Location of public charge points

Balmed Out

As someone with two children I find a lot of the public points to be very annoyingly located. Normally a petrol station or a car park on the arse end of a town. I realise beggars can't be choosers but what's the thought process into their placement?

My other bug is should towns with a charge point have two seperate ones? On longer journeys you have to stop more often to take into account long queues or out of order charge points which is a real pain with small kids.

unkel

Back in the day when most chargers were installed, EVs were considered to be city cars. That charged slowly. And needed to be parked up all day or all night to charge. Hence almost all of the chargers in Ireland being slow chargers in towns / cities

Unfortunately out of the 1200 chargers, there are only about 70 fast chargers. Yes, not much more than 5% of chargers are useful fast chargers. And most of them are not in convenient intercity locations, but in local shopping malls, etc.

And the ESB have no funding for installing any more, so we are at a bit of a dead end at the moment. With some of the busier fast chargers now regularly having queues of EVs waiting

jamesthepeach

I pulled up to a charger in ashbkurne the other day with 4, I kid you not, cars waiting to charge before me. This is getting beyond a joke now.

cros13

jamesthepeach wrote: »

I pulled up to a charger in ashbkurne the other day with 4, I kid you not, cars waiting to charge before me. This is getting beyond a joke now.

Didn't ESB say that the network was "sufficient" for 20,000 cars?

My worst was a queue 7 cars ahead of me, with no other nearby CCS rapid.

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Didn't ESB say that the network was "sufficient" for 20,000 cars?

My worst was a queue 7 cars ahead of me, with no other nearby CCS rapid.

They did say that alright based on a very crude X cars per charger metric which of course is nonsense when some chargers are under utilised and some are over utilised.

It requires better planning and of course money!

jamesthepeach

cros13 wrote: »

Didn't ESB say that the network was "sufficient" for 20,000 cars?

My worst was a queue 7 cars ahead of me, with no other nearby CCS rapid.

My god.
I think I would just cry if I saw that.
I've seen 3 a good few times, 2 more often than not nowadays.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

My worst was a queue 7 cars ahead of me, with no other nearby CCS rapid.

Which one? That's horrific BTW

In UK, which has more electric cars than us per capita, I had to wait once in 2 weeks for 30 minutes before I could charge. On both legs to and from the harbour in Ireland I had to wait both ways.

They key is to charge for charging at higher rate (like at twice or more) than it would cost to charge at home.

jamesthepeach

samih wrote: »

In UK, which has more electric cars than us per capita, I had to wait once in 2 weeks for 30 minutes before I could charge. On both legs to and from the harbour in Ireland I had to wait both ways.

They key is to charge for charging at higher rate (like at twice or more) than it would cost to charge at home.

Never fear on that.
But it will be more like 10 times the price at home when it does come in. Last time they tried to bring in a subscription charge whether you used it or not in any month you would have had to pay I think it was €17 a month to have access and then pay for the electricity on top at an extoryionate rate.

I'd like to see fcps required at every garage. And two in each motorway service station.

Sabre Man

samih wrote: »

In UK, which has more electric cars than us per capita, I had to wait once in 2 weeks for 30 minutes before I could charge. On both legs to and from the harbour in Ireland I had to wait both ways.

They key is to charge for charging at higher rate (like at twice or more) than it would cost to charge at home.

That still wouldn't solve the issues mentioned above with 3+ cars waiting to charge. I doubt they were all waiting in such long queues just to save a few euros.

ELM327

I've been the second car in a 4 car queue, and the third car in the queue when I was on "---" before aswell. Generally i find outside of the GDA that the chargers are always free, but any time I'm in the GDA we end up queuing at peak time.

I ask myself a question, would I be happy to pay €3-€5 for a fast charge if they would install more chargers (2 per site) and in better locations? With 2 kids in the back sitting for 30 minutes to an hour in a queue you bet your bottom dollar I would!

No matter what happens with the network I hope they remove Blanchardstown, Lucan and Naas and put them in better locations.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

No matter what happens with the network I hope they remove Blanchardstown, Lucan and Naas and put them in better locations.

I know I have to keep pointing this out, but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Blanch, Lucan and Naas are the perfect locations for 50kW FCPs.
When paid charging is introduced busy chargers like these used by suburbanites will fund the lesser used, but more essential interurban network.

oppenheimer1

Sabre Man wrote: »

That still wouldn't solve the issues mentioned above with 3+ cars waiting to charge. I doubt they were all waiting in such long queues just to save a few euros.

