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Cheated in Facebook competition

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    #242
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #243
    mahamageehad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    ....... wrote: »
    They said it was public likes.

    If its only visible to the page admin thought insights its not a public like.

    Lots of people questioned the result as they had taken screen shots at the time the comp ended.
    I must have missed the post where OP confirmed they said it was public likes. I thought so far all that was confirmed was that it that the public could vote, and winner would be be decided by most likes.

    In any case, unless the OP comes back with a response from the agency or company, I think this thread will go in circles.


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    #244
    fj4400
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭fj4400


    Judge rinder recently had a similar case and ruled the company running the competition we're wrong as they should have clearly put that in the terms and conditions


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    #245
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    fj4400 wrote: »
    Judge rinder recently had a similar case and ruled the company running the competition we're wrong as they should have clearly put that in the terms and conditions

    That's hardly relevant in law here . He's not even a judge, just an arbitrator.


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    #246
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mahamageehad wrote: »
    I must have missed the post where OP confirmed they said it was public likes. I thought so far all that was confirmed was that it that the public could vote, and winner would be be decided by most likes.

    In any case, unless the OP comes back with a response from the agency or company, I think this thread will go in circles.
    I suppose the argument lies in whether a 'public vote' in the context of a Facebook competition means the public can vote, or whether the vote will be public. I'd argue that either way their T&Cs aren't clear enough if votes the public can't see are to be included in the vote, as nearly everyone who would have taken part would have assumed the on-post likes (visible to the public) was the determining metric.

    You're right though, I don't think there's much more to be said until the company responds to my letter. I'll be happy to update the thread when I hear back from them.


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    #247
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    mahamageehad wrote: »

    In any case, unless the OP comes back with a response from the agency or company, I think this thread will go in circles.


    You may be right.




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    #248
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #249
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    He is an experienced arbitrator and a court would easily come to the same conclusion.

    But what court will take a case regarding a Facebook competition where entry is free and their ts and cs absolve them of any outcomes?


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    #250
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    But what court will take a case regarding a Facebook competition where entry is free and their ts and cs absolve them of any outcomes?

    A TV court?

    Edit> Well actually the ASAI will do just that if the OP makes a complaint to them about the competition.


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    #251
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    Op did it specifically say public likes on this post only?
    If not then there's no reason that they can't count likes on shared posts.
    I wonder if that's what they meant by private likes? Meaning likes you couldn't see but they can...


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    #252
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    Op did it specifically say public likes on this post only?
    If not then there's no reason that they can't count likes on shared posts.
    I wonder if that's what they meant by private likes? Meaning likes you couldn't see but they can...
    Specifically, it says
    - The entries (photographs) of the five weekly winners will be uploaded on the <company name> Facebook page on Tuesday the 8th of August and will face a public vote to determine the overall <competition name> competition winner.
    - The photograph with the most ‘likes’ by 8th August will win the overall prize of a KitchenAid Artisan 4.8L Stand Mixer*

    I would argue the simplest interpretation of those terms are that the photograph itself with the most likes should be determined the overall competition winner. Shares of the photograph aren't the photograph itself, they're posts linking to the photograph. I could write anything on a share of the original post that could result in people liking it other than them intending to 'vote' in the competition. Similarly, as was proven earlier, I could just share it lots of times on my timeline and like each share myself, and generate lots of extra 'likes' for myself. Afaik the page insights doesn't allow the page owners to see the shares and likes on shares themselves so there's no way to rule out this kind of abuse other than only using on-post likes.

    If their story about private likes was meant as explanation for the use of off-post likes then they either explained it very poorly or were being intentionally misleading. The exact phrasing they used was 'The insights section of facebook aggregates all votes, even by people who have their privacy settings set so that their activity on public pages is private.' That makes it sound as if they were counting likes on their public page which no one else can see, which isn't possible.


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    #253
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    my3cents wrote: »
    A TV court?

    Edit> Well actually the ASAI will do just that if the OP makes a complaint to them about the competition.

    Asai won't take this.

    This isn't a marketing campaign in the sense they govern.
    This a voluntary contest people can enter.
    Not a marketing campaign to promote their bramd(however it is likely to get their name out but that is done by people asking their friends to like their photos and not the company doing it themselves)


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    #254
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #255
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    Asai won't take this.

    This isn't a marketing campaign in the sense they govern.
    This a voluntary contest people can enter.
    Not a marketing campaign to promote their bramd(however it is likely to get their name out but that is don't by people asking their friends to like their photos and not the company doing it themselves)
    Actually, if you search the ASAI's database of past rulings there's a number of examples where they've adjudicated on competitions run on social media platforms, including Facebook.


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    #256
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #257
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I'm aware of that, but they can make a judgement about whether or not the competition was run fairly/in line with regulations. I've already said numerous times I'm not in this to get them to overturn their decision and declare me as winner, I just want honest answers about what they did and an apology if it's found they judged the competition wrongly or unfairly.


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    #258
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    For the OP

    If you shared the post and that got say 200 likes on that shared post and then you were told, sorry, whilst these are public likes and they are for your entry, that because the likes weren't on the actual company page but on your own page, that they are not being included - would you be happy about that?


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    #259
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    For the OP

    If you shared the post and that got say 200 likes on that shared post and then you were told, sorry, whilst these are public likes and they are for your entry, that because the likes weren't on the actual company page but on your own page, that they are not being included - would you be happy about that?
    Yes because the T&Cs never said likes on posts other than the photographs themselves would count. In fact I specifically told people not to like my shared posts in lieu of the actual photograph. And obviously I'm not the only contestant who was under this impression, because if you click into the 'shares' under some of the entries you can clearly see on some of the public shares that the other contestants and their friends were instructing people to click on the picture in the shared post to go to the original post and like it there.


