are. In an industry where there may be many applicants for a role, that can make a huge difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Just a quick follow up on this. After much discussion with my employer, a three month notice period was agreed upon; the last two months of which would be annual leave. I am nearing my final day in the office and I received a request to attend a meeting with my line manager, his manager and the head of the department, last Friday. At that meeting, I was told that the organisation is under too much pressure at this moment in time to allow key members to take annual leave and the head of the department said that she was going cancel my first month's leave. I replied by saying that cancelling my annual leave, which was approved weeks ago, at this stage was not acceptable; given that it is commencing in a matter of days and I also asked why another member of my team was allowed to go on two weeks annual leave, returning this week and why two other members of the team were allowed to take leave over the past few weeks. The head of the department said that they were not obliged to respond to those questions. Is it time to get HR or even an external body involved in this? Personally, I just want to stick to my guns and the original agreement that we reached above and finish up this week. They did close by asking me if I would consider coming back after my third month's leave, which has not been cancelled leave at this stage, which I just balked at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    Just a quick follow up on this. After much discussion with my employer, a three month notice period was agreed upon; the last two months of which would be annual leave. I am nearing my final day in the office and I received a request to attend a meeting with my line manager, his manager and the head of the department, last Friday. At that meeting, I was told that the organisation is under too much pressure at this moment in time to allow key members to take annual leave and the head of the department said that she was going cancel my first month's leave. I replied by saying that cancelling my annual leave, which was approved weeks ago, at this stage was not acceptable; given that it is commencing in a matter of days and I also asked why another member of my team was allowed to go on two weeks annual leave, returning this week and why two other members of the team were allowed to take leave over the past few weeks. The head of the department said that they were not obliged to respond to those questions. Is it time to get HR or even an external body involved in this? Personally, I just want to stick to my guns and the original agreement that we reached above and finish up this week. They did close by asking me if I would consider coming back after my third month's leave, which has not been cancelled leave at this stage, which I just balked at.

    they are taking the mick, just leave in the few days.

    take your holidays, there is literally nothing they can do to stop you.
    if they do not issue pay, go with you previous agreement to a solicitor, a letter from them will stop all this nonsense dead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    jcd5971 wrote: »
    they are taking the mick, just leave in the few days.

    take your holidays, there is literally nothing they can do to stop you.
    if they do not issue pay, go with you previous agreement to a solicitor, a letter from them will stop all this nonsense dead.

    This right here,

    Unbelievably, do you have the agreement in writing/emails. If you have emails supporting the agreement forward them on to your personal gmail account (assuming if you haven't done already)

    Get out, get out, get out. Even on health grounds, I can't imagine what this is doing to your mental health


  • Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭lapua20grain


    If you have the new job and they have their reference from this current position I would not hesitate to move straight away. In my company at my work level they usually either place you on garden leave or pay your notice, ultimately you do not want to be ill due to the stress of this situation so either leave or go on sick leave for the duration of your notice.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,257 ✭✭✭SoupyNorman


    I was in a job with a 2 month notice period, I handed in my notice…politely asked if one month was ok. Similar to OP others I knew had left after one month however I was told no so I said nothing got my references out of them.

    I left after one month, the Monday I started my new job my manager from my old job called me wondering where I was. I said I started my new job today, she was a bit speechless :)

    They could have legally pursued me but sure it’s not worth their while and I gambled that would be the outcome.


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