You'd be surprised. There are people on this forum that never charge at home and only use the public network. One might say they are freeloaders abusing the system, but I'm nicer than that

unkel

liamog wrote: »

I know I have to keep pointing this out, but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Blanch, Lucan and Naas are the perfect locations for 50kW FCPs.
When paid charging is introduced busy chargers like these used by suburbanites will fund the lesser used, but more essential interurban network.

Aye, the last thing we need to do is start removing fast chargers :eek:

Install a quadruple charger at every 40km on all national roads and motorways and we're good for several years to come. And paid for charging of course.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

I know I have to keep pointing this out, but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in.

Blanch, Lucan and Naas are the perfect locations for 50kW FCPs.
When paid charging is introduced busy chargers like these used by suburbanites will fund the lesser used, but more essential interurban network.

unkel wrote: »

Aye, the last thing we need to do is start removing fast chargers :eek:

Install a quadruple charger at every 40km on all national roads and motorways and we're good for several years to come. And paid for charging of course.

They are not the perfect location, and would be better served with a row of 22kW AC chargers.

I'm not saying to get rid of the chargers, I'm saying to move them elsewhere!

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

They are not the perfect location, and would be better served with a row of 22kW AC chargers.

They're useless. Go shopping for half an hour and you gain 3.6kWh in an Ioniq and only 1.8kWh in a standard Leaf. Not worth the effort of getting your own cable out, getting it dirty and having to stow it all away again. For like €0.20 in electricity...

Unless you come from down the country to spend the guts of a day in the big shmoke at one of these fancy shopping malls that is the Supervalue shopping centre in Lucan

oppenheimer1

It would be a good idea to remove all SCP's from the urban cores in order to encourage fewer people to drive into city centres.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

They're useless. Go shopping for half an hour and you gain 3.6kWh in an Ioniq and only 1.8kWh in a standard Leaf

Unless you come from down the country to spend the guts of a day at one of these fancy shopping malls that is the Supervalue shopping centre in Lucan

Are you the guy that doesnt like AC charging?

I'm from down the sticks and my leaf charges at 6kW. I would be more likely to spend 2 hours in Blanchardstown than 30 minutes. If we go to Blanchardstown (or dundrum) it's generally to visit specific shops that we don't have local, and to go for a starbucks - which again we dont have local. Leave home with 80%, arrive with <20, charge to 80% again and drive home. No charging time at all (other than when the car is parked anyway).

I'd say - and this would be an interesting survey to do - if you surveyed the majority of shoppers in Blanchardstown, Dundrum, Naas for their stay duration, it would be closer to 2 hours than 30 minutes. Except for the locals, who should not be using the FCP anyway.

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It would be a good idea to remove all SCP's from the urban cores in order to encourage fewer people to drive into city centres.

If you support that, do you also support removing all petrol stations from the city centre?

oppenheimer1

ELM327 wrote: »

If you support that, do you also support removing all petrol stations from the city centre?

I'd go further. I support the pedestrianisation of the urban cores. We need fewer cars of all types in cities.

It would make them better places to live.

ei9go

unkel wrote: »

They're useless. Go shopping for half an hour and you gain 3.6kWh in an Ioniq and only 1.8kWh in a standard Leaf. Not worth the effort of getting your own cable out, getting it dirty and having to stow it all away again. For like €0.20 in electricity...

Unless you come from down the country to spend the guts of a day in the big shmoke at one of these fancy shopping malls that is the Supervalue shopping centre in Lucan

They are brilliant with the Zoe.
It's just that other cars can't take advantage of them.
You can go nearly anywhere in the Zoe and don't care if the FCP is busy or broken.

beauf

have a mobile service.

http://www.jtmpower.ie/index.php?target=news

ELM327

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'd go further. I support the pedestrianisation of the urban cores. We need fewer cars of all types in cities.

It would make them better places to live.

I must be wrong because I am agreeing with you!
We should have a lot more pedestrianised areas within the cities - particularly dublin.
The areas should be blocked off to traffic and have multiple high rise carparks on the edge of the pedestrian zone. Then have multiple chargers in the carparks and boom - there you go, emissions reduced.

Balmed Out

unkel wrote: »

They're useless. Go shopping for half an hour and you gain 3.6kWh in an Ioniq and only 1.8kWh in a standard Leaf. Not worth the effort of getting your own cable out, getting it dirty and having to stow it all away again. For like €0.20 in electricity...