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    #260
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I'm aware of that, but they can make a judgement about whether or not the competition was run fairly/in line with regulations. I've already said numerous times I'm not in this to get them to overturn their decision and declare me as winner, I just want honest answers about what they did and an apology if it's found they judged the competition wrongly or unfairly.

    But in all honesty op even IF the asai investigated (which i doubt they will and not sure they can if the company do not comply)and found it to have been judged unfairly as they have no powers the company are under no obligation to apologise other than if they want to protect their brand from a group of a couple of thousand which is hindsight i doubt they'll do.

    Not trying to put you off I'm just throwing in a realistic comment


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    #261
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    But in all honesty op even IF the asai investigated (which i doubt they will and not sure they can if the company do not comply)and found it to have been judged unfairly as they have no powers the company are under no obligation to apologise other than if they want to protect their brand from a group of a couple of thousand which is hindsight i doubt they'll do.

    Not trying to put you off I'm just throwing in a realistic comment
    Thanks for your input, I do understand that it may seem like a pointless fight to engage in but as it's a matter of principal to me at this stage I'm happy to keep arguing with them!


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    #262
    kathleen37
    Registered Users Posts: 813 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    Whilst ASAI don't have any powers, I'm sure it's not the aim of companies to get listed on their complaints bulletins.

    I'd be going to them if I'd not received a reasonable response by now...

    Complying with T&C's and transparency and all that...


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    #263
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kathleen37 wrote: »
    Whilst ASAI don't have any powers, I'm sure it's not the aim of companies to get listed on their complaints bulletins.

    I'd be going to them if I'd not received a reasonable response by now...

    Complying with T&C's and transparency and all that...
    I've referenced the ASAI's code regarding transparency in T&Cs for competitions in my letter and said I will be making a complaint if my questions are not answered satisfactorily so we'll see how they respond...


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    #264
    CeilingFly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭CeilingFly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes because the T&Cs never said likes on posts other than the photographs themselves would count. In fact I specifically told people not to like my shared posts in lieu of the actual photograph. And obviously I'm not the only contestant who was under this impression, because if you click into the 'shares' under some of the entries you can clearly see on some of the public shares that the other contestants and their friends were instructing people to click on the picture in the shared post to go to the original post and like it there.

    The T&C's said

    - The photograph with the most ‘likes’ by 8th August will win the overall prize of a KitchenAid Artisan 4.8L Stand Mixer*

    Most likes = Most likes.

    By their own generalistion of the Terms, they must include all likes of the post other wise they wuld not be adhering to their own terms. Only if they said "Likes on the post on the company page" could you claim to be the rightful winner.


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    #265
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #266
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #267
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CeilingFly wrote: »
    The T&C's said

    - The photograph with the most ‘likes’ by 8th August will win the overall prize of a KitchenAid Artisan 4.8L Stand Mixer*

    Most likes = Most likes.

    By their own generalistion of the Terms, they must include all likes of the post other wise they wuld not be adhering to their own terms. Only if they said "Likes on the post on the company page" could you claim to be the rightful winner.
    You've ignored my second point; everyone who took part was under the impression that only likes on the photograph itself would count. The photograph and posts sharing the photograph are not the same.


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    #268
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Specifically, it says
    - The entries (photographs) of the five weekly winners will be uploaded on the <company name> Facebook page on Tuesday the 8th of August and will face a public vote to determine the overall <competition name> competition winner.
    - The photograph with the most ‘likes’ by 8th August will win the overall prize of a KitchenAid Artisan 4.8L Stand Mixer*

    So the t&c's only say 'likes' it doesnt specify likes on the main post only or that likes on shared post won't be counted. That would seem that all likes are counted including ones on shared posts.

    I would think that you have nothing to argue about as it says their decision is final and they have said they won't enter into correspondence.
    You weren't able to see the likes from shared posts so you don't know what the totals actually were.


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    #269
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    So the t&c's only say 'likes' it doesnt specify likes on the main post only or that likes on shared post won't be counted. That would seem that all likes are counted including ones on shared posts.

    I would think that you have nothing to argue about as it says their decision is final and they have said they won't enter into correspondence.
    You weren't able to see the likes from shared posts so you don't know what the totals actually were.
    Yes, but, everyone who took part assumed only likes on the post counted. Literally nothing else makes sense, and counting likes on shares is massively vulnerable to abuse. If they wrote their T&Cs so poorly that everyone understood them to mean something different then that's their fault.

    I've already discussed this matter with a few people with legal backgrounds who've said that while I can't challenge them to overturn their decision I am within my rights to ask for proof the competition was adjudicated fairly, and they'd be foolish to refuse to enter into any correspondence on that issue.

    This whole argument about whether they used off-post likes to decide the winner is pointless atm because the company have not said that this is what they did; until they do this is all just speculation.


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    #270
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You've ignored my second point; everyone who took part was under the impression that only likes on the photograph itself would count. The photograph and posts sharing the photograph are not the same.

    While this is all becoming a boring circular argument, which can have no clear outcome here, how can you say what impression "everyone who took part" had?


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    #271
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hazel Angry Grommet wrote: »
    While this is all becoming a boring circular argument, which can have no clear outcome here, how can you say what impression "everyone who took part" had?
    I said a few posts ago that if you click on the 'shares' tab under the other competition entries you can see some of the shares which have been made public. Many of these include written instructions from the contestant or their friend instructing people to 'click the picture and like it' rather than on the posts themselves (I gave the same instructions on my shares).


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