Unless you come from down the country to spend the guts of a day in the big shmoke at one of these fancy shopping malls that is the Supervalue shopping centre in Lucan

When do you use a 22kw charger? Personally I'm never going to use one unless I am going shopping or for a meal or something and I will be an hour or more and in my view I think shopping centres / town centres etc are the ideal location. Normally its to break a long journey up for the kids and we go eat, use a play ground and come back with enough charge to go home or to final destination. Ideally they would have a max time limit as from what I can see a lot of people use them simply to save on parking charges in Cork and block their use for others.
Perhaps ideally commuter stations would have rows of them but thats not about to happen.

Ideally it'd be fcp's all round but give me a slow charge in a location with some sort of entertainment nearby then a slow in an isolated car park with nothing nearby but a glass bank any day.
Driving to kerry over the weekend I went via slow charge points rather then use the Killarney fcp as theres nothing there to do dragging toddlersaround and i'd guess a good chance of a queue on a bank holiday weekend.

ELM327

Balmed Out wrote: »

When do you use a 22kw charger? Personally I'm never going to use one unless I am going shopping or for a meal or something and I will be an hour or more and in my view I think shopping centres / town centres etc are the ideal location. Normally its to break a long journey up for the kids and we go eat, use a play ground and come back with enough charge to go home or to final destination. Ideally they would have a max time limit as from what I can see a lot of people use them simply to save on parking charges in Cork and block their use for others.
Perhaps ideally commuter stations would have rows of them but thats not about to happen.

Ideally it'd be fcp's all round but give me a slow charge in a location with some sort of entertainment nearby then a slow in an isolated car park with nothing nearby but a glass bank any day.
Driving to kerry over the weekend I went via slow charge points rather then use the Killarney fcp as theres nothing there to do dragging toddlersaround and i'd guess a good chance of a queue on a bank holiday weekend.

I use a 22kW charger when I park up when I'm going for an evening walk after work. Approx 30 minutes -1 hour-2 hours depending on weather. If it's a good day and I get a 2 hour walk in, it's >50% added to the battery when I would be otherwise parked anyway and having to pay for the parking.

cros13

unkel wrote: »

Which one? That's horrific BTW

Blanch last year, before Lucan, Donabate and Clonshaugh were CCS options. And CCS at the airport was down for almost 4 months.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

if you surveyed the majority of shoppers in Blanchardstown, Dundrum, Naas for their stay duration, it would be closer to 2 hours than 30 minutes. Except for the locals, who should not be using the FCP anyway.

My local FCP is Lucan. If you ask the majority of shoppers how long they would park there, I'd say it would be 30-60 minutes. Completely useless to hook up on a slow charger unless you needed it to get home.

Balmed Out wrote: »

When do you use a 22kw charger? Personally I'm never going to use one

Never really. The one time when I was in Cobh as I was the tourist and we were going to stay there for several hours anyway. But I would just as easily not have charged there but just charged in the rented holiday home on the granny cable. Or at a fast charger for 10 minutes.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

My local FCP is Lucan. If you ask the majority of shoppers how long they would park there, I'd say it would be 30-60 minutes. Completely useless to hook up on a slow charger unless you needed it to get home.

But you are not the target market for an FCP in Lucan, as you live there.
An FCP should be used enroute on a long trip, not as your daily charge!

60 minutes at a slow charger would give me ~30%.

cruizer101

ELM327 wrote: »

If you support that, do you also support removing all petrol stations from the city centre?

There is very few petrol stations in Dublin city centre anyway. There is one along the quays and apart from that I think you are looking at outside of the north and south circular roads

ELM327

cruizer101 wrote: »

There is very few petrol stations in Dublin city centre anyway. There is one along the quays and apart from that I think you are looking at outside of the north and south circular roads

The reason I asked the question was to see if it was an anti-EV or anti-motorist bias.

As mentioned if it's all forms of private ttransport then I support it!

liamog

cruizer101 wrote: »

There is very few petrol stations in Dublin city centre anyway. There is one along the quays and apart from that I think you are looking at outside of the north and south circular roads

Not many in the city centre, but there are loads in the Dublin Metropolitan Area.
Lots of these areas (especially the newer ones) are townhouses/apartments, it's a much more sustainable use of land compared to three bed semi d's with a front and rear garden.

We can either retrofit massive numbers of on-street chargers or install FCPs at places that people spend 30/45 mins, places like Lucan Shopping Centre, or Blanchardstown.
A car park with multiple 50kW chargers and local services will be a profitable enterprise, and much less risk than an SCP outside every house.

There is a place for home charging, and a place for local charging centres. To me the key difference is that charging in public spreads infrastructure costs across the nation and benefits the whole EV community. Charging at ELM327's house only benefits the electricity company and ELM327.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

If you support that, do you also support removing all petrol stations from the city centre?

I'd go further. I support the pedestrianisation of the urban cores. We need fewer cars of all types in cities.

It would make them better places to live.

Oh no, I agree with something oppenheimer says.

Removing traffic from cities is one of the best ways to improve the quality of life for everybody.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Not many in the city centre, but there are loads in the Dublin Metropolitan Area.
Lots of these areas (especially the newer ones) are townhouses/apartments, it's a much more sustainable use of land compared to three bed semi d's with a front and rear garden.

We can either retrofit massive numbers of on-street chargers or install FCPs at places that people spend 30/45 mins, places like Lucan Shopping Centre, or Blanchardstown.
A car park with multiple 50kW chargers and local services will be a profitable enterprise, and much less risk than an SCP outside every house.

There is a place for home charging, and a place for local charging centres. To me the key difference is that charging in public spreads infrastructure costs across the nation and benefits the whole EV community. Charging at ELM327's house only benefits the electricity company and ELM327.

Charging at everyone's house benefits everyone though.
If you can take on 60kWh at night (10 hours @ 7kW AC) then you will rarely need to use a public charger at all.
Current cost of that 60kWh is approximately €4.20 on night rate and around €8-€8.50 on day rate, depending on your supplier. If you can travel 300km for that 60kWh, conservatively, it's still cheaper to charge at home than to spend 30 minutes at a DC quickcharger en route instead - even if you factor your time at minimum wage!

Public charging (apart from very high speed DC on motorways) will not be necessary in 10 years.

jamesthepeach

In 10 years the meters will be in the cars and there will be a special tax on car electricity to make it as expensive as petrol. So enjoy it while it lasts.

ELM327

Of course once the masses move to EV then it will be somehow taxed the same as petrol, be it a tax on FCP delivered electricity, increased motor tax, or per KM charges.

However since I doubt that will happen in the short or even medium term (I'd suggest at least 15 years before the majority move) then it is not necessarily useful to speculate on future taxation methods.

My point above (re fast DC charging and charging at home on AC) was related to the need for public chargepoints, and how I think they will be less needed in the future. They may become like free wifi in a restaurant. Everyone has 3/4G phones but it's nice to have wifi provided free during your meal. Perhaps this will be the role of AC charging in the future. And its a shame in a way because we do have a great network of 22kW AC chargers which are largely wasted due to low takeoff of Zoe or other 22kW AC capable cars.

macnab

jamesthepeach wrote: »

In 10 years the meters will be in the cars and there will be a special tax on car electricity to make it as expensive as petrol. So enjoy it while it lasts.

That would result in a large uptake of domestic solar which would reduce electricity bills eventually. Which would harm electricity producers income. So I dont see meters being put on electric cars any time soon.
Unless they are smart meters, then EV owners whose cars are plugged into the grid would probably get rewarded for supply back into the grid at peak times.

liamog

The future isn't on street AC 7kW Charging.
Public Charging is needed for people without off-street parking and for out-of town visitors.

The choice for these suburban areas is 21 7kW AC points where 21 people park their car for 8h33 each, or 1 150kW DC point where each individual charges for 24 minutes, giving us 8h24 to charge all 21 cars.
The time and energy requirements are near enough the same, however the land usage is much efficient in a DC charging situation.

We could use the saved space for more bike lanes

jamesthepeach

macnab wrote: »

That would result in a large uptake of domestic solar which would reduce electricity bills eventually. Which would harm electricity producers income. So I dont see meters being put on electric cars any time soon.
Unless they are smart meters, then EV owners whose cars are plugged into the grid would probably get rewarded for supply back into the grid at peak times.

Meters will be in the car. Youll pay for the kwh you drive, regardless of where you get them. That's why the Esb want meters in the cars.
But sure by that time they'll have better ways of extracting money from you oer I'm anyway I suppose.

Marcusm

liamog wrote: »

The choice for these suburban areas is 21 7kW AC points where 21 people park their car for 8h33 each, or 1 150kW DC point where each individual charges for 24 minutes, giving us 8h24 to charge all 21 cars.
The time and energy requirements are near enough the same, however the land usage is much efficient in a DC charging situation.

Do you expect people to get up at 2:30am to take their slot between 2:34 and 2:58? In a residential suburban environment, there will need to be distributed charging. Such as charging posts in apartment/communal parking slots with the actual electricity usage optimised smartly, i.e. if 24 cars are there for 8 hours, the charging posts need to be on an integrated system to distribute the electricity on an efficient basis.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

The future isn't on street AC 7kW Charging.
Public Charging is needed for people without off-street parking.

The choice for these suburban areas is 21 7kW AC points where 21 people park their car for 8h33 each, or 1 150kW DC point where each individual charges for 24 minutes, giving us 8h24 to charge all 21 cars.
The time and energy requirements are near enough the same, however the land usage is much efficient in a DC charging situation.

We could use the saved space for more bike lanes

Tell that to the person who needs to charge 17th in the queue and has to wake up at 4am to move the car in to the dc spot and then move it out a few minutes later.
AC overnight charging is much better. Park up, it takes 30 seconds to plug in, then 30 seconds in the morning.

High speed DC is for enroute charging as it is less efficient, much more expensive to install and supply, and increases battery degradation due to temperature. If repeated 50kW DC charges increase battery temp you can only imagine what 150kW would do.

ELM327

Marcusm wrote: »

Do you expect people to get up at 2:30am to take their slot between 2:34 and 2:58? In a residential suburban environment, there will need to be distributed charging. Such as charging posts in apartment/communal parking slots with the actual electricity usage optimised smartly, i.e. if 24 cars are there for 8 hours, the charging posts need to be on an integrated system to distribute the electricity on an efficient basis.

Yes that was my point aswell (your post arrived after I started typing but before my post published)

A ludicrous suggestion if ever there was one. Imagine having to wake up just to charge your car???!! That's not progress. At the moment the car takes me 30 seconds to plug in at home or at work, and 30 seconds to unplug. I would not wake up during the night just to move my car!

KCross

jamesthepeach wrote: »

In 10 years the meters will be in the cars and there will be a special tax on car electricity to make it as expensive as petrol. So enjoy it while it lasts.

For it to be in the cars the manufacturers would have to agree a standard on how to report the data back to the electricity providers.... at the moment they can't agree on a charging cable standard so I can't see them agreeing on a universal smart meter!

jamesthepeach wrote: »

In 10 years the meters will be in the cars and there will be a special tax on car electricity to make it as expensive as petrol. So enjoy it while it lasts.

It will take a lot longer than 10yrs for mass EV adoption or any major taxes to be levied on EV. If we were to get 30% of new car sales to be EV that would be, what, 35k EV's per year? We have 2 million cars.

Considering we are currently at 0.1% EV penetration after 6yrs of EV's we won't be even at 10% in 10yrs time, imo. Ireland isn't Norway where they have thrown money at it. Ireland will spend nothing and hope for the best.

jamesthepeach wrote: »

In 10 years the meters will be in the cars and there will be a special tax on car electricity to make it as expensive as petrol. So enjoy it while it lasts.

At some point for sure. More likely to be increased motor tax, road pricing etc than a meter in the car. Maybe a separate meter in the house, since ESB have already floated that idea. Easy to get around that though.

jamesthepeach wrote: »

In 10 years the meters will be in the cars and there will be a special tax on car electricity to make it as expensive as petrol. So enjoy it while it lasts.

Absolutely. By the time the govt have figured out how to tax it I will have saved the price of a whole new car... maybe 2!

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes that was my point aswell (your post arrived after I started typing but before my post published)

A ludicrous suggestion if ever there was one. Imagine having to wake up just to charge your car???!! That's not progress. At the moment the car takes me 30 seconds to plug in at home or at work, and 30 seconds to unplug. I would not wake up during the night just to move my car!

At any point during the day you roll up to a charging centre where there are multiple DC Points and plug in for 25 mins. The charging centre is likely to be located near a local amenity such as SuperValue in Lucan, or a McDonalds, Starbucks etc...

We've worked out before that an 50kW FCP only needs to serve 192kW per day to pay for it's infrastructure cost at a fair charging fee working on assumption of 8 24kW charging events. The 150kW DC Charger is likely to have a higher initial cost, it's probably safe to assume the same 8 charging events are needed as break even.

You'd be looking at around 3.5 hours of charging a day for the charger to be worth installing. So no, we wouldn't need to get people out of bed to charge at 3am.

As to the heat generation, Charging a 60kW car at 150kW is the same charge rate (2.5C) as charging a 28kW at 70kW (Ioniq). So technically it's not really a challenge at all.

60kW cars with 15kW/100km efficiency have a 400km range. Assuming you only charge 51kW per week because nobody will charge to 100% and drive to 0%. You get 340km of range a week, this is 17,660km per year. Above the Irish average of 16,000km a year, so it's likely the majority of private car drivers would need 1 charge per week.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

At any point during the day you roll up to a charging centre where there are multiple DC Points and plug in for 25 mins. The charging centre is likely to be located near a local amenity such as SuperValue in Lucan, or a McDonalds, Starbucks etc...

We've worked out before that an 50kW FCP only needs to serve 192kW per day to pay for it's infrastructure cost at a fair charging fee working on assumption of 8 24kW charging events. The 150kW DC Charger is likely to have a higher initial cost, it's probably safe to assume the same 8 charging events are needed as break even.

You'd be looking at around 3.5 hours of charging a day for the charger to be worth installing. So no, we wouldn't need to get people out of bed to charge at 3am.

As to the heat generation, Charging a 60kW car at 150kW is the same charge rate (2.5C) as charging a 28kW at 70kW (Ioniq). So technically it's not really a challenge at all.

60kW cars with 15kW/100km efficiency have a 400km range. Assuming you only charge 51kW per week because nobody will charge to 100% and drive to 0%. You get 340km of range a week, this is 17,660km per year. Above the Irish average of 16,000km a year, so it's likely the majority of private car drivers would need 1 charge per week.

So if you need multiple FCP per location, each delivering 150kW. that's a lot higher install cost and power demand than AC chargers.

For your calculation you also assume no queueing time, which will not happen.

Again, it's much easier to plug in at night, everynight, and receive the 60kWh as I posted above, than waiting 30 minutes for the car at the FCP. I don't do it now, even though it's free, as the cost of waiting 30 minutes is more than the cost of paying €2 for the electricity.

And, FWIW, 340 km would do my commute only 3 days of the week. And that's assuming 100%-0% discharge, and no additional driving. So the AC model suits me better for that aswell.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

So if you need multiple FCP per location, each delivering 150kW. that's a lot higher install cost and power demand than AC chargers.

For your calculation you also assume no queueing time, which will not happen.

Again, it's much easier to plug in at night, everynight, and receive the 60kWh as I posted above, than waiting 30 minutes for the car at the FCP. I don't do it now, even though it's free, as the cost of waiting 30 minutes is more than the cost of paying €2 for the electricity.

And, FWIW, 340 km would do my commute only 3 days of the week. And that's assuming 100%-0% discharge, and no additional driving. So the AC model suits me better for that aswell.

I'm not planning on taking your AC charger away, but at the same time I don't want to see suburban streets with 100s of trip hazards and ugly street furniture installed.

This is the point I've been trying to make, not everyone is going to be in a place to charge overnight, and with the range and charging speed, I don't think it will be desirable or needed for the average Irish driver.

If a breakeven charger is occupied for 16% of day, I don't really believe queuing is going to be that much of a problem. It's also easily solved by multi headed chargers, the car queues while you go about your business.

Longer range EVs are a different beast, charging can and will change due to their new capabilities.

ELM327

I'm not asking for every street to have AC chargers.
But a situation like they have in Norway. A large multi storey carpark with over 100 AC chargers. That should be the future.
High rise carkparks with lots of AC for overnight parking. But on street parking is not taken over with cables.

Why not have apartment blocks with a plug at each parking spot? They do it in alaska now for grid block heaters.

Who decides breakeven, when we don't know the cost of the electricity, or the cost to the end user?

grogi

liamog wrote: »

I'm not planning on taking your AC charger away, but at the same time I don't want to see suburban streets with 100s of trip hazards and ugly street furniture installed.

This is the point I've been trying to make, not everyone is going to be in a place to charge overnight, and with the range and charging speed, I don't think it will be desirable or needed for the average Irish driver.

You are forgetting about autonomous cars. The car might be charging at a remote location and be summoned when needed. That might not even be your car, just a car-pooling Co-op resource. Urban environment is not a place to own a car...

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not asking for every street to have AC chargers.
But a situation like they have in Norway. A large multi storey carpark with over 100 AC chargers. That should be the future.
High rise carkparks with lots of AC for overnight parking. But on street parking is not taken over with cables.

Why not have apartment blocks with a plug at each parking spot? They do it in alaska now for grid block heaters.

Who decides breakeven, when we don't know the cost of the electricity, or the cost to the end user?

Absolutely. I think that the building regulations should be updated ASAP to require power outlets installed at newly created parking places. Or just wiring for 32A charging...

liamog

Why would I drive to a multi story car park and park my car for 8.5 hours, when I could instead plug in whilst doing my shopping at the local supermarket?

As to the numbers, we can pull it all together.

RCN Report suggested a 50kW FCP cost €80,000 to install and operate. ESB claimed €50,000 for installation at a recent Dail committee. Chargers are infrastructure so can be expected to pay for themselves over an extended period of time (~approx. 8 years according to RCN report), at €80,000 that means a income of €27.39 is required per day to offset installation and operation without energy costs.

The SEAI are required to publish a report on Business Electricity Prices per kWh as part of the Price Directive so we can get a view on business wholesale rates.
report

A charger operator is going to be a large consumer of electricity, last time I calculated they would be in band IE (20-70 GWh). From the report we see that wholesale rates with all taxes would be 9.48c/kWh.

If an average charge on a 50kW FCP is 24kWh, the energy cost to the operator is €2.28. The RCN report suggested a 2.5x fee structure as sustainable, which gives a total customer charge of €5.70 of which €3.42 is profit.

To cover the infrastructure you'd need to average 8 charges of 24kWh per day which would give you €27.36 against your requirement of €27.39 to fund the infrastructure.

I've not seen costs for a 150kW charger yet, but assuming the same ratio and number of charges, you'd be making €7.25 per 51kWh charging event, with the customer paying €12.08 per charge, at 8 charges a day so long as the infrastructure costs less than €170,000 over the 8 years, your breaking even.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

I'm not planning on taking your AC charger away, but at the same time I don't want to see suburban streets with 100s of trip hazards and ugly street furniture installed.

Since this is an in the future discussion its not unreasonable to expect that wireless charging will be where it is at.

So, instead of trip hazards and street furniture you have a completely invisible infrastructure wherever there are car park spaces.

It does of course require digging up the road which would be massively expensive but they are probably going to dig it up anyway over time so just factor it in when a particular street is earmarked for surface upgrade.

liamog

At least Elon agrees with me

https://electrek.co/2017/08/10/tesla-major-expansion-urban-charging-network-elon-musk/

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

Why would I drive to a multi story car park and park my car for 8.5 hours, when I could instead plug in whilst doing my shopping at the local supermarket?

As to the numbers, we can pull it all together.

RCN Report suggested a 50kW FCP cost €80,000 to install and operate. ESB claimed €50,000 for installation at a recent Dail committee. Chargers are infrastructure so can be expected to pay for themselves over an extended period of time (~approx. 8 years according to RCN report), at €80,000 that means a income of €27.39 is required per day to offset installation and operation without energy costs.

The SEAI are required to publish a report on Business Electricity Prices per kWh as part of the Price Directive so we can get a view on business wholesale rates.
report

A charger operator is going to be a large consumer of electricity, last time I calculated they would be in band IE (20-70 GWh). From the report we see that wholesale rates with all taxes would be 9.48c/kWh.

If an average charge on a 50kW FCP is 24kWh, the energy cost to the operator is €2.28. The RCN report suggested a 2.5x fee structure as sustainable, which gives a total customer charge of €5.70 of which €3.42 is profit.

To cover the infrastructure you'd need to average 8 charges of 24kWh per day which would give you €27.36 against your requirement of €27.39 to fund the infrastructure.

I've not seen costs for a 150kW charger yet, but assuming the same ratio and number of charges, you'd be making €7.25 per 51kWh charging event, with the customer paying €12.08 per charge, at 8 charges a day so long as the infrastructure costs less than €170,000 over the 8 years, your breaking even.

Why not offer both?
AC in carparks at less cost (due to less install cost and less power requirement so lower demand cost)than the higher speed DC chargers.
You then have a choice, to charge faster at an event, or to charge slower overnight.